Weaknesses in training

[biomom]

I was hoping to have a discussion about weaknesses in training in master’s programs and how to remedy them.

My program did a good job of teaching theories (personality, counseling, and marriage/family). We had a lot of assessment courses and standard required courses. What my school did not do in the short two years was translate theory into practice. There were no courses and trainings on cbt, narrative therapy, etc etc. when I complained, I was told I would learn how to be a therapist during my internship. During internship, I was exposed to a variety of ideas, but I was not taught major therapeutic approaches. I had to buy books and teach myself. I’ve also invested a lot of money into continuing education. I wonder why master’s programs are like this. I know several master’s level providers from different schools who have confided similar experiences.

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[summerbabe]

I wonder why master’s programs are like this. I know several master’s level providers from different schools who have confided similar experiences.

Aside from the research component, some major differences between a typical doctoral psychology program and a masters level program is length of time spent in training, amount of time spent receiving hands on supervision, and cohort size.

In my PhD program, part of our clinical training included seeing patients in our department operated training clinic. We video recorded all of our sessions (with client consent). We would then review our own tapes and also receive in-depth feedback after review from a more experienced peer supervisor and clinical faculty, along with role-playing, Socratic questioning, evidence-based resources to read, and more. All of this takes a lot of time and resources that I think many masters programs don't have.

I had to buy books and teach myself, which I find inadequate. Completely. As a result of this, I worry too much about interventions and competency. I don’t want to leave clinical work. I want to figure out how to fix these deficiencies. There are really no affordable CBT trainings. Any ideas?

I agree that just reading a book or manual isn't adequate. I'd recommend networking and seeing if there are any quality folks in your area (or virtually) who offer paid individual or group supervision for those who are looking to get licensed (even if you are already licensed). Some do it just to collect a check but there are likely others who are genuinely passionate about helping other providers improve.

YouTube has surprisingly helpful stuff but I've also paid for advanced ACT seminars that were recorded from a live training and found those to be helpful in expanding my knowledge at a reasonable cost.

As for self-driven processes, I've found mapping out my sessions to be very helpful when I began learning a treatment. This helped me to better understand my active role in applying an intervention, which helped me to trust my instincts more and more over time.

 

[biomom]

Thank you for your feedback. I have come to believe that few master’s level providers are prepared to provide care. Sadly, many graduates don’t know what they don’t know. I guess another reason I’m leaning towards going into research.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

I wonder why master’s programs are like this. I know several master’s level providers from different schools who have confided similar experiences.

I left a faculty position at a master's program partially because of this. I thought the program was being unethical for providing such poor training. However, there are exemplary master's-level programs across the country. Unfortunately, they are the exception rather than the rule (from my observations).

There are people looking to change the situation but any change would take a very long time. Additionally, master's programs span fields of study and departments, so that makes things harder.

Sadly, many graduates don’t know what they don’t know.

It is even worse than ignorance. They have enough knowledge to be dangerous.

I want to figure out how to fix these deficiencies. There are really no affordable CBT trainings. Any ideas?

There are a lot of things you could potentially due but it does require work. I am not sure what affordable related to but there are worthwhile places that specialize in training practicing professional (e.g., the Linehan Institute or the Beck Institute). You could find a job with an organization that provides trainings and concentrates on better training their staff. A lot of continuing ed is pretty bad but there are useful ones.

The question is more about what do you want to learn and then finding the way to do it. If you are interested in CBT, joining ABCT would be a good start. The provide numerous resources, their conferences are designed for exactly this sort of thing.

If it makes you feel any better, I always taught my master's students that they wont learn how to help people when they graduate. They will simply get a degree stating that you are good enough to keep learning.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

narrative therapy

What's the evidence base for this treatment? What has it been shown to treat? What is the rigor of the evidence for this treatment?

This does not have to be answered but just an important factor to consider. When you look for training opportunities, I would find the ones with the best evidence rather than those with the most eminence (though, I had never even heard of this treatment till today).

 

[R. Matey]

Master's in counseling programs also tend to operate from the assumptions of the common factors people, possibly out of convenience. My M.A. program did provided good training in supportive interventions and a base of CBT/DBT/ACT skills, but had the same assumption so I sought out CBT training while I was getting my master's license. I went through some of the ACBT trainings using PD money from various agencies where I was working at the time. I do also recommend them. I was also lucky enough to have a psychologist supervisor trained in CBT.

What's the evidence base for this treatment? What has it been shown to treat? What is the rigor of the evidence for this treatment?

This does not have to be answered but just an important factor to consider. When you look for training opportunities, I would find the ones with the best evidence rather than those with the most eminence (though, I had never even heard of this treatment till today).

Narrative therapy probably has as much research on it as somatic experiencing. I think it's basically cognitive restructuring about the past for people who really like Wittgenstein. Ironically, they just call it something different. One study:

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10503307.2013.874052

 

[biomom]

I think it is great that you were able to seek out extra training. My program relied on the common factors assumption and simply provided a dabbling in the various therapies. There was an assertion that no form of therapy was superior, so you should pick what you like and learn it yourself. This frustrated me. The CBT trainings I’ve found are very expensive and are not local to me. I feel a little pissed off that I should pay a lot of money for something I should have learned in school.

The narrative therapy under discussion is narrative exposure therapy. It looks at people’s cognitions and telling their trauma stories and then expanding the narrative. Veterans have a notoriously high drop out rate for traditional therapies like CBT. Drop out rates for NET are lower. Now the question is does it help. This therapy is marked as under consideration by the APA.

 

[R. Matey]

The narrative therapy under discussion is narrative exposure therapy. It looks at people’s cognitions and telling their trauma stories and then expanding the narrative. Veterans have a notoriously high drop out rate for traditional therapies like CBT. Drop out rates for NET are lower. Now the question is does it help. This therapy is marked as under consideration by the APA.

So CPT for people who like Wittgenstein, then. I was curious and found a meta-analysis, not sure I trust it because the treatments studies weren't standardized. I'd stick with a more standardized approach. Idk about the dropout rates: I seem to remember from my VHA trainings that there were dropout myths for PE/CPT that weren't substantiated in the research.

think it is great that you were able to seek out extra training. My program relied on the common factors assumption and simply provided a dabbling in the various therapies. There was an assertion that no form of therapy was superior, so you should pick what you like and learn it yourself. This frustrated me. The CBT trainings I’ve found are very expensive and are not local to me. I feel a little pissed off that I should pay a lot of money for something I should have learned in school.

Thanks, I used PD money to find some trainings and then had supervision from a psychologist already trained on it that I paid for. I had to have a primary agency supervisor also approve the experience as secondary supervision. This is probably the best set up unless you take a master's fellowship (which weren't around back when I was doing my post-MA supervision) and it was expensive. I'm not sure there's a way around that.

 

[foreverbull]

My program relied on the common factors assumption and simply provided a dabbling in the various therapies. There was an assertion that no form of therapy was superior, so you should pick what you like and learn it yourself. This frustrated me. The CBT trainings I’ve found are very expensive and are not local to me. I feel a little pissed off that I should pay a lot of money for something I should have learned in school.

My master’s program was subpar and provided the same “training.” What I was actually taught was just Ivey and Ivey’s interviewing skills (paraphrasing, summarizing, nonverbal encouragers) and we superficially discussed/wrote about predominant theories and how to apply them to clients I saw maybe 4 times at most. To this day, I have no recollection of my supervisors’ theoretical orientations, and I don’t recall receiving any theory training (outside of the one general counseling theories class) or support in supervision relating to theory at all. I know some programs are better than mine, but it concerns me to think my program thought everyone was ready to provide psychotherapy after that.

If cost is a big issue, I would suggest joining a master’s level professional association (with a listserv) in your area and starting your own X theory consultation group by reaching out and asking if any therapists would like to deepen their understanding and practice of a particular theory together, assuming at least one of you has more than superficial knowledge and practice of this theory (or you can, as a group, hire someone to provide consultation weekly and split the cost together). You can review cases from the theory and also discuss aspects of theory and application—the possibilities are many. The trickiest part would be to find folks who are committed to this as a regular practice/meeting, but could be an option.

 

[biomom]

My master’s program was subpar and provided the same “training.” What I was actually taught was just Ivey and Ivey’s interviewing skills (paraphrasing, summarizing, nonverbal encouragers) and we superficially discussed/wrote about predominant theories and how to apply them to clients I saw maybe 4 times at most. To this day, I have no recollection of my supervisors’ theoretical orientations, and I don’t recall receiving any theory training (outside of the one general counseling theories class) or support in supervision relating to theory at all. I know some programs are better than mine, but it concerns me to think my program thought everyone was ready to provide psychotherapy after that.

If cost is a big issue, I would suggest joining a master’s level professional association (with a listserv) in your area and starting your own X theory consultation group by reaching out and asking if any therapists would like to deepen their understanding and practice of a particular theory together, assuming at least one of you has more than superficial knowledge and practice of this theory (or you can, as a group, hire someone to provide consultation weekly and split the cost together). You can review cases from the theory and also discuss aspects of theory and application—the possibilities are many. The trickiest part would be to find folks who are committed to this as a regular practice/meeting, but could be an option.

Can I ask how you overcame the weaknesses in your training to practice competently? That has been my biggest hurdle.

 

[foreverbull]

Can I ask how you overcame the weaknesses in your training to practice competently? That has been my biggest hurdle.

I went through a doctoral program instead of stopping at my master’s degree, so I had 6 more years of training and supervised experience (which includes my postdoc year).

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I would second the recommendation (that others may have also made; I read the first few posts and then skimmed) to seek out peer supervision from someone well-trained in the intervention(s); this is basically the model VA uses to train and certify its providers--receive didactic training and then receive supervision on tape- or video-recorded patient sessions for a certain # of patients and over a certain # of months.

And unfortunately, as you've said, this certainly isn't unique to you or your program. I've worked with multiple masters-level providers who had little to no structured training in therapy upon starting their job.

 

[biomom]

Thanks for everyone’s feedback. It’s given me some things to think about. I’m too old to pursue doctoral training and there are no programs local to me. I’m in a more rural location and there seem to be many groups in the cities 1.5 hours from me. I have found some online trainings through PESI which is a start. There may be some zoom supervision groups with covid.

 

[summerbabe]

I’m in a more rural location and there seem to be many groups in the cities 1.5 hours from me. I have found some online trainings through PESI which is a start. There may be some zoom supervision groups with covid.

Good luck! I have worked with plenty of doctoral level providers who I think are flat out wrong in some of their practice. The key is that they don't know (or want to know) their limitations.

If staying engaged and open to refining your skills and willing to commit time and/or money beyond the bare minimum to maintain a license, I think that's a great starting point. And I'd definitely look into using listservs (any state/local associations) or social media to connect with likeminded others via Zoom.

 

[Goobernut]

Thanks for everyone’s feedback. It’s given me some things to think about. I’m too old to pursue doctoral training and there are no programs local to me. I’m in a more rural location and there seem to be many groups in the cities 1.5 hours from me. I have found some online trainings through PESI which is a start. There may be some zoom supervision groups with covid.

I’m on my phone so this reply will be brief I felt the same way as you did after graduating with my masters. I graduated at 42 with my masters. I sought out a therapy supervisor that was certified in CBT by a national organization, who did record and eval my sessions. Not as many as we wanted, there was some political stuff happening on campus between our departments. I still feel like my training was not as good as it should have been. Because of that I’m going back for my doctorate in clinical social work now at 46. I want to teach in social work as well. I’ll be 50 when I grad. I may be biased, but I don’t think you are too old.

 

[biomom]

I’m on my phone so this reply will be brief I felt the same way as you did after graduating with my masters. I graduated at 42 with my masters. I sought out a therapy supervisor that was certified in CBT by a national organization, who did record and eval my sessions. Not as many as we wanted, there was some political stuff happening on campus between our departments. I still feel like my training was not as good as it should have been. Because of that I’m going back for my doctorate in clinical social work now at 46. I want to teach in social work as well. I’ll be 50 when I grad. I may be biased, but I don’t think you are too old.

Thanks for the feedback. There are two institutions that offer PsyD’s near me, but at 50, I am Leary of the price tag. My MA cost me 60k (outrageous, I know) and I’m still paying on that. A PsyD would add another 100k easily. If I was 30 and had many more working years, I’d go for it. At 50, that sounds more daunting financially. I may do some research into it though (as well as nearby places for supervised training). Thanks for the response.

 

[prodigiousflame]

I'm currently in a counseling program and will be starting practicum in a few months. I feel the same way in that even though I'm learning the theories I'm not sure about how these theories look in practice. Do you have access to your university library as an alumni? My university's library has subscribed to Alexander Street and Psyctherapy.net. They both have counseling example videos using all the different theories. It might be worth reaching out and asking if you can have access to these resources.

 

[chicandtoughness]

I was told I would learn how to be a therapist during my internship. During internship, I was exposed to a variety of ideas, but I was not taught major therapeutic approaches. I had to buy books and teach myself, which I find inadequate. Completely.

So I fully believe that this is a problem with employers and the field as a whole. For masters degree students, the practica/internship is treated (by the employing site) not as a training program, but as cheap, expendable labor. You get some piddly amount of paperwork/logistics training and then get thrown to the wolves to see patients.

Psychologists are better prepared than us because 1) they do about 3-5 years of practica/internship instead of just 2-3 semesters, and 2) their internship is overseen by an organization that accredits them, monitors them for standards, etc. As a result, psychology internships are more structured, have time built in for didactics and structured supervision, and may offer specific "tracks" focusing on specific modalities and orientations. I don't know about the rest of y'all, but my masters placements were largely, "Here do these sessions, and then drop by my office once a week and we'll chat about how you're feeling." I mean, yes that's *technically* supervision, but not structured supervision that really teaches you about the how and what of therapy. And the experience between sites, depending on if you had a ****ty one or a good one, will vary drastically. My first internship site was so bad I quit after 2 days. It was clear no one had given any thought as to how to use me as an intern short of, "Oh yay, another body so our patient ratios are okay! We have 5 therapists now instead of 4 so we can admit 3 more!"

I have a lot of gripes about my masters training and if I could go back and do it all over again.... well, I wouldn't. Masters level therapists are so poorly prepared, that if you don't have the initiative to seek out your own trainings and skirt by with the bare minimum, you will be a horrible early career therapist. Yep, I said it. I've seen it firsthand with colleagues. I'm also psychoanalytically oriented and I was more or less treated as a pariah in both of the masters programs I attended. So that doesn't leave a good feeling in my stomach about it either.

 

[deleted861354]

I left a faculty position at a master's program partially because of this. I thought the program was being unethical for providing such poor training. However, there are exemplary master's-level programs across the country. Unfortunately, they are the exception rather than the rule (from my observations).

There are people looking to change the situation but any change would take a very long time. Additionally, master's programs span fields of study and departments, so that makes things harder.

It is even worse than ignorance. They have enough knowledge to be dangerous.

There are a lot of things you could potentially due but it does require work. I am not sure what affordable related to but there are worthwhile places that specialize in training practicing professional (e.g., the Linehan Institute or the Beck Institute). You could find a job with an organization that provides trainings and concentrates on better training their staff. A lot of continuing ed is pretty bad but there are useful ones.

The question is more about what do you want to learn and then finding the way to do it. If you are interested in CBT, joining ABCT would be a good start. The provide numerous resources, their conferences are designed for exactly this sort of thing.

If it makes you feel any better, I always taught my master's students that they wont learn how to help people when they graduate. They will simply get a degree stating that you are good enough to keep learning.

What would you say are the exemplary masters programs? University of . . . . ?

 

[chicandtoughness]

What would you say are the exemplary masters programs? University of . . . . ?

This are just a few examples, from firsthand experience...
In Texas: University of North Texas (counseling), University of Houston (counseling or social work), UTSA (psychology), UT Austin (social work only)
In Massachusetts: Boston College (one of the best counseling programs in the nation), Boston University (has 2 counseling programs, one is more research based and the other is more clinically based), Simmons (social work only)
I think it's telling that in a state as large as Texas, there are only 3-4 masters programs I would recommend =P

 

[R. Matey]

What would you say are the exemplary masters programs? University of . . . . ?

A few that I can think of:

WA: Western Washington University, (M.S. Counseling), University of Washington (MSW)
MI: University of Michigan (MSW)
IL: University of Chicago (MSW)
WI: University of Wisconsin-Madison (MSW), University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee (MSW)
NC: University of North Carolina-Greensboro (M.S. Counseling)
PA: Penn State (M.Ed. Counseling)

 

[deleted861354]

Thanks so much. Are there any counseling programs in the Philadelphia area you would recommend?

 

[R. Matey]

Thanks so much. Are there any counseling programs in the Philadelphia area you would recommend?

I've heard mixed reviews about UPenn from people who went there. Worth checking into though.

 

[deleted861354]

I've heard mixed reviews about UPenn from people who went there. Worth checking into though.

Thanks. I've also heard there are CACREP programs at West Chester and La Salle. Any word about those?

 

[R. Matey]

Thanks. I've also heard there are CACREP programs at West Chester and La Salle. Any word about those?

Can't say anything about the quality of those programs

 

[DynamicDidactic]

Thanks. I've also heard there are CACREP programs at West Chester and La Salle. Any word about those?

In PA (and most states), CACREP is not needed for licensure. I would not limit yourself to CACREP programs, especially in PA.

 

[deleted861354]

In PA (and most states), CACREP is not needed for licensure. I would not limit yourself to CACREP programs, especially in PA.

Oh, interesting. I feel like I've read in many other places on this board that if you can get into a CACREP program, you really should do it. For a variety of reasons, I am considering trying to get licensed in PA, NJ, NY, and CA, and I imagine going to a CACREP program is the least painful way to do that.

What non-CACREP counseling programs in PA stand out to you as worth considering?

 

[chicandtoughness]

Oh, interesting. I feel like I've read in many other places on this board that if you can get into a CACREP program, you really should do it. For a variety of reasons, I am considering trying to get licensed in PA, NJ, NY, and CA, and I imagine going to a CACREP program is the least painful way to do that.

What non-CACREP counseling programs in PA stand out to you as worth considering?

Ahhhhhhhhhhh.

CACREP is ****. This is the hill I will die on.

Guess who is CACREP accredited? Capella and Walden
Guess who isn't CACREP accredited? The famous Teachers College at Columbia University.

None of the states you have listed require CACREP for licensing. Actually, get this-- only two states require it for licensure (North Carolina, Kentucky). And even then, there are options to petition for equivalency. So do NOT let the desire to work in multiple states limit your choice to CACREP-only programs.

They have a very good lobbying front, which is why you (and others) incorrectly think that CACREP is the crowning jewel of counseling achievement. Actually, amongst the programs that some of us have listed above, some of the best ones refuse to go CACREP (hi, Boston College!) because it would mean diluting their share of good professors and caving to dumb politics. Some days I almost go out of my way to avoid programs that have drank the Koolaid.

West Chester and La Salle are both crap, please don't. La Salle I could make an argument for if you were REALLY really into CBT. UPenn is a decent program but I would say leans more academic (both of my friends who went there are now in PhD programs for psychology or counselor education). Temple is not bad. Chestnut Hill prides itself on being MPCAC accredited vs. CACREP accredited, which I think is telling.

(I also hate PhD programs in counselor education with a passionate, because they are most times predatory, created to give people the impression that they're highly educated, and only serve to line CACREP's pockets. They are the DNP equivalent of the counseling world. But that's an argument for another day...)

 

[R. Matey]

Ahhhhhhhhhhh.

CACREP is ****. This is the hill I will die on.

Guess who is CACREP accredited? Capella and Walden
Guess who isn't CACREP accredited? The famous Teachers College at Columbia University.

None of the states you have listed require CACREP for licensing. Actually, get this-- only two states require it for licensure (North Carolina, Kentucky). And even then, there are options to petition for equivalency. So do NOT let the desire to work in multiple states limit your choice to CACREP-only programs.

They have a very good lobbying front, which is why you (and others) incorrectly think that CACREP is the crowning jewel of counseling achievement. Actually, amongst the programs that some of us have listed above, some of the best ones refuse to go CACREP (hi, Boston College!) because it would mean diluting their share of good professors and caving to dumb politics. Some days I almost go out of my way to avoid programs that have drank the Koolaid.

West Chester and La Salle are both crap, please don't. La Salle I could make an argument for if you were REALLY really into CBT. UPenn is a decent program but I would say leans more academic (both of my friends who went there are now in PhD programs for psychology or counselor education). Temple is not bad. Chestnut Hill prides itself on being MPCAC accredited vs. CACREP accredited, which I think is telling.

(I also hate PhD programs in counselor education with a passionate, because they are most times predatory, created to give people the impression that they're highly educated, and only serve to line CACREP's pockets. They are the DNP equivalent of the counseling world. But that's an argument for another day...)

BC and Columbia are MPCAC accredited partially because they're such strongholds for counseling psych. In recent news, MPCAC is now CHEA accredited, which I think will turn the tables on CACREP in the near future.

 

[deleted861354]

Ahhhhhhhhhhh.

CACREP is ****. This is the hill I will die on.

Guess who is CACREP accredited? Capella and Walden
Guess who isn't CACREP accredited? The famous Teachers College at Columbia University.

None of the states you have listed require CACREP for licensing. Actually, get this-- only two states require it for licensure (North Carolina, Kentucky). And even then, there are options to petition for equivalency. So do NOT let the desire to work in multiple states limit your choice to CACREP-only programs.

They have a very good lobbying front, which is why you (and others) incorrectly think that CACREP is the crowning jewel of counseling achievement. Actually, amongst the programs that some of us have listed above, some of the best ones refuse to go CACREP (hi, Boston College!) because it would mean diluting their share of good professors and caving to dumb politics. Some days I almost go out of my way to avoid programs that have drank the Koolaid.

West Chester and La Salle are both crap, please don't. La Salle I could make an argument for if you were REALLY really into CBT. UPenn is a decent program but I would say leans more academic (both of my friends who went there are now in PhD programs for psychology or counselor education). Temple is not bad. Chestnut Hill prides itself on being MPCAC accredited vs. CACREP accredited, which I think is telling.

(I also hate PhD programs in counselor education with a passionate, because they are most times predatory, created to give people the impression that they're highly educated, and only serve to line CACREP's pockets. They are the DNP equivalent of the counseling world. But that's an argument for another day...)

Well this is sobering. Could you tell me more about your basis for believing West Chester and La Salle are crap? Would my attending either inhibit my employment opportunities after graduating? Eg I am guessing most of the quality of my training is going to come from my own efforts and my supervision experience, rather than the program itself; but if the programs themselves also have a poor reputation in the region, that gives me more pause.

 

[DynamicDidactic]

There are a lot of programs in PA (and every state) that prepare students for licensure as a LPC. It is difficult to know them all well. When looking for a grad program, look for the following:
1. Cost!!!! - don't waste your money on private universities. State universities will give you a lot at half the price. Here is a little trick for PA, some PASSHE programs even offer some tuition remission and stipends. Cost of living area is important as well. The middle of the state is very affordable.
2. Look over the faculty. Perhaps the best indicator of program quality is the faculty quality.
a. Look for the amount of tenured/tenure-track faculty in the program (not the department). If the programs is mostly staffed by adjunct/non-tenure faculty, this is a red flag. If the program has few tenured/tenure-track faculty (I'd say less than 5) this is also not a great sign. It may be hard to figure this out but you have to see which are the counseling/clinical relevant faculty. Not necessarily the faculty that teach stats or methods or the social/developmental courses.
b. Look at balance of early., mid, and late career faculty (assistant/associate/professor). If too many on either side, also a red flag.
c. See if you can find their teaching loads. A 5/5 load for faculty is a red flag (imo). If you find a program with a 3/3 (typically not less than that for these types of programs), that would be the best. A 4/4 teaching load is typical. You can search each semester's courses and see how many undergrad and grad courses the relevant faculty typically teach.
d. Look at ratemyprofessor ratings and especially look for faculty turnover. Turnover is the biggest red flag indicating that the program is so poor that the faculty don't even want to stick around. Trust me, you don't want constantly changing faculty and holes being filled in by adjuncts.
3. If they have their own internal clinic for training, that is a good sign. If they list their externship/internship placements, that will help you as well.
4. Look over the course offerings. See if the course names align with your interests (in comparison to other programs).
5. Do not forget that the degree can be in counseling, mental health counseling, counseling psychology, or clinical psychology. All these different types of programs lead to the same licensesure and each program will discuss this on their website (if they do not, run far away).

 

[deleted861354]

There are a lot of programs in PA (and every state) that prepare students for licensure as a LPC. It is difficult to know them all well. When looking for a grad program, look for the following:
1. Cost!!!! - don't waste your money on private universities. State universities will give you a lot at half the price. Here is a little trick for PA, some PASSHE programs even offer some tuition remission and stipends. Cost of living area is important as well. The middle of the state is very affordable.
2. Look over the faculty. Perhaps the best indicator of program quality is the faculty quality.
a. Look for the amount of tenured/tenure-track faculty in the program (not the department). If the programs is mostly staffed by adjunct/non-tenure faculty, this is a red flag. If the program has few tenured/tenure-track faculty (I'd say less than 5) this is also not a great sign. It may be hard to figure this out but you have to see which are the counseling/clinical relevant faculty. Not necessarily the faculty that teach stats or methods or the social/developmental courses.
b. Look at balance of early., mid, and late career faculty (assistant/associate/professor). If too many on either side, also a red flag.
c. See if you can find their teaching loads. A 5/5 load for faculty is a red flag (imo). If you find a program with a 3/3 (typically not less than that for these types of programs), that would be the best. A 4/4 teaching load is typical. You can search each semester's courses and see how many undergrad and grad courses the relevant faculty typically teach.
d. Look at ratemyprofessor ratings and especially look for faculty turnover. Turnover is the biggest red flag indicating that the program is so poor that the faculty don't even want to stick around. Trust me, you don't want constantly changing faculty and holes being filled in by adjuncts.
3. If they have their own internal clinic for training, that is a good sign. If they list their externship/internship placements, that will help you as well.
4. Look over the course offerings. See if the course names align with your interests (in comparison to other programs).
5. Do not forget that the degree can be in counseling, mental health counseling, counseling psychology, or clinical psychology. All these different types of programs lead to the same licensesure and each program will discuss this on their website (if they do not, run far away).

This is super helpful, thank you! Unfortunately, because my wife and I will be working full time while I'm in school and we have two young kids at school, I really can't devote more than a 40 min commute each way, which limits my options to La Salle and West Chester if I'm going to CACREP route (which others here seem to think doesn't matter); and you're right West Chester would probably save me $20,000. I know UPenn, Villanova, and Drexel have programs, but those are private. Temple is a state school but I don't know if they have a program, will have to look into that. Would the PASSHE programs have to be state programs?

 

[DynamicDidactic]

Would the PASSHE programs have to be state programs?

Our Universities | PA State System of Higher Education

www.passhe.edu

These are the traditional PA state schools.

Penn State, Temple, Pitt, and Lincoln are private-public hybrids (or state-related).

Commonwealth System of Higher Education - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Seemingly, West Chester is your best option.

 

[biomom]

I thought I’d update this. I went back to my primary school advisor and voiced my concerns. I learned that I knew more than I was giving myself credit for. I did some cbt training at the beck institute and some cpt training at the VA with a clinician who is helping me still. My advisor from school is supervising me with CBT. What a difference it has all made. I have done additional CBT and ACT workshops, Emotionally Focused Therapy workshops and am considering dbt this summer.

What a difference this all has made in a short period. Supervision has been super helpful. I also joined a consultation group which has also helped me to grow.

The foundation was there. I just had to start building on it. I’ve got a ways to go, but I’m more confident and I feel I’m going in the right direction.

 

[Mashū08]

I can only chime in with my experience but it has been, um... unique, so maybe my thoughts are worth something.

I did horribly as an undergraduate and so ended up looking into less respected programs and did an MA in "Forensic Psychology" so I could get into the MFT program at the same school. The training in that program was so atrocious, classes taught by ex-addicts who would become near violent if a student questioned the disease model, faculty who couldn't get work anywhere else nor build a private practice, grading so easy it made me cringe watching the type of students getting passed through the program so I applied to their PsyD program in another state.

It pains me to say the training at that program was good, but qualified clinicians came out of that program in spite of the training environment, not because of it and some classes were so easy it was silly but if a student was serious and followed the syllabi they would learn. This in spite of it being the most toxic place I have ever been, work, school, private life, nothing I have ever experienced was that toxic. Open forums for students to talk about anything without faculty presence were shut down by faculty hand picked 4th years before they would even get started. Said hand picked students would report any conversation by other students to faculty that was in any way critical of the program. The internship coordinator who was not even the internship coordinator but would not relinquish her duties because it was her only way of holding students hostage for 4 years and those who did not pay her homage (old widow who used her position to force students to pay her attention or watch out) would find themselves some how not getting a match. Most of those students were students of color-I am not making any of this up unfortunately. I personally was lied to by my advisor about practicum placements, financial aid was like negotiating a time share with the mob, emotionally healthy faculty were gone as soon as they could find other work, one leaving in the middle of the semester after just 3 semester on the job. The thrice divorced former dean who still worked their routinely got his kicks off of making female students cry in class and at "fishbowl" events, grilling them like some trial lawyer trying to make a witness crack, and this is just a fraction of it all, it really was this bad.

I write all that, partly because it's therapeutic for me and the place did lasting damage to my psyche (not kidding), but mostly because if I can come from a program like that and look back on the MA programs I was in before it and the one I am in now (the toxic school closed all of its campuses after the holding company stole all the student financial aid in the spring term of 2019) and say that a program that toxic provided actual training, while the MA programs I have been and am in do not, in any way, provide actual training, I think that is a testament to the state of MA level programs. The one I am in now I have just resigned myself to finish, but most students in it become "life coaches" because they are totally incompetent as clinicians and cannot pass the NCMHCE. One such "life coach" I know/knew, did not even understand confidentiality and while as life coach she was not subject to oversight, she stopped talking to me when I let her know that her breach of confidentiality would be tantamount to licensure revocation if she was an actual clinician. The majority of students are just desperate for mental health services and so low functioning emotionally and cognitively the administration knows it is simply using these people as cash cows.

Hmmm... that kind of got away from me a bit but that has been my experience. MA level programs are not required to provide actual training, so they don't. From a business model standpoint, the only perspective that matters anymore, or ever did, why would they?

Edit: I need to also add I have never been in an MSW program, and only one of the schools I have experience with was associated with an actual... well, school.