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Hi all,

I am a third-year student at a well-established DO school. We were supposed to start core rotations a couple of months ago but they have been continually delayed due to the pandemic. We just received word that our main teaching hospital is indefinitely not taking students anymore. Prior to that we at least had a "start date" for our clerkships, but now presumably we will not start until the pandemic is over.

Our administration has not been talking to us. What happens when a medical school loses its main teaching hospital? I know that when residencies shut down, the residents are able to transfer to other residency programs. Should we be looking into transfers to other schools? As of right now, there are no core rotations available at my school for the third-year students.
 
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You shall know the Truth

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Hi all,

I am a third-year student at a well-established DO school. We were supposed to start core rotations a couple of months ago but they have been continually delayed due to the pandemic. We just received word that our main teaching hospital is indefinitely not taking students anymore. Prior to that we at least had a "start date" for our clerkships, but now presumably we will not start until the pandemic is over.

Our administration has not been talking to us. What happens when a medical school loses its main teaching hospital? I know that when residencies shut down, the residents are able to transfer to other residency programs. Should we be looking into transfers to other schools? As of right now, there are no core rotations available at my school for the third-year students.
What? This is crazy. I’m sure your administration has no idea whats going on If they have not contacted you. I would contact the school and see if you can find your own by asking docs in the area. idk about switching schools, may do more harm then good right now.
 

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Our main hospital isnt taking students either. Presumably they will somewhat soon though because some of the other hospitals in the area have started taking limited numbers at least.
 
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Our main hospital isnt taking students either. Presumably they will somewhat soon though because some of the other hospitals in the area have started taking limited numbers at least.
What is your school's plan for rotations? I am trying to think of what we can do to mitigate the situation. We are still paying an absurd amount of tuition to essentially do nothing. We are currently on "online" rotations that consist of purely Aquifer cases with no teaching activities, assessments, or grades.
 
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What happens when a medical school loses its main teaching hospital?

Nothing. Drexel lost theirs and it's business as usual.
I know that when residencies shut down, the residents are able to transfer to other residency programs. Should we be looking into transfers to other schools?

Lol no you won't be transferring to another school. The hospital didn't shut down, they just aren't taking students because of COVID. Unfortunately you are at the mercy of your school to find you places to rotate. At least until 4th year, then you're SOL.
 
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jurassicpark

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Hi all,

I am a third-year student at a well-established DO school. We were supposed to start core rotations a couple of months ago but they have been continually delayed due to the pandemic. We just received word that our main teaching hospital is indefinitely not taking students anymore. Prior to that we at least had a "start date" for our clerkships, but now presumably we will not start until the pandemic is over.

Our administration has not been talking to us. What happens when a medical school loses its main teaching hospital? I know that when residencies shut down, the residents are able to transfer to other residency programs. Should we be looking into transfers to other schools? As of right now, there are no core rotations available at my school for the third-year students.

Unfortunately this is the story of many DO schools and their rotations, which really sucks for those doing their core rotations. Even at hospitals still allowing students to rotate through, many are restricting students to non-COVID patients only, which are very few. So consider yourself lucky in some respects, you are not in a COVID-rich environment with nothing to do, see, or learn.

This is a major problem for medical students across the board right now. And some schools are having students sign waivers saying they absolve anyone of any responsibility if they get sick and die to continue their rotations, but the hospitals don't WANT students right now. I am talking with admin constantly about what to do with the core-rotation students who can't set foot in the hospital.. unfortunately no good solution has come yet and I just feel really bad for your education.

On the other hand, while I feel bad for your education.. my days are 13-14 hours long (I only get paid for 12), we are running out of basic PPEs. I dropped my gowns I ordered through the ACP to a smaller hospital because they completely ran out. I ran through COVID patients on Bipaps aerosilzing their droplets NOT in isolation lined up in the hallway looking for PPEs to wear (not joking by the way). We have no ICU beds anymore, and I'm fighting with vicious words because I have nothing else to use to try to keep patients from crashing. Nurses are tired and breaking down. Military is deployed but not in sufficient numbers but we are thankful for them. We make the assumption that we must have had COVID already or we'd be dead. Cannot take a vacation. Had to take out loans to pay staff.

So be thankful you get to stay home if you can if you have no use in a hospital right now.
 
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Unfortunately this is the story of many DO schools and their rotations, which really sucks for those doing their core rotations. Even at hospitals still allowing students to rotate through, many are restricting students to non-COVID patients only, which are very few. So consider yourself lucky in some respects, you are not in a COVID-rich environment with nothing to do, see, or learn.

This is a major problem for medical students across the board right now. And some schools are having students sign waivers saying they absolve anyone of any responsibility if they get sick and die to continue their rotations, but the hospitals don't WANT students right now. I am talking with admin constantly about what to do with the core-rotation students who can't set foot in the hospital.. unfortunately no good solution has come yet and I just feel really bad for your education.

On the other hand, while I feel bad for your education.. my days are 13-14 hours long (I only get paid for 12), we are running out of basic PPEs. I dropped my gowns I ordered through the ACP to a smaller hospital because they completely ran out. I ran through COVID patients on Bipaps aerosilzing their droplets NOT in isolation lined up in the hallway looking for PPEs to wear (not joking by the way). We have no ICU beds anymore, and I'm fighting with vicious words because I have nothing else to use to try to keep patients from crashing. Nurses are tired and breaking down. Military is deployed but not in sufficient numbers but we are thankful for them. We make the assumption that we must have had COVID already or we'd be dead. Cannot take a vacation. Had to take out loans to pay staff.

So be thankful you get to stay home if you can if you have no use in a hospital right now.
Damn, sounds like NYC a few months back. Can't believe everyone looked at what was happening in NYC and thought, "this is fake, masks are oppression!" You'll make it through, hopefully. We did up here, and things haven't gotten back to being that bad (yet).

With regard to OP, I'm in a hard-hit area that is doing well for about two months. We just started taking the local MD students this week, and they were out of rotations for four months. A lot of students are SOL, even on the MD side. You just have to wait
 
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Unfortunately this is the story of many DO schools and their rotations, which really sucks for those doing their core rotations. Even at hospitals still allowing students to rotate through, many are restricting students to non-COVID patients only, which are very few. So consider yourself lucky in some respects, you are not in a COVID-rich environment with nothing to do, see, or learn.

This is a major problem for medical students across the board right now. And some schools are having students sign waivers saying they absolve anyone of any responsibility if they get sick and die to continue their rotations, but the hospitals don't WANT students right now. I am talking with admin constantly about what to do with the core-rotation students who can't set foot in the hospital.. unfortunately no good solution has come yet and I just feel really bad for your education.

On the other hand, while I feel bad for your education.. my days are 13-14 hours long (I only get paid for 12), we are running out of basic PPEs. I dropped my gowns I ordered through the ACP to a smaller hospital because they completely ran out. I ran through COVID patients on Bipaps aerosilzing their droplets NOT in isolation lined up in the hallway looking for PPEs to wear (not joking by the way). We have no ICU beds anymore, and I'm fighting with vicious words because I have nothing else to use to try to keep patients from crashing. Nurses are tired and breaking down. Military is deployed but not in sufficient numbers but we are thankful for them. We make the assumption that we must have had COVID already or we'd be dead. Cannot take a vacation. Had to take out loans to pay staff.

So be thankful you get to stay home if you can if you have no use in a hospital right now.
Thank you for the detailed reply. I understand it must be very difficult working on the frontlines right now as a physician. Why do you think hospitals are so adamant against having students right now? Teaching hospitals depend on a fresh class of interns every year. These interns presumably learned how to practice medicine through their medical school clerkships at the same teaching hospitals. It seems odd to me that hospitals nationwide are restricting medical students but still wanting a class of interns. Where are we supposed to gain the experience needed to function as residents if the teaching hospitals refuse to take us as medical students?
 
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Nothing. Drexel lost theirs and it's business as usual.


Lol no you won't be transferring to another school. The hospital didn't shut down, they just aren't taking students because of COVID. Unfortunately you are at the mercy of your school to find you places to rotate. At least until 4th year, then you're SOL.
Yep. Was gonna comment. Losing Hahnemann was terrible but everyone had a place to go and things are settling now for rotations for everyone else. They made it work.
 
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Thank you for the detailed reply. I understand it must be very difficult working on the frontlines right now as a physician. Why do you think hospitals are so adamant against having students right now? Teaching hospitals depend on a fresh class of interns every year. These interns presumably learned how to practice medicine through their medical school clerkships at the same teaching hospitals. It seems odd to me that hospitals nationwide are restricting medical students but still wanting a class of interns. Where are we supposed to gain the experience needed to function as residents if the teaching hospitals refuse to take us as medical students?

Because the bottom line at the end of it all is you're a liability not an asset. The hospitals that a lot of DO students rotate through are not teaching hospitals, they are private hospitals that allow you to rotate through. Teaching the future doctors of the world is not their priority.

You do not add anything to the team. You don't draw blood, you can't give orders, start IV lines, etc. The amount of time for you to see and present a patient an attending will have seen 4-5. You are just another vector to disperse COVID to the team and someone that potentially can get sick. You eat up PPEs we don't have. To teach you will slow the attending down who is now seeing 30-something critically ill patients. All these reasons and more.

Sorry, I know it sounded harsh. The reality is, I would love to throw med students into the fray. You guys generally are of the age where you are least like to get critically ill and die if you do get sick. But we still live in a crazy legalistic society where it would hard for us to have med students waltz in and be able to do contributing members of the team.
 
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Because the bottom line at the end of it all is you're a liability not an asset. The hospitals that a lot of DO students rotate through are not teaching hospitals, they are private hospitals that allow you to rotate through. Teaching the future doctors of the world is not their priority.

You do not add anything to the team. You don't draw blood, you can't give orders, start IV lines, etc. The amount of time for you to see and present a patient an attending will have seen 4-5. You are just another vector to disperse COVID to the team and someone that potentially can get sick. You eat up PPEs we don't have. To teach you will slow the attending down who is now seeing 30-something critically ill patients. All these reasons and more.

Sorry, I know it sounded harsh. The reality is, I would love to throw med students into the fray. You guys generally are of the age where you are least like to get critically ill and die if you do get sick. But we still live in a crazy legalistic society where it would hard for us to have med students waltz in and be able to do contributing members of the team.

This is why I would argue that our medical education system needs to fundamentally overhaul the way we treat medical students, especially MS4s. They should be treated like interns. Give them the ability to put in orders with supervision and write notes that get cosigned by the attending and count as actual medical documentation. Assigned them patients just like interns get assigned patients, but don't have an intern duplicate all their work. Now, I'm not saying you as an attending do this. The system prevents you from doing it. But the system needs to change. And honestly, the middle of a pandemic hot spot might not be the place or time to make this change. But there is nothing magical that happens to someone on July 1st of intern year. They don't usually have a drastic amount of knowledge that they didn't have on July 1st of MS4. Day 1 interns, for the most part, have no clue how to be a doctor. But we give them real responsibilities and they learn quickly. Med students would do the same if we gave them those same responsibilities. Dental school graduates are able to practice dentistry on day one after graduation, albeit probably a little less efficiently than an experienced dentist. But they do it, because they actually work on patients in dental school. If medical schools did the same, then people would graduate medical school actually knowing the basics of how to practice medicine.
 
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Hi all,

I am a third-year student at a well-established DO school. We were supposed to start core rotations a couple of months ago but they have been continually delayed due to the pandemic. We just received word that our main teaching hospital is indefinitely not taking students anymore. Prior to that we at least had a "start date" for our clerkships, but now presumably we will not start until the pandemic is over.

Our administration has not been talking to us. What happens when a medical school loses its main teaching hospital? I know that when residencies shut down, the residents are able to transfer to other residency programs. Should we be looking into transfers to other schools? As of right now, there are no core rotations available at my school for the third-year students.
Terribly sorry to read this, hawkie, My school lost all of a core set of rotations, but miraculously, we scrambled and managed to replace them.

This is the new reality of COVID and the harsh truths have been explained by jurassicpark.

You and you classmates may very well have to take a LOA.

I'm disappointed that your school is silent. My deans would have been communicating, with our students, even if they were flying blind themselves.
 
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Goro

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This is why I would argue that our medical education system needs to fundamentally overhaul the way we treat medical students, especially MS4s. They should be treated like interns. Give them the ability to put in orders with supervision and write notes that get cosigned by the attending and count as actual medical documentation. Assigned them patients just like interns get assigned patients, but don't have an intern duplicate all their work. Now, I'm not saying you as an attending do this. The system prevents you from doing it. But the system needs to change. And honestly, the middle of a pandemic hot spot might not be the place or time to make this change. But there is nothing magical that happens to someone on July 1st of intern year. They don't usually have a drastic amount of knowledge that they didn't have on July 1st of MS4. Day 1 interns, for the most part, have no clue how to be a doctor. But we give them real responsibilities and they learn quickly. Med students would do the same if we gave them those same responsibilities. Dental school graduates are able to practice dentistry on day one after graduation, albeit probably a little less efficiently than an experienced dentist. But they do it, because they actually work on patients in dental school. If medical schools did the same, then people would graduate medical school actually knowing the basics of how to practice medicine.
Very true, but sadly, in many ways this is less medical education and more the mindset (or business model) of hospitals these days, most of which are now in major chains. the wise @gonnif can speak in more detail on this.
 
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Terribly sorry to read this, hawkie, My school lost all of a core set of rotations, but miraculously, we scrambled and managed to replace them.

This is the new reality of COVID and the harsh truths have been explained by jurassicpark.

You and you classmates may very well have to take a LOA.

I'm disappointed that your school is silent. My deans would have been communicating, with our students, even if they were flying blind themselves.

If I were a student, I'd honestly feel much more reassured by an administration saying, "hey, we're in uncharted waters, we're going to do our best to do right by you, but we're stuggling to figure things out too" than by an administration that had their head in the sand like an ostrich.
 
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Goro

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If I were a student, I'd honestly feel much more reassured by an administration saying, "hey, we're in uncharted waters, we're going to do our best to do right by you, but we're stuggling to figure things out too" than by an administration that had their head in the sand like an ostrich.
We're fortunate in that our Deans are very student-centric.

I feel that even a Dean hit with a club in the head by this situation should be able to offer some solace to the students. You'd make a good Dean, colleague.
 

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This is why I would argue that our medical education system needs to fundamentally overhaul the way we treat medical students, especially MS4s. They should be treated like interns. Give them the ability to put in orders with supervision and write notes that get cosigned by the attending and count as actual medical documentation. Assigned them patients just like interns get assigned patients, but don't have an intern duplicate all their work. Now, I'm not saying you as an attending do this. The system prevents you from doing it. But the system needs to change. And honestly, the middle of a pandemic hot spot might not be the place or time to make this change. But there is nothing magical that happens to someone on July 1st of intern year. They don't usually have a drastic amount of knowledge that they didn't have on July 1st of MS4. Day 1 interns, for the most part, have no clue how to be a doctor. But we give them real responsibilities and they learn quickly. Med students would do the same if we gave them those same responsibilities. Dental school graduates are able to practice dentistry on day one after graduation, albeit probably a little less efficiently than an experienced dentist. But they do it, because they actually work on patients in dental school. If medical schools did the same, then people would graduate medical school actually knowing the basics of how to practice medicine.

<old gruff voice> Back when I was a wee-student, we could drop notes in the chart and the attending would cosign. </old gruff voice>

Since the majority was still paper, we still wrote up all the orders, prescriptions, etc and the intern/resident would just sign them. Much harder to do now electronically. I'd have a hard time allowing a student to put in electronic orders for me to sign because going over them systematically looking for mistakes would be extremely difficult and downright dangerous.

But yeah, as has been pointed out by Goro and I think you're alluding to this as well, the system is no longer run by physicians. These decisions are beyond us. On the other hand, we may be getting to the point where we just say screw it, we have no one else to stem this tide. I say this because we are heading into flu season.. sweet jesus save us all.
 
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What is your school's plan for rotations? I am trying to think of what we can do to mitigate the situation. We are still paying an absurd amount of tuition to essentially do nothing. We are currently on "online" rotations that consist of purely Aquifer cases with no teaching activities, assessments, or grades.

Great question, I dont know what their plan is. We have had class meetings where they essentially talk in circles and say they're doing the best they can and that they are working to do what's best for us but there's never any concrete info, details, or a description of the hurdles they're attempting to overcome until a major decision hits us over the head.

Our online rotations are similar it sounds like. Aquifer cases or YouTube videos for some, some textbook chapters for others, a few quizzes, didactic sessions or grand rounds a couple times per week. I spend about an hour a day on it and its more than enough. Not exactly an ideal clinical education. I think the biggest thing is that the people running them have never done "rotations" online so they have no clue what to have us do.
 
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Terribly sorry to read this, hawkie, My school lost all of a core set of rotations, but miraculously, we scrambled and managed to replace them.

This is the new reality of COVID and the harsh truths have been explained by jurassicpark.

You and you classmates may very well have to take a LOA.

I'm disappointed that your school is silent. My deans would have been communicating, with our students, even if they were flying blind themselves.
My biggest fear, secondary to having zero in-person clinical experience for my third year of medical school, is being forced to take an LOA. My school already admitted a full incoming first-year class, so I don't see how they can hold back the third-year class and accommodate two full sets of classes in clinical rotations at the same time.

How concerned should I be? Is there precedent for this? I wonder if there have been medical schools in the past who have lost their hospitals and have had to hold back or otherwise dismiss a whole class of medical students.
 

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Great question, I dont know what their plan is. We have had class meetings where they essentially talk in circles and say they're doing the best they can and that they are working to do what's best for us but there's never any concrete info, details, or a description of the hurdles they're attempting to overcome until a major decision hits us over the head.

Our online rotations are similar it sounds like. Aquifer cases or YouTube videos for some, some textbook chapters for others, a few quizzes, didactic sessions or grand rounds a couple times per week. I spend about an hour a day on it and its more than enough. Not exactly an ideal clinical education. I think the biggest thing is that the people running them have never done "rotations" online so they have no clue what to have us do.

Lol I haven't gone to one of those class meetings since April. I figured I was going to stop giving them my attention if they weren't going to give us useful information.

I'm happy that they apparently have opened up a little about the situation at the most recent meeting instead of just chasing their own tail for an hour.
 
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My biggest fear, secondary to having zero in-person clinical experience for my third year of medical school, is being forced to take an LOA. My school already admitted a full incoming first-year class, so I don't see how they can hold back the third-year class and accommodate two full sets of classes in clinical rotations at the same time.

How concerned should I be? Is there precedent for this? I wonder if there have been medical schools in the past who have lost their hospitals and have had to hold back or otherwise dismiss a whole class of medical students.

I've never thought about the logistics of that!!

I have no idea what the solution would be.

The only parallel I can think of is the Spanish flu pandemic of 100 years ago. But then, I think med students were simply thrown into the clinic and died wholesale, just like their patients.
 
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I wonder if there have been medical schools in the past who have lost their hospitals and have had to hold back or otherwise dismiss a whole class of medical students.

Not to be that guy but you need to chill a bit. Your school is far from the only one being significantly impacted by COVID right now. You are not going to be wholesale dismissed because your school lost an affiliate site of rotations in the middle of a pandemic.
 
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Anybody else have their school tell them they are unable to provide PPE? Our school was supposed to give PPE to all students, but recently told us they were unable to obtain enough. Seems kind of ridiculous since there are quite a few places selling it. I think it may just be a cop out to save themselves money.
 
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Anybody else have their school tell them they are unable to provide PPE? Our school was supposed to give PPE to all students, but recently told us they were unable to obtain enough. Seems kind of ridiculous since there are quite a few places selling it. I think it may just be a cop out to save themselves money.
They have to get their covid bonuses somehow
 
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Anybody else have their school tell them they are unable to provide PPE? Our school was supposed to give PPE to all students, but recently told us they were unable to obtain enough. Seems kind of ridiculous since there are quite a few places selling it. I think it may just be a cop out to save themselves money.
Name and shame please.
 
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Not to be that guy but you need to chill a bit. Your school is far from the only one being significantly impacted by COVID right now. You are not going to be wholesale dismissed because your school lost an affiliate site of rotations in the middle of a pandemic.
This was somewhat reassuring, I am just freaking out a little because our administration has been silent on contingency plans. How do you see this ending, though, if the school cannot find enough rotation spots to make up for those lost? I can see a situation where some third-year students will have in-person rotations whereas others will unable to have any rotations at all.
 

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Anybody else have their school tell them they are unable to provide PPE? Our school was supposed to give PPE to all students, but recently told us they were unable to obtain enough. Seems kind of ridiculous since there are quite a few places selling it. I think it may just be a cop out to save themselves money.
Name and shame please.

That's a major yikes.

Ours provided a veritable truckload of it to us without us actually even being on rotation yet.
 
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This was somewhat reassuring, I am just freaking out a little because our administration has been silent on contingency plans. How do you see this ending, though, if the school cannot find enough rotation spots to make up for those lost? I can see a situation where some third-year students will have in-person rotations whereas others will unable to have any rotations at all.

They will find some crappy clinics and such to stuff you in.

If you are unable to complete any type of rotation then you are legally able to get a tuition refund. Schools will do anything and everything to prevent that from happening. Whether that's in the form of online rotations or crappy in person rotations make no mistake, they'll make it happen.
 
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Anybody else have their school tell them they are unable to provide PPE? Our school was supposed to give PPE to all students, but recently told us they were unable to obtain enough. Seems kind of ridiculous since there are quite a few places selling it. I think it may just be a cop out to save themselves money.

Similar thing happened at my school. At the beginning of the summer we were told that we would be provided PPE if sites were not able to provide it which changed right before rotations started to well we might be able to order you some N95s but it will cost you $15 dollars each.
 
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This is why I would argue that our medical education system needs to fundamentally overhaul the way we treat medical students, especially MS4s. They should be treated like interns. Give them the ability to put in orders with supervision and write notes that get cosigned by the attending and count as actual medical documentation. Assigned them patients just like interns get assigned patients, but don't have an intern duplicate all their work. Now, I'm not saying you as an attending do this. The system prevents you from doing it. But the system needs to change. And honestly, the middle of a pandemic hot spot might not be the place or time to make this change. But there is nothing magical that happens to someone on July 1st of intern year. They don't usually have a drastic amount of knowledge that they didn't have on July 1st of MS4. Day 1 interns, for the most part, have no clue how to be a doctor. But we give them real responsibilities and they learn quickly. Med students would do the same if we gave them those same responsibilities. Dental school graduates are able to practice dentistry on day one after graduation, albeit probably a little less efficiently than an experienced dentist. But they do it, because they actually work on patients in dental school. If medical schools did the same, then people would graduate medical school actually knowing the basics of how to practice medicine.

Have you guys not incorporated med students in documentation with the CMS change? Our students have been writing notes and pending orders for over a year. We're finally starting to see them back in a handful of clinics again. I think this still varies quite a bit on department though.

<old gruff voice> Back when I was a wee-student, we could drop notes in the chart and the attending would cosign. </old gruff voice>

Since the majority was still paper, we still wrote up all the orders, prescriptions, etc and the intern/resident would just sign them. Much harder to do now electronically. I'd have a hard time allowing a student to put in electronic orders for me to sign because going over them systematically looking for mistakes would be extremely difficult and downright dangerous.

But yeah, as has been pointed out by Goro and I think you're alluding to this as well, the system is no longer run by physicians. These decisions are beyond us. On the other hand, we may be getting to the point where we just say screw it, we have no one else to stem this tide. I say this because we are heading into flu season.. sweet jesus save us all.

To be completely honest, even in my day I would write notes (paper on two rotations) in most of my rotations. Residents would just have to write another one (half the time copying and pasting from mine) for billing. I wouldn't put in orders/pend orders like our students do on some of our rotations. Writing notes is one of the biggest things you learn in med school. I remember having to do them formally and review them with residents or my attending.

Similar thing happened at my school. At the beginning of the summer we were told that we would be provided PPE if sites were not able to provide it which changed right before rotations started to well we might be able to order you some N95s but it will cost you $15 dollars each.

That's kind of ridiculous considering that a 50 pack of medical masks are like <$10 online right now and durable reusable faceshields can be had for ~$30. For how much money is spent on tuition, you'd think they'd be able to cover $40 worth of PPE.
 
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Isoval

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Have you guys not incorporated med students in documentation with the CMS change? Our students have been writing notes and pending orders for over a year. We're finally starting to see them back in a handful of clinics again. I think this still varies quite a bit on department though.



To be completely honest, even in my day I would write notes (paper on two rotations) in most of my rotations. Residents would just have to write another one (half the time copying and pasting from mine) for billing. I wouldn't put in orders/pend orders like our students do on some of our rotations. Writing notes is one of the biggest things you learn in med school. I remember having to do them formally and review them with residents or my attending.



That's kind of ridiculous considering that a 50 pack of medical masks are like <$10 online right now and durable reusable faceshields can be had for ~$30. For how much money is spent on tuition, you'd think they'd be able to cover $40 worth of PPE.

Haha wait, face shields are how much?

I suddenly feel extremely guilty.
 

NurWollen

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Have you guys not incorporated med students in documentation with the CMS change? Our students have been writing notes and pending orders for over a year. We're finally starting to see them back in a handful of clinics again. I think this still varies quite a bit on department though.



To be completely honest, even in my day I would write notes (paper on two rotations) in most of my rotations. Residents would just have to write another one (half the time copying and pasting from mine) for billing. I wouldn't put in orders/pend orders like our students do on some of our rotations. Writing notes is one of the biggest things you learn in med school. I remember having to do them formally and review them with residents or my attending.

At my residency hospital, after the CMS change, my institution decided med students were allowed to write progress notes, but not H&Ps or DC summaries, for some reason, and no pending orders.

I'm not sure how it works at my fellowship hospital since we haven't had med students around yet. We will soon, however.

In med school I would often write practice notes, but since the residents were always so busy, reviewing them and giving feedback was rarely a priority. There were a few exceptions, but that's usually how it went. I did have some preceptors occasionally who would review my notes with me.
 
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All of our core sites were fine, apart from certain specific clerkships in particular COVID hot spots, but all that changed was that our school put us up in housing while we rotate during our inptient (IM1, OB, GS) clerkships.

So for example my core hospital is in Charleston, SC, but I am 1.5 hrs away from there now doing an internal med and OB rotation back to back, then I can return back to Charleston for the remainder of my outpatient clerkships.
 
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calivianya

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You guys are/were getting PPE? :laugh:

Must be nice. Our school’s been very clear from day 1 that we were bringing our own PPE for everything, and the pandemic didn’t change that. Did your school provide PPE for the cadaver lab and things too? Just curious, because if we needed PPE for anything at all, it was always our own responsibility. We bought our own gowns, gloves, goggles... I also invested in really good respirator masks (the kind you use to reduce chemical exposure, not N95s), because I figured out pretty early I’m very sensitive to formaldehyde and I ended up spending 40 hours/week in the cadaver lab when I took an anatomy fellowship position.

They had gloves in the room for the standardized patient exams, but that was about it.
 
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Kr#36

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You guys are/were getting PPE? :laugh:

Must be nice. Our school’s been very clear from day 1 that we were bringing our own PPE for everything, and the pandemic didn’t change that. Did your school provide PPE for the cadaver lab and things too? Just curious, because if we needed PPE for anything at all, it was always our own responsibility. We bought our own gowns, gloves, goggles... I also invested in really good respirator masks (the kind you use to reduce chemical exposure, not N95s), because I figured out pretty early I’m very sensitive to formaldehyde and I ended up spending 40 hours/week in the cadaver lab when I took an anatomy fellowship position.

They had gloves in the room for the standardized patient exams, but that was about it.

Name and shame because thats insane.
 
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ciestar

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You guys are/were getting PPE? :laugh:

Must be nice. Our school’s been very clear from day 1 that we were bringing our own PPE for everything, and the pandemic didn’t change that. Did your school provide PPE for the cadaver lab and things too? Just curious, because if we needed PPE for anything at all, it was always our own responsibility. We bought our own gowns, gloves, goggles... I also invested in really good respirator masks (the kind you use to reduce chemical exposure, not N95s), because I figured out pretty early I’m very sensitive to formaldehyde and I ended up spending 40 hours/week in the cadaver lab when I took an anatomy fellowship position.

They had gloves in the room for the standardized patient exams, but that was about it.
Yeah, all of it was provided.

They provided masks for the clinical students, but still encouraged the purchase of surgical masks.
 

Goro

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You guys are/were getting PPE? :laugh:

Must be nice. Our school’s been very clear from day 1 that we were bringing our own PPE for everything, and the pandemic didn’t change that. Did your school provide PPE for the cadaver lab and things too? Just curious, because if we needed PPE for anything at all, it was always our own responsibility. We bought our own gowns, gloves, goggles... I also invested in really good respirator masks (the kind you use to reduce chemical exposure, not N95s), because I figured out pretty early I’m very sensitive to formaldehyde and I ended up spending 40 hours/week in the cadaver lab when I took an anatomy fellowship position.

They had gloves in the room for the standardized patient exams, but that was about it.
What penal colony is this?????
 

hallowmann

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You guys are/were getting PPE? :laugh:

Must be nice. Our school’s been very clear from day 1 that we were bringing our own PPE for everything, and the pandemic didn’t change that. Did your school provide PPE for the cadaver lab and things too? Just curious, because if we needed PPE for anything at all, it was always our own responsibility. We bought our own gowns, gloves, goggles... I also invested in really good respirator masks (the kind you use to reduce chemical exposure, not N95s), because I figured out pretty early I’m very sensitive to formaldehyde and I ended up spending 40 hours/week in the cadaver lab when I took an anatomy fellowship position.

They had gloves in the room for the standardized patient exams, but that was about it.

Are you talking about PPE for lab or are you talking about for rotations and stuff? I don't think they really gave us anything other than gloves for lab/standard patients, but back then we didn't need anything else. Now everyone is expected to have masks on, so its reasonable for that to be provided by the school.

In general when I was in school we didn't really need PPE and when we were on rotations, we used the same PPE stock as all the other people at the hospital. If the hospital is telling you you should be bringing in your own PPE, that's messed up.
 
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We got masks, shields, and N95 for rotations in case our core sites needed us to provide our own.
So far haven't used any of it.
 
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calivianya

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What penal colony is this?????

Let’s say it’s the closest penal colony to Cuba. :laugh:
Are you talking about PPE for lab or are you talking about for rotations and stuff? I don't think they really gave us anything other than gloves for lab/standard patients, but back then we didn't need anything else. Now everyone is expected to have masks on, so its reasonable for that to be provided by the school.

In general when I was in school we didn't really need PPE and when we were on rotations, we used the same PPE stock as all the other people at the hospital. If the hospital is telling you you should be bringing in your own PPE, that's messed up.
I mean any PPE at all. The only things they provided are the equipment in the room during our skills tests, which is logical because they won’t even let us bring our own pens to written tests for fear we’ll cheat. They probably think we’d write on our gloves or something, so they give us gloves for skills tests. In contrast, the anatomy lab was mandatory, and we had to have goggles, gloves, and gowns for that which were not provided.

I’m assuming they may provide us with masks for our end of the spring semester tests we’re taking over the next couple of weeks in-person (stupid), but I’m bringing my own because I’m sure not counting on it and I’d hate to fail a test for not having proper PPE. Then again, in theory we could write in our masks, so I wouldn’t be surprised if they provided masks just for that reason.

My clinical site has expressed that they have enough PPE for the most part, but we might want to purchase our own goggles or face shields if we want them.
 
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MavFab

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Let’s say it’s the closest penal colony to Cuba. :laugh:

I mean any PPE at all. The only things they provided are the equipment in the room during our skills tests, which is logical because they won’t even let us bring our own pens to written tests for fear we’ll cheat. They probably think we’d write on our gloves or something, so they give us gloves for skills tests. In contrast, the anatomy lab was mandatory, and we had to have goggles, gloves, and gowns for that which were not provided.

I’m assuming they may provide us with masks for our end of the spring semester tests we’re taking over the next couple of weeks in-person (stupid), but I’m bringing my own because I’m sure not counting on it and I’d hate to fail a test for not having proper PPE. Then again, in theory we could write in our masks, so I wouldn’t be surprised if they provided masks just for that reason.

My clinical site has expressed that they have enough PPE for the most part, but we might want to purchase our own goggles or face shields if we want them.

I am pretty sure we attend the same school....
 
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