Wanted: a large underutilized vault to convert to proton therapy

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Speaking of Carbon Ion, I just spotted this announcement by Moffitt, that in addition to their one room proton center, they are building an entirely new campus the size of downtown Tampa.

It will feature carbon ions:


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Carbon would have less LET “on the way in” (and in skin cells) than protons right? The high LET would be seen in, around, and at the Bragg peak, and it would be much sharper than protons as much due to Coulombic forces (the carbon being much more positively charged than a proton) as the mass of the carbon ion. I am not a physicist.
 
Carbon would have less LET “on the way in” (and in skin cells) than protons right? The high LET would be seen in, around, and at the Bragg peak, and it would be much sharper than protons as much due to Coulombic forces (the carbon being much more positively charged than a proton) as the mass of the carbon ion. I am not a physicist.
1676778616519.png

Spallation gives a bit of a tail compared to protons though.
 
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Going back to Sweden, Lars Leksell's early radiosurgery patients were not treated on a Gamma Knife, but actually with a proton beam. His team wrote about its potential in Nature in 1958:

The High-Energy Proton Beam as a Potential Neurosurgical Tool
The High-Energy Proton Beam as a Neurosurgical Tool - Nature

And a proton treatment picture from Uppsala in 1960:


Pretty bold and amazing what they did even prior to the invention of the CT and MRI.
Stupid question:

Given that the gantry itself is quite expensive and space consuming in protons, why didn’t more centers opt for a cheaper fixed angle proton beam, to lower costs and availability?
They were popular in the past but pretty much everyone is installing gantries now.

Treating prostate and some CNS is possible with a fixed angle beam, right? Even liver appears likely to me. You just need to rotate the patient a little.
 
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Stupid question:

Given that the gantry itself is quite expensive and space consuming in protons, why didn’t more centers opt for a cheaper fixed angle proton beam, to lower costs and availability?
They were popular in the past but pretty much everyone is installing gantries now.

Treating prostate and some CNS is possible with a fixed angle beam, right? Even liver appears likely to me. You just need to rotate the patient a little.
Mevion's new system is just that -- fixed beam, and the patient in rotisserie.
 
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Does carbon suffer from even more increased let (than protons) in the spread out Bragg peak?
 
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Mevion's new system is just that -- fixed beam, and the patient in rotisserie.
Vers interesting! I wonder

a) what the price tag will be?
b) how you are supposed to sim the patients (perhaps with the same machine, actually)?
 
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Does carbon suffer from even more increased let (than protons) in the spread out Bragg peak?
From my understanding:
- LET can differ within the Bragg peak with carbon ions.
- The RBE can be all over the board, depending on histology.
 
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From my understanding:
- LET can differ within the Bragg peak with carbon ions.
- The RBE can be all over the board, depending on histology.
Sounds like we've got a solid 50 years or so of equivocal trials/data ahead of us where the conclusion is that more study is required!

I'm going to publish a methods paper describing how to do a search/replace in MS Word. Just replace "protons" with "carbon." You won't actually help anyone, but you might just collect enough tickets to get promoted!
 
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Vers interesting! I wonder

a) what the price tag will be?
b) how you are supposed to sim the patients (perhaps with the same machine, actually)?
Heard <$30 mil. Lower overall cost bc most of the components can fit in a traditional linac vault.

Integrated dual energy CT comes down over patient chair/rotisserie. Used for sim and image guidance.
 
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From my understanding:
- LET can differ within the Bragg peak with carbon ions.
- The RBE can be all over the board, depending on histology.
I think the difference in let with carbon is even greater. Ie 3x the let of the carbon ions in the rest of the field. In liver and small lung fields this may not matter, but should see some smoking rectums.
 
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Pretty bold and amazing what they did even prior to the invention of the CT and MRI.
It's a good post......but, I think it reinforces my general concerns about directly ionizing therapeutic radiation.

First, the time frame of ion therapy. Many aren't aware exactly how old this technology is. Parallels big center particle physics as it emerged in mid 20th century. Ion therapy is old.

The enthusiasm for ion therapy was most justified in the era that preceded the invention of the CT scanner. When therapy was in fact delivered by 1 or 2 beams only with lots of anatomic uncertainty (and photons at Cobalt energies). The energy deposition curves alone would be a remarkable cause for enthusiasm in that era. Those days are long gone, however.

The CT scanner eventually brought with it very high quality, volumetric dosimetry. The interactions of indirectly ionizing photons with living tissue are pretty well understood, and I would argue that we now live in an era where photons can be delivered through a maximum solid angle over minutes, with modulation optimized by millions of iterations, and with a dosimetric certainty (as it effects biologic outcomes) on the order of 5%.

Nothing like this exists for directly ionizing therapy, and it may never exist. As a charged particle slows, it's interactions with living tissue may vary remarkably. It could almost be considered an Uncertainty Principle type of problem. The rest mass of ions that lets them stop abruptly in space, confers highly variable interactions even with subtle changes in the matter that it is interacting with. In other words, we can know their final position with greater certainty than photons (hence the bragg peak) but we lose certainty regarding true BED.

CT scanners helped photons a ton. MRI helps some. These thing cannot help ion therapy to the same degree.
 
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It's a good post......but, I think it reinforces my general concerns about directly ionizing therapeutic radiation.

First, the time frame of ion therapy. Many aren't aware exactly how old this technology is. Parallels big center particle physics as it emerged in mid 20th century. Ion therapy is old.

The enthusiasm for ion therapy was most justified in the era that preceded the invention of the CT scanner. When therapy was in fact delivered by 1 or 2 beams only with lots of anatomic uncertainty (and photons at Cobalt energies). The energy deposition curves alone would be a remarkable cause for enthusiasm in that era. Those days are long gone, however.

The CT scanner eventually brought with it very high quality, volumetric dosimetry. The interactions of indirectly ionizing photons with living tissue are pretty well understood, and I would argue that we now live in an era where photons can be delivered through a maximum solid angle over minutes, with modulation optimized by millions of iterations, and with a dosimetric certainty (as it effects biologic outcomes) on the order of 5%.

Nothing like this exists for directly ionizing therapy, and it may never exist. As a charged particle slows, it's interactions with living tissue may vary remarkably. It could almost be considered an Uncertainty Principle type of problem. The rest mass of ions that lets them stop abruptly in space, confers highly variable interactions even with subtle changes in the matter that it is interacting with. In other words, we can know their final position with greater certainty than photons (hence the bragg peak) but we lose certainty regarding true BED.

CT scanners helped photons a ton. MRI helps some. These thing cannot help ion therapy to the same degree.

Forrest Gump GIF by GrayDuckDent
 
A lot of my patients have been reading about proton therapy on Wikipedia and come in thinking it's this great thing.
So I had a lot of angst around this for a long time. I try very hard to not be overtly "negative" or critical of other doctors or hospitals when I'm talking to patients with whom I have a therapeutic relationship.

With protons...not anymore The volume and nature of advertisements patients are exposed to about protons is insane, and any run-of-the-mill upper middle class prostate cancer patient who asks me about a billboard or internet search gets an unfiltered opinion/rant.
 
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Carbon would have less LET “on the way in” (and in skin cells) than protons right? The high LET would be seen in, around, and at the Bragg peak, and it would be much sharper than protons as much due to Coulombic forces (the carbon being much more positively charged than a proton) as the mass of the carbon ion. I am not a physicist.
There is a bit more nuance. I am pretty sure that on a per particle-track basis, carbon still has more LET on the way in. The difference is that the rise in LET/RBE from entrance -> Bragg peak is so much more dramatic for carbon than proton... so the entrance RBE-weighted dose (not LET) as normalized to the prescription RBE-weighted dose is higher for proton than carbon.
1676842733333.png
 
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There is a bit more nuance. I am pretty sure that on a per particle-track basis, carbon still has more LET on the way in. The difference is that the rise in LET/RBE from entrance -> Bragg peak is so much more dramatic for carbon than proton... so the entrance RBE-weighted dose (not LET) as normalized to the prescription RBE-weighted dose is higher for proton than carbon.
View attachment 366453
So carbon would produce more skin toxicity than seen with protons?
 
It's a good post......but, I think it reinforces my general concerns about directly ionizing therapeutic radiation.

First, the time frame of ion therapy. Many aren't aware exactly how old this technology is. Parallels big center particle physics as it emerged in mid 20th century. Ion therapy is old.

The enthusiasm for ion therapy was most justified in the era that preceded the invention of the CT scanner. When therapy was in fact delivered by 1 or 2 beams only with lots of anatomic uncertainty (and photons at Cobalt energies). The energy deposition curves alone would be a remarkable cause for enthusiasm in that era. Those days are long gone, however.

The CT scanner eventually brought with it very high quality, volumetric dosimetry. The interactions of indirectly ionizing photons with living tissue are pretty well understood, and I would argue that we now live in an era where photons can be delivered through a maximum solid angle over minutes, with modulation optimized by millions of iterations, and with a dosimetric certainty (as it effects biologic outcomes) on the order of 5%.

Nothing like this exists for directly ionizing therapy, and it may never exist. As a charged particle slows, it's interactions with living tissue may vary remarkably. It could almost be considered an Uncertainty Principle type of problem. The rest mass of ions that lets them stop abruptly in space, confers highly variable interactions even with subtle changes in the matter that it is interacting with. In other words, we can know their final position with greater certainty than photons (hence the bragg peak) but we lose certainty regarding true BED.

CT scanners helped photons a ton. MRI helps some. These thing cannot help ion therapy to the same degree.
You are correct.

A major variable in particle therapy is RBE, especially normal tissue RBE, at least on the individual patient level. On the macro/population level, I think over 20,000 patients have now been treated and it works in general for tumor control. There is talk of a randomized trial of sorts in the works for prostate cancer, I think with Mack Roach, Xrays and protons and carbon. In the US, patients would get proton or Xrays, in Japan, carbon or Xrays, I think. Patients in the US will not be randomized to receive a flight to Japan, but actually I think that would help enrollment - I'd like to go see Asia anyway.

Interestingly, Heidelberg is taking a step back from carbon ion and has started treating patients with helium ions. For pediatric patients in particular, the lower entrance RBE of helium ions in normal tissues leading up to the tumor is seen as a potential advantage.

One of the nice things about helium ions is that they have lots of radiobiological data from all the years of alpha particle research, which behave basically the same as the helium ion Bragg peak.

RBE is cooler in the entry zone for helium than carbon ions; the entry RBE for carbon is 1.5 with a rapid rise to 3-4, plus the fragmentation tail of smaller particles as the carbon nucleus breaks apart into boron, beryllium, lithium, helium, deuterium, protons, neutrons, etc. The carbon ions stop on a dime, but its fragments travel a bit further before stopping.

Helium ion's entry RBE is 1 near the skin surface with a delayed rise to 3-4 at the Bragg peak. I've seen comparison plans between carbon and helium where I cannot tell the difference.
 
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There is a bit more nuance. I am pretty sure that on a per particle-track basis, carbon still has more LET on the way in. The difference is that the rise in LET/RBE from entrance -&gt; Bragg peak is so much more dramatic for carbon than proton... so the entrance RBE-weighted dose (not LET) as normalized to the prescription RBE-weighted dose is higher for proton than carbon.
View attachment 366453
Carbon is biologically hotter than protons, both on the way in - RBE 1.5 - and on the way "out" - RBE 3-4, but the physical dose is lower. Potential for more fibrosis in late responding tissues from high RBE, but no head to head comparisons of which I'm aware. Please update if you know of one.

By the way, this lack of large comparison studies is always the case with emerging modalities, like laparoscopic surgery which at first was clumsy and slow and often converted to open. It's true of emerging technology in general. I really like Clayton Christensen's classic book, "The Innovator's Dilemma."

He discusses how at first, doing things differently is always more expensive and/or less efficient, an inferior product in many respects, with less reliability and narrower appeal than the mature technology.

Then, almost out of nowhere, it starts to take off exponentially, first with innovators and early adopters who were willing to pay a high price, and then broader adoption over time as reliability, price and feature set eventally overtake the established product. I really do think price parity is on its way.
 
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Carbon is hotter both on the way in - RBE 1.5 - and on the way out - RBE 3-4. Potential for more fibrosis in late responding tissues.
How is it better on the way out with such a high rbe next to presumably a critical structure at the margin of the ptv?
 
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Carbon is biologically hotter than protons, both on the way in - RBE 1.5 - and on the way "out" - RBE 3-4, but the physical dose is lower. Potential for more fibrosis in late responding tissues from high RBE, but no head to head comparisons of which I'm aware. Please update if you know of one.

By the way, this lack of large comparison studies is always the case with emerging modalities, like laparoscopic surgery which at first was clumsy and slow and often converted to open. It's true of emerging technology in general. I really like Clayton Christensen's classic book, "The Innovator's Dilemma."

He discusses how at first, doing things differently is always more expensive and/or less efficient, an inferior product in many respects, with less reliability and narrower appeal than the mature technology.

Then, almost out of nowhere, it starts to take off exponentially, first with innovators and early adopters who were willing to pay a high price, and then broader adoption over time as reliability, price and feature set eventally overtake the established product. I really do think price parity is on its way.
I see the comparison between laparoscopic/open and photons/particles as very very different. Many less unknown unknowns with laparoscopic.
 
So carbon would produce more skin toxicity than seen with protons?
No, less… but it’s because the Bragg peak is taller, relative to the plateau. The LET is sill higher than protons in the plateau but you need far less physical dose because the RBE in the target region is almost 3x higher than protons… so the effective entrance dose would be less with carbon but LET would still be higher. Hope that makes sense.
 
I don't see any of the ion therapies ultimately defeating photons for effectiveness v 'cost' both financially and biologically.

But, while we figure it out, there will be some serious cash made.

Working Small Business GIF by QuickBooks
 
How is it better on the way out with such a high rbe next to presumably a critical structure at the margin of the ptv?
You are correct. You don't want high RBE outside the tumor.

The way that particle therapy is done today does put the hottest RBE of the leading Bragg peak into normal tissue just outside the PTV.

To compensate for this, carbon ion planning computers use a variable RBE model, so that the physical dose is scaled down in proportion to RBE rise, to get a uniform total dose. However, current proton planning computers do not do this, at least not the commercial solutions like Varian or Raystation - but it is on the way. Raystation has a script that can convert LET x physical dose into RBE dose, using an LET/RBE formula that the user (me) would specify.

TG-256 advises that for now, just to be cautious, variable proton RBE should be utilized in a way that won't under-estimate the dose to normal tissues (like spinal cord) or over-estimate the dose to tumor, as compared to a constant RBE of 1.1.
 
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You are absolutely correct. You don't want high RBE given outside the tumor.

The way that particle therapy is done today does put the hottest RBE of the leading Bragg peak into normal tissue just outside the PTV, within normal tissue.

To compensate for this, carbon ion planning computers use a variable RBE model, so that the physical dose is scaled down in proportion to RBE rise, to get a uniform total dose. However, current proton planning computers do not do this, at least not the commercial solutions like Varian or Raystation - but it is on the way. Raystation has a script that can covert LET dose into RBE dose, using an LET/RBE scale.

TG-256 advises that for now, variable proton RBE should be calculated in a way that won't under-estimate the dose to normal tissues (like spinal cord) or over-estimate the dose to tumor, so that you don't accidentally give more to OARs and less to tumor than you would under a constant RBE of 1.1.

Why are we treating folks with protons then?
 
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You are correct. You don't want high RBE outside the tumor.

The way that particle therapy is done today does put the hottest RBE of the leading Bragg peak into normal tissue just outside the PTV.

To compensate for this, carbon ion planning computers use a variable RBE model, so that the physical dose is scaled down in proportion to RBE rise, to get a uniform total dose. However, current proton planning computers do not do this, at least not the commercial solutions like Varian or Raystation - but it is on the way. Raystation has a script that can convert LET x physical dose into RBE dose, using an LET/RBE formula that the user (me) would specify.

TG-256 advises that for now, just to be cautious, variable proton RBE should be utilized in a way that won't under-estimate the dose to normal tissues (like spinal cord) or over-estimate the dose to tumor, as compared to a constant RBE of 1.1.
Another trick is to do arc therapy, rotating the patient in their chair, and pointing all the high-RBE spots so they terminate inside the GTV, and the low-RBE portion covers the PTV and outlying normal tissues. Basically it's RBE-dose-painting to create a simultaneous integrated biological boost. The RBE boost effect could be as high as 25% for protons and 200-300% for heavier ions, with RBE =1 in periphery, 3 in the core for helium or carbon. It's not a perfect analogy, but like sperm lining up outside an egg is how you want your particle beams arranged.

Sperm and egg.gif
 
All these “insights” about planning and uncertainties re particle therapy sure do make me frightened to use on my patients. Or on my mom or dad. I am glad we have brave rad oncs willing to try these treatments and software/calculation updates on real people and “see how it turns out.”
 
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Another trick is to do arc therapy, rotating the patient in their chair, and pointing all the high-RBE spots so they terminate inside the GTV, and the low-RBE portion covers the PTV and outlying normal tissues. Basically it's RBE-dose-painting to create a simultaneous integrated biological boost. The RBE boost effect could be as high as 25% for protons and 200-300% for heavier ions, with RBE =1 in periphery, 3 in the core for helium or carbon. It's not a perfect analogy, but like sperm lining up outside an egg is how you want your particle beams arranged.

View attachment 366488
often there are important critical structures in the center of the ctv- urethra, throat etc
 
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All these “insights” about planning and uncertainties re particle therapy sure do make me frightened to use on my patients. Or on my mom or dad. I am glad we have brave rad oncs willing to try these treatments and software/calculation updates on real people and “see how it turns out.”
Do no harm.

Of course, we all know that it is OK to do harm in times of desperation. The potentially life saving but high risk surgery, or in our field, re-irradiation for aggressive head and neck and thoracic malignancies.

But to potentially do harm for a dosimetric benefit that remains uncertain, for apparently relatively small benefits regarding low grade acute toxicity or rare late 2nd malignancies?

Even in the research setting, potential harm needs to be weighed against potential benefit. The first artificial heart transplant was horrific (the patient was a doctor (appropriate) if I recall, who had clear eyes in signing consent). The potential gain associated with developing a safe artificial heart transplant is enormous however.

I'm fine with us killing some folks with CRISPR (harsh language I know).

But, what is the potential holy grail of ion therapy? There are intrinsic uncertainties here as there are with photon therapy. There will never be perfect conformality with infinite dose escalation. Ions are vanishingly unlikely to markedly move the dial regarding overall cancer survival on a population basis.

ASTRO should really sponsor a seminar on "The moral questions regarding the use of novel ion technologies". Seems to me that all ion patients should be treated on clinical trial. Maybe next year.
 
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You are correct. You don't want high RBE outside the tumor.

The way that particle therapy is done today does put the hottest RBE of the leading Bragg peak into normal tissue just outside the PTV.
This is the heart of the problem. And particle therapy is so much more sensitive to setup uncertainties, changes in body contour etc.
 
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All these “insights” about planning and uncertainties re particle therapy sure do make me frightened to use on my patients. Or on my mom or dad. I am glad we have brave rad oncs willing to try these treatments and software/calculation updates on real people and “see how it turns out.”
What's a rib fracture or some ORN between friends...
 
Do no harm.

Of course, we all know that it is OK to do harm in times of desperation. The potentially life saving but high risk surgery, or in our field, re-irradiation for aggressive head and neck and thoracic malignancies.

But to potentially do harm for a dosimetric benefit that remains uncertain, for apparently relatively small benefits regarding low grade acute toxicity or rare late 2nd malignancies?

Even in the research setting, potential harm needs to be weighed against potential benefit. The first artificial heart transplant was horrific (the patient was a doctor (appropriate) if I recall, who had clear eyes in signing consent). The potential gain associated with developing a safe artificial heart transplant is enormous however.

I'm fine with us killing some folks with CRISPR (harsh language I know).

But, what is the potential holy grail of ion therapy? There are intrinsic uncertainties here as there are with photon therapy. There will never be perfect conformality with infinite dose escalation. Ions are vanishingly unlikely to markedly move the dial regarding overall cancer survival on a population basis.

ASTRO should really sponsor a seminar on "The moral questions regarding the use of novel ion technologies". Seems to me that all ion patients should be treated on clinical trial. Maybe next year.
You make an excellent point.

The first artificial heart patient in 1982 was Dr Barney Clark, a dentist from Seattle with severe CHF who lived for 112 days, confined to the hospital and attached to machines 24/7 before dying of massive multiple organ failure. Was this a medical failure or a success?

His hospital bill for 112 days and the research expenses to bring a product to that stage of development were in the millions of dollars. Was this a colossal waste of time, money, and resources, or a wise social investment in a novel approach for an incurable disease?

40 years later, I think it's still too early to tell.
 
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You make an excellent point.

The first artificial heart patient in 1982 was Dr Barney Clark, a dentist from Seattle with severe CHF who lived for 112 days, confined to the hospital and attached to machines 24/7 before dying of massive multiple organ failure. Was this a medical failure or a success?

His hospital bill for 112 days and the research expenses to bring a product to that stage of development were in the millions of dollars. Was this a colossal waste of time, money, and resources, or a wise social investment in a novel approach for an incurable disease?

40 years later, I think it's still too early to tell.
Hmm. Almost sounding like ChatGPT with prompts like, “respond to this post while sounding conciliatory and defending long term research investment in ions”.

AI advocacy of ions in a message board?
 
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You make an excellent point.

The first artificial heart patient in 1982 was Dr Barney Clark, a dentist from Seattle with severe CHF who lived for 112 days, confined to the hospital and attached to machines 24/7 before dying of massive multiple organ failure. Was this a medical failure or a success?

His hospital bill for 112 days and the research expenses to bring a product to that stage of development were in the millions of dollars. Was this a colossal waste of time, money, and resources, or a wise social investment in a novel approach for an incurable disease?

40 years later, I think it's still too early to tell.

This is a silly analogy for many reasons, but also the first proton patient was treated like 30 years before this story.

Were not quite at regulatory capture with protons, but were basically there.
 
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Hmm. Almost sounding like ChatGPT with prompts like, “respond to this post while sounding conciliatory and defending long term research investment in ions”.

AI advocacy of ions in a message board?
"As an AI, I have certain limitations and may occasionally generate incorrect information, produce harmful instructions, or biased content...especially about protons and ion therapy"

Yep, that's me
 
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