Western University POD - Statistics and post interview thoughts...

Kanjab

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I interviewed at WesternU for their up and coming pod program and I saw a lot of great things and I also had a few concerns with it being a new program etc.... I would like to hear any other in depth personal opinions from SDN members about their entire program... (pros/cons etc.) I think it would be valuable to hear opinions of other students who have been to interview at western AND other schools since it is such a new program and there is no 'Interview Feedback' section on SDN yet. And if you dont mind I would like to hear GPA/MCAT and if you have been accepted at Western and other schools. I know they want to build a great program and I think it really has a ton of potential and good things going for it, but I am interested in the charter class statistics and information thus far as I know they are trying to keep the class size "small" and tough. Any messages and posts would be great! ((I know there is another post titled 'WesternU interview day', Runner0382 did a great job sharing their opinion, but I didn't think that thread was specific enough and only had one opinion etc. So I started a new one specifically for this. Hope that works with everyone. :)))
 

runner0382

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I've talked at length with Western about some of my concerns, since I am looking to continue the same level of quality education I received in undergrad. I am not looking to attend school with students who got 18-20's on the MCAT since I've been around high-achieving, driven, and intelligent people my whole life (note: I am not saying that the 18-20 MCATers of the world are not intelligent).

The specific question I posed to both the admissions director and to Dr. Harkless was something like, "In the event that you are unable to fill your first year class with 50 quality applicants (which they won't), will you lower your standards to fill those seats or fill a smaller class, even if it's half the size?" They assured me over and over again that they are looking for quality students that they are sure can contribute, and not students about whom they have lingering performance questions.

I know this is just some general info, but I'd be really interested to see what other students have learned, thus far.
 
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Kanjab

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Yeah that is helpful information though for sure. Thanks runner! Are you going to be attending Western? And do you know of anyone else who has been accepted there?
 
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ras1

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anyone know the address and specific building where the interviews are held?
 

Mahikma

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You can find the address on their website it is easy to find once you are on the 10FWY and get off its pretty close by. So mapquest it.. Your best bet would be to check in at the student services building which is one block west of all the construction right past the big green arch that says "WesternU......." hope that helps!
 

NAVYLABTECH08

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I've talked at length with Western about some of my concerns, since I am looking to continue the same level of quality education I received in undergrad. I am not looking to attend school with students who got 18-20's on the MCAT since I've been around high-achieving, driven, and intelligent people my whole life (note: I am not saying that the 18-20 MCATers of the world are not intelligent).

The specific question I posed to both the admissions director and to Dr. Harkless was something like, "In the event that you are unable to fill your first year class with 50 quality applicants (which they won't), will you lower your standards to fill those seats or fill a smaller class, even if it's half the size?" They assured me over and over again that they are looking for quality students that they are sure can contribute, and not students about whom they have lingering performance questions.


I don't understand why other people will impact the quality of your education. Are you saying that Western will admit people with lower MCAT scores and "dumb down" their set curriculum to acheive a higher pass rate. By doing this, you may be not as prepared as saw a student at DMY or Scholl. If this is the case, that school is already setting itself up for failure. Personally, I would love to be in a class with lower than average students. It makes me look that much better as i blow them out of the water academically. :smuggrin:
 

Mahikma

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I've talked at length with Western about some of my concerns, since I am looking to continue the same level of quality education I received in undergrad. I am not looking to attend school with students who got 18-20's on the MCAT since I've been around high-achieving, driven, and intelligent people my whole life (note: I am not saying that the 18-20 MCATers of the world are not intelligent).

The specific question I posed to both the admissions director and to Dr. Harkless was something like, "In the event that you are unable to fill your first year class with 50 quality applicants (which they won't), will you lower your standards to fill those seats or fill a smaller class, even if it's half the size?" They assured me over and over again that they are looking for quality students that they are sure can contribute, and not students about whom they have lingering performance questions.


I don't understand why other people will impact the quality of your education. Are you saying that Western will admit people with lower MCAT scores and "dumb down" their set curriculum to acheive a higher pass rate. By doing this, you may be not as prepared as saw a student at DMY or Scholl. If this is the case, that school is already setting itself up for failure. Personally, I would love to be in a class with lower than average students. It makes me look that much better as i blow them out of the water academically. :smuggrin:
I think you missed the point a little bit. . It is not that the curriculum would change.... it is that you dont want to be at a school that is trying to receive its accreditation and have a large number of students who fail out or do poorly on the boards. If that were the case it would make things much more difficult for you to graduate on time and maybe even get a residency etc. You wouldn't want the residencies wondering "Hrmmm this kid is one of 15 in his class of 50 that barely passed the boards, do any of them even know what they are doing that are from Western??" So student body makeup isn't everything I completely agree with you that its up to you as the student to pass (And be above the lower students in your example) but i do think there are a lot of variables to consider. .
 

NAVYLABTECH08

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I think you missed the point a little bit. . It is not that the curriculum would change.... it is that you dont want to be at a school that is trying to receive its accreditation and have a large number of students who fail out or do poorly on the boards. If that were the case it would make things much more difficult for you to graduate on time and maybe even get a residency etc. You wouldn't want the residencies wondering "Hrmmm this kid is one of 15 in his class of 50 that barely passed the boards, do any of them even know what they are doing that are from Western??" So student body makeup isn't everything I completely agree with you that its up to you as the student to pass (And be above the lower students in your example) but i do think there are a lot of variables to consider. .
I can def see how that could be a drag as a new graduate from a new program. Personally, I would never volunteer 150k in debt to be a trial rat for a new school, especially since there are many good schools out there that are not too terrible to get into. I would not touch Western until at least 1 class has graduated. How long has this program been around?
 

runner0382

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I can def see how that could be a drag as a new graduate from a new program. Personally, I would never volunteer 150k in debt to be a trial rat for a new school, especially since there are many good schools out there that are not too terrible to get into. I would not touch Western until at least 1 class has graduated. How long has this program been around?
First class is this Fall. Western's D.O. is very highly regarded and their students go on to do very well. It's extremely rigorous and selective and has a very good reputation amongst the profession here on the West Coast.

All of their first year classes have done well because most of the architecture is in place. The recent first vet school class had their growing pains, but it sounded like no more than regular pains at other schools.
 
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NAVYLABTECH08

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First class is this Fall. Western's D.O. is very highly regarded and their students go on to do very well. It's extremely rigorous and selective and has a very good reputation amongst the profession here on the West Coast.

All of their first year classes have done well because most of the architecture is in place. The recent first vet school class had their growing pains, but it sounded like no more than regular pains at other schools.

Well, sounds like Western has strong roots and is a proven comidity in regards to pushing out quality healthcare professionals. Like all new things, there will be some bumps along the way. The question is, " is it something you can deal with alongside those tough classes?"
 

Smile786

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So, those of you who had their interviews at Western; how was it? Can anyone share more information about Western Uni. that they learned at their interview? What about their facilities? Like, what will the new class use (new labs or are they sharing with osteopathic students) and who are they going to be taught by (professors with DPM, DO, MD...)? Also, did they mention about what differentiates them from the other schools and what are their goals?

(Thank you for sharing)

:)
 

G0dFather

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I don't understand why other people will impact the quality of your education. Are you saying that Western will admit people with lower MCAT scores and "dumb down" their set curriculum to acheive a higher pass rate. By doing this, you may be not as prepared as saw a student at DMY or Scholl. If this is the case, that school is already setting itself up for failure. Personally, I would love to be in a class with lower than average students. It makes me look that much better as i blow them out of the water academically. :smuggrin:

When you are surrounded with people of less intelligence for a while , you will begin to degrade. Not only that but they will also benefit from you ( if your a caring and helping person) and essentially they will advance and might begin to rival you while you received nothing and continue to remain at the same level. Its a different case when your around people of equal or more intelligence, you'll constantly be competing and advancing your intellect to be on par with your competition. This scenario is analogous to you playing on a sub par sports team. Don't you agree?
 

MaseratiGT

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When you are surrounded with people of less intelligence for a while , you will begin to degrade. Not only that but they will also benefit from you ( if your a caring and helping person) and essentially they will advance and might begin to rival you while you received nothing and continue to remain at the same level. Its a different case when your around people of equal or more intelligence, you'll constantly be competing and advancing your intellect to be on par with your competition. This scenario is analogous to you playing on a sub par sports team. Don't you agree?
The intelligence of those surrounding you in professional school doesn't change your intelligence level. If you're clever and want to succeed, you'll do it, no matter what your classmates are doing. But don't expect that just because you're in the top 10 of your class, that someone from the bottom 50% isn't going to kick your ass in clinic.

If you ARE caring and helpful, (which are probably good attributes to have for future doctors), it doesn't mean that the person you are helping will suddenly become the poster child for Pi Delta. I would say that in pod school, people are pretty consistent across the board with their grades. Helping people in your class will earn you the respect of your future colleagues.

ALL these schools are trying to run a business. The applicant school for podiatry isn't massive. So, you will inevitably have students who didn't do as well as you in undergrad. Someone above me said that WU is looking for quality students who can contribute. That doesn't mean that all the students will have the best GPA or MCAT. They may not have the highest matriculation stats for '13.
 
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WaveOR

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So, those of you who had their interviews at Western; how was it? Can anyone share more information about Western Uni. that they learned at their interview? What about their facilities? Like, what will the new class use (new labs or are they sharing with osteopathic students) and who are they going to be taught by (professors with DPM, DO, MD...)? Also, did they mention about what differentiates them from the other schools and what are their goals?

(Thank you for sharing)

:)
The interview was pretty much similar to the other schools. You get there at 8AM and you leave by 2 PM. Their lunch however was not the greatest (Boxed sandwiches from Quizno's).

Their curriculum is systems based similar to DMU. You will be taking every class the DO students will take with the exception of OMM and 1 other osteo specific course. I believe the dental and optometry students are in the basic science classes. Also Western has a community service course every semester and a interprofessional case study, 1 student from each discipline works together to complete case. The curriculum is not new as it is the same one the DO students have done successfully and the school has a good reputation on the West Coast.
The facilities are not great but they have all the basic needs. They are building two new buildings currently (completed Jan 2010) that will house pod/dental/opt programs, cafeteria, research lab, and new clinics.

Something interesting I took away from the interview was Western "guaranteeing" everyone who completes the program a residency spot. I know they are working with local hospitals, etc. to establish ties, but I do not know if they can guarantee it.

Overall I had a good experience and the pod faculty faculty are awesome.
 

G0dFather

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The intelligence of those surrounding you in professional school doesn't change your intelligence level. If you're clever and want to succeed, you'll do it, no matter what your classmates are doing. But don't expect that just because you're in the top 10 of your class, that someone from the bottom 50% isn't going to kick your ass in clinic.

If you ARE caring and helpful, (which are probably good attributes to have for future doctors), it doesn't mean that the person you are helping will suddenly become the poster child for Pi Delta. I would say that in pod school, people are pretty consistent across the board with their grades. Helping people in your class will earn you the respect of your future colleagues.

ALL these schools are trying to run a business. The applicant school for podiatry isn't massive. So, you will inevitably have students who didn't do as well as you in undergrad. Someone above me said that WU is looking for quality students who can contribute. That doesn't mean that all the students will have the best GPA or MCAT. They may not have the highest matriculation stats for '13.
Ok... with all due respect you missed my point , so i wont argue with u .
 

Smile786

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Great deal of information given!! Thanks WaveOR.

To anyone that can answer:
One more question regarding interviews. I didn't want to open a new thread for this so I will ask here, hopefully someone answers my question.

What is the appropriate interview attire for females? Skirt suit or pant suit. Also, being that it is an interview for Podiatry school; what about shoes? Will 2-4 inch heels (Pumps) make a bad statement (I'm 5'4'' so flats don't look right and that it doesn't look professional)? Last, I have a handbag that is similar to this one (http://www.kennethcole.com/product/...bn=Taxonomy|Shoulder+Straps&parentPage=family) but in black. Will this be professional to take along?

"So much goes into dressing up."
 

damhsoir

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Great deal of information given!! Thanks WaveOR.

To anyone that can answer:
One more question regarding interviews. I didn't want to open a new thread for this so I will ask here, hopefully someone answers my question.

What is the appropriate interview attire for females? Skirt suit or pant suit. Also, being that it is an interview for Podiatry school; what about shoes? Will 2-4 inch heels (Pumps) make a bad statement (I'm 5'4'' so flats don't look right and that it doesn't look professional)? Last, I have a handbag that is similar to this one (http://www.kennethcole.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3458940&cp=3075218.3075279.3075304&fbc=1&f=Taxonomy%2FKCP%2F3075363&pg=5&fbn=Taxonomy|Shoulder+Straps&parentPage=family) but in black. Will this be professional to take along?

"So much goes into dressing up."
Wear whatever you feel most comfortable in. I only had a pencil skirt so I wore that with black tights. I would keep the 4 inch heels at home, not only do they scream "I don't know how to take care of my feet" but you will be standing/walking for several hours. I would stick with 2 inches or less (I wore a kitten heel and my feet felt great after the interview). The handbag is fine.
 

G0dFather

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Great deal of information given!! Thanks WaveOR.

To anyone that can answer:
One more question regarding interviews. I didn't want to open a new thread for this so I will ask here, hopefully someone answers my question.

What is the appropriate interview attire for females? Skirt suit or pant suit. Also, being that it is an interview for Podiatry school; what about shoes? Will 2-4 inch heels (Pumps) make a bad statement (I'm 5'4'' so flats don't look right and that it doesn't look professional)? Last, I have a handbag that is similar to this one (http://www.kennethcole.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3458940&cp=3075218.3075279.3075304&fbc=1&f=Taxonomy%2FKCP%2F3075363&pg=5&fbn=Taxonomy|Shoulder+Straps&parentPage=family) but in black. Will this be professional to take along?

"So much goes into dressing up."
Very nice bag... very classy.. def interview material
 

Smile786

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Sounds good. So then I don't need to buy a new handbag. Yes, I have an excuse for more shoe shopping!!! :D
 

lildelight

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Great deal of information given!! Thanks WaveOR.

To anyone that can answer:
One more question regarding interviews. I didn't want to open a new thread for this so I will ask here, hopefully someone answers my question.

What is the appropriate interview attire for females? Skirt suit or pant suit. Also, being that it is an interview for Podiatry school; what about shoes? Will 2-4 inch heels (Pumps) make a bad statement (I'm 5'4'' so flats don't look right and that it doesn't look professional)? Last, I have a handbag that is similar to this one (http://www.kennethcole.com/product/...bn=Taxonomy|Shoulder+Straps&parentPage=family) but in black. Will this be professional to take along?

"So much goes into dressing up."

I wore a skirt, but you can wear whatever feels comfortable.
Good question about the shoes btw. I saw some people wear stilettos,
and it made me wonder why they wanted to go to Pod school (to fix
their feet themselves maybe?). I wore Natrualizer flats. It didn't look
all that great with the skirt, but hey, it was comfy. Dr. Harkless
commented that he liked my choice in shoes and that I was serious
about podiatry. I knew I sealed the deal right then and there.
Go ahead and put a pair of flip flops in your bag just in case your
shoes kill you at the end of the day. Good luck to you, and maybe I'll
see you in class this Fall.
 

Smile786

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Ya, I thought about buying some Natrualizer or Bandelino (they are comfy too). Its funny that you guys know that I'm interviewing at Western, maybe I gave it away. Anyhow, I'm crossing my fingers and hope to get accepted! Currently, I'm studying for MCAT's and taking it this Friday. I don't understand how I got an interview with my low MCAT score from last year. That's why I had to question about the program, but if I get in; that's all it matters!!! :p
 

PWP

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...what's your definition of low MCAT score?
 
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Smile786

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Well low MCAT score depends based on which school people are applying to. Like for Medical school anything below 27 then its tough competition.
As for Podiatry, I would say anything below 21. So, do Podiatry schools accept students with low MCAT scores but with high GPAs (sci. >3.5 and overall >3.4).

I applied with:
MCAT: <21
Sci: >3.5
Overall: >3.4
Shadowed a Podiatrist
LORS from a professor, podiatrist, and physician
President-co-founder of organization
Other Extracurricular activities: research, volunteering at a hospital, working during last two years of undergrad, and volunteering at a community clinic

The only thing that is pulling me back is my MCAT score. So I hope the interview goes well.
 

AttackNME

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My stats are as follows: 3.31 gpa, 3.28 science gpa. 32L mcat.
After my interview at WU I'm considering going there because of the following reasons:
- Novelty attracts me.
- I will be the first graduating class, which means instead of me watching upperclassmen work with patients on the first year, it's gonna be me (at least thats what I understood from what the profs said)
- Interprofessional case study sounds awesome!
- Vision2015 (their goal which is to have PDM, DO and MD take the same board exams by 2015 which should then give them all the same prestige, which is something that my interviewers claim WU will achieve by 2013, a few years ahead of all the other DPM schools).
- Dr Christianson left temple after teaching their dpms for 20 years because of their inflexibility in changing their curriculum. Instead, he wants to apply a new curriculum to WU, one that already has evidenence in scientific literature that shows it being more successful to the traditional style of aborb-and-regurgitate info and then be expected to remember it by next year. Basically, their classes are organised by systems instead of by subject (you'll be tested on for example the skeletal system and be taught by case-study and examples while using biochem, ochem, physio, etc on how it applies to this system, instead of being tested on physio, biochem, and anatomy separately, ultimately more comprehensive, and requires critical thinking, something way different than the traditional classes)
- A unique course called "essentials of clinical medicine", a course that you take for the first 2 years alongside DO students. their DO students score among the best in their clinicals because of this class, and as a DPM you will be taking that class too.

..and i think that's about it
 

PWP

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My stats are as follows: 3.31 gpa, 3.28 science gpa. 32L mcat.
After my interview at WU I'm considering going there because of the following reasons:
- Novelty attracts me.
- I will be the first graduating class, which means instead of me watching upperclassmen work with patients on the first year, it's gonna be me (at least thats what I understood from what the profs said)
- Interprofessional case study sounds awesome!
- Vision2015 (their goal which is to have PDM, DO and MD take the same board exams by 2015 which should then give them all the same prestige, which is something that my interviewers claim WU will achieve by 2013, a few years ahead of all the other DPM schools).
- Dr Christianson left temple after teaching their dpms for 20 years because of their inflexibility in changing their curriculum. Instead, he wants to apply a new curriculum to WU, one that already has evidenence in scientific literature that shows it being more successful to the traditional style of aborb-and-regurgitate info and then be expected to remember it by next year. Basically, their classes are organised by systems instead of by subject (you'll be tested on for example the skeletal system and be taught by case-study and examples while using biochem, ochem, physio, etc on how it applies to this system, instead of being tested on physio, biochem, and anatomy separately, ultimately more comprehensive, and requires critical thinking, something way different than the traditional classes)
- A unique course called "essentials of clinical medicine", a course that you take for the first 2 years alongside DO students. their DO students score among the best in their clinicals because of this class, and as a DPM you will be taking that class too.

..and i think that's about it
interesting, thank you for sharing and good luck to you.
 

PodunkUDPM

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Mar 9, 2009
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My stats are as follows: 3.31 gpa, 3.28 science gpa. 32L mcat.
After my interview at WU I'm considering going there because of the following reasons:
- Novelty attracts me.
- I will be the first graduating class, which means instead of me watching upperclassmen work with patients on the first year, it's gonna be me (at least thats what I understood from what the profs said)
- Interprofessional case study sounds awesome!
- Vision2015 (their goal which is to have PDM, DO and MD take the same board exams by 2015 which should then give them all the same prestige, which is something that my interviewers claim WU will achieve by 2013, a few years ahead of all the other DPM schools).
- Dr Christianson left temple after teaching their dpms for 20 years because of their inflexibility in changing their curriculum. Instead, he wants to apply a new curriculum to WU, one that already has evidenence in scientific literature that shows it being more successful to the traditional style of aborb-and-regurgitate info and then be expected to remember it by next year. Basically, their classes are organised by systems instead of by subject (you'll be tested on for example the skeletal system and be taught by case-study and examples while using biochem, ochem, physio, etc on how it applies to this system, instead of being tested on physio, biochem, and anatomy separately, ultimately more comprehensive, and requires critical thinking, something way different than the traditional classes)
- A unique course called "essentials of clinical medicine", a course that you take for the first 2 years alongside DO students. their DO students score among the best in their clinicals because of this class, and as a DPM you will be taking that class too.

..and i think that's about it
A lot of this sounds like propaganda put out by Western.

1 - Working with patients the first year? Wow - good luck, when you don't even know what a hallux is.
2 - Achieving Vision 2015 by 2013, but only at WU? What?????? Also, other schools are already in the preparation mode for this so WU is behind to begin with. I know students at some schools are taking USMLE equivalent exams THIS SUMMER to evaluate where pod students are and if they are ready for a USMLE style board exam.
3 - I do admit coordinating subjects would be great. (Talking about the same topics in Pharm and Path at the same time). But it's not that big of a deal and there are always plenty of articles to read if you want to learn outside of lectures.
4 - "essential of clinical medicine" Wow, sounds just like Physical Diagnosis, which I assume is given at every other pod school in America. (Not very unique, unless I'm missing something)

Sounds like a lot of hot air so far....
 

air bud

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A lot of this sounds like propaganda put out by Western.

1 - Working with patients the first year? Wow - good luck, when you don't even know what a hallux is.
2 - Achieving Vision 2015 by 2013, but only at WU? What?????? Also, other schools are already in the preparation mode for this so WU is behind to begin with. I know students at some schools are taking USMLE equivalent exams THIS SUMMER to evaluate where pod students are and if they are ready for a USMLE style board exam.
3 - I do admit coordinating subjects would be great. (Talking about the same topics in Pharm and Path at the same time). But it's not that big of a deal and there are always plenty of articles to read if you want to learn outside of lectures.
4 - "essential of clinical medicine" Wow, sounds just like Physical Diagnosis, which I assume is given at every other pod school in America. (Not very unique, unless I'm missing something)

Sounds like a lot of hot air so far....
i second that. I have a bridge for you....
 

capo

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I think it'll be a good school someday. Any new school looks mixed up but after time and avoiding pitfalls, they'll gain strength. They certainly have a good market area and access to great medical institutions surrounding the area. Give it time. If you wanted a DPM, had no other choice, the school would probably get you there. Remember it is not so much the SCHOOL that gets you there but rather, YOU that gets you there in any school by doing the hard work learning all you can so you can do well on boards. All this name calling and bashing doesn't mean much. Get in a school and bust butt and you will do well, regardless of where you go. Just my .02.
 

AttackNME

Podiatrist
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Feb 22, 2007
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About achieving vision2015 by 2013, they say its possible because their curriculum is very new, and that accreditation for DPM, DO and MD requires a 3step process instead of 2steps like for OD , so at WU their OD is completely accredited, and for their new DPM their 3rd step is in the next year (or year after that i forgot), so by the time the investigators arrive, they expect the curriculum to be in place and fully integrated with the DO students, which SHOULd prove to the investigators that the DPM program is worthy of taking the same exams as the DO students. Its hard to do this for other schools because they have lots of obstacles to overcome before being able to make changes in their traditional curriculum.
Sorry, I re-read my handbook and I realize I gave you wrong information about clinicals. Students see patients on 3rd and 4th year, and as the first graduating class, you won't find another opportunity to see more patients compared to a school like Temple where a 5 students are in the same room with the patient. At WU, they're erecting a new huge 3story building with the 2nd floor dedicated completely to podiatric patients and this is expected to be done by the time we start our clinicals.
I'll be interviewing at DMU this monday and Temple on may14, so this should be interesting.

A lot of this sounds like propaganda put out by Western.

1 - Working with patients the first year? Wow - good luck, when you don't even know what a hallux is.
2 - Achieving Vision 2015 by 2013, but only at WU? What?????? Also, other schools are already in the preparation mode for this so WU is behind to begin with. I know students at some schools are taking USMLE equivalent exams THIS SUMMER to evaluate where pod students are and if they are ready for a USMLE style board exam.
3 - I do admit coordinating subjects would be great. (Talking about the same topics in Pharm and Path at the same time). But it's not that big of a deal and there are always plenty of articles to read if you want to learn outside of lectures.
4 - "essential of clinical medicine" Wow, sounds just like Physical Diagnosis, which I assume is given at every other pod school in America. (Not very unique, unless I'm missing something)

Sounds like a lot of hot air so far....
 

MaseratiGT

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About achieving vision2015 by 2013, they say its possible because their curriculum is very new, and that accreditation for DPM, DO and MD requires a 3step process instead of 2steps like for OD , so at WU their OD is completely accredited, and for their new DPM their 3rd step is in the next year (or year after that i forgot), so by the time the investigators arrive, they expect the curriculum to be in place and fully integrated with the DO students, which SHOULd prove to the investigators that the DPM program is worthy of taking the same exams as the DO students. Its hard to do this for other schools because they have lots of obstacles to overcome before being able to make changes in their traditional curriculum.
Sorry, I re-read my handbook and I realize I gave you wrong information about clinicals. Students see patients on 3rd and 4th year, and as the first graduating class, you won't find another opportunity to see more patients compared to a school like Temple where a 5 students are in the same room with the patient. At WU, they're erecting a new huge 3story building with the 2nd floor dedicated completely to podiatric patients and this is expected to be done by the time we start our clinicals.
I'll be interviewing at DMU this monday and Temple on may14, so this should be interesting.
Vision 2015 can't be implemented by one school alone. It will take a collaborative effort from all of the schools to ensure all of the goals are met. NBPME probably isn't going to let one school take the USLME and all the others take the pod boards. The vision isn't all about taking the USLME. It's about parity. We can achieve parity and still take boards that are similar to the USLME, but have a focus on the lower extremity.

Here at Temple, there isn't always 5 students to a patient. I've been to the clinic a few times this year as a first year, and it has only ever been me, the 3rd or 4th year, and the patient initially. Then the attending comes in. As the class sizes grow, there will probably be times when there are 2-3 students per patient, and more if the case is interesting. But don't expect 5 students per case every time you're in the clinic.

Remember, ALL of the schools print loads of propaganda to get you enrolled. You have to look past it at every interview. It's much easier to do that if you can speak to current students. In Western's case, you'll have to make your way through it yourself.
 

Smile786

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AttackNME,you have great credentials and now I'm kind of worried about getting in.

Anyhow, what is the big hype about Vision 2015? The only thing I understand is that DPM, DO, and MD students will be taking the same board exams. Now if Western states that they will be two years ahead, how is that possible? I thought the board exams were national and are administered by AMCAs...and so forth, not individual schools. What if Vision 2013 is some sort of trail where Western students will be the guinea pigs for this? Last, what is the purpose of Vision 2015?
 

allenmarchallo

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AttackNME,you have great credentials and now I'm kind of worried about getting in.

Anyhow, what is the big hype about Vision 2015? The only thing I understand is that DPM, DO, and MD students will be taking the same board exams. Now if Western states that they will be two years ahead, how is that possible? I thought the board exams were national and are administered by AMCAs...and so forth, not individual schools. What if Vision 2013 is some sort of trail where Western students will be the guinea pigs for this? Last, what is the purpose of Vision 2015?
what would be the point of a DPM student taking the same boards as a MD/DO students??....pod's dont go through OB/GYN, psych, etc...Same could be said about MD/DO's since they dont take detailed courses in path, pod. Sx, biomech., etc.......In the ongoing "respect" debate that pods desire--if they want to receive more from MD/DO's, then they should stop trying to be (the same as) MD/DO's.......That's what makes the DPM degree so unique (to me that is).....Otherwise, I would've applied to traditional md/do school...
 
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Darklord

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pod's dont go through OB/GYN, psych, etc.

Wrong. Yes, we do.

Western University's Curriculum

First Year, First Semester

  • PM 5015 Introduction to the Study of Medicine
  • PM 5025 The Molecular and Cellular Basis of Medicine
  • PM 5030 Gross Anatomy
  • PM 5035 Head and Neck Anatomy
  • PM 5045 The Physician and Society I
  • PM 5080 Essentials of Clinical Medicine I
  • PM 5090 Podiatric Medical Principles and Practices I
  • PM 5099 Service Learning I

First Year, Second Semester

  • PM 5125 Neuroscience System
  • PM 5130 Musculoskeletal System
  • PM 5145 Introduction to Disease, Immunity, and Therapeutics
  • PM 5155 Behavioral Medicine and Psychiatry
  • PM 5175 Blood and Lymphatic System
  • PM 5180 Essentials of Clinical Medicine II
  • PM 5190 Podiatric Medical Principles and Practices II
  • PM 5199 Service Learning II
  • IPE 5100 Integrated Case-Based Learning I

First Year, Summer Semester

  • PM 5290 Podiatric Medical Principles and Practices &#8211; Summer Session

Second Year, First Semester

  • PM 6015 The Physician and Society II
  • PM 6020 Cardiovascular System
  • PM 6035 Renal System
  • PM 6040 Respiratory System
  • PM 6045 Endocrine System
  • PM 6080 Essentials of Clinical Medicine III
  • PM 6090 Podiatric Medical Principles and Practices III
  • IPE 6000 Integrated Case-Based Learning II

Second Year, Second Semester

  • PM 6115 Dermal System
  • PM 6130 Reproductive System
  • PM 6140 Gastrointestinal System and Nutrition
  • PM 6160 Medical Jurisprudence
  • PM 6173 Geriatrics
  • PM 6176 Pediatrics
  • PM 6177 Clinical Integration
  • PM 6180 Essentials of Clinical Medicine II
  • PM 6190 Podiatric Medical Principles and Practices IV
  • IPE 6100 Integrated Case-Based Learning III

Third Year

  • PM 7010 General Medicine
  • PM 7020 Internal Medicine I
  • PM 7021 Internal Medicine II
  • PM 7022 Internal Medicine III
  • PM 7030 Surgery I
  • PM 7050 Elective (Surgical Sub-Specialty)
  • PM 7060 Podiatric Medicine, Surgery & Biomechanics/Orthopedics
  • PM 7070 Pediatrics
  • PM 7080 Psychiatry
  • PM 7090 Obstetrics/Gynecology
  • PM 8055 Essentials of Clinical Medicine V

Fourth Year

  • PM 7510 Internal Medicine
  • PM 7515 General Medicine Ward Sub-Internship
  • PM 7520 Internal Medicine IV
  • PM 7521 Internal Medicine V
  • PM 7530 Surgery II
  • PM 7540 Emergency Medicine
  • PM 7550 Elective
  • PM 7560 Podiatric Medicine, Surgery and Biomechanics
  • PM 7080 Psychiatry
  • PM 8555 Essentials of Clinical Medicine VI
The only difference between the Podiatry and Osteopathic curriculum I notice is: instead of taking OMM classes, we take Podiatry classes. Our rotations are the same.

I think somewhere on the Podiatry Students or Podiatric Physicians section, we talk about experiencing gynecology during our education.
 
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allenmarchallo

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cool....thanks...wasnt aware of their curriculum (since i'm going to OCPM)....My question still wasn't answered....., what will taking the USMLE prove??...Are you going to get a joint DPM/DO degree out of it???---No........Do you get bragging rights, saying by "yah!, I took the USMLE's & made a great score!!!??--so??......Are you gonna be able to do a MD/DO residency???---no........


But if I'm wrong with anything I said, please point it out!!.....I just don't understand what the "point" actually is, with taking USMLE's...:shrug:.....but then again, I'm only a lowly pre-pod...
 

PodunkUDPM

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Third Year

  • PM 7010 General Medicine
  • PM 7020 Internal Medicine I
  • PM 7021 Internal Medicine II
  • PM 7022 Internal Medicine III
  • PM 7030 Surgery I
  • PM 7050 Elective (Surgical Sub-Specialty)
  • PM 7060 Podiatric Medicine, Surgery & Biomechanics/Orthopedics
  • PM 7070 Pediatrics
  • PM 7080 Psychiatry
  • PM 7090 Obstetrics/Gynecology
  • PM 8055 Essentials of Clinical Medicine V

Fourth Year

  • PM 7510 Internal Medicine
  • PM 7515 General Medicine Ward Sub-Internship
  • PM 7520 Internal Medicine IV
  • PM 7521 Internal Medicine V
  • PM 7530 Surgery II
  • PM 7540 Emergency Medicine
  • PM 7550 Elective
  • PM 7560 Podiatric Medicine, Surgery and Biomechanics
  • PM 7080 Psychiatry
  • PM 8555 Essentials of Clinical Medicine VI
These most likely are not courses, they are clinical rotations. So NO, it is not the same as MD/DO. And anyhow, MD's and DO's take actual lecture courses on these topics in their first 2 years in school and are tested on them on part 1 of their respective boards (USMLE/COMLEX). So it still isn't the same. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I doubt you would take these as courses AND do rotations. In any case, it still is not the same as the MD/DO setup.
 

Darklord

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.How can you do the rotations without taking the course LOL. It's like same I'm going to help the deliver a kid without taking the course and knowing anything about the reproductive system! ROFL

Of course we learn how to deliver kids. I said the curriculum was exactly the same except for OMM and Podiatry classes:.

  • .PM 6115 Dermal System.
  • .PM 6130 Reproductive System...
  • .PM 6140 Gastrointestinal System and Nutrition.
  • .PM 6160 Medical Jurisprudence.
  • .PM 6173 Geriatrics.
  • .PM 6176 Pediatrics.
  • .PM 6177 Clinical Integration.
  • .PM 6180 Essentials of Clinical Medicine II.
  • .PM 6190 Podiatric Medical Principles and Practices IV.
  • .IPE 6100 Integrated Case-Based Learning III.
.
The point is to have PARITY with the MDs and DOs. Podiatrists want to call themselves PHYSICIANS, so they have to prove it. We want equal reimbursement. We want hospital priveleges. We want to do surgery. We want to prescribe drugs. So we have to earn the right. We have to show the a podiatrist is the same as any other doctor.

AllenMarcho, all other physicians learn these basic systems and these basic clinical sciences. An allergy specialist, at one time, learned the reproductive system and delivered a kid in his/her rotations. He/she had to pay his dues and learn the basic medical sciences. He/she didn't say, I want to go into allergy-gynecology is useless. We as podiatrists also take these basic sciences. We are moving towards equality with our MD/DO counterparts. Our curriculum are moving closer and closer together. However, curriculum and coursework is not the same everywhere. The only real way to prove that we are receiving equal education is by taking their big national exam: the USMLE. The Osteopaths did it. That is how they were granted equality. Now, we as podiatrists, have to do the same.

Same education, same exams= equality. That is what we want.

I couldn't find OCPMs curriculum online. A student log in page showed up whenever I clicked on the curriculum link..
 

Darklord

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To prove the point of similarity: I'm posting Western U's DO Curriculum:

Semester 1

  • DO 5015 Introduction to the Study of Medicine
  • DO 5025 The Molecular and Cellular Basis of Medicine
  • DO 5030 Gross Anatomy
  • DO 5035 Head and Neck Anatomy
  • DO 5045 The Physician and Society I
  • DO 5080 Essentials of Clinical Medicine I
  • DO 5090 Osteopathic Principles and Practice I
  • DO 5099 Service Learning I

Semester 2

  • DO 5125 Neuroscience System
  • DO 5130 Musculoskeletal System
  • DO 5145 Introduction to Disease, Immunity, and Therapeutics
  • DO 5155 Behavioral Medicine and Psychiatry
  • DO 5175 Blood and Lymphatics System
  • DO 5180 Essentials of Clinical Medicine II
  • DO 5190 Osteopathic Principles and Practice II
  • DO 5199 Service Learning II

Semester 3

  • DO 6015 The Physician and Society II
  • DO 6020 Cardiovascular System
  • DO 6035 Renal System
  • DO 6040 Respiratory System
  • DO 6045 Endocrine System
  • DO 6080 Essentials of Clinical Medicine III
  • DO 6090 Osteopathic Principles and Practice III

Semester 4

  • DO 6115 Dermal System
  • DO 6130 Reproductive System
  • DO 6140 Gastrointestinal System and Nutrition
  • DO 6173 Geriatrics
  • DO 6176 Pediatrics
  • DO 6177 Clinical Integration
  • DO 6180 Essentials of Clinical Medicine IV
  • DO 6190 Osteopathic Principles and Practice IV

Semester 5 & 6

  • Rotation - Family Medicine (4 weeks)
  • Rotation - Internal Medicine: General (4 weeks)
  • Rotation - Internal Medicine: General (4 weeks)
  • Rotation - Internal Medicine: Specialty (4 weeks) (e.g. GI, Cardiology, or Neurology)
  • Rotation - Surgery: General (4 weeks)
  • Rotation - Pediatrics (6 weeks)
  • Rotation - Psychiatry (4 weeks)
  • Rotation - Obstetrics/Gynecology (6 weeks)
  • Rotation - Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine (4 weeks)
  • Rotation - Elective (4 weeks)

Semester 7 & 8

  • Rotation - Emergency Medicine (4 weeks)
  • Rotation - Medicine Sub-Internship (4 weeks) (e.g. Family, Internal, Pediatrics, Geriatrics)
  • Rotation - Surgery Sub-Internship (4 weeks) (general, subspecialty or procedural specialty)
  • Rotations - Elective (28 weeks)
 

feets22

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Do they not take a course in Lower Extremity Anatomy.....am I missing it or is it just called something different there? Their curriculum is seriously flawed without a course that concentrates on the anatomy of the lower limb.
 

allenmarchallo

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The point is to have PARITY with the MDs and DOs. Podiatrists want to call themselves PHYSICIANS, so they have to prove it. We want equal reimbursement..---ok, that's being worked on with Vision2015 We want hospital priveleges. We want to do surgery. We want to prescribe drugs.----DPM's already do these things...So we have to earn the right. We have to show the a podiatrist is the same as any other doctor. ------But a DPM ISN'T the same as a general "physician"...They are "Podiatric Physicians"......Thats why the school is called: #### College/School of PODIATRIC Medicine & not: #### College of Medicine...

AllenMarcho, all other physicians learn these basic systems and these basic clinical sciences. An allergy specialist, at one time, learned the reproductive system and delivered a kid in his/her rotations. He/she had to pay his dues and learn the basic medical sciences. He/she didn't say, I want to go into allergy-gynecology is useless ----This is why he went to TRADITIONAL Medical school, so he could specialize AFTERWARDS.... We as podiatrists also take these basic sciences...We are moving towards equality with our MD/DO counterparts. Our curriculum are moving closer and closer together. However, curriculum and coursework is not the same everywhere. The only real way to prove that we are receiving equal education is by taking their big national exam: the USMLE. The Osteopaths did it. That is how they were granted equality. Now, we as podiatrists, have to do the same. ---Once again, Pods WON'T be doing any MD/DO residencies, so whats the big deal with taking the USMLE/COMLEX???---Just for the MD/DO's to know that we took it??--big deal...If pod's wanted to take such exams, then go to traditional MD/DO school....Pod's can't try go through the back-door and get equality....For example, look @ admissions...avg. MD/DO MCAT: >27....Pod. MCAT < 22.(avg)...Same with GPA...3.7< avg. VS < 3.4 (avg)...Sorry, but that's fact....If the DPM community wants more respect then schools should raise the bar & attract higher caliber students...(NO disrepect to anyone on grades/MCAT, I'm just trying to get the point across)-----Do that, then I guarantee, more "respect" will come...

Same education, same exams= equality. That is what we want.

I couldn't find OCPMs curriculum online.http://www.ocpm.edu/students/catalog/catalog2008_2009.pdf ------page 35 shows the curriculum... A student log in page showed up whenever I clicked on the curriculum link..

I wrote the stuff in the bold...I respect the fact that pods. are wanting this to happen, but realistically, I dont see how it'll happen....:shrug:
 

PodunkUDPM

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.How can you do the rotations without taking the course LOL. It's like same I'm going to help the deliver a kid without taking the course and knowing anything about the reproductive system! ROFL
.
It's called learn as you go. In residency you may do many rotations where you never really had a course in the subject, but brushed over the topics in various courses. The curriculum you posted looks basically identical to the curriculum of every of pod school curriculum. There's a reason they are called the "basic sciences".
 

PodunkUDPM

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Fall Semester
Gross Anatomy
Histology
Biochemistry
Podiatric Medicine I
Introduction to Medicine

Spring Semester
Lower Extremity Anatomy
Neurobiology
Physiology
Basic Microbiology and Immunology
Physical Diagnosis

Summer Semester
Biomechanics
Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation
Physical Diagnosis
Radiation Safety

Second Year Program

Fall Semester

Microbiology and Infectious Disease
Pathology
Pharmacology and Therapeutics
Biomechanics
Podiatric Medicine II

Spring Semester

Pathology Case Study
Pathology
Pharmacology and Therapeutics
Podiatric Medicine II
Podiatric Medical Skills
Radiology
Introduction to Podiatric Surgery

This year also includes a standardized patient rotation.

Fall Semester

Public Health Jurisprudence
Neurology
Dermatology
General Medicine
Podopediatrics
Podiatric Surgery
*Psych
*Womens Studies

Spring Semester

General Medicine
Sports Medicine
Podiatric Surgery
Traumatology

The third year program also includes clinical rotations throughout all departments of the College and clinic.

Fourth Year Program

Clincal
Clerkships
20 weeks mandatory, 4 weeks optional
Cleveland Foot & Ankle Clinic / VA
16 weeks
Physical Diagnosis & Medicine Rotation
4 weeks
Semester Total
48 weeks

Didactic
Business Administration
 
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PodunkUDPM

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Sorry about that format, but I couldn't get it to work. That is what OCPM's curriculum looks like. They are also adding a Psych class and a women's studies class to the 3rd year.
 

MaseratiGT

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.How can you do the rotations without taking the course LOL. It's like same I'm going to help the deliver a kid without taking the course and knowing anything about the reproductive system! ROFL

Of course we learn how to deliver kids. I said the curriculum was exactly the same except for OMM and Podiatry classes:.

  • .PM 6115 Dermal System.
  • .PM 6130 Reproductive System...
  • .PM 6140 Gastrointestinal System and Nutrition.
  • .PM 6160 Medical Jurisprudence.
  • .PM 6173 Geriatrics.
  • .PM 6176 Pediatrics.
  • .PM 6177 Clinical Integration.
  • .PM 6180 Essentials of Clinical Medicine II.
  • .PM 6190 Podiatric Medical Principles and Practices IV.
  • .IPE 6100 Integrated Case-Based Learning III.
.
The point is to have PARITY with the MDs and DOs. Podiatrists want to call themselves PHYSICIANS, so they have to prove it. We want equal reimbursement. We want hospital priveleges. We want to do surgery. We want to prescribe drugs. So we have to earn the right. We have to show the a podiatrist is the same as any other doctor.

AllenMarcho, all other physicians learn these basic systems and these basic clinical sciences. An allergy specialist, at one time, learned the reproductive system and delivered a kid in his/her rotations. He/she had to pay his dues and learn the basic medical sciences. He/she didn't say, I want to go into allergy-gynecology is useless. We as podiatrists also take these basic sciences. We are moving towards equality with our MD/DO counterparts. Our curriculum are moving closer and closer together. However, curriculum and coursework is not the same everywhere. The only real way to prove that we are receiving equal education is by taking their big national exam: the USMLE. The Osteopaths did it. That is how they were granted equality. Now, we as podiatrists, have to do the same.

Same education, same exams= equality. That is what we want.

I couldn't find OCPMs curriculum online. A student log in page showed up whenever I clicked on the curriculum link..
Taking the USMLE does not equal parity. Additionally, osteopathic students take the COMLEX, and are not required to take the USLME. Most of the points you listed as areas we should prove our education in are resolved. In many states, and under Medicare, pods are already physicians. Without the USMLE. Pods can get hospital privileges, perform surgery, and already have full prescribing power.

Greater points of Vision 2015 are equal reimbursements (which you mentioned), and Title XIX.

Basic medical sciences in a graduate school are not speciality courses like derm, ob-gyn, etc. It's courses like biochem, histo, and physiology. Not all podiatry schools require an actual course in something like ob. If they course is in the third year, it's probably a rotation. The course on reproduction may be histologically, anatomically, and physiology based; as part of a system-based learning philosophy. You probably won't learn how to deliver a baby, if at all, until a rotation.
 

Darklord

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I believe system based learning is gaining popularity and is the new norm.

However Barry and OCPM are still doing it the old way-whatever it is called. I mean do the courses overlap- do you learn the system in different classes at the same time? I mean you take the Physio of a system in one semester and one year later you learn the pathology of it and how it can go wrong? I would definitely hate the learn that way.

I believe the basic sciences of system based curriculum are spread out throughout all the systems and learned system by system.

True, you won't know how to deliver a baby until you learn the procedure during rotations. For some reason, I was envisioning delivering a baby during residency and skipping rotations.

The DOs take the COMLEX. I was aware of this; however, thye take the USMLE if they want a MD residency, which of course, all of them do. In the end, they end up taking both.

I believe same education equals parity. Taking the USMLE is a major step towards having the same education-especially since there is a new podiatry program at one of the best DO schools in the country.

By the way, Barry had externships on their curriculum, what are they?
 

244869

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I don't think the answer is for pods to take the usmle or the comlex...i think the current boards are fine but they should start releasing scores instead of making it pass/fail. This will give another criteria for residency programs to look at.

And the gpa/mcat thing...this is always brought up...eventually when podiatry becomes more mainstream the average accepted stats will increase. It wasnt long ago when DO average gpa/mcat was 3.3/25 and schools like DMU and Scholl already have these averages.

EDIT: DO averages are currently 3.3sci gpa/25mcat
 
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Darklord

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I think the whole point of this is to make podiatry mainsteam DPMHopeful.

You will be taking the same classes as the MDs and DOs, so why not take the USMLE?

We should make podiatry more like a medical specialty (which it is)-like Cool-Vkb argued.

Do it like the MDs do. You take the MLEs then your board exams.
 

PodunkUDPM

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I think the whole point of this is to make podiatry mainsteam DPMHopeful.

You will be taking the same classes as the MDs and DOs, so why not take the USMLE?

We should make podiatry more like a medical specialty (which it is)-like Cool-Vkb argued.

Do it like the MDs do. You take the MLEs then your board exams.
I can understand your point of view, but then some people think, why not eliminate the DPM altogether and just have more orthopods or an equivalent MD takeover. I think being different from MDs is an important factor that gives DPMs a special niche in the health care system.
 

capo

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I can understand your point of view, but then some people think, why not eliminate the DPM altogether and just have more orthopods or an equivalent MD takeover. I think being different from MDs is an important factor that gives DPMs a special niche in the health care system.
Having the equivalent MD wouldn't hurt. But they don't need it to bill insurance. Only in a few patient's (and maybe some old doctor's) eyes would they be scorned against w. out the MD. Most people care less about the title and want the work done. If you are a roofer yet fix the drain on Wilber and Martha's retirement home, will they care you aren't a plumber or drain cleaner? No, it is fixed and won't leak, so they're happy. Same goes for healthcare. (Or car repairs, electricians, cab drivers, florists, etc.). :)
 

244869

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I think the whole point of this is to make podiatry mainsteam DPMHopeful.

You will be taking the same classes as the MDs and DOs, so why not take the USMLE?

We should make podiatry more like a medical specialty (which it is)-like Cool-Vkb argued.

Do it like the MDs do. You take the MLEs then your board exams.
But what's the point? Board exams are given to test for proficiency of the material. Podiatry is focused on lower extremity...which im sure the pod boards reflect. Do the USMLE's provide the same focus?

What has made podiatry such a "threat" to ortho foot and ankle is the pursuit of independence. As PodunkUDPM said Podiatrists occupy a unique niche in healthcare...the boards should reflect this.
 
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