"We like you!" Phone calls and Emails from Residency Directors

[futuredrpsych]

Has anyone heard from Brown, Northwestern, NYU, Harvard Longwood, Sinai or Duke?

I heard from Sinai yesterday (call). Only other one I applied to on your list was Longwood and I haven't heard anything.

edit: didn't see Brown at first, applied there but haven't heard anything. and heard from longwood within a week after this post

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[Superpsych]

The whole point is that this change in feelings is really pretty unconscious, even if you're suspicious about your own motivations. New information is bound to change your feelings, and when so much of this decision is based on your gut, it's hard to know why your gut feels a certain way. Maybe it's because something about program X seems like less of a good fit over time, but maybe it's because they didn't send you a letter about being ranked to match, and maybe it's not. We're complicated critters.

It's pretty much like watching the Bachelor. The Bachelor is pretty influenced by how much he thinks the girls are in to him as well. There's no way Sean would be so into Tierra (the borderline with the dent in her head) if he didn't get the feeling from day one that she was drilling her eyes into his, um, brain. He just let Selma go because he figured out she was way too narcissistic to ever like him as much as he likes himself (even though most guys would probably say she was a standard deviation above most of the others in hotness).


*cue comment from Vistaril about something "manly.*

Don't worry, V, I only watch The Bachelor with an assault rifle across my lap while eating raw buffalo meat that I caught with my bare hands in the alley behind the strip club.


We're not rational beings, but as psychiatrists we're a little bit more navel gazing and tend to think about this stuff more than others. Of course no one should CONSCIOUSLY make a change in your ROL based on post-interview feedback, but unless you're Mr Spock, it's awfully hard to assess your true motivations around your decisions.

Oh I laughed so hard when you started talking about the Bachelor! My wife is addicted to that stuff and it is sad I understood what you said. I enjoy Psychiatry because we are complex critters

 

[Superpsych]

In my >15 years doing this (as a APD and a PD) I have never seen a case where a lack of a letter or a luke warm email hurt somebody's ranking. We are all pressed for time. For us knowing who really wants to come to our program helps us focus our attention on the critical part of our list (where is the last ranked person going to be) so that we can make sure that we get the applicants in the order that we want them. For example if it appears that I will likely be going down to the #30 spot on my list in order to fill my program, I do not want to be spending time deciding if a person is really number 10 or #11. Instead I want to be spending my time studying the applications of #28, 29, 30, 31, and 32 to make sure I get the order correct.

So you look at all the applications around 30 in your example; to pick who will be 30?

 

[OldPsychDoc]

In my >15 years doing this (as a APD and a PD) I have never seen a case where a lack of a letter or a luke warm email hurt somebody's ranking. We are all pressed for time. For us knowing who really wants to come to our program helps us focus our attention on the critical part of our list (where is the last ranked person going to be) so that we can make sure that we get the applicants in the order that we want them. For example if it appears that I will likely be going down to the #30 spot on my list in order to fill my program, I do not want to be spending time deciding if a person is really number 10 or #11. Instead I want to be spending my time studying the applications of #28, 29, 30, 31, and 32 to make sure I get the order correct.

The problem is, it's just dashedly hard to predict if that point is going to be at #20, #30, or #50. It feels like we might have a better chance of sticking within our top 25 this year--but you just never really know.

 

[kindasorta]

So you look at all the applications around 30 in your example; to pick who will be 30?

Sounds like a lot of attention is going to be focused on ME.

 

[psychattending]

So you look at all the applications around 30 in your example; to pick who will be 30?

Yes, we would study the applications of the people that are clumped around 30 to make sure we have the order as best as we can get it for our last person The question we ask ourselves is whether we would rather have #28 or #29, etc. If we really prefer #29, then we flip the order.

 

[psychattending]

The problem is, it's just dashedly hard to predict if that point is going to be at #20, #30, or #50. It feels like we might have a better chance of sticking within our top 25 this year--but you just never really know.

Agreed it can be hard but we usually can predict within a certain area where we are going to end up. We then spend the bulk of our time studying that area of the list. We do look at the other parts to make sure we get the broad outlines correct.

 

[Superpsych]

Yes, we would study the applications of the people that are clumped around 30 to make sure we have the order as best as we can get it for our last person The question we ask ourselves is whether we would rather have #28 or #29, etc. If we really prefer #29, then we flip the order.

For an example: say you have 8 open slots this year is it fairly easy to choose those first 8 people? What is the most difficult aspect of organizing your ROL?

Thank you for answering my questions; I do not really know how it works on your end.

 

[psychattending]

For an example: say you have 8 open slots this year is it fairly easy to choose those first 8 people? What is the most difficult aspect of organizing your ROL?

Thank you for answering my questions; I do not really know how it works on your end.

The process on my side is similar to the process on the medical student's side. I do not choose people. After interviewing all the applicants I order them in the order of preference. The main difference is that I have to Match more than one person (a student just matches to one program). Thus, I keep going down my list until I get all my slots filled. If I had 8 slots, then I would need to get 8 people. My impression is that most programs interview something like 7-10x more applicants than positions. Thus, if I had 8 slots, we are talking about interviewing 60-80 people and then ranking them. Obviously, the first 8 people can be in any order. Some of my really high people I am not going to get because in general if they are that strong then every program they applied to will also have them high up on their list. Where they go ends up being driven by the order on the applicant's list. If I know from feedback who is likely to be putting me down as #1, then I can focus my efforts in a certain part of the list where I believe the eighth person might be and make sure I get that order as good as I can get it. There is no magic formula. We just try to weigh all aspects of each person's application and try and decide who we would more prefer.

 

[vistaril]

For an example: say you have 8 open slots this year is it fairly easy to choose those first 8 people? What is the most difficult aspect of organizing your ROL?

Thank you for answering my questions; I do not really know how it works on your end.

It's also important to note that in many cases well thought of programs may go a lot farther down their list than some backwards poorly thought of community program....this is due completely to the different pools of people they are interviewing.

 

[Superpsych]

The process on my side is similar to the process on the medical student's side. I do not choose people. After interviewing all the applicants I order them in the order of preference. The main difference is that I have to Match more than one person (a student just matches to one program). Thus, I keep going down my list until I get all my slots filled. If I had 8 slots, then I would need to get 8 people. My impression is that most programs interview something like 7-10x more applicants than positions. Thus, if I had 8 slots, we are talking about interviewing 60-80 people and then ranking them. Obviously, the first 8 people can be in any order. Some of my really high people I am not going to get because in general if they are that strong then every program they applied to will also have them high up on their list. Where they go ends up being driven by the order on the applicant's list. If I know from feedback who is likely to be putting me down as #1, then I can focus my efforts in a certain part of the list where I believe the eighth person might be and make sure I get that order as good as I can get it. There is no magic formula. We just try to weigh all aspects of each person's application and try and decide who we would more prefer.

So how do you place say the first 20-30? Is it as you said before (position 10 we look at 8, 9, 10, 11, 12)?

 

[RedSox87]

How many programs is safe for a psych applicant to rank? assuming they are a good applicant and us medical grad. I've heard around 5 is safe. Anyone have any ideas?

 

[xlithiumx]

How many programs is safe for a psych applicant to rank? assuming they are a good applicant and us medical grad. I've heard around 5 is safe. Anyone have any ideas?

You should review the charting outcomes in the match document put out by NRMP. You should look at the mean contiguous ranks for psychiatry. I think it is in the area of 6 to 8 programs or so.

 

[Firewood]

I would rank every program you interviewed at unless there is a strong reason not to. Why risk an even small chance of not matching?

 

[member2721]

I heard from Sinai yesterday (call). Only other one I applied to on your list was Longwood and I haven't heard anything.

Longwood called today.

 

[shan564]

I don't understand the rationale behind not ranking a place, unless you think you'd rather scramble than match there.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

I don't understand the rationale behind not ranking a place, unless you think you'd rather scramble than match there.

That's the bottom line. If you'd rather scramble or be unemployed for a year than be bound to accept a job at that program, then Do Not Rank. If a program is not ideal for you, but better than nothing, then put as your last resort. Rank the rest according to your preference, certify your list, and engage in the prayer/sacrifice rituals of your choice.

May the Odds be in your Favor.

 

[m1345]

I also heard from longwood.
Has anyone heard from mgh?

 

[RedSox87]

Thank you for the advice...exciting times.

 

[member2721]

I also heard from longwood.
Has anyone heard from mgh?

Just post interview email correspondence.

 

[slickster032]

Anyone hear from UW-Seattle?

 

[digitlnoize]

You are my favorite reference-making comment writer, OPD.

Had a patient today who incorporated Katniss into her delusion. She said, "Katniss is in the TV, but not the TV here, just the TV at home." I was the only one who had any idea what she was talking about. Sigh.

 

[Portnoy]

Anyone hear from UW-Seattle?

I thought that Dr. Cowley mentioned specifically that they would not be sending out "love letters" or other post interview correspondence like that.

 

[LEdaddy]

I also heard from longwood.
Has anyone heard from mgh?

It will be interesting to see how aggressive the MGH love correspondence is now that Kathy S. is gone. She was one of the most dogged PD's when it came to calling before the ROL was submitted. Emails and voicemail messages galore. She definitely had me second guessing myself about not ranking MGH #1.

 

[slickster032]

I thought that Dr. Cowley mentioned specifically that they would not be sending out "love letters" or other post interview correspondence like that.

Ah gotcha, she must have forgotten to tell our group that. Thanks for letting me know!!

 

[m1345]

It will be interesting to see how aggressive the MGH love correspondence is now that Kathy S. is gone. She was one of the most dogged PD's when it came to calling before the ROL was submitted. Emails and voicemail messages galore. She definitely had me second guessing myself about not ranking MGH #1.

Oh this is very interesting!! And may put my mind at ease... I remember some post somewhere that suggested that someone had been "strongly recruited by MGH"...maybe this was Kathy Sanders' doing!

 

[cooldoc23]

Is there any point of emailing a program director and hinting that you will rank them highly?

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Is there any point of emailing a program director and hinting that you will rank them highly?

No. Because, frankly, we've already decided about you, and we'll either respond by thinking:

a) "great--maybe we'll match them!",
b) "well--'highly'-- I guess that means we're not their first choice. Oh well...",
c) "they're probably lying...but they don't want to offend me",
or
d) "they're so desperate...I hope they match someplace--just not here.".

But none of those thoughts will actually change where you are on our rank list.

Still, it's common courtesy to express appreciation, and if you liked a program and enjoyed your interview day, then by all means, send us a brief, sincere thank you. Just no need to drop hints or embellish your interest to extremes, OK?

 

[LucidDreaming]

Are programs done sending their post-interview love?? =)

 

[member2111]

I thought that Dr. Cowley mentioned specifically that they would not be sending out "love letters" or other post interview correspondence like that.

What if you write to Dr. Crowley first?

 

[FLpk1girl86]

Hey!
So, I have gotten a few phone calls and emails from some programs, essentially saying "we like you! We are going to rank you well!". Unfortunately, I haven't gotten any of those from my top programs.
I was wondering, in everyone else's experience - are there programs that tend to send those out? Are there programs that do not? What programs have you heard from so far?
Should I be worried that I haven't heard from my top 5?
I apologize for my type-A anxiety kicking into high gear.

No programs have contacted me after the interview, I've contacted the ones I liked best though. Would you mind sharing which programs you have and have not heard from? PM me!

No. Because, frankly, we've already decided about you, and we'll either respond by thinking:

a) "great--maybe we'll match them!",
b) "well--'highly'-- I guess that means we're not their first choice. Oh well...",
c) "they're probably lying...but they don't want to offend me",
or
d) "they're so desperate...I hope they match someplace--just not here.".

But none of those thoughts will actually change where you are on our rank list.

Still, it's common courtesy to express appreciation, and if you liked a program and enjoyed your interview day, then by all means, send us a brief, sincere thank you. Just no need to drop hints or embellish your interest to extremes, OK?

I've sent sincere thank you notes to my favorite programs, and for the top 2, program directors have replied right away, one just said she thinks i'm "very qualified" and the other said that i "made a good impression". Are these generic phrases that directors might use to reply to interested applicants, or can I read a little more into them? Just to occupy myself for the next few weeks, at least.

 

[member2721]

No programs have contacted me after the interview, I've contacted the ones I liked best though. Would you mind sharing which programs you have and have not heard from? PM me!

Programs tend not to contact you spontaneously. PDs in general are so busy during rank time that they simply don't have enough time to go down the list and contact everyone. My sense is that, for a program to contact you spontaneously, a PD or APD call if you are 'ranked to match' or pretty high on their list. Otherwise, they will not bother to call or email you to recruit, even if you are at a level where it is typical for an applicant to match based on previous years.

I sent generic thank you letters to my top 2/3rd programs within the week or so after the interview, including 'love letters' to 6 programs, and further contacted my top 4 programs post-interview trail.

To be transparent, these are the programs I have heard from:
a. Ranked to match: MGH, NYU, Sinai
b. Highly regarded (received call or PD email): Yale, Penn, Longwood, Stanford, Cornell, Columbia
c. More than generic email: UMass, UCSD, AECOM
d. Minimal contact (generic email): UW
e. No response (even to thank you letter): Hopkins, CHA

one just said she thinks i'm "very qualified" and the other said that i "made a good impression". Are these generic phrases that directors might use to reply to interested applicants, or can I read a little more into them?

It depends on programs. "highly regarded, suffice to say you left a good impression, rank highly" are some of the better remarks I have heard in that gray zone.

 

[member2721]

Are programs done sending their post-interview love?? =)

My sense is that things are cooling off. Most of my contact was starting from late last week to early this week, but I still got an email yesterday. Apparently programs have to submit their rank list the same time we do, but they typically finalize it (based on emails) 2-4 days before that.

 

[AndSheWas]

Ranked to match / equivalent: UMaryland, UNC, Emory, Pitt, Umass
"well ranked" / "highly regarded": NYU, Northwestern, Brown, Duke
"well liked/ you would do well here": Brown, Harvard Longwood, Sinai
nothing: Einstein, Hopkins, Rush

 

[member2111]

When a PD calls and leaves a vm with, "you would fit well here let me know of you have any questions," but they aren't my #1 ( very high #3 actually)....

Is it ok to write an email saying thanks I would be very happy to match there. Or if I am not saying #1 at this point, then better to not respond at all?

 

[member2721]

Ranked to match / equivalent: UMaryland, UNC, Emory, Pitt, Umass
"well ranked" / "highly regarded": NYU, Northwestern, Brown, Duke
"well liked/ you would do well here": Brown, Harvard Longwood, Sinai
nothing: Einstein, Hopkins, Rush

That's awesome! How much post-interview emailing did you do?

 

[OldPsychDoc]

When a PD calls and leaves a vm with, "you would fit well here let me know of you have any questions," but they aren't my #1 ( very high #3 actually)....

Is it ok to write an email saying thanks I would be very happy to match there. Or if I am not saying #1 at this point, then better to not respond at all?

It's OK and it's courteous.

 

[AndSheWas]

That's awesome! How much post-interview emailing did you do?

So, for my top 5 programs, I did a bit of soliciting because I am type-A and know no other way. (Ie - sent my number #1 an email saying "you're my #1!" and my 2-5 emails saying "I am ranking you super high and would be totally thrilled to match there". These emails were initially sent cause I had a question about the matching process, but I figured it couldn't hurt to throw that in there NB - I am still confused about how I will rank 2-5).

Otherwise, I sent all programs thank you notes that were personalized to the PDs and my faculty interviewers, but sent no other follow-up correspondence. I am not planning on sending anyone anything and this point, cause I can barely make my mind up about ranking as it is. It's a fortunate case of, "I have too many amazing possible boyfriends!"

Member... whatever your numbers are: what did you do re: correspondence?


Here is another question I have:
Per NRMP numbers (I think?) like 85% of psych applicants match in one of their top 3 choices, but I really doubt 85% of applicants get those emails saying "you're ranked to match!" or "we love you forever!" from their top 3. So, does all this not really matter, in the grand cosmic scheme of things?

 

[futuredrpsych]

AndSheWas, I tried to respond to your pm but your inbox is full

 

[member2721]

Member... whatever your numbers are: what did you do re: correspondence?

I sent generic thank you letters to my top 2/3rd programs within the week or so after the interview, either one email to everyone, or individualized emails to each interviewer. It didn't seem to matter which way it was.

I had three programs that I honestly thought could be number 1, during different times on the trail, and I followed up with email and second looks within the week for them, and then also a email at the end of my interview trail, expressing high interest to those three.

 

[firamus]

has anybody gotten any?

 

[quirks]

What if you write to Dr. Crowley first?

She will reply, but she will be vague.

 

[m1345]

Programs tend not to contact you spontaneously. PDs in general are so busy during rank time that they simply don't have enough time to go down the list and contact everyone. My sense is that, for a program to contact you spontaneously, a PD or APD call if you are 'ranked to match' or pretty high on their list. Otherwise, they will not bother to call or email you to recruit, even if you are at a level where it is typical for an applicant to match based on previous years.

I sent generic thank you letters to my top 2/3rd programs within the week or so after the interview, including 'love letters' to 6 programs, and further contacted my top 4 programs post-interview trail.

To be transparent, these are the programs I have heard from:
a. Ranked to match: MGH, NYU, Sinai
b. Highly regarded (received call or PD email): Yale, Penn, Longwood, Stanford, Cornell, Columbia
c. More than generic email: UMass, UCSD, AECOM
d. Minimal contact (generic email): UW
e. No response (even to thank you letter): Hopkins, CHA



It depends on programs. "highly regarded, suffice to say you left a good impression, rank highly" are some of the better remarks I have heard in that gray zone.

You've heard that you're ranked to match from MGH within the past 4days?

 

[slickster032]

has anybody gotten any?

Only replies to thank you emails. They specifically told us during our interview that there will be no post-interview correspondence.

 

[firamus]

They specifically told us during our interview that there will be no post-interview correspondence.

Yeah, but so does everybody. Figured I'd get the consensus. I feel like Hopkins is the only program that truthfully follows through with this.

 

[slickster032]

Yeah, but so does everybody. Figured I'd get the consensus. I feel like Hopkins is the only program that truthfully follows through with this.

I don't know about that. I've only heard it from a couple programs, UCLA being one of them. They seemed pretty serious :/

 

[MedYEP]

Programs tend not to contact you spontaneously. PDs in general are so busy during rank time that they simply don't have enough time to go down the list and contact everyone. My sense is that, for a program to contact you spontaneously, a PD or APD call if you are 'ranked to match' or pretty high on their list. Otherwise, they will not bother to call or email you to recruit, even if you are at a level where it is typical for an applicant to match based on previous years.

I sent generic thank you letters to my top 2/3rd programs within the week or so after the interview, including 'love letters' to 6 programs, and further contacted my top 4 programs post-interview trail.

To be transparent, these are the programs I have heard from:
a. Ranked to match: MGH, NYU, Sinai
b. Highly regarded (received call or PD email): Yale, Penn, Longwood, Stanford, Cornell, Columbia
c. More than generic email: UMass, UCSD, AECOM
d. Minimal contact (generic email): UW
e. No response (even to thank you letter): Hopkins, CHA



It depends on programs. "highly regarded, suffice to say you left a good impression, rank highly" are some of the better remarks I have heard in that gray zone.

This makes me really worried that I haven't heard from Stanford...Sigh...

 

[member2721]

This makes me really worried that I haven't heard from Stanford...Sigh...

Stanford is very mellow when it comes to recruiting, which reflects their ethos. They do not typically recruit by email or phone

The reason I hard from them is because I spent significant research time in their department.

I'd encourage you to rank them highly if you feel that they are a good fit.

 

[member2721]

You've heard that you're ranked to match from MGH within the past 4days?

No this was a few weeks ago. I think it's atypical for them to know prior to completing all interviews.

Also it's a new PD and APD so who knows how they will approach recruitment.

Hope you guys will rank MGH high too- PM me if you have any questions- I've really tried to talk to lots of folks recently, including a transfer out, so I have a sense of the good and the bad.

 

[kindasorta]

Stanford is very mellow when it comes to recruiting, which reflects their ethos.