Was anyone NOT published before applying to grad school?

[Kushkeeee]

Just curious. I'm applying to clinical psych programs and I"m worried because although I've done research, I've never been published or gone to an APA convention.

Just curious how many other people out there are in the same boat.

koosh

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[twiggers]

I'll join this ship I stressed out about it for a long time.....I even thought aboutn grabbing an undergrad group project research paper I did and trying to publish it in a student journal, but decided against it.
I'll be doing an honors thesis and will submit an abstract (if I get that far before deadlines) with my application.
Hoping that strong letters of rec from a couple very well-known autistic researchers (who are also psychiatry professors at med school) will help bump me over.
And of course praying that I do well on GREs.

 

[kaylie]

I am currently a first year clinical psychology student and I did not have any publications when I applied, yet I snagged interviews and got into the program I wanted the most. Many (and maybe most) of my classmates do not have publications either.

Rest assured that you probably have a better chance of being admitted than you think.

 

[PublicHealth]

There are A LOT of clinical psychology graduate students without publications. However, most have had some research experience, which has allowed them to become familiar with the research process. This is important. Getting your name on a couple papers is icing on the cake, so to speak.

If you're currently working in a research group, simply ask your advisor if you could get involved in the manuscript process. Indicate that you're willing to do literature reviews, write certain sections, prepare tables/graphs, etc. You may also want to mention that you would do this on your own time, so that this work does not interfere with your regular RA duties, which is likely why you were hired in the first place.

 

[JattMed]

Hoping that strong letters of rec from a couple very well-known autistic researchers (who are also psychiatry professors at med school) will help bump me over.
And of course praying that I do well on GREs.

Okay I think you will never get in by using references from AUTISTIC researchers.
It is amazing how they can actually concentrate enough to do research. What happens when their local environment is altered-do they have a fit and start rocking back and forth?

 

[JattMed]

Wanna get published?
Do a review article on an a new/burgeoning field of research.
A well written critical analysis is a great publication if you dont have any original research of your own!
Thank me when you get it in!

 

[PublicHealth]

Wanna get published?
Do a review article on an a new/burgeoning field of research.
A well written critical analysis is a great publication if you dont have any original research of your own!
Thank me when you get it in!

I highly doubt that a mainstream academic journal would accept a review article written by an undergraduate (unless co-authored by a recognized expert in the field). Review articles are typically written/co-authored by experts in a respective discipline or solicited by journal editors. The latter is especially true in the case of new/burgeoning fields of research.

 

[JattMed]

I highly doubt that a mainstream academic journal would accept a review article written by an undergraduate (unless co-authored by a recognized expert in the field). Review articles are typically written/co-authored by experts in a respective discipline or solicited by journal editors. The latter is especially true in the case of new/burgeoning fields of research.

I know of some people that have done so without any coauthors-however they were first and second year med students.
I dont know if an undergrad may be able to pull it off but it is worth a shot. Submitting a paper cannot hurt-ya never know

 

[JRB]

You might be surprised about what a journal would and would not consider, and won't know unless you try. If you already know that you write well, then contact the journal editor first and ask if they would consider reviewing a manuscript on your topic. There are ways to maximize your chances; for example choosing a journal that is not so competitive. We just had a student get herself "invited" to submit a review article to a less competitive journal. Be sure to carefully read the scope of the journal, to see if your topic fits within their goals and readership.

Also, if you feel you are fairly competitive for a particular graduate school, another option at some places is to enter in a "non-degree" status. Once there, the FIRST thing you do is volunteer to assist with a professor's research. Then do an exceptionally good job while you also impress them with your academic performance. People often like to place sure bets. There's nothing much worse than giving away a slot to a student, and then having it turn out badly.

JRB

 

[PublicHealth]

You might be surprised about what a journal would and would not consider, and won't know unless you try. If you already know that you write well, then contact the journal editor first and ask if they would consider reviewing a manuscript on your topic. There are ways to maximize your chances; for example choosing a journal that is not so competitive. We just had a student get herself "invited" to submit a review article to a less competitive journal. Be sure to carefully read the scope of the journal, to see if your topic fits within their goals and readership.

Also, if you feel you are fairly competitive for a particular graduate school, another option at some places is to enter in a "non-degree" status. Once there, the FIRST thing you do is volunteer to assist with a professor's research. Then do an exceptionally good job while you also impress them with your academic performance. People often like to place sure bets. There's nothing much worse than giving away a slot to a student, and then having it turn out badly.

JRB

 

[lazure]

Also, if you feel you are fairly competitive for a particular graduate school, another option at some places is to enter in a "non-degree" status. Once there, the FIRST thing you do is volunteer to assist with a professor's research. Then do an exceptionally good job while you also impress them with your academic performance. People often like to place sure bets. There's nothing much worse than giving away a slot to a student, and then having it turn out badly.

Personally, I'd prefer to go to a different school as a 'real' student', particularly for funding and credibility issues. As far as I know, we don't have this 'non-degree' status in Canada - what exactly is it? It sounds like free labour for me.....

 

[50960]

Why should any bright student feel the need to work for free and lick the boots of some beurocrat to get into a certain school. If your goal is to get in to a certain school it should be because of their success, their great research program in whatever interests you etc... not just to get in so you can say you go to blah-blah school. Pick a school you will be happy at, and make the most of your training when you get it. Everyone gets the same license, and everyone learns alot more about being a psychologist once they have done it for a few years than what they learned in school.

 

[JRB]

Why should any bright student feel the need to work for free and lick the boots of some beurocrat to get into a certain school. If your goal is to get in to a certain school it should be because of their success, their great research program in whatever interests you etc... not just to get in so you can say you go to blah-blah school. Pick a school you will be happy at, and make the most of your training when you get it. Everyone gets the same license, and everyone learns alot more about being a psychologist once they have done it for a few years than what they learned in school.

A truly bright student would not see this as "licking boots" but as a win-win situation... it's an opportunity to gain valuable research experience and one-on-one education by working directly with a professor, and at the same time drastically cutting the competition for limited slots. If a student stands out early on, opportunities are often afforded that other students don't get.

You are correct... everyone gets the same license. But not everyone looks as competitive on paper. The goal is to get admitted. That was my point.

JRB

 

[JRB]

Personally, I'd prefer to go to a different school as a 'real' student', particularly for funding and credibility issues. As far as I know, we don't have this 'non-degree' status in Canada - what exactly is it? It sounds like free labour for me.....

Not all students get admitted the first go around. Some students might not have quite a high enough GRE for admission to the program, but high enough to be admitted to the graduate school. Some students may not have completed prereq's in time for admission to the program that Fall, but would be ready by the next academic year, and don't want to wait to start getting their hours met.

It's not at all unusual that credible, APA approved graduate programs will allow students to take up to X number of hours under a "non-degree" seeking status. When the student gets admitted, these hours are then transferred to their degree plan.

Funding would be an issue, but it's my experience that students under some circumstances find this route to be the most beneficial for them in the long run.

Interesting that you and others would conceptualize this as free labor. The time that I invest in personally mentoring "non-degree seeking" students is not free. From my side of things, it's a valuable investment, but with no guarantee that the student will decide to stay or decide to remain with me as their major advisor.

JRB

 

[50960]

I agree that if you are going the academic/research route then what is on paper etc.. is the best thing you can have...same for publications. However, if your goal is to be a clinical practitioner, and to treat people it matters very little. It still may be good experience to go these routes if one can afford such an endeavor. Remember the best post-docs/residency programs pay the least. In Ca you can get hired on at 50-60k yr as a new grad if you go with a state facility (hospital, prison etc..). You will never get to have the title of some fancy residency on your CV, but if your goal is to be a good practitioner then it is a great training ground..and is a livable wage!

 

[JRB]

I agree that if you are going the academic/research route then what is on paper etc.. is the best thing you can have...same for publications. However, if your goal is to be a clinical practitioner, and to treat people it matters very little. It still may be good experience to go these routes if one can afford such an endeavor. Remember the best post-docs/residency programs pay the least. In Ca you can get hired on at 50-60k yr as a new grad if you go with a state facility (hospital, prison etc..). You will never get to have the title of some fancy residency on your CV, but if your goal is to be a good practitioner then it is a great training ground..and is a livable wage!

Keep in mind that APA-approved interships are becoming also more and more competitive. Anything that a student can do to stand out during graduate school is becoming more important.

Also, I emphasize a program of research during graduate training for another reason of practicality as well. Whatever you can do to establish yourself as an expert in a particular field will ultimately make you more competitive in the job market. As less students are wanting to go into private practice, anticipate more competition for employment.

If a hospital wants to hire a psychologist for their stroke rehabiliation team, and has to choose between a graduate with the general practicum and internship experience versus one with the same general experience but who also has publications and presentations in the area of cerebrovascular disease, stroke, geriatrics, etc... well, you get the idea.

Practicality aside...

From the perspective of many psychologists, the education a student gets by doing research goes well beyond the idea that someone might actually do research. It teaches students critical and integrative thinking skills. The ability for advanced thinking of this type is the basic tool of the well-trained psychologist.. it doesn't matter if the student becomes a researcher or a clinician.

Advanced thinking skills are required in order to accurately conceptualize a person. This unique ability to conceptualize people is what the field of clinical psychology is all about. This emphasis in training is what has separated us from the medical model of mental health that is predominately practiced by physicians, due to the nature of their training.

Not to mention, that we need to be able to keep up with the literature so that we can practice responsibly.


JRB

 

[50960]

Yes, I agree with you about all that. I guess my point is that you learn alot more about all those things by getting out there and being challenged in the real world. School gives you a foundation only. I have forgotten alot of stuff I learned in school, and I have learned (both didactically and experientially) much more since graduation than I did in school. APA and all that stuff is all show and no substance. I agree that to a degree people are judged by the perks on their CV, but I guarantee you most people would hire a job-proven (publications, extra training etc..) psychologist who has had to work to get those qualifications over someone who has a flashy CV because they kissed the right butt or got a great opportunity to fill a PC qouta. APA is much more about PC than good psychology..that is my bias I guess. There are 25 psychologists on the medical staff at the hospital I work at, and some of the most challenged graduated 4.0 from an APA school with a flashy internship, but no clue....
I think we agree....

 

[PsychMode]

Yes, I agree with you about all that. I guess my point is that you learn alot more about all those things by getting out there and being challenged in the real world. School gives you a foundation only. I have forgotten alot of stuff I learned in school, and I have learned (both didactically and experientially) much more since graduation than I did in school. APA and all that stuff is all show and no substance. I agree that to a degree people are judged by the perks on their CV, but I guarantee you most people would hire a job-proven (publications, extra training etc..) psychologist who has had to work to get those qualifications over someone who has a flashy CV because they kissed the right butt or got a great opportunity to fill a PC qouta. APA is much more about PC than good psychology..that is my bias I guess. There are 25 psychologists on the medical staff at the hospital I work at, and some of the most challenged graduated 4.0 from an APA school with a flashy internship, but no clue....
I think we agree....

What does graduating with a 4.0 from an APA school and performing successfully at an internship have to do with "political correctness?" I'd rather see someone get a job that way than relying on their connections. And if someone has just graduated they should at least to get to have the real world experience required to have a "clue." I don't know of any school that claims that their clinical program trains graduates who need no further learning or education.

Actually, what I really care about is what other ideas you guys have for publishing. Reviews were mentioned, particularly for student journals or less competitive journals. Has anyone here done or know of anyone who has done a small project on their own and was able to get it published (later helping them get into clinical)? I have some research experience (minimal actually) but that is something I seriously need to work on in terms of a PhD program. I've heard (and possibly read here, as well) that doing a scaled down version of a senior or master's thesis can help, though that would probably delay admission due to early admission deadlines for clinical programs.

My undergrad GPA was pretty embarrassing and I'm hoping that my current graduate GPA counts for something. My GRE scores are in the 1200s and I hear that is competitive for many schools. There are a few schools that I am very interested in. They do not include UCLA, Berkeley, Wisconsin or Yale but they are most definitely exciting to me as well as APA approved and decently ranked. But I can see that I have an uphill battle ahead of me.

 

[JRB]

Actually, what I really care about is what other ideas you guys have for publishing. Reviews were mentioned, particularly for student journals or less competitive journals.

If you are planning to do a samll project and submit it on your own for publication, remember to inquire as to turn around time. Journals can have up to a 1 year delay to print, and sometimes a 6 month delay for the review. You will not be allowed to submit your manuscript anywhere else while it is being reviewed. You can also ask about their rates of acceptance, which will give you a better idea of your chances.

Another option would be to submit your abstract for presentation at a national convention. The abstracts are often published afterward in the organizations journal. This is not as good as a publication, but if time is at issue it will at least show that you are already successfully engaging in scholarly activity and beginning to establish a record of productivity.

Many of these posters can easily be written up and submitted for full publication, so then you might also show that it has at least been submitted and to which journal.

You might check to see if any professors you know have an existing data base from which you could develop a quick project. I happen to have 4 large data bases, and am always willing to have a student develop a project off of these. We can generally put together a project from start to finish for abstract submission within 2 days. The length of time it takes to get a manuscript ready for submission depends mostly on the student's skill level and their own motivation. (BTW... this is another of those win-win situations; I give the student first authorship but I get authorship credit for the time I put in assisting the student). Clarify ahead of time order of authorship, though.

JRB

 

[sunny22]

I am currently a first year clinical psychology student and I did not have any publications when I applied, yet I snagged interviews and got into the program I wanted the most. Many (and maybe most) of my classmates do not have publications either.

Rest assured that you probably have a better chance of being admitted than you think.

Hi Kaylie,

I am just wondering if you can talk a little bit about the research experience you had when you started your application process. I am searching for RA positions and having a difficult time getting responses at all. So much so, I am thinking about looking at other psych PhD programs, like school psych. But, I am really interested to hear how other people prepared for the application process.

Thanks so much!

 

[twiggers]

I have an RA position, and am a senior in undergrad right now. I got on my psychology deptartmet listserv and responded to an ad. I got my second one through my school's internship department, and my third one I got through the psychology department at school....profs are always looking for free help. Ask your TAs in your psych classes, they usually welcome free help...good way to get letters of rec too.

 

[kaylie]

Hi Kaylie,

I am just wondering if you can talk a little bit about the research experience you had when you started your application process. I am searching for RA positions and having a difficult time getting responses at all. So much so, I am thinking about looking at other psych PhD programs, like school psych. But, I am really interested to hear how other people prepared for the application process.

Thanks so much!

Hi Sunny22,

In my second year of undergrad, I responded to a plea for RAs in a developmental lab at my school. They interviewed and selected a few RAs and I stayed on that lab for about 3.5 years before applying for clinical programs. Along the way, I did brief volunteering for other research labs. I also did an honors thesis that I was working on submitting for publication and I indicated this on my CV. I definitely believe that my extensive work with the developmental lab gave me sterling recommendation letters, which helped me tremendously in the application process.

I'm really sorry to hear that you've been having so much problems securing an RA position. Fortunately for me, opportunities were presented to me and I jumped on them. Perhaps you could search for research opportunities outside of psychology? It may sound counterintuitive, but I think the research experience you obtain is mainly for you to be exposed to the process of research. I have zero developmental interests, so my experiences had little to do with with my actual research interests. Also, could you do an undergraduate project or thesis? That is ideal because you are essentially doing independent research.

If you have any other questions, let me know. Good luck with everything... I know how scary and uncertain the whole process could be. I spent a lot of time freaking out about not getting accepted anywhere. If I can help allay some of your fears, I would be happy to