(WAMC) What are my chances for matching into Dermatology?

[DermViser]

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Just recently started considering derm. Any thoughts? My ideal path would be Derm/IM, so if anyone has any insight into that path, I'd love to know. I don't know if it's more or less competitive than derm alone, so some insight on that would also be appreciated.

Low tier MD school, 3rd year
Step 1: 248
Pre-clinicals: 1/3 C, ~2/3 B (my school uses letter grades still, ABCF)
Clinicals: Currently, 2 A's (equivalent to honors) (Surgery and Medicine), 1 probable B and possible A (3rd year EM elective).
Research: 1 publication in cardiology, several poster presentations in emergency medicine, anticipated publication in ID/HIV (Was initially considering EM). Anticipate doing derm electives and research if I have any shot at all.
Other (though I assume no one cares): Opened a free primary care clinic through my school.

Thoughts? Telling me I'm not competitive, while not desirable, would at least end the existential crisis, while telling me I am would make me work harder.

Where do you rank in your class?

Doesn't have to be exact - just segment of the class -- top 10, 15, 25%, whatever.

Edit: and do you have a home derm program?

 

[tantacles]

Where do you rank in your class?

Doesn't have to be exact - just segment of the class -- top 10, 15, 25%, whatever.

Edit: and do you have a home derm program?

Probably top 50% at this moment. My school doesn't provide exact ranks, I don't believe. If I get all honors in clerkships, I'm likely to end up at least in the top 30%; our school counts clinicals for double of pre-clinicals' worth.

Also, no home derm program, unfortunately.

 

[PatsyStone]

Just recently started considering derm. Any thoughts? My ideal path would be Derm/IM

So, it seems like these programs are continuing to disappear. LSU has an accredited program, but it looks like it hasn't had a new IM/derm spot in several years. Wisconsin also has a program, but they are ending their program, and in the future, all recruited spots will be derm-only

 

[asmallchild]

Just recently started considering derm. Any thoughts? My ideal path would be Derm/IM, so if anyone has any insight into that path, I'd love to know. I don't know if it's more or less competitive than derm alone, so some insight on that would also be appreciated.

Low tier MD school, 3rd year
Step 1: 248
Pre-clinicals: 1/3 C, ~2/3 B (my school uses letter grades still, ABCF)
Clinicals: Currently, 2 A's (equivalent to honors) (Surgery and Medicine), 1 probable B and possible A (3rd year EM elective).
Research: 1 publication in cardiology, several poster presentations in emergency medicine, anticipated publication in ID/HIV (Was initially considering EM). Anticipate doing derm electives and research if I have any shot at all.
Other (though I assume no one cares): Opened a free primary care clinic through my school.

Thoughts? Telling me I'm not competitive, while not desirable, would at least end the existential crisis, while telling me I am would make me work harder.

I think you definitely have a shot. Derm/IM unfortunately is just as competitive as derm alone (and if you search around on the forums here, is typically viewed as a waste over a traditional derm path in most cases)

Your Step 1 score should get your past most if not all filters

Your clinical grades thus far are excellent (and you've honored the 2 most important rotations). I think all you would need at this point is some derm research, some derm rotations (and recommendation letters), and to apply broadly and you should have an excellent shot

 

[tantacles]

I think you definitely have a shot. Derm/IM unfortunately is just as competitive as derm alone (and if you search around on the forums here, is typically viewed as a waste over a traditional derm path in most cases)

Your Step 1 score should get your past most if not all filters

Your clinical grades thus far are excellent (and you've honored the 2 most important rotations). I think all you would need at this point is some derm research, some derm rotations (and recommendation letters), and to apply broadly and you should have an excellent shot

I hear on derm / IM being a waste, but I have (or at least I think I do) a compelling reason for wanting to take that particular path. Derm clinically is fascinating and I absolutely want to be able to practice it, but I also want to be an educator. I can't imagine a future where I don't get to interact with a wide variety of students, from MS1s to residents. I'd like to be able to teach medicine and practice dermatology, and while derm alone would likely prepare me for a lot of those challenges, I feel that medicine might prepare me better.

Any insight? I'm just not sure what I should do at this point, though based on your suggestions, I should just continue to honor every single rotation I can (which will likely be all of them) and get some aways with some potential case reports.

 

[PatsyStone]

I can't imagine a future where I don't get to interact with a wide variety of students, from MS1s to residents. I'd like to be able to teach medicine and practice dermatology, and while derm alone would likely prepare me for a lot of those challenges, I feel that medicine might prepare me better.

Any insight? I'm just not sure what I should do at this point, though based on your suggestions, I should just continue to honor every single rotation I can (which will likely be all of them) and get some aways with some potential case reports.

FYI, I'm an M4

1. You can interact with med students and residents as a dermatologist: you can still give lectures, work on curriculum committees, and mentor students

2. Doing an extra year-and-a-half extra of treating AKI, COPD exacerbations, sickle cell crises, and heart failure is not going to magically make you a better dermatologist. It doesn't really matter what your training is, your ability to be an educator and leader is based on your attitude, demeanor, and most importantly, clinical experience.

3. Not to make you neurotic, but get a sense of how many people in your class are applying for derm, and how you compare. I've met a lot of people who state that the number of derm applicants at their schools are at an all time high (even at state schools where the number of med students has NOT increased over the past few years). Point is, if you're the only applicant or the top applicant, things may be easy, but if there are 5 other people with better research/scores/AOA, it will be more difficult.

 

[tantacles]

FYI, I'm an M4

1. You can interact with med students and residents as a dermatologist: you can still give lectures, work on curriculum committees, and mentor students

2. Doing an extra year-and-a-half extra of treating AKI, COPD exacerbations, sickle cell crises, and heart failure is not going to magically make you a better dermatologist. It doesn't really matter what your training is, your ability to be an educator and leader is based on your attitude, demeanor, and most importantly, clinical experience.

3. Not to make you neurotic, but get a sense of how many people in your class are applying for derm, and how you compare. I've met a lot of people who state that the number of derm applicants at their schools are at an all time high (even at state schools where the number of med students has NOT increased over the past few years). Point is, if you're the only applicant or the top applicant, things may be easy, but if there are 5 other people with better research/scores/AOA, it will be more difficult.

I definitely know I can be involved in education as only a dermatologist; I guess I just need to think about how much I value medicine on its own. I know that it's a complicated decision, and I hear all of your points. They're good ones, and I'll sleep on them. I often come around to logic after a day or two.

As far as my class goes, I'll look into that. That might be something I have to look into next year, though, as many haven't picked out specialties. As an added uncertainty, barring catastrophe, I will almost definitely be couples matching (with someone who has a 257 on step 1 and is also honoring everything), so that might play into my choices as well, though he's likely to pick peds, neuro, or IM, which shouldn't be at all limiting for someone with his step 1 score and grades.

It's all very confusing, and I know I'll ultimately navigate it all fine, but I just wish everything weren't so complicated.

 

[asmallchild]

I hear on derm / IM being a waste, but I have (or at least I think I do) a compelling reason for wanting to take that particular path. Derm clinically is fascinating and I absolutely want to be able to practice it, but I also want to be an educator. I can't imagine a future where I don't get to interact with a wide variety of students, from MS1s to residents. I'd like to be able to teach medicine and practice dermatology, and while derm alone would likely prepare me for a lot of those challenges, I feel that medicine might prepare me better.

Any insight? I'm just not sure what I should do at this point, though based on your suggestions, I should just continue to honor every single rotation I can (which will likely be all of them) and get some aways with some potential case reports.

I agree with the above poster that the IM component of derm/IM training isn't likely to make you any better of an academician. I really think the only time IM training is going to help is if you want to be in academics and your passion is in consult dermatology (particularly if you're going to be in a hospital that will give you the chance to follow 15 to 20+ derm consult patients daily, or even have an impatient dermatology unit)

The vast majority of dermatologists recoil at that thought and it's way derm/IM appeals to so few of us. But if that's what floats your boat, then derm/IM makes a bit more sense

In terms of how to proceed, that's basically it. Honor everything else, do 2-3 away rotation, try for research that's a little more substantial than case reports, tack on a couple case reports, apply broadly, and then sit back and enjoy the ride 🙂

I agree with the poster above that the number of people applying your year will impact your chances. In the end, it's probably healthiest not to pay too much attention. You can drive yourself crazy that way. If you decide to do derm, consider yourself committed and just focus on being the best possible applicant you can be (best advice I received from a resident when I was driving myself crazy on the interview trail)

 

[tantacles]

I agree with the above poster that the IM component of derm/IM training isn't likely to make you any better of an academician. I really think the only time IM training is going to help is if you want to be in academics and your passion is in consult dermatology (particularly if you're going to be in a hospital that will give you the chance to follow 15 to 20+ derm consult patients daily, or even have an impatient dermatology unit)

The vast majority of dermatologists recoil at that thought and it's way derm/IM appeals to so few of us. But if that's what floats your boat, then derm/IM makes a bit more sense

In terms of how to proceed, that's basically it. Honor everything else, do 2-3 away rotation, try for research that's a little more substantial than case reports, tack on a couple case reports, apply broadly, and then sit back and enjoy the ride 🙂

I agree with the poster above that the number of people applying your year will impact your chances. In the end, it's probably healthiest not to pay too much attention. You can drive yourself crazy that way. If you decide to do derm, consider yourself committed and just focus on being the best possible applicant you can be (best advice I received from a resident when I was driving myself crazy on the interview trail)

I will do my best to follow this to the letter. Since my home institution has no derm program, I think I'm going go to my site directors who loved having me around. I have a couple who explicitly asked me to return when I'd made final decisions, and I'm hoping that they'll have some insight.

I'll keep you all posted. Thanks again.

 

[DermViser]

Probably top 50% at this moment. My school doesn't provide exact ranks, I don't believe. If I get all honors in clerkships, I'm likely to end up at least in the top 30%; our school counts clinicals for double of pre-clinicals' worth.

Also, no home derm program, unfortunately.

I would do a Derm research year after MS-3, esp. since you don't have a home derm residency program.

Edit: Sorry, I thought I posted this earlier.

 

[DermViser]

So, it seems like these programs are continuing to disappear. LSU has an accredited program, but it looks like it hasn't had a new IM/derm spot in several years. Wisconsin also has a program, but they are ending their program, and in the future, all recruited spots will be derm-only

Not surprised. Their utility overall is limited and in an era of cost cutting and using up more Medicare dollars, it's just better to make them straight Derm programs. This isn't the 60s-70s where people can do double even triple residencies.

 

[tantacles]

I would do a Derm research year after MS-3, esp. since you don't have a home derm residency program.

Edit: Sorry, I thought I posted this earlier.

I wish that were feasible. Unfortunately, can't do it, but I understand that I'll probably need a backup specialty, and I'll plan accordingly.

 

[DermViser]

I wish that were feasible. Unfortunately, can't do it, but I understand that I'll probably need a backup specialty, and I'll plan accordingly.

I would then continue as you're doing trying to Honor every rotation in 3rd year. Do some derm audition electives (not top tier - as those are a stretch for anyone) and try to get either reviews or case reports out of it, maybe an original manuscript if you can tag onto a working paper or that is quick. Couples matching tends to throw an additional wrench just bc, as you're probably aware, you can't be as geographically choosy when it comes to Derm. You go where you can match.

 

[tantacles]

I would then continue as you're doing trying to Honor every rotation in 3rd year. Do some derm audition electives (not top tier - as those are a stretch for anyone) and try to get either reviews or case reports out of it, maybe an original manuscript if you can tag onto a working paper or that is quick. Couples matching tends to throw an additional wrench just bc, as you're probably aware, you can't be as geographically choosy when it comes to Derm. You go where you can match.

All advice I'm willing to take. No problem honoring everything as standardized tests aren't an issue. I'm getting set up with derm people now as I have contacts from EM and medicine rotations at our county hospitals that I'm working with, and they are receptive to setting me up with some derm people for lit reviews / case reports.

All of your advice is appreciated, and I'll do what's feasible without being aggressive.

 

[MedGirl1991]

Considering Dermatology. I am at a Low tier MD school with no home program.

MS III
Step 1: 249
Clinical Rotations: Probably all High Pass (our school is pretty stingy, I think). Probably not AOA.
Research: One basic science paper. A derm and radiology poster. 2 manuscripts pending (who knows if they will get published).

I'm pretty sure I should take a year off for research, but I would really appreciate the advice. Also, if I take a year off any ideas as to where I could go that would enable me to make solid contacts + publications?

 

[ur2l8]

3rd year considering dermatology.

Step 1: 270-275; top 5% of class
Research: Meh. I have 1 basic science pathology publication from summer after M1. Presented that poster at school symposium.
Rotations: Honored all so far
Volunteer: Just basic things
Leadership: I have no leadership...Will this hurt? I'm in a class of 200. I do write for the class semesterly magazine.

Thoughts? Everything just seems so ridiculously competitive. I'm not the type to take on a bunch of positions which is why I don't really have any leadership.

 

[Dral]

3rd year considering dermatology.

Step 1: 270-275; top 5% of class
Research: Meh. I have 1 basic science pathology publication from summer after M1. Presented that poster at school symposium.
Rotations: Honored all so far
Volunteer: Just basic things
Leadership: I have no leadership...Will this hurt? I'm in a class of 200. I do write for the class semesterly magazine.

Thoughts? Everything just seems so ridiculously competitive. I'm not the type to take on a bunch of positions which is why I don't really have any leadership.

Looks good so far. Ramp up the research starting now. Try to find something you are passionate about and do it...in terms of research and leadership/activity. People would generally rather see you do one or two things full force opposed to a bunch of things where you just scratch the surface...quality over quantity.

 

[Dral]

Considering Dermatology. I am at a Low tier MD school with no home program.

MS III
Step 1: 249
Clinical Rotations: Probably all High Pass (our school is pretty stingy, I think). Probably not AOA.
Research: One basic science paper. A derm and radiology poster. 2 manuscripts pending (who knows if they will get published).

I'm pretty sure I should take a year off for research, but I would really appreciate the advice. Also, if I take a year off any ideas as to where I could go that would enable me to make solid contacts + publications? .

I hate telling people to take the extra year, but I also hate to see people have to reapply. No home program is the hill you have to climb. You need to find Derms who will go to bat for you. If you can do that through always, then great. If not, the year may benefit you.

 

[cnfz]

I'm trying to figure out if taking a research year would significantly increase my chances. Maybe this is a dumb question.. My preference is to return to California but will be applying broadly anyways.

MS3 at an unranked MD school (no home department)
Step 1: 250-255
Pre-clinicals: 3 B's, the rest A's
Rotations: 1 B and the rest A's so far, still have a few more rotations to go
Research: 1 abstract, 1 school poster presentation, 2nd author paper, 1 case report, all non-derm

I'm planning to start doing derm research after the New Year since my rotations will ease up a bit. Would that be enough time to be moderately productive?

 

[asmallchild]

Considering Dermatology. I am at a Low tier MD school with no home program.

MS III
Step 1: 249
Clinical Rotations: Probably all High Pass (our school is pretty stingy, I think). Probably not AOA.
Research: One basic science paper. A derm and radiology poster. 2 manuscripts pending (who knows if they will get published).

I'm pretty sure I should take a year off for research, but I would really appreciate the advice. Also, if I take a year off any ideas as to where I could go that would enable me to make solid contacts + publications? .

I agree. I don't think you necessarily need to take the year off but given your medical school, lack of home program, and lack of AOA, the research year would help immensely.

I always recommend asking around (perhaps the MS4's at your school who are applying for derm this year) so see where they may have done research. You want to pick a place that has a history of giving their research fellow plenty of publication opportunities as well as a good history of matching their research fellow (either with themselves or at another program)

 

[asmallchild]

3rd year considering dermatology.

Step 1: 270-275; top 5% of class
Research: Meh. I have 1 basic science pathology publication from summer after M1. Presented that poster at school symposium.
Rotations: Honored all so far
Volunteer: Just basic things
Leadership: I have no leadership...Will this hurt? I'm in a class of 200. I do write for the class semesterly magazine.

Thoughts? Everything just seems so ridiculously competitive. I'm not the type to take on a bunch of positions which is why I don't really have any leadership.

You've set yourself up as well as possible. Fortunately research counts for a lot more than "leadership" roles. I would be sure to get as much dermatology research between now and application time, apply broadly, and you should be fine

 

[asmallchild]

I'm trying to figure out if taking a research year would significantly increase my chances. Maybe this is a dumb question.. My preference is to return to California but will be applying broadly anyways.

MS3 at an unranked MD school (no home department)
Step 1: 250-255
Pre-clinicals: 3 B's, the rest A's
Rotations: 1 B and the rest A's so far, still have a few more rotations to go
Research: 1 abstract, 1 school poster presentation, 2nd author paper, 1 case report, all non-derm

I'm planning to start doing derm research after the New Year since my rotations will ease up a bit. Would that be enough time to be moderately productive?

Derm research as a MS3 is going to be helpful but unlikely to be as productive as actually taking the year off (probably more in the way of case reports)

Particularly if you want to end up in California, I would recommend taking the year off at a research program based in California. Again, the standard caveat applies: you want to pick a place that has a defined role for you, that has produced multiple publications for their research fellows before, and has successfully matched most if not all of their research fellows.

 

[leflyingolive]

edited to remove information...thanks all

 

[asmallchild]

So it's been a few months since my last post and am posting again with some updated stats and another question...

I currently go to a upper-mid tier medical school with a home derm department and currently taking a year off to do dermatology research (basic science) in southern California between MS3 and MS4
Step 1: 245
Step 2 CK: 261
Publications: 1st author JID paper (from previous year off prior to medical school when I luckily worked in a dermatology department), 1st author basic science other non-derm paper from undergrad, 2 other basic science papers as non-first author (1 derm, 1 non derm), 2 derm book chapters 1st author, anticipating 1 SID oral presentation/abstract + potential additional basic science papers + also working on some side clinical projects with hopes for publication
Grades: Honors in one clerkship, High Pass in all other clerkships

Can anyone give me any insight into the tier of program I should anticipate receiving interviews at? I know that my numbers are around average but I'm hoping the year off will help me out in this regard with connections and additional publications, am also thinking of what back-up plans I should have in place in case the upcoming match doesn't turn out like I hope...it seems like the typical route is match into a good preliminary program and kind of go into a few various paths from there? I've heard double applying can be a bit tricky and I'm pretty set on doing derm at the moment. Thanks in advance for all of your helpful advice.

I think you should be fine: good pedigree medical school, STep 1 should get you past most if not all filters, publications look good, and of course, you took the year off

I wouldn't look at tiers though. I encourage everyone to apply broadly and accept every interview you get unless you truly cannot envision living there for 3 years. With everything you've done thus far, I think you should be fine as long as you apply broadly. I personally wouldn't risk double applying given everything you've done thus far to set yourself up (well) for derm.

 

[ur2l8]

You've set yourself up as well as possible. Fortunately research counts for a lot more than "leadership" roles. I would be sure to get as much dermatology research between now and application time, apply broadly, and you should be fine

Looks good so far. Ramp up the research starting now. Try to find something you are passionate about and do it...in terms of research and leadership/activity. People would generally rather see you do one or two things full force opposed to a bunch of things where you just scratch the surface...quality over quantity.

Thanks for the replies. I don't really know what I was thinking when I wrote that, must have been "multi-tasking"--but my pub is NOT basic science pathology; it's in clinical anesthesiology/physiology research. Lol.

Anyway, does that change the game a bit? Do you think I *definitely* need a research year?

 

[asmallchild]

Thanks for the replies. I don't really know what I was thinking when I wrote that, must have been "multi-tasking"--but my pub is NOT basic science pathology; it's in clinical anesthesiology/physiology research. Lol.

Anyway, does that change the game a bit? Do you think I *definitely* need a research year?

Derm research is always better but you still have time now to get some under your belt

You don't definitely need the research year but if you should choose to pursue it, that should be as close to a guaranteed match as you can get in dermatology (again, assuming the research year is at a place that matches their fellows, that you do good work, that you get along with the faculty, that you interview well, that you rotate well, etc)

If you choose to skip the research year, you are still in good shape, just add as much derm research as possible between now and application time (you obviously have a very good handle on the grades game. See if you can reach out to your department to see if they can give you some case report write ups. If you can put together something more meaningful than a case report over the next 6+ months, even better)

 

[Vikingwizardguy]

Hi all,

I'm a long time member of SDN but I rarely post. I am an MS3 student at a state medical school in the Northeast which has a home derm program. I am an MSTP student (PhD in Neuroscience in 2014). Interest in derm is actually quite recent, primarily based on my experience in the clinic. Prior to that I was largely undecided.

Stats:
Step 1 (in 2010): 259
Pre-clinical: All honors except for one high pass
Clinical: All high pass thus far (the four year gap hit me harder than I thought haha). As per one of the deans, I should be in the second quartile of the class, she is unaware of my interest in dermatology at this point in time and also based this purely on clinical grades. That would bump me out of AOA contention, though.
Publications/awards: Three first author basic-science papers (one paper in Nature), several non-first author pubs, one textbook chapter, a very long list of abstracts/posters, four international attended conferences, one selected symposium talk at a conference, recipient of a three year NRSA pre-doctoral fellowship award from the NIH.

Two questions: Where do I stand and what should I do next? My ideal would be any derm program in the NYC area but anywhere in the northeast would also be great (all of my family is in NY, fiance is already tenured at her job in NYC). I have it set up so that I can take a four week derm elective this upcoming February. I would like to do at least two away electives in Derm this upcoming summer/fall somewhere in NYC. Is that a good or bad idea, I have fears based on rumors saying aways can hurt an application? As you can see, my research work, while extensive, is a bit limited in scope and not really involved in derm. I was hoping that my high impact publications may overshadow that. Should I be trying to fit in maybe a derm case report or something? I really am not heavily involved with any of the derm faculty primarily because the interest is so recent. Just feel like even though on paper I come off strong, I'm missing a lot of intangibles. Any help on this would be great, thank you all.

 

[dermie1985]

Hi all,

I'm a long time member of SDN but I rarely post. I am an MS3 student at a state medical school in the Northeast which has a home derm program. I am an MSTP student (PhD in Neuroscience in 2014). Interest in derm is actually quite recent, primarily based on my experience in the clinic. Prior to that I was largely undecided.

Stats:
Step 1 (in 2010): 259
Pre-clinical: All honors except for one high pass
Clinical: All high pass thus far (the four year gap hit me harder than I thought haha). As per one of the deans, I should be in the second quartile of the class, she is unaware of my interest in dermatology at this point in time and also based this purely on clinical grades. That would bump me out of AOA contention, though.
Publications/awards: Three first author basic-science papers (one paper in Nature), several non-first author pubs, one textbook chapter, a very long list of abstracts/posters, four international attended conferences, one selected symposium talk at a conference, recipient of a three year NRSA pre-doctoral fellowship award from the NIH.

Two questions: Where do I stand and what should I do next? My ideal would be any derm program in the NYC area but anywhere in the northeast would also be great (all of my family is in NY, fiance is already tenured at her job in NYC). I have it set up so that I can take a four week derm elective this upcoming February. I would like to do at least two away electives in Derm this upcoming summer/fall somewhere in NYC. Is that a good or bad idea, I have fears based on rumors saying aways can hurt an application? As you can see, my research work, while extensive, is a bit limited in scope and not really involved in derm. I was hoping that my high impact publications may overshadow that. Should I be trying to fit in maybe a derm case report or something? I really am not heavily involved with any of the derm faculty primarily because the interest is so recent. Just feel like even though on paper I come off strong, I'm missing a lot of intangibles. Any help on this would be great, thank you all.

Maybe some of the derm attendings can comment better than me (I'm just a current applicant)...but your Step 1 (which is well above average in derm) and pre-clinical grades are great. All high pass clinical grades might hurt someone who isn't MD/PhD, but programs are going to look at your application a little differently because you're an MSTP student. I don't think they'll care that your research wasn't derm...there are plenty of MSTP candidates who don't find their actual clinical interests until they enter back into their rotations once they finish their PhD. Are you thinking about 2+2 programs? Or, do you just want to a be a clinician?

I certainly wouldn't apply to only schools in NYC (you'd want to apply broadly across the entire United States, i.e. 60+ programs...there are lots of people from NYC in your same personal situation and residency programs honestly just want the best candidates). Aways at the other NYC programs will certainly help if you think you'd be able to impress. If you're not someone who shines on 2 or 4-week clinical rotations, sometimes they can hurt more than they help. I'd look into which programs in NYC typically offer interviews to and/or actually match people who rotate at their institution. If you want to break out of the Northeast into the possibility of matching in other areas (California, etc.) I'd definitely consider doing aways there, as interviews can be very regional. NYC is a high demand city with only limited dermatology spots, so this might not be a bad idea.

 

[asmallchild]

Hi all,

I'm a long time member of SDN but I rarely post. I am an MS3 student at a state medical school in the Northeast which has a home derm program. I am an MSTP student (PhD in Neuroscience in 2014). Interest in derm is actually quite recent, primarily based on my experience in the clinic. Prior to that I was largely undecided.

Stats:
Step 1 (in 2010): 259
Pre-clinical: All honors except for one high pass
Clinical: All high pass thus far (the four year gap hit me harder than I thought haha). As per one of the deans, I should be in the second quartile of the class, she is unaware of my interest in dermatology at this point in time and also based this purely on clinical grades. That would bump me out of AOA contention, though.
Publications/awards: Three first author basic-science papers (one paper in Nature), several non-first author pubs, one textbook chapter, a very long list of abstracts/posters, four international attended conferences, one selected symposium talk at a conference, recipient of a three year NRSA pre-doctoral fellowship award from the NIH.

Two questions: Where do I stand and what should I do next? My ideal would be any derm program in the NYC area but anywhere in the northeast would also be great (all of my family is in NY, fiance is already tenured at her job in NYC). I have it set up so that I can take a four week derm elective this upcoming February. I would like to do at least two away electives in Derm this upcoming summer/fall somewhere in NYC. Is that a good or bad idea, I have fears based on rumors saying aways can hurt an application? As you can see, my research work, while extensive, is a bit limited in scope and not really involved in derm. I was hoping that my high impact publications may overshadow that. Should I be trying to fit in maybe a derm case report or something? I really am not heavily involved with any of the derm faculty primarily because the interest is so recent. Just feel like even though on paper I come off strong, I'm missing a lot of intangibles. Any help on this would be great, thank you all.

I think you should also be in good shape. MD/PhD applicants are usually very heavily favored particularly at big academic programs (although I'm not sure if it changes things if your PhD is in something not related to dermatology)

That being said, your Step 1 score and grades all look above average. AOA would be nice. I would work on some derm-specific research as well. I agree with posts above urging you to apply broadly. NYC in particular is a tough place to crack if you don't have any contacts. I would definitely do as many away rotations there as possible (and pick a place with a history of interviewing/matching their rotators. I know from experience there are a handful that don't extend that courtesy to their rotators). I would also recommend fitting in some derm research and if you really have your heart set on matching in NY, perhaps taking a year to do research in NYC.

 

[Dral]

I'm at a NYC program. I did an away at a different NYC program, and I think it helped me break into the area. We have monthly and other Derm meetings for the NYC area...people from different programs all know each other. A good word about a candidate from one attending to another (when the attendings know each other personally) holds a lot of weight, imo.

 

[Vikingwizardguy]

Thank you all so much, some great practical advice in there. While my heart is definitely set on the NYC are the greater area, I will absolutely apply broadly, thanks for that.

I commonly see the advice to do aways at programs known to give interviews to rotators...but how does one find that information out? Any way other than word of mouth? I have a meeting set up with the PD at my home institution so I'm hoping she could give some detailed insight on that but is there any other way? Thanks again everyone.

 

[asmallchild]

Thank you all so much, some great practical advice in there. While my heart is definitely set on the NYC are the greater area, I will absolutely apply broadly, thanks for that.

I commonly see the advice to do aways at programs known to give interviews to rotators...but how does one find that information out? Any way other than word of mouth? I have a meeting set up with the PD at my home institution so I'm hoping she could give some detailed insight on that but is there any other way? Thanks again everyone.

Unfortunately that's tricky. I find the best way to find this out is to speak with someone at your school who has recently been through the application or match process (4th years, recently graduated 4th years)

You can always ask the program coordinator for contact information for prior rotators to glean more information about the rotation if necessary.

And finally, speaking with your program director or faculty (again, you'll want a faculty member closer or involved with the application process, not necessarily the highest ranking faculty member) can be helpful at times too.

 

[PatsyStone]

Unfortunately that's tricky. I find the best way to find this out is to speak with someone at your school who has recently been through the application or match process (4th years, recently graduated 4th years)

You can always ask the program coordinator for contact information for prior rotators to glean more information about the rotation if necessary.

And finally, speaking with your program director or faculty (again, you'll want a faculty member closer or involved with the application process, not necessarily the highest ranking faculty member) can be helpful at times too.

People can also continue to update their away rotation experiences in the GoogleDoc we are using for the 2014-2015 interview season

 

[asmallchild]

People can also continue to update their away rotation experiences in the GoogleDoc we are using for the 2014-2015 interview season

Even better 🙂

 

[asmallchild]

Hi all,
MS3 here, have had no idea what I want to go into, realizing the specialty choice is coming soon and might be interested in derm.

Step 1: 271
Top 25 US MD school
Clinical - All honors so far
Preclinical - pass/fail, passed everything
Ranking - school doesn't rank until end of 3rd year
Research - One hem/onc project underway, currently working on submitting an abstract to a large conference, but nothing else
Volunteer - basically nothing

So basically strong step 1 and clinical grades but lacking in other departments. I'm most interested in programs in the midwest. Thoughts?

You should be fine. Step 1 score and school pedigree are obviously phenomenal. Volunteering is not really looked at too much in the derm application process. What you are going to need is research. I would start by reaching out to your home department to see if there are any projects you can assist on. You'll also find that away rotations fill quickly and you may even want to start looking into rotations slots at the beginning of 4th year. Add in some research, apply broadly and you should be fine.

 

[MilkIsGood]

I've been wanting to do derm since 1st year, but my 3rd yr grades haven't been great.
Top 15 US News school
Step 1: low 250s
Clinical grades: Honors in peds, HP ob/gyn, HP in IM (realistically, probably HP the rest of 3rd year).
Won't be AOA with my grades.
Research: 2 derm publications (1 first author), 1 derm case report accepted, 1 oral presentation
Other ECs: none

At this point, not sure if I should be thinking of derm aways or focusing on a different specialty.

 

[Dral]

You're fine. Just honor your Derm rotations, focus on research, and do an away or two.

 

[Caldreamer678]

Hello friends.

Hopeful Derm candidate here. I've always been interested in Derm and have been hearing some varying things about my candidacy. Some individuals have said I should have no problems matching into derm, while others have expressed concern that I may not match at all. I've come here for honest opinions.

Top 10 Medical School
Step 1 - 248
Step 2 - Not taken
Clinical: Mostly HP/couple H
Research: 2 papers - 1st auth/2nd auth (non-derm)
Volunteering: various activities throughout MS1/MS2

I am from California and my hopes are to do a dermatology residency in California. I have a strong preference for an academic institution.

It would be very valuable for me to hear honest input. I'm not sure I would meet Step 1 cutoffs, and I don't anticipate getting AOA at my institution. As a result, I've become increasingly concerned that there is a strong likelihood that I would not match into a dermatology residency. Is the only way for me to buff up my application to take step 2 early with the hopes of breaking a 270?

 

[FIREitUP]

Hello friends.

Hopeful Derm candidate here. I've always been interested in Derm and have been hearing some varying things about my candidacy. Some individuals have said I should have no problems matching into derm, while others have expressed concern that I may not match at all. I've come here for honest opinions.

Top 10 Medical School
Step 1 - 248
Step 2 - Not taken
Clinical: Mostly HP/couple H
Research: 2 papers - 1st auth/2nd auth (non-derm)
Volunteering: numerous activities throughout MS1/MS2

I am from California and my hopes are to do a dermatology in California. I have a strong preference for an academic institution.

It would be very valuable for me to hear honest input. I'm not sure I would meet Step 1 cutoffs, and I don't anticipate getting AOA at my institution. As a result, I've become increasingly concerned that there is a strong likelihood that I would not match into a dermatology residency. Is the only way for me to buff up my application to take step 2 early with the hopes of breaking a 270?

hey, i haven't gone through the process yet, but from what I've read here is that California is such a competitive area that there are no guarantees. Your numbers are average and being at a top 10 school helps a lot, but to increase your chances of getting into a Cali program doing a year of research in California with someone who is a big name would really help solidify your chances. Also, regarding Step 1 cutoffs, I think you should meet them (unless there are some with 250 as a cutoff), and as far as I have heard, Step 2 is not something that programs generally care too much about.

 

[Caldreamer678]

Is it a recommendation to avoid taking step 2 even if i am doing a year of research?

 

[PatsyStone]

Is it a recommendation to avoid taking step 2 even if i am doing a year of research?

I had some time between when I finished third year and when I started my research year, so I took my Step 2's. I'm really glad I did it because now as a fourth year, I've forgotten a lot of material, and it would have been a lot more painful to study for Step 2.

 

[Caldreamer678]

I had some time between when I finished third year and when I started my research year, so I took my Step 2's. I'm really glad I did it because now as a fourth year, I've forgotten a lot of material, and it would have been a lot more painful to study for Step 2.

Thanks for the reply. That's a really good point and something I'll definitely keep in mind.

 

[asmallchild]

I've been wanting to do derm since 1st year, but my 3rd yr grades haven't been great.
Top 15 US News school
Step 1: low 250s
Clinical grades: Honors in peds, HP ob/gyn, HP in IM (realistically, probably HP the rest of 3rd year).
Won't be AOA with my grades.
Research: 2 derm publications (1 first author), 1 derm case report accepted, 1 oral presentation
Other ECs: none

At this point, not sure if I should be thinking of derm aways or focusing on a different specialty.

I had the same issue, apply broadly, do aways, and if there is any identifiable cause for your lower 3rd year grades, be sure they're fixed before your aways

 

[asmallchild]

Hello friends.

Hopeful Derm candidate here. I've always been interested in Derm and have been hearing some varying things about my candidacy. Some individuals have said I should have no problems matching into derm, while others have expressed concern that I may not match at all. I've come here for honest opinions.

Top 10 Medical School
Step 1 - 248
Step 2 - Not taken
Clinical: Mostly HP/couple H
Research: 2 papers - 1st auth/2nd auth (non-derm)
Volunteering: various activities throughout MS1/MS2

I am from California and my hopes are to do a dermatology residency in California. I have a strong preference for an academic institution.

It would be very valuable for me to hear honest input. I'm not sure I would meet Step 1 cutoffs, and I don't anticipate getting AOA at my institution. As a result, I've become increasingly concerned that there is a strong likelihood that I would not match into a dermatology residency. Is the only way for me to buff up my application to take step 2 early with the hopes of breaking a 270?

Your Step 1 score should get you past most if not all filters

The problem is with the region. Derm is hard enough and to hone in on California will only make it trickier. I would be sure to apply broadly or if your heart is really set on California, I would consider taking a year off to do research at a program in California.

A higher score for Step 2 is unlikely to change your application profile too much.

 

[kexy]

Hi all, I am late in MS3 and seriously starting to consider derm. I was hoping I would fall in love with something less competitive, but that hasn't happened yet, so here I am.

I saw the post by 0921am above with good numbers and little research. My pedigree is not as impressive and I specifically want to know if I need to take a year off for research. 3rd year ends in April; if I were to intensely pursue research between April and September, and if just 1 project led to a publication, could that be enough? To show a real commitment to research, would I need to take a year off and aim for multiple publications? I don't really want to take a year off, but if it's necessary to be competitive, I would.

Middle of the road MD school
Preclinical: strict P/F, I have all P's and letters of distinction in some/most classes
Step 1: 266
Clinical: H's in the 4 of 6 rotations I've completed so far (IM, Surg, Peds, Family)
Step 2: TBD
EC's/honors: typical service stuff, Gold Humanism member, am AOA eligible but it is TBD.
Research: 1 medical school funded summer project, not in derm, resulting in a poster presentation at a medical school conference.

Thanks!

 

[asmallchild]

Hi all, I am late in MS3 and seriously starting to consider derm. I was hoping I would fall in love with something less competitive, but that hasn't happened yet, so here I am.

I saw the post by 0921am above with good numbers and little research. My pedigree is not as impressive and I specifically want to know if I need to take a year off for research. 3rd year ends in April; if I were to intensely pursue research between April and September, and if just 1 project led to a publication, could that be enough? To show a real commitment to research, would I need to take a year off and aim for multiple publications? I don't really want to take a year off, but if it's necessary to be competitive, I would.

Middle of the road MD school
Preclinical: strict P/F, I have all P's and letters of distinction in some/most classes
Step 1: 266
Clinical: H's in the 4 of 6 rotations I've completed so far (IM, Surg, Peds, Family)
Step 2: TBD
EC's/honors: typical service stuff, Gold Humanism member, am AOA eligible but it is TBD.
Research: 1 medical school funded summer project, not in derm, resulting in a poster presentation at a medical school conference.

Thanks!

Nope you should be fine as well, I would be sure to bump up the research as much as you can, apply broadly and you should be fine

Now if you wanted to take a year off for research, that would really solidify your application package but as it stands, I don't think you need to do so

 

[emiko]

.

 

[dermie1985]

Some advice on options if not matching?

I am a MD/PhD student interested in applying for derm residency. However, due to my SO's job in tech, ideally we want to relocate to California from the East Coast. I talked to a couple graduating students from my program (both MD/PhD's and MDs) who successfully matched into top derm programs in the Bay Area, and their feedbacks were that as a MD/PhD, it was not impossible to match into the Bay Area programs although luck is also a huge factor in the process. My question is, if I do not match into derm in California (either the Bay Area or Los Angeles) when I do apply, what can I do to wait for another year and reapply? From my own research it seems like people can do the prelim year first, but I am not sure if that is a good idea since it doesn't seem like the prelim year will improve the application in any way and how would one have time to go for interviews during intern year?

Would options like taking a year to do research (ex. postdoc position..I will have a PhD!) in the institution that I am interested be helpful if I do research in the derm department? Would taking this year off hurt my chance of eventually matching into a residency program?

We are pretty much set on relocating to California no matter what since my SO has sacrificed that opportunity for me when I started the MD/PhD program. I know everyone will say that it is a terrible idea to be geographically limited while applying for derm, but I think it is important enough for his career that I really need to figure out a way to be there as well.

My stats:
Top tier MD school
Preclinical: All P in a P/F system
Step 1: mid 250s
Clinical: TBD, but I doubt I will be honoring everything after the PhD. I was not crazy good at clinical stuff as a med students neither and I am much more of a research person.
Step 2: TBD
EC's/honors: not eligible for AOA as MD/PhD in my program. Some minor leadership position but in general I am not very involved with ECs (no volunteering, no real interest in public health kind of things). I spend all my time doing research and that is my intended career
Research: PhD in basic science/cancer biology non-derm related area. Will likely have some nice papers by graduation. 2 mid author basic science papers published in top journals (nature, cell, science) from undergrad.

What are you recommendations on things I should do NOW (like getting involved with extra derm research)? And options if I don't match into California programs? And how much would taking a year off to do research in my interested institution improve my chance of matching into that program?

Thank you in advance for any advice and suggestions!

I would recommend applying to a back-up specialty (i.e. Family Med, Internal Med, Peds, even Rads or something else you're interested in that is less competitive) if you're only going to limit yourself geographically to LA and San Francisco. These are two of the MOST competitive cities to match in dermatology (really, any specialty). There are many home institution applicants and tons of non-home applicants from California who also want to match there. I've met many stellar applicants on the trail who didn't get any interviews at California programs. Even 1 or 2 who did research years at institutions in California. Any many who grew-up on the West Coast.

I'd look into doing away rotations at California programs you're interested in. Though, with the caveat, that many top programs in California have many away rotators and that it does not guarantee an interview. The most high-yield research fellowships usually require PGY-1 training and a medical license (though there are some that don't), so this might be something to think about if you don't match.

I don't think taking extra time as a medical student to do derm research is going to drastically change your application (you're already MD/PhD so you have many more publications and qualifications than the average applicant). But, you should try and work on something simple (case reports, case series, review, etc.) with a derm faculty member to at least get your foot in the door and form a mentorship relationship with someone who can go to bat for you in a recommendation letter.

Also, just curious why only LA and San Fran? There are many other fun cities in the U.S. (Austin, Denver, NYC, Chicago, Boston) with healthy tech and start-up scenes for him/her to get a job. I think you need to be realistic with your spouse that you're applying in a ultra-competitive specialty and probably need to apply much broader to help ensure a successful match.

 

[emiko]

.

 

[dermie1985]

The LA and SF location is mostly because even in tech, these two places have the most opportunities. I personally don't know much about this... but this was coming from the higher ups in my SO's company that while our current location (NYC) offers great promotion opportunities, SF and LA's opportunities are unparalleled. He was encouraged to think about relocating to SF/LA in the future.

I am/was a California resident. My family still live there and I also went to high school & college in California.. not sure if that would help with getting a residency spot to show geographical tie. I will certainly do aways there. Getting in touch with faculties & work on case reports is a great idea...I will certainly start on that this year! Thanks for the tips!

Re. the "most high yield research fellowship" comments, are you saying that I should consider doing internship year anyways right out of med school and then arrange a research year in case of no match? That's certainly a possibility and I don't mind it. Which fellowships are you talking about regarding the "high yield" comments?

By the way, I am only thinking about applying for the research track... I am not sure if that makes a difference in terms of how difficult it is to match.

I think geography (either current medical school or where you grew up) is important. But in terms of California, many applicants grew up or went to school in California and/or want to move to California (its a desirable place to live)...so the programs aren't as worried about you not coming there because of geographic considerations. Certainly family connections to California definitely help. As would away rotations. But, even the less-desirable California programs can often still match top applicants from wherever in the US, partially because of location.

There are only 8 programs between LA and SF (if you consider Loma Linda and Irvine part of LA)....Kaiser, USC, UC-Irvine, Loma Linda, UCLA, UCLA-Harbor, Stanford, UCSF. In terms of research track, I think there are only 1-2 formal spots at UCSF and 1 spot at UCLA. Not entirely sure about this as I didn't apply to research track programs, but I've heard those spots are about as equally competitive. If you only applied to these 8 programs, I think you would run a very high risk of not matching.

I'd definitely talk to your SO about geography and the competitiveness of derm. I also applied this cycle with a SO in mind who was geographically restricted because of work. But, you still need to apply broadly to ensure matching (i.e. minimum 40-60 programs). For me, this meant I applied to all programs in any city where my SO could reasonably find a job (not just the ones where the *best* jobs are). This is just the reality of applying in dermatology. If you don't think you could apply outside of LA/SF, I definitely think you'd need to consider alternative specialties as a back-up plan. Matching in Peds/Internal Med/Family Med in LA or SF is definitely do-able.

In terms of research fellowships. There are a lot of clinical research derm fellowships all across the country, but most require a medical license so you can help run clinical trials/work in clinic/etc. So, many require PGY1 training. That could be a back-plan if you don't match. But, realize that matching in California isn't necessarily going to be easier the second time around even with a research fellowship. Big-wigs programs that offer these fellowships (i.e. UCSF, Harvard, Penn) often have 5-10 fellows per year and won't necessarily be given preference in the match outside of courtesy interviews.