What Are My Chances and Other General Questions

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don't underestimate the scores you need for TX. do your best on the MCAT. if you make 30+, you should be ok. i don't think having taking the test twice will count against you unless you score <30 again.

TMDSAS isn't much different from AMCAS. the app will be sent to schools without the scores, but your app most likely won't get reviewed until they're in.

i don't see a problem with submitting and then waiting for results though.

good luck!

Thanks!

(Definitely gunning for a ~29+... meh)

So basically, there's no harm or benefit to completing the TMDSAS but not releasing MCAT scores to the TMDSAS until my May results are in?
 
Thanks for the opinion; guess the mods insisted on merging my thread.

I was kind of hoping to be a really early bird - complete by 05/31 - but that's out the window. But being complete by mid-late July isn't terrible, I guess.

Also, I am currently taking chem 2 and bio 2 - yeah, took the MCAT in January without those two classes, daring/stupid of me - so hopefully, that in itself will help.

The timeframe of TX apps is shifted. I believe you can submit in May and interviews start as early as July. I would try to be complete mid June at the latest. Those interview spots fill up quick and if you don't have a stellar app this could hurt you.
 
Thanks!

(Definitely gunning for a ~29+... meh)

So basically, there's no harm or benefit to completing the TMDSAS but not releasing MCAT scores to the TMDSAS until my May results are in?

the benefit would be that your app would be processed and already at schools when your scores are in. I would definitely do this.

If you wait to submit your app until scores are back, you could be waiting for processing and ultimately delaying the release of your app to schools.
 
To the OP: you definitely have a good shot at getting into a medical school. Apply early and broadly! Make sure that you look into loans and such, too. Most schools will not give you much (if anything), and no US banks will loan you money without a US cosigner. Some schools require a $250,000 escrow before issuing you visa paperwork, so be aware of this. Good luck! I think you will be fine.
 
To the OP: you definitely have a good shot at getting into a medical school. Apply early and broadly! Make sure that you look into loans and such, too. Most schools will not give you much (if anything), and no US banks will loan you money without a US cosigner. Some schools require a $250,000 escrow before issuing you visa paperwork, so be aware of this. Good luck! I think you will be fine.

By the time I apply, I will be eligible for federal loans though.
 
the benefit would be that your app would be processed and already at schools when your scores are in. I would definitely do this.

If you wait to submit your app until scores are back, you could be waiting for processing and ultimately delaying the release of your app to schools.

Oh, and I assume that secondary apps will go out from the schools to which I apply even without me having my (two) MCAT scores released to the TMDSAS, correct?
 
Oh, and I assume that secondary apps will go out from the schools to which I apply even without me having my (two) MCAT scores released to the TMDSAS, correct?
the secondary apps are automatic at the Texas schools.

you really need to retake that MCAT though, even just to get that 6 up.
 
Oh, I definitely am. May 23rd, bright and early.

Thanks for the MDApps comment, btw.
 
Oh, and I assume that secondary apps will go out from the schools to which I apply even without me having my (two) MCAT scores released to the TMDSAS, correct?

you can submit secondaries as soon as you submit your TMDSAS, regardless of MCAT. they are processed through the TMDSAS website as well.
 
anyone have any takes on my situation on page 8? I'm feelin a bit neglected here 🙁
 
Hey all, I'm a canadian and was wondering what my stats were. I know they aren't GREAT for top tier, but was hoping to apply to some lower tier schools like SUNY Upstate, RFU, NYMC and such.

GPA 3.32
MCAT 35T (11v/13p/11b)

Lets see interms of non academic
2 years of developping policies and making new patient pre transplant assessment forms that are automated for a hematology clinic at a big hospital in toronto.
3 years of clinical research with 3 poster presentations and 1 major publication coming in Blood with me as second author, follow up pending
50 hours of piano playing at a seniors home to entertain the old ladies
100 volunteer hours at random places

One LOR from a former transplant program director(knows me 3 years), one from a nurse(1 year), two profs(only two courses each, don't know me too ewll, using them for jsut academic reference).

What are my chances? We don't have premed advisors here in canada.

Shoot it to me straight boys and girls, what are my chances in america?

I'm not too up to speed on the Great White North's medical student contributions to this country, but in general, I'd say you've got a solid MCAT but a GPA several tenths below the mean in many states. You also seem to have a decent set of ECs and LoRs, meaning that so long as you're not gunning for the Ivies, I'd imagine that really early, broad applications would probably get you in the door and hopefully a few acceptances from there. But I do mean early and broad, since a 3.3 puts you solidly below the norm.

Just my $.02 based on my highly SDN-fueled understanding of things; others may or may not agree.
 
anyone have any takes on my situation on page 8? I'm feelin a bit neglected here 🙁

your GPA is a bit low, but you have a great MCAT. i think your international status might also complicate things.

make sure you really research which schools accept int'l applicants. i'm not sure that the schools that you mentioned do (but I could be wrong I haven't done the research either).

are you still in school? if so, do everything possible to boost your gpa. if not, you might still have a shot. apply broadly and to a lot of schools.

are canadian schools out for you?
 
I dont even know why im posting but I should give it a shot -

I am a student from pennsylvania who graduated high school in 2006. Unfortunately I had family members dying because of cancer, and now currently have 60 credits with a 2.8 GPA. I could do a lot better but the situation at home took up most of my time, and I would spend countless restless nights at home and it took a toll on my average.

I have volunteered at the hospital here for a couple of months.

I havent taken the MCAT yet, and had an idea of what I wanted to do. I want to move down to Miami, where I have a place to live, and some peace and quiet for me to focus entirely on school. I applied to FIU to finish my pre-med. What I did was not take my sciences yet, because I know they are the most important classes. I wanted to take my sciences at a big university (FIU) and get all A's to try and bring my GPA up a bit.

I know without a doubt ill be over a 3.7 science GPA, but the 2.8 undergrad GPA haunts me everyday. is it too late for me? or do I still have a fighting chance if I keep volunteering, do some research work, and do great on the MCAT?

Thanks for the help guys,
Eddy
 
AMCAS will average all of your classes together, so your gpa will reflect your prior difficulties. i think the upward trend bodes well, but if you can't get your gpa to a 3.3 at least i would think about applying DO as well.

your chances also depend on your MCAT score. since you haven't taken it yet, it's hard to tell really where you stand, but i think that with a great mcat score and solid ECs you have a chance.

work as hard as you can and reevaluate where you are after you finish your pre-reqs and the MCAT.
 
Thanks for the quick response, jolie.

I was wondering something about the MCAT - do they take the average of all your tries, or the best score that you got?

Thanks again,
Eddy
 
Thanks for the quick response, jolie.

I was wondering something about the MCAT - do they take the average of all your tries, or the best score that you got?

Thanks again,
Eddy

it depends on the school.

however, plan to take the test ONLY once. study hard and don't take it until you're consistently scoring well on practice tests.
 
your GPA is a bit low, but you have a great MCAT. i think your international status might also complicate things.

make sure you really research which schools accept int'l applicants. i'm not sure that the schools that you mentioned do (but I could be wrong I haven't done the research either).

are you still in school? if so, do everything possible to boost your gpa. if not, you might still have a shot. apply broadly and to a lot of schools.

are canadian schools out for you?
Thanks for the response exi and Jolie south!

Canadian schools are kinda out for me cuz I live in Ontario, where I meet the strict firm MCAT cutoffs of 30 and above and a minimum of 10 in each section but dont meet the various crazy gpa cutoff algorithms which I won't get into. I'm going to graduate in May of this year, but I need my second physics requirement which i will finish by end of June(the Ontario schools don't require any physics). The schools I checked say that canadians are treated as OOS and those schools tend to have average accepted averages of around 3.5. These are SUNY Upstate, RFU which has average accepted GPAs around 3.45 and and Wayne state with 3.57 and NYMC with around 3.54 I believe. Tufts i think is also around 3.5ish. They all seem to treat Canadians the same as residents of US according to their website FAQs. If I apply early and tell them that i will have my physics credit by July, what are my chances then?
 
*top 3 liberal arts college
b.a. philosophy
concentrations: pre-med, music
graduating in may [maybe?]

*grades
overall gpa: 3.41
bcpm gpa: 3.00
major gpa: 3.63


*mcat: 34S - (10 VR 14 PS 10 BS) [jan 26th, 2008]


*state of residency: NC


*research after freshman year at ECU Med School; stem cell research
*research after junior year at National Institutes of Health @ NEI, National Eye Institute
*shadowing throughout the years -- nothing official but that can be managed


*extra-curriculars:

-a cappella all 4 years
-indian club president 1 year
-dance team, 1 year
-intramural basketball all 4 years
-fraternity, 3 years
-singer-songwriter [does this count, I have an album coming out?], all 4 years
-sat tutor
-national philosophy conference at pacific u.



-----

I know I have a **** science gpa and nothing that impressive. I'm just wondering if I can get into some allopathic US Med School. I'm from NC, so maybe ECU Med School? or Drexel? or VCU? or Temple? or Tulane? or Howard?

Do I need to do a post-bacc or take extra classes to make my application passable? I realize how competitive it is now and how my 34 probably can't really make up for my poor academics




ps - I don't really want to go to med school.
 
ps - I don't really want to go to med school.
But you still want people to rate you? Lol. Is this a joke? I'm sure there are lots of people out there with a 40 MCAT who would make bad doctors. Someone once disagreed with me about this...but I think it's true. Someone out there really wants your seat and for you to take it would be unfair.

It's because you're Indian, and you parents are telling you you'll disgrace the family if you don't go into medicine, right? Well set them straight. Just because you came from a particular geographic region, or your upper class family members were doctors, does NOT mean you have to be a doctor.

You might get in but I think there are hints in your application that show your lack of enthusiasm. Particularly, you are a student with a high MCAT and poor BCPM grades. Any smart person can take the MCAT and get a high score, but slogging through the pre-reqs is what weeds out many people, especially those who don't really want to do medicine. That combined with your apparent lack of clinical experience means you look a little questionable to adcoms. It would be a mistake to assume your 34 will get you in automatically.
 
ps - I don't really want to go to med school.

:laugh: Wow...way to be a stereotype

However, I'm fairly sure you will get in, just apply broadly and don't mention that at your interviews 😳
 
I see a lack of hospital volunteer work.
If you can't spare a few hours a week of your time volunteering on a consistent basis, it'll really hurt you come time for applications.

3.41 overall GPA is workable, but your 3.00 science GPA will not make it past some screens. Apply very broadly and you should have a decent shot, but apply to postbacs as well, just in case you have to reapply. If MD isn't important, your scores are competitive at DO schools.
 
Well....if you need people on SDN to tell you how special you are .... you clearly have some pretty deep issues that probably cannot be resolved here. Hope that helps =D
 
just got mcat score back 36 P. gpa is 3.80 but expecting this to go down a little bit. almost no extracirriculars (besides observing surgeries and shadowing doctors, volunteering at hospital, and attending a few local AMSA meetings). im not looking to get into top schools but am applying to just schools in IL. any suggestions appreciated since im applying this year.
 
How is this thread different from all the other "look at me and my good GPA/MCAT" threads?

Apply broadly and take a breather.
 
Yeah...I don't know what you're so stressed about. Both your MCAT and GPA are probably good enough to get you a fair amount of interviews. Especially if you're not looking to apply to top 20's. Congrats on the MCAT score.
 
just got mcat score back 36 P. gpa is 3.80 but expecting this to go down a little bit. almost no extracirriculars (besides observing surgeries and shadowing doctors, volunteering at hospital, and attending a few local AMSA meetings). im not looking to get into top schools but am applying to just schools in IL. any suggestions appreciated since im applying this year.

Grades & scores alone are not enough. Depending on how much time you spent in the hospital volunteer effort (duration in calendar months is sometimes more impressive than hours per week), other activities (have you engaged in other volunteer efforts, held a job, been engaged in activities during the summer, led a group, done research?), and whether or not you have an interesting hook in your personal statement you may have a shot at a school in Illinois.

If you are not from Cook County or the collar counties, try SIU. You may have a shot at UIC and the mid-tier private schools, the top tier research-heavy schools may shun you if you haven't much on the application other than great grades & scores.
 
just got mcat score back 36 P. gpa is 3.80 but expecting this to go down a little bit. almost no extracirriculars (besides observing surgeries and shadowing doctors, volunteering at hospital, and attending a few local AMSA meetings). im not looking to get into top schools but am applying to just schools in IL. any suggestions appreciated since im applying this year.


You have to have some extracurriculars that you're not thinking about. Did you play intramurals? In a frat/sorority? Ever go to a greek philanthropy (concert, etc.) and just hang out? You could add all these things.
 
Grades & scores alone are not enough. Depending on how much time you spent in the hospital volunteer effort (duration in calendar months is sometimes more impressive than hours per week), other activities (have you engaged in other volunteer efforts, held a job, been engaged in activities during the summer, led a group, done research?), and whether or not you have an interesting hook in your personal statement you may have a shot at a school in Illinois.

If you are not from Cook County or the collar counties, try SIU. You may have a shot at UIC and the mid-tier private schools, the top tier research-heavy schools may shun you if you haven't much on the application other than great grades & scores.

While this is good advice, most schools wont really care as long as you have something in the extra curricular box. As long as you don't come off as a psycho/sociopath at your interview you'll get in most places and even some if you do...gotta love how the process works. The sad fact is with a 3.8 and 36 you could have the depth of a teaspoon and be admitted.
 
While this is good advice, most schools wont really care as long as you have something in the extra curricular box. As long as you don't come off as a psycho/sociopath at your interview you'll get in most places and even some if you do...gotta love how the process works. The sad fact is with a 3.8 and 36 you could have the depth of a teaspoon and be admitted.

OP, the problem is, EVERYONE will have things listed in the activities box. Merely having something to put there is not enough. Things like how long you've been involved in an activity and the depth of your participation are important. Also, the vast majority of people who interview will not come off as psycho/sociopaths, yet schools will reject 1/2 or more of the people that they interview. Even people with high stats who aren't psycho can be rejected post-interview. Make sure you prepare for the interview and don't take it for granted.
 
Just made my app, can I get some comments ? Anything welcome.

AtG
 
A bit marginal, but your ECs and stuff may put you over the top at your state schools. you might want to apply to north texas as a safety, but it is unlikely that your GPA alone will keep you out. Other comments welcome, as I don't know TX schools, but from what I have heard they like GPA more than other states.
 
Hey guys,
I just made my MDapps profile

http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?myid=9941

What do you think?

The thing that I'm most concerned with right now is the LORs. I've been away from my university for over a year now, but have 2 good contacts willing to write me letters. I also have one science professor that I could get back in touch with for a letter. But my question stands as, do we really need 2 from science professors and one from non-science, or is this really more for the "traditional" applicant?
 
Ok, ok... now I have all the information I need to ask for a wee bit of advice:

Important Facts:
4th year engineering student
Canadian

Mcat: 36R (12PS 13VR 11BS)
GPA: Overall: 3.605 (Engineering... the GPA killer)
Required courses for med: 3.675
Extracurriculars:
- 3 Summers of research in chem engineering (no publications....)
- 4 months of 4 hours per week volunteering with rehabilitation fitness programs (very hands on).
- Assorted random volunteering.
- Currently an exchange student in Turkey
- 3 years of Sign Language classes
- First aid certification (weak... I know)

*As I see it, the biggest weakness with my application is a lack of direct clinical/hospital experience and a decent but not stellar GPA. Oh, and the other problem was an unfortunate crisis year 4 years ago when I withdrew from a couple biology classes for reasons that made sense at the time, not so much now.

Major Question: When I get back from my exchange, I plan to pick up a solid hospital volunteer position. Unfortunately, that will be in July. Should I apply to schools this summer, or wait for a year and get a lot of volunteering in so I'm a more solid applicant?
 
Ok, ok... now I have all the information I need to ask for a wee bit of advice:

Important Facts:
4th year engineering student
Canadian

Mcat: 36R (12PS 13VR 11BS)
GPA: Overall: 3.605 (Engineering... the GPA killer)
Required courses for med: 3.675
Extracurriculars:
- 3 Summers of research in chem engineering (no publications....)
- 4 months of 4 hours per week volunteering with rehabilitation fitness programs (very hands on).
- Assorted random volunteering.
- Currently an exchange student in Turkey
- 3 years of Sign Language classes
- First aid certification (weak... I know)

*As I see it, the biggest weakness with my application is a lack of direct clinical/hospital experience and a decent but not stellar GPA. Oh, and the other problem was an unfortunate crisis year 4 years ago when I withdrew from a couple biology classes for reasons that made sense at the time, not so much now.

Major Question: When I get back from my exchange, I plan to pick up a solid hospital volunteer position. Unfortunately, that will be in July. Should I apply to schools this summer, or wait for a year and get a lot of volunteering in so I'm a more solid applicant?
You can probably get in somewhere this year, so go for it. If you wait a year you will probably be in better shape, but I dont think with a 36 a little bit of clinical volunteering will make or break you.
 
Looking for some input...

I graduated from UCLA with a B.S. in Chemical Engineering with an overall gpa of 3.05.... totally sux, but my last 5 quarters were a 3.7 taking a double class load to finish my degree ahead of time so I could start a masters program

I have a 4.0 both quarters running taking extra classes above the required coarse load at the program.

Just took the MCATS (13PS/12/BS/10VR/S)


I have lab research, a 'real' job for a bit, and am planning on shadowing starting next week.

Do I have any shot at some lower level MD program?
 
Looking for some input...

I graduated from UCLA with a B.S. in Chemical Engineering with an overall gpa of 3.05.... totally sux, but my last 5 quarters were a 3.7 taking a double class load to finish my degree ahead of time so I could start a masters program

I have a 4.0 both quarters running taking extra classes above the required coarse load at the program.

Just took the MCATS (13PS/12/BS/10VR/S)


I have lab research, a 'real' job for a bit, and am planning on shadowing starting next week.

Do I have any shot at some lower level MD program?
What do you think your cumulative GPA will be when you apply?
 
What do you think your cumulative GPA will be when you apply?

I was under the impression that a Masters GPA GPA counted seperately? Is this what you meant? I'm applying in this upcoming cycle and should have another 4.0 under my belt
 
I was under the impression that a Masters GPA GPA counted seperately? Is this what you meant? I'm applying in this upcoming cycle and should have another 4.0 under my belt
O you are right it is. Well in your situation it is really hard to tell, not many ppl have a low gpa and a really high MCAT score, but I say its worth it to apply, just make sure to stress your Upward trend and hope one school overlooks your gpa.
 
Anyone know if age is a factor... I'll be 19 by the time I apply .... 20 by the time I hear decisions
 
My question is should I apply this year (Jr.) or wait a year to obtain some better clinical EC's. I am looking to apply to top 20 schools.

Stats
GPA: 3.95-3.99 (I'm not sure exactly, because my school has a weird system that counts A+'s as 4.3)
MCAT: 42R (14/14/14)

EC's:
Biology TA (2 terms)
Research: 1 year (1 second-to-last author pub. lol)
Shadowing ~50 hr
Volunteering (worthless experience): ~50 hr

I'm learning towards waiting a year right now. I feel like having a father in internal medicine has exposed me to how difficult a career in medicine can be, but I'm not sure I'll have an easy time proving that to adcoms based on my EC's.
 
Ok, ok... now I have all the information I need to ask for a wee bit of advice:

Important Facts:
4th year engineering student
Canadian

Mcat: 36R (12PS 13VR 11BS)
GPA: Overall: 3.605 (Engineering... the GPA killer)
Required courses for med: 3.675
Extracurriculars:
- 3 Summers of research in chem engineering (no publications....)
- 4 months of 4 hours per week volunteering with rehabilitation fitness programs (very hands on).
- Assorted random volunteering.
- Currently an exchange student in Turkey
- 3 years of Sign Language classes
- First aid certification (weak... I know)

*As I see it, the biggest weakness with my application is a lack of direct clinical/hospital experience and a decent but not stellar GPA. Oh, and the other problem was an unfortunate crisis year 4 years ago when I withdrew from a couple biology classes for reasons that made sense at the time, not so much now.

Major Question: When I get back from my exchange, I plan to pick up a solid hospital volunteer position. Unfortunately, that will be in July. Should I apply to schools this summer, or wait for a year and get a lot of volunteering in so I'm a more solid applicant?

Ogrenci,

Your stats are solid. There was an interesting post on this thread regarding Canadian applicants, you might read the advice to that person regarding citizenship selectivity.

I would say that you should make every effort to improve your clinical experience. Though you have solid numbers, your PS and LORs will not be compelling without any actual experience to back it up. To be a successful applicant, you have to show adcoms both ability and desire to be a doctor. Ability is done with the numbers. Desire is done by showing that you know what you are getting yourself into and why you are doing it. Most people do that with clinical ECs, and to tell the truth, lacking such experiences will be conspicuous.

You should be all right if your volunteering experience this summer is very substantial. Apply early (before your experience starts) so that it gets seen by the adcoms, but send an update LOR from someone in your volunteering setting as soon as you can. It will go a long way towards getting you past the secondary screening.

Good luck - it is more than possible.
 
First post here...

Just got the Jan MCAT score back, 31P - not excited by it, but I don't have to re-take so very thankful.

GPA: 3.88
Science: 3.81

EC: Take a look at the freshly made mdapps

State: NC

General question - where should I be looking to apply? I know the 4 instate schools, but past that I'm just starting to gather info. Been hovering around here reading posts for sometime and appreciate any insight.

Thanks!
 
First post here...

Just got the Jan MCAT score back, 31P - not excited by it, but I don't have to re-take so very thankful.

GPA: 3.88
Science: 3.81

EC: Take a look at the freshly made mdapps

State: NC

General question - where should I be looking to apply? I know the 4 instate schools, but past that I'm just starting to gather info. Been hovering around here reading posts for sometime and appreciate any insight.

Thanks!

CarolinaBlue,

Great numbers. In fact, some of the other readers here might resent you, so don't listen to them if you get any posts to that effect.

Just looked over your mdapps. Don't list your high school honors, but keep your Eagle Scout listing. Your GPA is high enough to get on the Dean's List - where is that on your profile? Much like the previous poster, your numbers are fine (actually, more than fine) but you are very weak on the EC side. You just haven't put the time into clinical experiences. Work on that and you should be set.

With regards to your list of schools, with those numbers, the sky's the limit. Ok, maybe not so much with the MCAT, but adcoms have been really lenient with MCAT recently in favor of high GPA. Your 31 is about average for matriculants, but your GPA from UNC is good enough to get you an interview at lots of other places. Where you apply depends on you - your "fit" for the school, what you are looking for in terms of research/clinical/academic stuff, geography, etc.

Anyway. I'd say good luck, but it doesn't look like you'll need it from me. Be interesting at your interviews and you'll do just fine.
 
Crepes,

Thanks for the advice.

Tried to clarify my clinical experience a little better on the mdapps. I gave it its own section rather than including it in EC's.

Trying to get used to SDN and mdapps, its still all very new.

Thanks again
 
My situation is kind of odd, I don't know if I should ask here or the non-trad forum.

GPA: 3.35
BCMP: 3.6
MCAT: 34P

I have a solid amount of EC's so I'm not too worried about them.

My main question is that it took me 7 years to finally be ready to graduate this coming fall. I ended up getting 3 degrees (Bio, Chem and Poli Sci) but I worry how much will that hurt me during the application process? I had 2 tough years in Florida not really caring about school and I pulled a ton of C's which has killed my GPA, but they were all in classes that don't even apply to my majors today - they are all sitting in my electives category weighing down my GPA. I moved to Missouri and kicked myself into gear which helped me bring my GPA close to a 3.4 but I don't think it'll exceed that. Do I have any chance at any kind of schools or will my past mistakes be too much to overcome?
 
I am losing hope...

I planned on entering the class for 2008 but due to a family emergency I wasn't able to apply until now. Since June of last year I haven't been able to volunteer because I have been taking care of my disabled grandmother who suffered a stroke and a seizure. I took the time off from volunteering and working to take a CNA class (now I am certified) to better my knowledge in helping my grandmother. Not to mention that I am the oldest of six siblings so I am always busy since my parents are both working full-time.

Volunteer:
1. After-school tutor for my elementary school (3 years)
2. Volunteered in Pediatric department, information desk, and ER department at a local hospital (2 years)
3. Girl's Basketball Assistant basketball coach for my elementary school (1 year)
4. Volunteered at Fleetwing Department at a local hospital (~ 2 years)
5. Volunteered as a Research Lab Assistant at a local hospital (~3 months)
- had to stop early because my grandmother needed me more than anything
6. Teaching intern at my college (1 semester)

Academics:
Bachelor of Arts major in Biology and a minor in Sociology
GPA 3.55
Science GPA 3.4

Planning to take my MCAT in May hoping to score 30+ (cross fingers)

Are my stats good enought for an allopathic school? I hope so because after being with my grandmother I've learned the value of patience, attentiveness, and communication. She made me want to become a doctor. I love her for helping me make a life long career.
 
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