What are my chances of getting into a pa school with a low gpa?

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penguin111

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If my sgpa is 3.1 and cgpa is 3.2. Extreme upward trend in last 2 years. About 1000 hours of research, 4000-5000 hours of PCE and 200 hours of shadowing. I was involved in 6 clubs at my uni. These are my results for the PA-CAT:

AP- 521

Bio- 539

Chem- 520

Comp. 523

What are my chances of getting into at least one PA school?

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Odds are better than zero, and on the low end, but it can be done. The key is getting past the filters schools have, and the big filter is GPA. Ten years ago, the filter was generally expected to be around 3.0 for science and core GPA. Schools that were willing to give feedback to me on that subject told me that. Others were more cryptic, but the results of others that had applied and got interviews seemed to support that. Many schools will mention minimum requirements, or else publish a statistical profile of the typical accepted student. That’s are usually very accurate. Yes, there are outliers, but nobody should be comforted by the thought of getting in as an outlier when there are 10 applicants for each seat (10 applicants if you are lucky, and even more if you aren’t lucky).

So think about this… if an average accepted student in a class of 60 has a gpa of 3.6 in core and science, then it’s more likely that many more accepted students will actually have >3.6 vs much less than 3.2 due to the fact that quality grades will not be punished, but instead will be rewarded as standouts. That leaves a very small portion of seats for folks with poor GPAs and incredible upward trends, demonstration of overcoming adversity, extracurriculars, service, HCE, etc. The lower into the GPA pool that a program dips into, the more risk they are taking. Imagine what scenario they would take an applicant of 2.8 GPA. What would compel them to take someone with a 3.0? Again, the vast majority of applicants will fall between 4.0 and 3.3 since the national average GPA of a matriculated seat is like 3.65. The math on this pans out if you average 4.0 and 3.3. My guess is that 3.3 is the silent cutoff to have them even look at an application to read someone’s essay, read their letters of recommendation, catch their hours of HCE/service/shadowing, or see their upward trend. They will let just about anyone send them application fees, and secondary application fees. Fees from applicants at a single program can easily pay for at least a couple administrative assistants for a year, or one professor and benefits. One year I calculated one of my top choice programs as being on track to collect close to a couple hundred thousand from application fees alone. So they have no interest in discouraging an applicant by putting it out there that they have a high unofficial cutoff.

Another thought exercise: 100 seat program. 1100 applicants. 10% are folks who are applying who have no business even bothering, but disregarded the schools published minimum requirements. 10% would be high, but we are being generous with that. The rest of the applicants are wise enough to know that sub 3.0 GPAs have no hope, so they all have >3.0 GPA. Distribute the rest of the grades out. You are looking at literally hundreds of applicants who have >3.5 GPAs who worked hard for years to get that GPA and were consistent. Everything a school is looking for as far as non traditional background, disadvantaged but successful student, overcoming adversity, committed to social justice…. all while still having great GPA. If folks are smart enough to get >3.5 GPA, they are smart enough to put together a great application packet. Those aren’t students who waste their energy on idle quests, they are there to succeed at getting into school, just like they succeeded in undergrad. They will pick from the 800 kids above the 3.1. Programs won’t look at the wings of the bell curve equally. The 4.0 student will get more attention than the 3.9 ones, or the 3.8, and so on. What incentive would a program have to ignore a kid with a 3.9 in favor of one with a 3.1?
 
Odds are better than zero, and on the low end, but it can be done. The key is getting past the filters schools have, and the big filter is GPA. Ten years ago, the filter was generally expected to be around 3.0 for science and core GPA. Schools that were willing to give feedback to me on that subject told me that. Others were more cryptic, but the results of others that had applied and got interviews seemed to support that. Many schools will mention minimum requirements, or else publish a statistical profile of the typical accepted student. That’s are usually very accurate. Yes, there are outliers, but nobody should be comforted by the thought of getting in as an outlier when there are 10 applicants for each seat (10 applicants if you are lucky, and even more if you aren’t lucky).

So think about this… if an average accepted student in a class of 60 has a gpa of 3.6 in core and science, then it’s more likely that many more accepted students will actually have >3.6 vs much less than 3.2 due to the fact that quality grades will not be punished, but instead will be rewarded as standouts. That leaves a very small portion of seats for folks with poor GPAs and incredible upward trends, demonstration of overcoming adversity, extracurriculars, service, HCE, etc. The lower into the GPA pool that a program dips into, the more risk they are taking. Imagine what scenario they would take an applicant of 2.8 GPA. What would compel them to take someone with a 3.0? Again, the vast majority of applicants will fall between 4.0 and 3.3 since the national average GPA of a matriculated seat is like 3.65. The math on this pans out if you average 4.0 and 3.3. My guess is that 3.3 is the silent cutoff to have them even look at an application to read someone’s essay, read their letters of recommendation, catch their hours of HCE/service/shadowing, or see their upward trend. They will let just about anyone send them application fees, and secondary application fees. Fees from applicants at a single program can easily pay for at least a couple administrative assistants for a year, or one professor and benefits. One year I calculated one of my top choice programs as being on track to collect close to a couple hundred thousand from application fees alone. So they have no interest in discouraging an applicant by putting it out there that they have a high unofficial cutoff.

Another thought exercise: 100 seat program. 1100 applicants. 10% are folks who are applying who have no business even bothering, but disregarded the schools published minimum requirements. 10% would be high, but we are being generous with that. The rest of the applicants are wise enough to know that sub 3.0 GPAs have no hope, so they all have >3.0 GPA. Distribute the rest of the grades out. You are looking at literally hundreds of applicants who have >3.5 GPAs who worked hard for years to get that GPA and were consistent. Everything a school is looking for as far as non traditional background, disadvantaged but successful student, overcoming adversity, committed to social justice…. all while still having great GPA. If folks are smart enough to get >3.5 GPA, they are smart enough to put together a great application packet. Those aren’t students who waste their energy on idle quests, they are there to succeed at getting into school, just like they succeeded in undergrad. They will pick from the 800 kids above the 3.1. Programs won’t look at the wings of the bell curve equally. The 4.0 student will get more attention than the 3.9 ones, or the 3.8, and so on. What incentive would a program have to ignore a kid with a 3.9 in favor of one with a 3.1?
Honestly, something doesn't seem right here. This person and other folks had similar stats to me but you suggest that they should give it a shot and told me that I am basically wasting my time with a chance less than 1%. I have nothing against these people but you seem to give them a chance but not me. What makes you think that I don't have what it takes to succeed in this field? Why? What is your issue with me??
 
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Honestly, something doesn't seem right here. This person and other folks had similar stats to me but you suggest that they should give it a shot and told me that I am basically wasting my time with a chance less than 1%. I have nothing against these people but you seem to give them a chance but not me. What makes you think that I don't have what it takes to succeed in this field? Why? What is your issue with me??
You have a 2.6 and zero ECs. You’re not in the same league as the OP. What are you talking about?
 
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You have a 2.6 and zero ECs. You’re not in the same league as the OP. What are you talking about?
I know but I am talking about the future. I am not getting in exactly now lol. I am talking about the years later on to get accepted into PA school. I am talking about the chances to improve my application. I am not trying to get in now lol. What happens if I put in the work to try to get in for the next few years? What's my chances??
 
I know but I am talking about the future. I am not getting in exactly now lol. I am talking about the years later on to get accepted into PA school. I am talking about the chances to improve my application. I am not trying to get in now lol. What happens if I put in the work to try to get in for the next few years? What's my chances??
In the other thread, it was made very clear you’d have to basically walk on water to cobble together an app as strong as the OP in this thread. So if by the end of your UG degree you are able to maintain a perfect gpa while accumulating 2.5-3 years worth of full time EC activity, then your chances will be as good as OPs are now.

This has been spelled out by multiple posters in your thread dedicated to this topic.
 
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In the other thread, it was made very clear you’d have to basically walk on water to cobble together an app as strong as the OP in this thread. So if by the end of your UG degree you are able to maintain a perfect gpa while accumulating 2.5-3 years worth of full time EC activity, then your chances will be as good as OPs are now.

This has been spelled out by multiple posters in your thread dedicated to this topic.
how likely is it that I can succeed??
 
how likely is it that I can succeed??
Again, that depends on how much you want it. Your drive and ability are the rate limiting step in that equation.

I personally doubt you’ll be able to maintain that level of intensity. You’re probably at the point in your degree where you can’t really spread out the rough classes by filling out your semester with an easy class here and there. It’s mostly all hard classes likely going forward. You also need the ECs. All I have to go by is your current academic standing, which doesn’t suggest you have the bandwidth for this.

But it’s up to you to prove me wrong. You have more control over your future than some guy on the internet.
 
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Again, that depends on how much you want it. Your drive and ability are the rate limiting step in that equation.

I personally doubt you’ll be able to maintain that level of intensity. You’re probably at the point in your degree where you can’t really spread out the rough classes by filling out your semester with an easy class here and there. It’s mostly all hard classes likely going forward. You also need the ECs. All I have to go by is your current academic standing, which doesn’t suggest you have the bandwidth for this.

But it’s up to you to prove me wrong. You have more control over your future than some guy on the internet.
What other decent careers in the healthfield that is not PA school? Any decent and has good job stability?? What do you mean by EC?? Can't I just increase my overall GPA after I graduate college as well??
 
What other decent careers in the healthfield that is not PA school? Any decent and has good job stability?? What do you mean by EC?? Can't I just increase my overall GPA after I graduate college as well??
I’ll defer to other posters opinion at this time. This has been explained as nauseam at this point. Consider speaking to your school advisor.
 
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I’ll defer to other posters opinion at this time. This has been explained as nauseam at this point. Consider speaking to your school advisor.
my school advisors suck extremely bad. Again, what other careers in the healthfield can I do?
 
What other decent careers in the healthfield that is not PA school? Any decent and has good job stability?? What do you mean by EC?? Can't I just increase my overall GPA after I graduate college as well??
ECs means shadowing, volunteering, clinical experience, research etc. According to a pa student I just recently talked to, doing a post-bacc to increase your gpa is kinda a waste of time, its better to spend that time working in the hospital to increase your PCE and also study for the PA-CAT. If you have many ECs and extremely high hours of PCE, that could possibly make up for your low gpa. Most applicants have 1000+ of PCE. There are hundreds of other healthcare options like nursing, pharmacy, optometry etc. You can look them up too. Maybe try to shadow multiple different health professionals to see what you're interested in.
 
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“Better than zero” odds don’t imply an endorsement, particularly when you read… the… rest… of….what…. I…. wrote…. over…. the… course ….of …. three…. rather… long…. paragraphs. At best, I presented a cautionary tale for the OP that painted a daunting picture. I have no “issue with you” and thought you were the OP at first, and didn’t even recognize your screen name when I started replying. What I did catch halfway into my response was your tone, which cued me in that it wasn’t the OP complaining at me.

I never told you in particular that anything was impossible for you. Instead, it was you that took issue with the things that I suggested you would need to do to make the cut, and you deduced from that that you faded an impossible task, because you were unwilling to do those things.

In any event, you’d be well served to actually read what people are saying. Hoov-man came to the same conclusion as I did, it seems, and I sense that we are both shaking our heads wondering what is up with all the good info that is not sinking in for you.
 
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ECs means shadowing, volunteering, clinical experience, research etc. According to a pa student I just recently talked to, doing a post-bacc to increase your gpa is kinda a waste of time, its better to spend that time working in the hospital to increase your PCE and also study for the PA-CAT. If you have many ECs and extremely high hours of PCE, that could possibly make up for your low gpa. Most applicants have 1000+ of PCE. There are hundreds of other healthcare options like nursing, pharmacy, optometry etc. You can look them up too. Maybe try to shadow multiple different health professionals to see what you're interested in.

PCE, AKA HCE is a route the is paying off less over time for PA school. They really are looking at grades, even among the folks with good HCE.

My experience over 10 years ago was that breaking the 3.0 barrier for both SGPA and CGPA was what it took to have a program actually consider your application and start reading things like the essay, and reference letters. Lower than that, it got round filed. Several programs back then told me that personally. Several more wouldn’t answer the question, which suggested to me that they also had similar standards, but wanted people to pay to apply and send in secondary apps with checks. My gut tells me that in 10 years, programs will be more picky, and that HCE is becoming de emphasized.

A post bac has a purpose…. It’s there when you need to show you have academic acumen when your transcripts show you struggled. If you lack grades, then you need to show them grades. HCE will not pull your butt out of the fire I’m that case.
 
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PCE, AKA HCE is a route the is paying off less over time for PA school. They really are looking at grades, even among the folks with good HCE.

My experience over 10 years ago was that breaking the 3.0 barrier for both SGPA and CGPA was what it took to have a program actually consider your application and start reading things like the essay, and reference letters. Lower than that, it got round filed. Several programs back then told me that personally. Several more wouldn’t answer the question, which suggested to me that they also had similar standards, but wanted people to pay to apply and send in secondary apps with checks. My gut tells me that in 10 years, programs will be more picky, and that HCE is becoming de emphasized.

A post bac has a purpose…. It’s there when you need to show you have academic acumen when your transcripts show you struggled. If you lack grades, then you need to show them grades. HCE will not pull your butt out of the fire I’m that case.
That’s the way it seemed even 5 years ago. It was still valued if you had a job with some real responsibilities like a nurse. But no one really cared too much about ER tech/scribe type jobs. Now it seems even more grade-centric. Which is sad since PA was originally meant to be a second career.
 
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The issue at play lay in the PA programs. I had a program administrator tell me this personally: programs have an easier time training great students. That’s what it all comes down to. Good students are more likely to handle all the information they have thrown at them. They aren’t likely to need much remediation. They are less likely to drop out. They are less likely to fail out. They are less likely to slow the class down. They are less likely to cause problems. PA programs cover a lot of ground, but they also have to leave out a lot of things, and a good student doesn’t need all the dots connected for the information to click.

Every student that drops or fails out represents the loss of $50k to $100k. Students that have great HCE have options to make close to PA wages if they bail. Schools are finding that they like applicants that realize it’s PA school or bust, and that keeps them around. The change in looking towards good students is mostly a matter of retention and ease for the PA program, and that’s why their recruiting philosophy is going to continue to spread.

What this means for the PA industry is that younger students are entering the pipeline, more programs are opening to churn them out, and younger PAs mean declining wages. Folks with experience have expectations for a return on their investment. A lot of new PAs are taking jobs with terms that they shouldn’t agree to. My NP friends can wait it out for a good deal, and know a bad deal when they see it. I had a few friends who graduated during the height of COVID, when jobs dried up. So they waited it out while continuing to work as nurses, racking up overtime, and having employers throw raises at them. The kids who were graduating as PAs had to deal with no significant cash flow, and took anything that they could, even for terrible pay.
 
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