want to drop out of medical school and pursue a psyd

[valentinoRossi]

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In the past few days I have been seriously considering a career change. The sole reason why i went into medical school was to pursue psychiatry. I knew about psyd and phd programs in psych that seemed interesting, but the career benefits of psychiatry appealed to me more (salary/lifestyle/noble profession). But after a month into medical school I have clearly learned that as a physician, no matter what field, you are always a scientist first. You have to LOVE the sciences, or be strong enough to bear through the years learning them. I don't have any real interest in the science of the human body and how it functions..my interests rely on the brain and human behavior. The truth is, I don't think we even cover the brain that much in medical school, and certainly not how it relates to specific human behavior.
I am not doing good in medical school as well...and although it has to do with some study habit deficiencies, a lack of passion and interest highly contributes to my performance mishaps. But the money....boy...the money I'll make as a doctor is nice. I can leave residency and make 200k a year. Money doesn't buy happiness, thats true..but it does buy options. If psychologists would have a garanteed salary of about 90-100k a year I would pursue it a second....but the entire concept of making 40-50k a year for the rest of my life is a big sacrifice that i have trouble considering.

More importanty, sometimes I wonder in what field i would learn more about the brain...in a field like psychiatry...or in a field like nuero-psychology...where i could relate the hard science of neurology with the social sciences of analyzing human behavior. And then i have issues of even getting into a psyd program... I didn't major in psychology...but i read about it almost daily. I get research updates sent to my phone daily via twitter, which is basically like having the psychology research community in your pocket.
The only thing holding me back from making the change is the 150,000 salary downgrade. I also understand that the market is saturated with psychologists because private psyd programs have easy admission standards and basically allow an overflow of students, because lets face it..everyone finds psychology interesting...its one of the nation's most popular college majors. I also have read about how people with a masters can provide services and are sometimes cheaper, which ruins the economic flow of everyone else in the field who was charging a higher price for their services. The same problem is occurring within the medical community as PA's and nurses are taking over since they can do the same duties for half the price.
I have research experience (in anesthesia and nematode/plant/tobacco genetics testing). I have 2 psychiatrists in my immediate family so have always been surrounded by professionals in the mental health field. And in the end...it's what interests me....helping people, and understanding people...
Nueropsychology is probably the most interesting fields when it comes to medicine and psychology both...any nueropsychologists here can give me any advice? Or perhaps anyone pursuing a psyd or phd...maybe someone whose practicing and is able to make a comfortable salary of 70k+? I don't wanna hear anything about how money doesn't buy happiness and all of that...i read the study on how after the 70k benchmark there's no correlation between salary and happiness lol. But lets be real...money is a factor. Student debt isn't an issue when choosing a career...and although time is important too, im currently in a field that says i'll be 32 by the time i can be a fully practicing doctor (just turned 24 in august).

any honest and informative insight or advice would be greatly appreciated 🙂

now..back to studying microbiology 😴

 

[Neuropsych2be]

In the past few days I have been seriously considering a career change. The sole reason why i went into medical school was to pursue psychiatry. I knew about psyd and phd programs in psych that seemed interesting, but the career benefits of psychiatry appealed to me more (salary/lifestyle/noble profession). But after a month into medical school I have clearly learned that as a physician, no matter what field, you are always a scientist first. You have to LOVE the sciences, or be strong enough to bear through the years learning them. I don't have any real interest in the science of the human body and how it functions..my interests rely on the brain and human behavior. The truth is, I don't think we even cover the brain that much in medical school, and certainly not how it relates to specific human behavior.
I am not doing good in medical school as well...and although it has to do with some study habit deficiencies, a lack of passion and interest highly contributes to my performance mishaps. But the money....boy...the money I'll make as a doctor is nice. I can leave residency and make 200k a year. Money doesn't buy happiness, thats true..but it does buy options. If psychologists would have a garanteed salary of about 90-100k a year I would pursue it a second....but the entire concept of making 40-50k a year for the rest of my life is a big sacrifice that i have trouble considering.

More importanty, sometimes I wonder in what field i would learn more about the brain...in a field like psychiatry...or in a field like nuero-psychology...where i could relate the hard science of neurology with the social sciences of analyzing human behavior. And then i have issues of even getting into a psyd program... I didn't major in psychology...but i read about it almost daily. I get research updates sent to my phone daily via twitter, which is basically like having the psychology research community in your pocket.
The only thing holding me back from making the change is the 150,000 salary downgrade. I also understand that the market is saturated with psychologists because private psyd programs have easy admission standards and basically allow an overflow of students, because lets face it..everyone finds psychology interesting...its one of the nation's most popular college majors. I also have read about how people with a masters can provide services and are sometimes cheaper, which ruins the economic flow of everyone else in the field who was charging a higher price for their services. The same problem is occurring within the medical community as PA's and nurses are taking over since they can do the same duties for half the price.
I have research experience (in anesthesia and nematode/plant/tobacco genetics testing). I have 2 psychiatrists in my immediate family so have always been surrounded by professionals in the mental health field. And in the end...it's what interests me....helping people, and understanding people...
Nueropsychology is probably the most interesting fields when it comes to medicine and psychology both...any nueropsychologists here can give me any advice? Or perhaps anyone pursuing a psyd or phd...maybe someone whose practicing and is able to make a comfortable salary of 70k+? I don't wanna hear anything about how money doesn't buy happiness and all of that...i read the study on how after the 70k benchmark there's no correlation between salary and happiness lol. But lets be real...money is a factor. Student debt isn't an issue when choosing a career...and although time is important too, im currently in a field that says i'll be 32 by the time i can be a fully practicing doctor (just turned 24 in august).

any honest and informative insight or advice would be greatly appreciated 🙂

now..back to studying microbiology 😴

Stay in med school. Psychology is not as flooded as you hear on this board. But in terms of income and job security keep on doing the med school thing as best you can and them go into psychiatry

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Stay in med school. Psychology is not as flooded as you hear on this board. But in terms of income and job security keep on doing the med school thing as best you can and them go into psychiatry

I'd second this, at least until you finish your first year or two. As rough as that sounds, I don't know that I've heard a single physician who didn't say they'd change careers if they had to do the first two years of med school over again. You're definitely not alone in your sentiment. People obviously do end up leaving, but I'd say that one month in--as bad as it currently is--would be too early to make such a big decision.

As for psychology, while $40-50k/year would be on the rather low-end salary-wise, you're correct in that it's much, much "easier" to make money in psychiatry/medicine.

 

[valentinoRossi]

Stay in med school. Psychology is not as flooded as you hear on this board. But in terms of income and job security keep on doing the med school thing as best you can and them go into psychiatry

Hypothetically, if i were to fail my first block and just get dismissed..intend of applying for re-admission would you think pursuing psych would be better? In other words should i be in medicine simply because i'm already in it?

 

[Zigman]

Stay in med school. Psychology is not as flooded as you hear on this board. But in terms of income and job security keep on doing the med school thing as best you can and them go into psychiatry

I can see why you might say this. However, I am on internship at a med school neuropsych track, working frequently with physicians (mostly psychiatrists), psychiatry residents, and med students. The way we approach problems is just so fundamentally different. None of them know much about many different neuro presentations and neuropsychology is consulted and referred to constantly. I can't imagine feeling satisfied doing the things that they do. For example, treating everything as a problem to be medicated. And there are many other examples. I know that the pay is not great coming out, but I've been living comfortably on much much less, so money truly isn't everything to me. Plus, once board certified after fellowship, independent forensic practice becomes a very possible option, and is much more lucrative.

I wouldn't simply say to never consider it, but the path is competitive, its a long haul, and the pay is weak compared to the length of study. For me, there is simply nothing I would rather do.

 

[deleted176373]

Stay in med school, your problems will not likely be solved by trying to become a psychologist. It's time to dig deep and suck it up... there are a lot of red flags I see in your post that would make me very hesitant to recommend you pursuing a degree change now.

Not all psychologists live in poverty, I know many who make a pretty solid living, close to that "garanteed salary of about 90-100k a year I would pursue it a second" amount. It's all in what you are willing to tolerate, but as a military psychologist, this is certainly an attainable number.

 

[valentinoRossi]

I can see why you might say this. However, I am on internship at a med school neuropsych track, working frequently with physicians (mostly psychiatrists), psychiatry residents, and med students. The way we approach problems is just so fundamentally different. None of them know much about many different neuro presentations and neuropsychology is consulted and referred to constantly. I can't imagine feeling satisfied doing the things that they do. For example, treating everything as a problem to be medicated. And there are many other examples. I know that the pay is not great coming out, but I've been living comfortably on much much less, so money truly isn't everything to me. Plus, once board certified after fellowship, independent forensic practice becomes a very possible option, and is much more lucrative.

I wouldn't simply say to never consider it, but the path is competitive, its a long haul, and the pay is weak compared to the length of study. For me, there is simply nothing I would rather do.

another main component is that i feel nueropsychology would be more mentally stimulating...in medicine you are simply a robot memorizing things...psychiatrists are helpful, but sometimes don't really diffuse the bomb the best way it can be diffused if you know what i mean.
-Nueropsychology seems incredibly interesting honestly...more than anything i could pursue in medicine

 

[valentinoRossi]

Stay in med school,...there are a lot of red flags I see in your post that would make me very hesitant to recommend you pursuing a degree change now.

do explain

 

[deleted176373]

do explain

Certainly, Psychologists, especially Ph.D. clinical psychologists, are scientists first. Even many Psy.D.'s despite their "Scholar-Practitioner" model have considerable understanding of research, albeit a more applied perspective usually.

Your reasons for considering a change include your poor academic performance, which would possibly not improve in a psychology program, especially if god forbid you attempted a Ph.D. program. While Medical School is certainly tough, and it's tough in a different way than a Psychology Ph.D. program, and this doesn't mean you will find an easier path in either the Psy.D. or Ph.D. psychology programs. It also is after your first month in school where you assume that you now know everything there is to know about your medical training program... scary.

As a clinical psychologist, your knowledge of medicine is still important, if you don't think that a clinical psychologist needs to understand physiology, pharmacology, or pathology, then I believe that you are doing yourself a disservice. I know that having a well rounded program that required me to take pharmacology, physiology, and other medical courses helped prepare me to work well with physicians on a regular basis as well as share the common terminology that can make psychologists more valuable to the treatment team in a hospital setting.

Finally you make some generalizations about psychology that aren't completely true with regard to the economics behind it. As an intern I am making a comfortable living, I am not worried about Masters level practitioners stealing my revenue stream, and I know that I bring something to the table that is worthwhile. It's not a vow of poverty nor does it need to be.

 

[valentinoRossi]

Certainly, Psychologists, especially Ph.D. clinical psychologists, are scientists first. Even many Psy.D.'s despite their "Scholar-Practitioner" model have considerable understanding of research, albeit a more applied perspective usually.

Your reasons for considering a change include your poor academic performance, which would possibly not improve in a psychology program, especially if god forbid you attempted a Ph.D. program. While Medical School is certainly tough, and it's tough in a different way than a Psychology Ph.D. program, and this doesn't mean you will find an easier path in either the Psy.D. or Ph.D. psychology programs. It also is after your first month in school where you assume that you now know everything there is to know about your medical training program... scary.

As a clinical psychologist, your knowledge of medicine is still important, if you don't think that a clinical psychologist needs to understand physiology, pharmacology, or pathology, then I believe that you are doing yourself a disservice. I know that having a well rounded program that required me to take pharmacology, physiology, and other medical courses helped prepare me to work well with physicians on a regular basis as well as share the common terminology that can make psychologists more valuable to the treatment team in a hospital setting.

Finally you make some generalizations about psychology that aren't completely true with regard to the economics behind it. As an intern I am making a comfortable living, I am not worried about Masters level practitioners stealing my revenue stream, and I know that I bring something to the table that is worthwhile. It's not a vow of poverty nor does it need to be.

the reason why i have poor performance is because the material is so insanely boring that its hard as hell to apply yourself 100% when your heart isn't into it.

yeah i want to learn about medicine..but not about things that don't really pertain to the brain or the cns.
What you say about the economic aspect is understandable..thats something that i need to learn more about. I'm not looking at the situation as a back up plan...the dean already told me that i i want to take time off to become a stronger student i can do that and still have my seat saved next year. I'm not talking about just getting kicked out of medicine, im talking about walking away. I have been having doubts of medicine for a very long time...I was actually applying to psyd programs earlier this year, but after i got accepted into medschool i put that all aside.
The difficulties of medical school are different than the difficulties of a psychology Psyd/phd program (from what i understand). We do nothing but memorize things....thats it...we MEMORIZE things...molecules, enzymes, peptones, cytokines, pathways, blah blah blah...its very boring actually....But to study a human being, a person's mind...every mind is unique, every behavior is special. I don't just wanna be secluded away from medicine and doctors...i would love to work with psychiatrists...i dunno...blah

 

[valentinoRossi]

its funny...my friends in med school say i don't fit well here because im not into the sciences...the dean told me that pursuing psych isn't such a bad idea...but every psychologist i talk to advises me not to do it...i spoke with a admissions director at a psych masters program the other day and he said that coming from a medical school i should have no problem pursuing psych.
whatever...ill just call a program up tomorrow and ask to speak with a student rep or something.

 

[Sneezing]

As a psychiatry resident I can say there is memorization but its up to you to pull it all together and see the big picture. You have just started. I wanted to quit my first semester, too. All the information is pertinent and the more you invest in it the better you'll be. There are few black and whites in this world of mental health and psychiatry training is excellent at deciphering the gray.

Understand that the stress level you are expereincing now will not go away, but merely morph and change each year of your training. Part of the reason of such a mental gauntlet is to prepare you for the stress monsoon of the rest of your life (and sleep deprivation). Choose wisely...

 

[cara susanna]

Psych has a lot of science in it, too. Especially the research aspect.

 

[valentinoRossi]

when i talk about "science"..im talking about medical school science...its different...its not harder...its just different....its very dry and black and white

 

[deleted176373]

when i talk about "science"..im talking about medical school science...its different...its not harder...its just different....its very dry and black and white

I agree with you 100% there... I can see where you are coming from, I know that much of the early part of med school is pumping and dumping information. As you stated, much of it is boring regurgitation of facts and less about critical thinking at this stage.

Please take what I said above in a constructive way. If you can integrate what others are telling you and still come to the same conclusion that you should pursue a career in psychology, then follow your passion. I think we all just want you to understand that this is not a jump to take lightly at this point in your studies.

I wish you the best of luck in your future pursuits.

 

[PerhapsMaybeOk]

Funny how there are supposed to be psychologists on this board; they are recommending you chose money over happiness. Who am I to stop them?

 

[roubs]

Funny how there are supposed to be psychologists on this board; they are recommending you chose money over happiness. Who am I to stop them?

OP appears to be wanting to jump ship after what, 2-3 weeks of med school? I dunno I feel like managing a data set is mind numbing enough to make memorizing globs of medical terms look appealing.

 

[nitemagi]

another main component is that i feel nueropsychology would be more mentally stimulating...in medicine you are simply a robot memorizing things...psychiatrists are helpful, but sometimes don't really diffuse the bomb the best way it can be diffused if you know what i mean.
-Nueropsychology seems incredibly interesting honestly...more than anything i could pursue in medicine

I think you're not examining the full medical options, and while the beginning of medical school is a lot of memorization, it's the critical thinking that separates the good doctors from the bad. How do you tie together the observation, a critical interview, the medical history? Most physicological systems, believe it or not, affect the CNS. Those basic sciences form the basis not just for understanding all the intricacies on how current medications work, but for how future medications can and will work, how meds may interact, and how medical conditions can affect psychiatric illnesses (delirium, hypothyroidism, limbic encephalitis). No meds work only on the CNS. There isn't ANY.

And while it's sad to hear about our field (psychiatry) always looking at a situation as an opportunity to medicate (akin to surgeons looking for a reason to cut), no one has to fit that mold (unfortunate that that's the only exposure hgravez has). Furthermore, other career options like behavioral neurology may end up being the most interesting for you.


Now you may be at a medical school with an especially dry basic science curriculum, which is too bad. The old metaphor for the 1st two years is trying to wrap your mouth around a firehose and drink. Hopefully the important things will stick. The classic paradigm in medical education (which is flawed) is a lot of memorization in the beginning with little connection to the clinical, followed by a lot of clinical without enough teaching of the critical thinking or how to incorporate all the basic science. Does your medical school use PBL's for teaching? Do you learn the physical exam before 3rd year?

I'm not a psychologist, but one thing the PhD's hammer on this site over and over again is they are scientists first. If science isn't your bag, that's one thing. I'd talk with practitioners you'd like to model in any field before considering a real career change, especially if it involves something as big as leaving med school. Did you talk to doctors before applying?

In the end, if you're going to jump ship it's a lot better to leave with 20-50k of loans than 200k in loans. So think a while before making any rash decisions. Med students do many a thing including leaves of absence to sort out their priorities.

 

[wigflip]

In the end, if you're going to jump ship it's a lot better to leave with 20-50k of loans than 200k in loans. So think a while before making any rash decisions. Med students do many a thing including leaves of absence to sort out their priorities.

Yes.

I haven't read the updates on this thread very meticulously, but I have some experience with career indecision. I've done the smart, logical thing twice (two different grad programs, the first of which I quit, the second which I'm now considering quitting). Both times I applied and enrolled my decisions were backed by a long list of good, logical, thought-out reasons why the course of action I was taking was smart and advantageous. But deep down I knew it wasn't a good fit, and wasn't really what I wanted to be doing.

Now, almost a decade later, here I am on SDN, snarfling around like a pig after truffles, hoping to put together the life I wanted, but wasn't brave enough to choose because I was worried about making the "smart" choice. I don't know what the right path for you is, but I do know that I've wasted a lot of time and money failing to be honest with myself about who I am and what I really want. And I wouldn't want that for anyone else.

 

[wigflip]

OP appears to be wanting to jump ship after what, 2-3 weeks of med school? I dunno I feel like managing a data set is mind numbing enough to make memorizing globs of medical terms look appealing.

I hear what you're saying, but in my case, I knew after 3 weeks (the deadline for gettin' your tuition money back) that my MSW program wasn't right for me. I KNEW. But I got talked into staying ("we need people like you!" "how will you know whether it's right for you if you don't give it a chance?"). I burned a miserable, expensive semester, and still ended up quitting the next term when it became completely obvious that it wasn't going to get better. Sometimes you freak out and need to be talked off the ledge. Other times, you just know. The problem is being able to tell the difference. It ain't easy. I feel for the OP.

 

[sunlioness]

I remember my first month of medical school. I got an ear infection. I never got ear infections in my life and there I was a 25 year old with raging otitis media and crying because it hurt so bad. I did what any rational human being would do. I went to the doctor, took a course of abx, and slept a lot until I felt better. And then I failed anatomy (I had to remediate it over the following summer and remained on academic probation for a year). The firehose is a good analogy. The workload is amazing and if you fall behind, you're finished. Or at least, I was. There were people who seemed to coast through, but I wasn't one of them. There was no real time to digest anything, because there was always more coming. Some of it, I really enjoyed. Like histology? That was awesome because it was like Art History. Other stuff was mind numbing; like biochem and neuroanatomy. Some of it I felt I wasn't "supposed to" like because it wasn't "hard core" enough . . . like ethics and epidemiology, but I still did.

I was a history major as an undergrad and went to medical school because I had this idea of becoming an infectious disease specialist and working for the CDC fighting outbreaks. Either that or a pediatrician. And now here I am a psychiatrist. Do I regret where I am? No, not at all. Would I do it over again? I don't know.

There is a lot to be said for the fact that the first two years of med school kind of suck for everyone and that you get to engage your brain in more fun ways later once you've built a solod foundation of basic knowledge. But then there's also something to be said for cutting your losses while you can if you truly know that you don't like what you're doing. So I don't really know what to advise either.

 

[Neuropsych2be]

I'd second this, at least until you finish your first year or two. As rough as that sounds, I don't know that I've heard a single physician who didn't say they'd change careers if they had to do the first two years of med school over again. You're definitely not alone in your sentiment. People obviously do end up leaving, but I'd say that one month in--as bad as it currently is--would be too early to make such a big decision.

As for psychology, while $40-50k/year would be on the rather low-end salary-wise, you're correct in that it's much, much "easier" to make money in psychiatry/medicine.

Actually every single ER physician I have ever dealt with has said that they often regret their decision to go into medicine. However, most of them realize that they are recession proof to a degree that the rest of us are not.

 

[Neuropsych2be]

I agree with you 100% there... I can see where you are coming from, I know that much of the early part of med school is pumping and dumping information. As you stated, much of it is boring regurgitation of facts and less about critical thinking at this stage.

Please take what I said above in a constructive way. If you can integrate what others are telling you and still come to the same conclusion that you should pursue a career in psychology, then follow your passion. I think we all just want you to understand that this is not a jump to take lightly at this point in your studies.

I wish you the best of luck in your future pursuits.

I have met people who have done both a Ph.D. in clinical psychology and an MD. They tell me that the two are radically different and require very different cognitive skill sets. They have told me that a Ph.D. is not actually easier but hard in a different way than med school. Rather than massive memorization, you have to rapidly develop divergent rather than convergent thinking skills. In a Ph.D. program you synthesize and evaluate a smaller amount of material at a vary high intellectual level. Also never underestimate how a Ph.D. can be grueling. You will be done with med school in 4 years. But a psychology Ph.D. can drag on for a lot more than that. Think Boston marathon versus a sprint.

 

[valentinoRossi]

I have met people who have done both a Ph.D. in clinical psychology and an MD. They tell me that the two are radically different and require very different cognitive skill sets. They have told me that a Ph.D. is not actually easier but hard in a different way than med school. Rather than massive memorization, you have to rapidly develop divergent rather than convergent thinking skills. In a Ph.D. program you synthesize and evaluate a smaller amount of material at a vary high intellectual level. Also never underestimate how a Ph.D. can be grueling. You will be done with med school in 4 years. But a psychology Ph.D. can drag on for a lot more than that. Think Boston marathon versus a sprint.

i would rather pursue a psyd...its quicker and im not thattttttt much in love with number crunching in research

 

[wigflip]

Listening to a Freakonomics podcast on the topic of...quitting. Only 1/3 way through, but it's pretty interesting, if the economic frame (sunk cost, opportunity cost) doesn't put you off. They get to grad school/academic pursuits around 19:30 or so.
http://freakonomicsradio.com/the-upside-of-quitting.html

 

[AcronymAllergy]

If you don't like research, you have no business with a doctorate. The Psy.D. is not devoid of doing research. At the reputable programs, you will still have to take statistics and methodology courses and produce a dissertation. Part of knowing good studies from crap ones is knowing what goes into crunching the numbers, so even if you're not going to conduct research, you're able to adequately consume it to inform your practice.

Seconded. As you mention, even if you never conduct another unique research study after grad school, an intimate knowledge of the process of scientific inquiry (especially in psychology) is important to being able to competently digest the research of others. It also can come in quite handy in many clinical situations, such as case formulation, evaluating testing results, and even clinical interviewing.

 

[wigflip]

If you don't like research, you have no business with a doctorate. The Psy.D. is not devoid of doing research. At the reputable programs, you will still have to take statistics and methodology courses and produce a dissertation. Part of knowing good studies from crap ones is knowing what goes into crunching the numbers, so even if you're not going to conduct research, you're able to adequately consume it to inform your practice.

Hmmm. I wonder why the profs recruited to do peer review and journal editors don't know good studies from crap ones.

 

[nitemagi]

I have met people who have done both a Ph.D. in clinical psychology and an MD. They tell me that the two are radically different and require very different cognitive skill sets. They have told me that a Ph.D. is not actually easier but hard in a different way than med school. Rather than massive memorization, you have to rapidly develop divergent rather than convergent thinking skills. In a Ph.D. program you synthesize and evaluate a smaller amount of material at a vary high intellectual level. Also never underestimate how a Ph.D. can be grueling. You will be done with med school in 4 years. But a psychology Ph.D. can drag on for a lot more than that. Think Boston marathon versus a sprint.

Med school is 4 years. Residency is 3-7 additional years. Plus fellowships. Few career options without a residency.

 

[Neuropsych2be]

Unfortunately, other agendas also play a role in studies getting published. I'm thinking in particular of that psychodynamic meta-analysis recently published where later it was discovered they had grossly miscalculated effect sizes.

Sorry to drift off topic but is this the Shedler article?

 

[nitemagi]

Seconded. As you mention, even if you never conduct another unique research study after grad school, an intimate knowledge of the process of scientific inquiry (especially in psychology) is important to being able to competently digest the research of others. It also can come in quite handy in many clinical situations, such as case formulation, evaluating testing results, and even clinical interviewing.

This is especially necessary for MD's. If you don't know how to read between the lines on Pharma propaganda "research," you're adrift without a rudder. Sorry to mix metaphors.

 

[Ollie123]

Hmmm. I wonder why the profs recruited to do peer review and journal editors don't know good studies from crap ones.

I see your general point but I also think that 1) Just because an article has flaws does not mean it shouldn't be published. That contributes to the current mess we have in the literature where people attempt to cover up flaws rather than being up front about them, and 2) To keep articles from becoming outlandishly long, one should be able to assume the reader of a professional journal has a solid enough understanding of the field (in this case, that includes research methods and stats) to "see" the things that don't need to be said. Classical example would be correlation vs. causation. I don't want every paper I read with a correlational design to spend pages explaining why we can't infer causality when it should be obvious to even a well-trained undergraduate. Yet I see this screwed up time and time again by folks in clinical settings, who took the discussion section at face value because the authors (some of whom I have great respect for) likely assumed that the folks reading the journal were capable of passing an undergraduate research methods course.

 

[valentinoRossi]

i enjoy research when the topic is interesting...i worked in a lab doing research on tobacco plants and no matter how how i tried to care..i couldn't.

everyone in my family is a doctor...mother, father, brothers, sister...its a family trade i guess...im not being forced into it at all...but i think its really just the only career that i know of...or only successful career i know if because its all that i have been exposed to.
My big theory is still that you will do well in a field that you are good at....if you are great at learning biology, then you can make a great doctor...(although you still need people skills). I feel that i could make a damn good psychologist...in research, in academia, in private practice...its just something that i feel i could be very passionate about. I come from a liberal arts background too tho...im the only one in my family who has a B.A and not a B.S...when i changed my major from biology to one that i really wanted to do,, i did really well..simply because i didn't really consider it work. It almost came off as natural...there are a million factors that need to be taken into consideration when choosing a career...its literally impossible to pick the perfect one.

 

[wigflip]

I guess generally speaking, I'm just a bit uncomfortable with the assertion that one must not merely understand, but conduct (and perhaps one further, enjoy conducting) original research in order to be a competent clinician. For one thing, I think the assertion implies that by virtue of their training, virtually all masters level clinicians are crappy (I know some have to write empirical theses, but many do not--the best ranked masters programs in my city do not require original research).*

From what I've experienced firsthand, I've got a lot of skepticism about the peer review process (as I imply above). And I guess I'm not clear about what's so transformative about conducting an empirical dissertation (if it's the last research one does). The way this is discussed on SDN sometimes implies that one must conduct original research in order to be a competent clinician, even if one never does research again after the diss. But if original research is essential, why wouldn't it also be essential to continue down that path as a means of informing one's clinical work over the course of the career?

Alternately, if the diss is the rite of passage, and after that it's fine to merely interpret research (correctly), why would one be less clinically competent if one merely interpreted research correctly without writing an empirical diss? I'm sure plenty of people write slop and get pushed through. And what if you write a qualitative empirical diss but can still interpret stats?

What I'd really like to know is, does anyone know of any studies tracking how many/which licensed clinicians actually keep up with new research? (I'd hate for any speculative replies to that question to devolve into a funded vs/professional school brawl). And how much reading are they doing how often?

*Full disclosure: I quit my MSW program at the end of the third week of the second term. When I left, feeling like I'd been fleeced, there were still a sizable minority of folks who STILL didn't understand the difference between independent and dependent variables. I don't think this means that they're all knuckleheads, but I'm pretty certain that by the end of the first year many of those folks couldn't competently interpret and evaluate basic journal articles with any sophistication. Are they all doomed clinicians?

 

[valentinoRossi]

I guess generally speaking, I'm just a bit uncomfortable with the assertion that one must not merely understand, but conduct (and perhaps one further, enjoy conducting) original research in order to be a competent clinician. For one thing, I think the assertion implies that by virtue of their training, virtually all masters level clinicians are crappy (I know some have to write empirical theses, but many do not--the best ranked masters programs in my city do not require original research).*

From what I've experienced firsthand, I've got a lot of skepticism about the peer review process (as I imply above). And I guess I'm not clear about what's so transformative about conducting an empirical dissertation (if it's the last research one does). The way this is discussed on SDN sometimes implies that one must conduct original research in order to be a competent clinician, even if one never does research again after the diss. But if original research is essential, why wouldn't it also be essential to continue down that path as a means of informing one's clinical work over the course of the career?

Alternately, if the diss is the rite of passage, and after that it's fine to merely interpret research (correctly), why would one be less clinically competent if one merely interpreted research correctly without writing an empirical diss? I'm sure plenty of people write slop and get pushed through. And what if you write a qualitative empirical diss but can still interpret stats?

What I'd really like to know is, does anyone know of any studies tracking how many/which licensed clinicians actually keep up with new research? (I'd hate for any speculative replies to that question to devolve into a funded vs/professional school brawl). And how much reading are they doing how often?

*Full disclosure: I quit my MSW program at the end of the third week of the second term. When I left, feeling like I'd been fleeced, there were still a sizable minority of folks who STILL didn't understand the difference between independent and dependent variables. I don't think this means that they're all knuckleheads, but I'm pretty certain that by the end of the first year many of those folks couldn't competently interpret and evaluate basic journal articles with any sophistication. Are they all doomed clinicians?

dude wtf does this have to do with my thread? LOL

 

[2012PhD]

Keep in mind that the MAJORITY of clinical psychology PhD and PsyD students struggle and dislike their graduate programs, especially in the first year. I'm in a PhD program and most people i've met in my program and in other programs wanted to drop out of grad school at many points. From my experience with internship, the majority of interns are overworked and can't wait for it to be over. That's the most common response i hear. The grass always looks greener on the other side.

It would be tragic if you dropped out of medical school and then entered a clinical psych. program and realized that you didn't like the program either. There is a good chance of this happening since its fairly common to see disgruntled grad students in our profession. At least with the MD you are guaranteed a good income and a job! Plus, you as others have mentioned, you really don't know how long a PsyD/PhD can take.

 

[wigflip]

dude wtf does this have to do with my thread? LOL

I'm assuming you're kidding, but in case you aren't, it was suggested that your professed lack of enthusiasm for conducting research made you a poor candidate for doctoral study. I was challenging that logic, "dude." In other words, "give the kid a break, folks,--maybe s/he would make a great clinician, even if s/he's not wild about research."

 

[ClinicalABA]

Sorry to drift off topic but is this the Shedler article?

Don't know for sure, but it could be in reference to this article: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2889262/pdf/pps0079-0208.pdf
which is a re-analysis of meta analysis by Leichsenring and Rabung published in 2008 in JAMA.

 

[valentinoRossi]

I'm assuming you're kidding, but in case you aren't, it was suggested that your professed lack of enthusiasm for conducting research made you a poor candidate for doctoral study. I was challenging that logic, "dude." In other words, "give the kid a break, folks,--maybe s/he would make a great clinician, even if s/he's not wild about research."

i appreciate the support dude.
no but seriously, i think you understand where i'm coming from. Research is interesting, i have experience doing it...i worked in a lab and im also published in an anesthesia project. I read psychology related research publications almost daily as i get them on twitter. I mostly just skim through the abstracts, but i still thoroughly enjoy them. I also feel that there is a lack of muslim psychologists in the field, and that also makes me a littler more eager to jump into it. I am muslim, and i have always been fascinated with the psych of not just the american muslim experience, but also of religion in general.

I also feel that if i can apply a medical student's work ethic to another field, along with having an actual genuine interest in the material.. i can do well.

so nobody has gone from med school to a psyd program?....i tried looking online and cant find any stories of people making such a move.....maybe ill be the first?? 😕
ah...that does seem exciting tho.

 

[wigflip]

I agree, the psychology of religion is fascinating. I find I am almost completely unable to relate to the rationale behind deity-based religion. It seems incomprehensibly illogical to me. Like a logic hole for otherwise intelligent human beings. I wonder what the adherence to religion would be if all introductions to it were post development of logic skills (say in the 20s). I bet religion would die out quickly.

Jon, did you just respond to a Muslim that his/her religious beliefs are an illogical manifestation of early socialization? I'm atheist, but that seems a bit cheeky, no?

 

[JuniperTree]

Jon, did you just respond to a Muslim that his/her religious beliefs are an illogical manifestation of early socialization? I'm atheist, but that seems a bit cheeky, no?

I LOL'd.

VelantinoRossi seems pretty cool, I'm sure s/he can handle it.

 

[valentinoRossi]

No doubt 🙂 But, remember, religions are ideas/philosophy. They deserve no special protection from scrutiny.

bingo...the beauty i find in psych is that you can analyze anything, there are no limits. Religion at the end of the day is based on faith and not logic in my opinion. I also have read a research article released a few months ago talking about how people find happiness at their church not because of the connection with God there, but rather with the camaraderie that comes with being in a collective group of believers of christians, jews, muslims, hindus, ect. ect.
It was odd to read that as someone who has always found happiness at the mosque, but only furthered my appreciation for psychology.
Religion is very important to me...but so are many other things in life. Before i wanted to analyze other things and people, but realized that i should first start be learning about myself, and what influences the way i think and act. I had a professor in college who taught me that you shouldn't be ashamed if you love a britney spears song...but you should be aware of WHY you like a britney spears song being a 35 year old grown man...So i see it as, learning WHY i choose to be a muslim is important to me too..even it may be illogical or whatever, i choose to be one, and just being aware that as a human being my "free will" is really just made up of nothing but environmental influences is crucial.


I personally don't think that being a pure genius means you wont believe in god tho..right now im in medical school, and im learning about the most detailed things you can think of about the body..viruses, mircobes...and its absolutely crazy how perfect everything is. Stuff like that makes me wonder how how nature could produce such perfection. Like the virus...the virus is literally the most resistant THING on the planet..its design is perfect..its mind-boggling. But anyways i'm digressing here lol

 

[JuniperTree]

I personally don't think that being a pure genius means you wont believe in god tho..right now im in medical school, and im learning about the most detailed things you can think of about the body..viruses, mircobes...and its absolutely crazy how perfect everything is. Stuff like that makes me wonder how how nature could produce such perfection. Like the virus...the virus is literally the most resistant THING on the planet..its design is perfect..its mind-boggling. But anyways i'm digressing here lol

Glad to hear you are enjoying something you are learning in medical school. 🙂

 

[valentinoRossi]

Keep in mind that the MAJORITY of clinical psychology PhD and PsyD students struggle and dislike their graduate programs, especially in the first year. I'm in a PhD program and most people i've met in my program and in other programs wanted to drop out of grad school at many points. From my experience with internship, the majority of interns are overworked and can't wait for it to be over. That's the most common response i hear. The grass always looks greener on the other side.
.

interesting...yeah i think the grass always is greener...hmm..

 

[IT514]

I agree, the psychology of religion is fascinating. I find I am almost completely unable to relate to the rationale behind deity-based religion. It seems incomprehensibly illogical to me. Like a logic hole for otherwise intelligent human beings. I wonder what the adherence to religion would be if all introductions to it were post development of logic skills (say in the 20s). I bet religion would die out quickly.

So your beliefs, Jon, are not connected in any way to your amygdala? I dont buy that for a second. Our neuroanatomy in the present day ensures that no belief system will be entirely "rational" in the prefrontal sense of the word.

Plus, consider the research on moral development. We typically reject our beliefs and then hold on to whatever we come to believe in our late 20s. In my mind this has nothing to do with learning logic or religion, but is more a reflection of cultural influence.

 

[wigflip]

Plus, consider the research on moral development. We typically reject our beliefs and then hold on to whatever we come to believe in our late 20s.

This is good news. Because if my undergrads are any indication, teens' and early 20-somethings' attitudes and beliefs are disastrous. Maybe there's still hope for my little darlings yet!

 

[valentinoRossi]

edit

 

[valentinoRossi]

without have taken the GRE or more than an intro psych class, what would be my next step (hypothetically)?
I have research experience so that should be good...
A masters program?
would i have any shot at a PSY-d program??
what would be perfect actually...would be if i could start a psyd program next fall, and in the meantime just take psych classes or start a masters (that i wont finish, but will just benefit from by learning i suppose).

 

[wigflip]

Depends on the purpose of belief. Religion as a source of truth about the nature of the universe seems like a poor vehicle. Religion appears to be a cultural source for widely held beliefs about how the universe exists, how people came to be "created" and any number of other occurrences.

In my opinion, religion is the ultimate authority based argument. Deus ex machina. Magic where knowledge is not.

A little atheist humor (click with caution, potentially offensive). The first one I posted on another thread, the second one is new:

All text taken directly from online Christian fundamentalist forums:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO9IPoAdct8

Richard Dawkins gives an inspired reading of his hate mail:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZuowNcuGsc

 

[wigflip]

without have taken the GRE or more than an intro psych class, what would be my next step (hypothetically)?
I have research experience so that should be good...
A masters program?
would i have any shot at a PSY-d program??
what would be perfect actually...would be if i could start a psyd program next fall, and in the meantime just take psych classes or start a masters (that i wont finish, but will just benefit from by learning i suppose).

I don't recall if you already mentioned this, but do you have counseling experience? You might want to get some, though you could probably get into a masters program without it.

 

[cara susanna]

As I always say, the man who invented the concept of memes has no right to be making fun of religion.