"Well rounded" vs "high stats" discussion

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Life of Pablo

Life of Pablo

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I posted this in another thread, but I thought I'd start a topic about it. This topic isn't meant to piss anyone off, I just wanted to hear people's opinions.

I strongly believe that "good" dental schools (UCLA, UPenn, Columbia) care more about the applicant's DAT/GPA than how well rounded the person is. The reason for this is because they want to accept individuals with very high DAT scores, so the pool of applicants that they can choose from is limited. Thus, they are less concerned with the individual's extracurricular activities (they can't afford to be too picky or else they wont get the 23 AA average DAT they are shooting for).
On the other side, schools with more "average" acceptance statistics have thousands of applicants applying with the very same stats (19-20AA and ~3.3-3.6 gpa), so they distinguish candidates based on their extracurriculars.

For example, UCSF is known for strongly pushing diversity in their incoming classes/ well roundedness. Each year they reject quite a few applicants with 23 AA+, and accept a number of people with "lower" stats. Many people with high stats that are rejected from UCSF get accepted to schools like UCLA. Even more interestingly, many applicants that get accepted to UCSF don't get into UCLA. To me, this shows that certain schools do care more about stats then who the person truly is. Let me know your thoughts 🙂

Tl;dr: if you have 23AA+, a decent GPA, and have made some sort of effort to be involved on your college campus, you have an excellent shot at the "top" schools.
 
Life of Pablo said:
I posted this in another thread, but I thought I'd start a topic about it. This topic isn't meant to piss anyone off, I just wanted to hear people's opinions.

I strongly believe that "good" dental schools (UCLA, UPenn, Columbia) care more about the applicant's DAT/GPA than how well rounded the person is. The reason for this is because they want to accept individuals with very high DAT scores, so the pool of applicants that they can choose from is limited. Thus, they are less concerned with the individual's extracurricular activities (they can't afford to be too picky or else they wont get the 23 AA average DAT they are shooting for).
On the other side, schools with more "average" acceptance statistics have thousands of applicants applying with the very same stats (19-20AA and ~3.3-3.6 gpa), so they distinguish candidates based on their extracurriculars.

For example, UCSF is known for strongly pushing diversity in their incoming classes/ well roundedness. Each year they reject quite a few applicants with 23 AA+, and accept a number of people with "lower" stats. Many people with high stats that are rejected from UCSF get accepted to schools like UCLA. Even more interestingly, many applicants that get accepted to UCSF don't get into UCLA. To me, this shows that certain schools do care more about stats then who the person truly is. Let me know your thoughts 🙂
Click to expand...

It is true that these schools do have higher dat scores on average. I do believe that they take ec's into account, but not as much as some other schools do. While there are a few machines who churn a 25AA/4.0 out and aren't social, I would say that most are more well rounded. The more average schools will look more at the ec's than the dat or gpa but they do matter. The average dat is 20.3 and the average gpa is 3.5 so there is something to it.


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Schools in Canada aren't as holistic as those in the US. Generally it is known that if you have X DAT score and X gpa you will get in. It's quite easy to be an excellent student when you don't work or have anything else to do. Obviously there should be some kind of balance between stats and ECs and i think each school weighs things differently. obviously the top schools have a reputation to keep and they get enough applicants that they will find the people who have high stats and great ECs.
 
Spliced said:
Schools in Canada aren't as holistic as those in the US. Generally it is known that if you have X DAT score and X gpa you will get in. It's quite easy to be an excellent student when you don't work or have anything else to do. Obviously there should be some kind of balance between stats and ECs and i think each school weighs things differently. obviously the top schools have a reputation to keep and they get enough applicants that they will find the people who have high stats and great ECs.
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Yeah but I don't think there are as many people with 23 AA's and great ECs as you think there are. In order to keep a DAT average around 23, that means you have around 140 applicants (23 AA is 98-99%tile) in a cycle to choose from IF everyone with that DAT score applies to the school. Do you really think schools will care THAT much about the person's extracurriculars at that point? Maybe but idk.
 
Nathangw said:
While there are a few machines who churn a 25AA/4.0 out and aren't social, I would say that most are more well rounded.
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Almost exactly me lol except for the social part 😛, but I agree in that since they like applicants with high stats just to keep their averages high, like there are SO MANY people applying to dental school and it is SO COMPETITIVE, and if they all have great stats, then of course EC's come into play. I think just in the beginning stats might slightly matter more, but eventually every applicant is looked at as a whole. You wouldn't want 30AA/5.0 robots to be part of your class right?
 
Life of Pablo said:
Yeah but I don't think there are as many people with 23 AA's and great ECs as you think there are. In order to keep a DAT average around 23, that means you have around 140 applicants (23 AA is 98-99%tile) in a cycle to choose from IF everyone with that DAT score applies to the school. Do you really think schools will care THAT much about the person's extracurriculars at that point? Maybe but idk.
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Yea its interesting point, i would like to know the real stats, how many people scored each score. would be cool to analyze
 
artist2022 said:
Almost exactly me lol except for the social part 😛, but I agree in that since they like applicants with high stats just to keep their averages high, like there are SO MANY people applying to dental school and it is SO COMPETITIVE, and if they all have great stats, then of course EC's come into play. I think just in the beginning stats might slightly matter more, but eventually every applicant is looked at as a whole. You wouldn't want 30AA/5.0 robots to be part of your class right?
Click to expand...

Funny because I was speaking to a dentist I shadow and said that its unfair that some asians don't get into dental school with higher stats than other people from other nationalities. He the asked me whether I would want my dentist to always be the same personality and look the same. Diversity is very important for a variety of reasons and one big one is so that we can all learn to coexist and work peacefully together.


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Nathangw said:
Funny because I was speaking to a dentist I shadow and said that its unfair that some asians don't get into dental school with higher stats than other people from other nationalities. He the asked me whether I would want my dentist to always be the same personality and look the same. Diversity is very important for a variety of reasons and one big one is so that we can all learn to coexist and work peacefully together.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
Click to expand...
I agree about diversity, that's super important, but one thing that really gets to me is having everyone that is from Asia (Except Russians I guess) be classified as Asian. Like even on the SAT dude, it's like if you're from the continent of Asia, you are Asian. My high school was like 95% Asian (Taiwanese, Chinese, Korean) but I was counted in that Asian. Idk, just ranting. I'm glad the AADSAS is nothing like college apps and actually has waaaaaay more ethnicities (?) than other things.
 
Nathangw said:
Funny because I was speaking to a dentist I shadow and said that its unfair that some asians don't get into dental school with higher stats than other people from other nationalities. He the asked me whether I would want my dentist to always be the same personality and look the same. Diversity is very important for a variety of reasons and one big one is so that we can all learn to coexist and work peacefully together.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile
Click to expand...

Communication skills are crucial to becoming a successful dentist. Although it may seem like discrimination, there is a general tendency for Asians to lack a certain "passion" for dentistry and lack the ability to communicate their thoughts effectively, and it shows especially through personal statements and interviews.

As an Asian myself, I hate to state whatever I mentioned above but it is a fact of life; no patient cares about your GPA or DAT scores--they only care about how much the treatment costs, how compassionate you are, and whether you can communicate effectively
 
I think schools like the Ivies, UCLA, etc. favor higher stats because their curriculum is more strongly focused on academics (and perhaps building future specialists) as opposed to building wet finger clinicians.
 
amariesa said:
Im not sure about dentistry but for medicine, I know that race does play a large factor. I know this is a sensitive subject and I am 100% for diversity. If we are talking possibilities on why some may get interviews and not others...race could be a factor? Please correct me if I'm wrong for dentistry though.

Stats here: https://2kpcwh2r7phz1nq4jj237m22-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/MedSchool.jpg
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure it's true for dentistry as well, but the pic you posted 😡 everyone is clumped into 4 groups- hate when they do that
 
artist2022 said:
I'm pretty sure it's true for dentistry as well, but the pic you posted 😡 everyone is clumped into 4 groups- hate when they do that
Click to expand...

I grew up poor, in the ghetto, and couldn't speak English... I had to study my ass off to get here and if its true that the color of my skin is affecting my education....that's a tough pill to swallow. At the same time, I understand where they're coming from, its good to have diversity in professions - especially health care. Also...acceptance rates of 21% of one race and 81% of another with the same stats is insane.
 
amariesa said:
Also...acceptance rates of 21% of one race and 81% of another with the same stats is insane.
Click to expand...
e.x.a.c.t.l.y. Born and raised here but "Asian" ...I just googled and it said only 5.6% of the US's population is Asian, while African Americans are 14% but 21% vs 81% acceptances rates are like wack...
and the part of Asia that I'm from is only 0.9% not even a 1 lol yet I hate being clumped into that 5%, which is still not a significant number...I'm just ranting for the Asians out there, Asian Asians or brown Asians lol
 
artist2022 said:
I agree about diversity, that's super important, but one thing that really gets to me is having everyone that is from Asia (Except Russians I guess) be classified as Asian. Like even on the SAT dude, it's like if you're from the continent of Asia, you are Asian. My high school was like 95% Asian (Taiwanese, Chinese, Korean) but I was counted in that Asian. Idk, just ranting. I'm glad the AADSAS is nothing like college apps and actually has waaaaaay more ethnicities (?) than other things.
Click to expand...

That's not necessarily true. I'm middle eastern, so I'm considered white or Caucasian really. I understand that though since my ancestors came from the caucas mountains.
 
SmileItsLife said:
That's not necessarily true. I'm middle eastern, so I'm considered white or Caucasian really. I understand that though since my ancestors came from the caucas mountains.
Click to expand...
I guess I should've said most, the "Middle East" in found in both parts of Europe and Africa, but primarily in Asia, so I get that. My point was more focusing on distinguishing between the major classes of ethnicities vs. just grouping them into 4.
 
Spliced said:
I also think you should factor in IQ. The average iq for blacks is significantly lower than whites- can't remember the number and whites have an iq of around 100. While Asians have an iq that is slightly higher at around 103ish. I think this is also a factor schools consider. It would be harder for a black student to get in because they are already disadvantaged in this sense. Hence, they have to even out the playing field in a sense.
Click to expand...
If you're going to make claims like this, provide some sources... otherwise, you just sound ridiculous in my opinion.
 
caffeine jitters said:
If you're going to make claims like this, provide some sources... otherwise, you just sound ridiculous in my opinion.
Click to expand...
Here is a link that gives the averages by country: https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country
and here is an article which talks about the race gap: The Black-White Test Score Gap
This scientific article which discusses the narrowing of the IQ gap, you will need to access it through your university library. SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class journal research

There are also links showing the average DAT and GPA for certain races is different when applying to professional schools. I believe someone of this thread posted it for medical school. it is generally from highest stats to lowest stats following: asains>whites>hispanics>blacks.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Spliced said:
Here is a link that gives the averages by country: https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country
and here is an article which talks about the race gap: The Black-White Test Score Gap

There are also links showing the average DAT and GPA for certain races is different when applying to professional schools. I believe someone of this thread posted it for medical school. it is generally from highest stats to lowest stats following: asains>whites>hispanics>blacks.
Click to expand...
But the first source is 11 years old and the second is like 20. Things have changed since then...
 
artist2022 said:
But the first source is 11 years old and the second is like 20. Things have changed since then...
Click to expand...
Im sure they have, but do you think everything has become equal? i believe there are some genetic factors involved. You can look for more recent, i just did a quick search.
 
Life of Pablo said:
Ok guys, I didn't mean for this to become a topic on race and intelligence. Let's try to stay on topic 🙂
Click to expand...
I didn't mean for it to go into a race discussion. I just noticed some people saying that they need higher stats to get in. I figured it was part of the selection process schools take into account.
 
artist2022 said:
I guess I should've said most, the "Middle East" in found in both parts of Europe and Africa, but primarily in Asia, so I get that. My point was more focusing on distinguishing between the major classes of ethnicities vs. just grouping them into 4.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what country you are counting as a part of Europe, but I understand the general gist of what you are saying. I also get what you are saying about feelining like a miniority in the race you are s part of......

But I'm not sure why you want to classify by ethnicity instead of race.
 
SmileItsLife said:
I'm not sure what country you are counting as a part of Europe, but I understand the general gist of what you are saying. I also get what you are saying about feelining like a miniority in the race you are s part of......

But I'm not sure why you want to classify by ethnicity instead of race.
Click to expand...
upload_2017-8-17_8-31-36.png


Because I feel like races are so broad while ethnicities are more specific. Going back to my Asian thing, Asian is a race but I don't feel like I belong there because I'm from Southern Asia, completely different from North and East Asia.
 
artist2022 said:
View attachment 222672

Because I feel like races are so broad while ethnicities are more specific. Going back to my Asian thing, Asian is a race but I don't feel like I belong there because I'm from Southern Asia, completely different from North and East Asia.
Click to expand...

Okay. I count Azerbaijan, Georgia, and Armenia as a part of Asia, but I can understand it being counted as Europe. I also agree with ethnicities being more specific, but there are hundreds of ethnicities, so I think that would be hard on the schools part to know and understand each. Most people think I made up my ethnicity in my childhood and even now I get questioning looks. I feel like what you want is the dream, but it probably won't ever happen, which is frustrating.
 
Spliced said:
Im sure they have, but do you think everything has become equal? i believe there are some genetic factors involved. You can look for more recent, i just did a quick search.
Click to expand...

I am morally nauseous. To make such a claim that race influences intelligence is absolutely asinine. There are many factors that affect intelligence. Certain races throughout American history have been oppressed, not allowed to get educations, and faced institutional and systematic racism that play a huge role in one's educational attainment and success. No race is intellectually superior than the other. This thread is headed to an ugly place, please keep it on topic.
 
redhotchiligochu said:
Communication skills are crucial to becoming a successful dentist. Although it may seem like discrimination, there is a general tendency for Asians to lack a certain "passion" for dentistry and lack the ability to communicate their thoughts effectively, and it shows especially through personal statements and interviews.

As an Asian myself, I hate to state whatever I mentioned above but it is a fact of life; no patient cares about your GPA or DAT scores--they only care about how much the treatment costs, how compassionate you are, and whether you can communicate effectively
Click to expand...
Most of the Asians I know are the opposite of what you said because they have grown up in the USA or were born here. I think you're referring to international Asians who haven't grown up in the USA who are fresh off the boat.
 
artist2022 said:
e.x.a.c.t.l.y. Born and raised here but "Asian" ...I just googled and it said only 5.6% of the US's population is Asian, while African Americans are 14% but 21% vs 81% acceptances rates are like wack...
and the part of Asia that I'm from is only 0.9% not even a 1 lol yet I hate being clumped into that 5%, which is still not a significant number...I'm just ranting for the Asians out there, Asian Asians or brown Asians lol
Click to expand...
When you click Asian their is usually a subsection as well like Chinese, Indian, etc
 
dkeencttazl said:
I am morally nauseous. To make such a claim that race influences intelligence is absolutely asinine. There are many factors that affect intelligence. Certain races throughout American history have been oppressed, not allowed to get educations, and faced institutional and systematic racism that play a huge role in one's educational attainment and success. No race is intellectually superior than the other. This thread is headed to an ugly place, please keep it on topic.
Click to expand...
I'm just pointing out a fact. I'm not making any conclusions or causation. There is a lot of research on this topic. we can discuss this as medical professionals or we can simply be ignorant and get offended. As i said this could be a factor among many others.
 
Life of Pablo said:
I posted this in another thread, but I thought I'd start a topic about it. This topic isn't meant to piss anyone off, I just wanted to hear people's opinions.

I strongly believe that "good" dental schools (UCLA, UPenn, Columbia) care more about the applicant's DAT/GPA than how well rounded the person is. The reason for this is because they want to accept individuals with very high DAT scores, so the pool of applicants that they can choose from is limited. Thus, they are less concerned with the individual's extracurricular activities (they can't afford to be too picky or else they wont get the 23 AA average DAT they are shooting for).
On the other side, schools with more "average" acceptance statistics have thousands of applicants applying with the very same stats (19-20AA and ~3.3-3.6 gpa), so they distinguish candidates based on their extracurriculars.

For example, UCSF is known for strongly pushing diversity in their incoming classes/ well roundedness. Each year they reject quite a few applicants with 23 AA+, and accept a number of people with "lower" stats. Many people with high stats that are rejected from UCSF get accepted to schools like UCLA. Even more interestingly, many applicants that get accepted to UCSF don't get into UCLA. To me, this shows that certain schools do care more about stats then who the person truly is. Let me know your thoughts 🙂

Tl;dr: if you have 23AA+, a decent GPA, and have made some sort of effort to be involved on your college campus, you have an excellent shot at the "top" schools.
Click to expand...

I honestly think that many dental students have relatively similar extracurricular experiences (in some clubs, decent amount of volunteering hours, decent amount of shadowing hours) and that stats play a heavy role.

Now if a person has abnormally good extracurriculars (i.e. got published in a very good research journal), then it would help them out

You also need to factor in the undergraduate institution the applicant went to because this definitely plays a role in admissions
 
Spliced said:
I'm just pointing out a fact. I'm not making any conclusions or causation. There is a lot of research on this topic. we can discuss this as medical professionals or we can simply be ignorant and get offended. As i said this could be a factor among many others.
Click to expand...


It is not a fact. Your sources are outdated and weak. Your claim is vacuous. The idea that genes affect intelligence is a very old and long-discredited idea. Leading scientists refute it not because it's provocative or offensive but because it's simply bad science. Intelligence is not skin deep. It's an abstract notion that has a range of attributes. Good luck to you this cycle.
 
dkeencttazl said:
It is not a fact. Your sources are outdated and weak. Your claim is vacuous. The idea that genes affect intelligence is a very old and long-discredited idea. Leading scientists refute it not because it's provocative or offensive but because it's simply bad science. Intelligence is not skin deep. It's an abstract notion that has a range of attributes. Good luck to you this cycle.
Click to expand...
I guess we can agree to disagree. This is the wrong place for this discussion. I simply made an observation. You can disagree with me however, the facts still stand that there is a difference. I never made any conclusions just pointed out an observation and provided sources and a possible factor which goes into admissions process. If you want to discuss it further we can have a formal discussion through pm, i can provide you with more recent research. I have also sent you a pm with an article by the US national library of medicine (recent 2015) about your point of genetics and intelligence.
 
tyjacobs said:
I honestly think that many dental students have relatively similar extracurricular experiences (in some clubs, decent amount of volunteering hours, decent amount of shadowing hours) and that stats play a heavy role.

Now if a person has abnormally good extracurriculars (i.e. got published in a very good research journal), then it would help them out

You also need to factor in the undergraduate institution the applicant went to because this definitely plays a role in admissions
Click to expand...

I've never heard before that your undergrad matters ..... that's sad to hear. Would you consider that to be a big factor?
 
SmileItsLife said:
I've never heard before that your undergrad matters ..... that's sad to hear. Would you consider that to be a big factor?
Click to expand...
Well I think if you have a 3.7 GPA from a strong undergrad then they will prefer you from someone with a 3.9 from a lesser known school. Either way, your DAT has to be strong.
 
Life of Pablo said:
Well I think if you have a 3.7 GPA from a strong undergrad then they will prefer you from someone with a 3.9 from a lesser known school. Either way, your DAT has to be strong.
Click to expand...

SmileItsLife said:
How strong? Like 21+?
Click to expand...

Agreed. The DAT equalizes everyone. A 3.3 from UCLA/Harvard would be looked upon higher than a 4.0 from a school with an extremely high acceptance rate. As for the strength of your score, it depends on a lot of things, but mostly the school you went to and the GPA you got/are getting from there. People doing poorly need the DAT to boost their app, but people doing well still need to do well. 20AA is the average, as in the table @caffeine jitters posted. Strong would be like 22-24+ I guess
 
SmileItsLife said:
I've never heard before that your undergrad matters ..... that's sad to hear. Would you consider that to be a big factor?
Click to expand...

Not sure,

but if you got a 3.3 GPA from harvard vs. a 3.3 GPA from some random school that few people heard of, ADCOMS will obviously look at the 3.3 harvard person more favorably than the other
 
artist2022 said:
Agreed. The DAT equalizes everyone. A 3.3 from UCLA/Harvard would be looked upon higher than a 4.0 from a school with an extremely high acceptance rate. As for the strength of your score, it depends on a lot of things, but mostly the school you went to and the GPA you got/are getting from there. People doing poorly need the DAT to boost their app, but people doing well still need to do well. 20AA is the average, as in the table @caffeine jitters posted. Strong would be like 22-24+ I guess
Click to expand...
This is not true. The adcom members in the med forums discuss this pretty in depth. If the GPA from Harvard is equal to the GPA from some no name school, then the Harvard student would be looked upon favorably. For example, if the GPAs were both 3.7, then Harvard student would get the edge. BUT, if a student from Harvard applied with a 3.3, and a student from No Name School applied with a 3.8, the 3.8 would be favored.
 
Mrdoctorcaptainsir said:
This is not true. The adcom members in the med forums discuss this pretty in depth. If the GPA from Harvard is equal to the GPA from some no name school, then the Harvard student would be looked upon favorably. For example, if the GPAs were both 3.7, then Harvard student would get the edge. BUT, if a student from Harvard applied with a 3.3, and a student from No Name School applied with a 3.8, the 3.8 would be favored.
Click to expand...
Honestly I don't think so....also that might be true for med but this is dental so it could quite possibly be different
 
artist2022 said:
Honestly I don't think so....also that might be true for med but this is dental so it could quite possibly be different
Click to expand...
It's common sense to accept the higher GPA, if everything else is equal (DAT, ECs, etc). Accepting the lower GPA, just because of the undergrad attended, is irrational.
 
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