What are my chances of getting into General Surgery?

[Nutoamerica]

Hey,
I am a 3rd year DO student trying to get into a general surgery residency. My stats are:

USMLE 217
COMLEX 522
Class Rank: Bottom 3rd
Research: None medically related, have one publication from Undergrad.
Doing average of SHELF.

Please give me some realistic advice and if possible point me a path to light.

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[SomeDoc]

http://www.nrmp.org/data/matchoutcomes2006.pdf

That data should help, pg 61.

 

[Nutoamerica]

Thank you so much!

 

[SomeDoc]

No prob.

 

[ikemae]

Hey,
I am a 3rd year DO student trying to get into a general surgery residency. My stats are:

USMLE 217
COMLEX 522
Class Rank: Bottom 3rd
Research: None medically related, have one publication from Undergrad.
Doing average of SHELF.

Please give me some realistic advice and if possible point me a path to light.

Depends. Are you looking for ACGME or AOA? Based solely on the information you've provided, I would gear yourself for the AOA match. Find a strong program, Doctor's Hospital in Columbus, OH and the one in Iowa come to mind, and rotate there, bust your behind and make sure they know from day one that you want to be there. I would say you could do the same at some of the ACGME programs but the fact is your USMLE will probably keep you out of "most" places. And of course scoring strong letters and using any connections you have helps too.

 

[Krazykritter]

Nut,

I just recently matched into an AOA program, but did apply & interview at both AOA & ACGME sites. Honestly, you have an uphill battle. My scores were very similar to yours except I do have a significant amount of research in my application that was looked very favorably upon during my interviews. At this point though, you may be a little late in trying to find meaningful research to buff you application.

I would also recommend making sure you get your 3 letters from SURGEONS early so that your application can be available as soon as your Dean's letter comes out (which happens to be earlier than at allopathic schools although some programs block this portion until Nov.1).

Rotating at programs is almost a must for us as DO's as is applying very widely for ACGME programs. I wanted to match in the Midwest (excluding Ohio & Michigan) & that leaves a person with very few programs to apply to especially since many of the Midwest programs very rarely or never interview DO's & I would be happy to share more about that by PM if necessary. AOA programs put a ton of weight in how well you do during your rotations.

I would highly recommend the AOA programs ikemae mentioned above as I have heard good things about one of them & matched at the other

Basically...Apply early, broadly, & work your butt off on your away rotations. Hope some of this helps.

 

[doctorperez]

Hi Krazykritter - or anyone else:


How many elective rotations do you recommend? Thanks

 

[Nutoamerica]

Thanks ikemae and Krazykritter for your advices! If you gus don't mind, can you tell me how many programs you applied to and how many interviews you got?
Ans as far as the letters of recommendations, who do I ask for those?

 

[Krazykritter]

As I said before, I applied only in the Midwest & choose 19 programs (combined AOA & ACGME). If you read on this site further you will find that most people apply to a great deal more than that & during my interviews, I would say that the average number of interviews I heard most people doing was probably about 12-15. This number of interviews is supported by the Match data provided in the link above seeing that the average ROL of U.S. seniors was roughly 10.

All that being said...I did significantly fewer interviews than I probably should have. For me it was a combination of factors that lead to going to fewer interviews. First, I also applied AOA which is known for being much transparent in their selection process. Second, some of my applications at programs I wasn't very excited about were completed very late due to LOR issues (I got stiffed by someone who first offered to write me a letter & then promised it would be glowing). Next, I applied to a few programs I knew that my numbers may keep me out of getting an interview, but I hoped that they would average my USMLE Step I & II scores to get me above the Step I cutoff since I took the test very early with that in mind.

As for LOR's...many ACGME programs specify that you need at least 3 LOR's from surgeons. AOA programs are less picky about this. The general consensus I heard is that LOR's should come from anyone that knows you well enough to write you a solid letter. If possible, this letter can come from someone well known in the field you are applying to. I have also heard that it is very important to waive your right to view these letters. There is a specific form for the LOR cover sheet that you will get from the ERAS site that has this option. These letters apparently carry more weight b/c a doc you worked w/ is going to be more likely to give an honest opinion if they know you won't see the letter.

 

[Nutoamerica]

KrazyKritters,
have you had any interviews which you had not rotated at that place before?
SO far I can only spot one attending who I have been working with might write me a letter, but I still need 2 others...are there any other opportunities I can get more LORs?

 

[Krazykritter]

Sure I had interviews at places I didn't rotate. You simply cannot afford, time or money-wise, to rotate everywhere you are going to have to apply to have a realistic chance at matching.

I guess my advice for getting letters is that you need to set up elective surgery rotations some time (ideal would probably be late during your third year or very early in fourth year) so that you can work with other surgeons. Let them know early you are interested in them writing you a letter. Also, if you have the opportunity to work closely with a program PD, those letters are also very valuable.

 

[ikemae]

I applied to 53 programs and was offered about 20 interviews and ended up going on 14 interviews (All ACGME). I received a mix of university -6,-7 year programs and straight 5-year community programs. Two out of the twenty offers were from programs where I rotated. As far as my letters of recommendation, I had my letter writers solidified by the end of the first month of fourth-year. My letters were from a pulmonologist/intensivist, a thoracic surgeon and the chairman/PD of one of the programs where I had rotated at the end of my third-year. I would definitely get two letters from surgeons and the other can be from someone in a field with some intensity (Intensive Care, EM >> Peds, IM). Oh and make sure to check out program websites like KrazyKritter said because some programs only want surgeons, some only want 2 letter while others want 4. I'm originally from the East Coast but had nothing tethering me there, so I applied broadly from New England to the Midwest and down south. I'm setting up my rank list now and I'll likely rank 12 programs. I guess we'll see in a few weeks how things will work out then I can really let you know how to go about the process!

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

SO far I can only spot one attending who I have been working with might write me a letter, but I still need 2 others...are there any other opportunities I can get more LORs?

That's what fourth year is for; and it's also why the LOR due date is later than the rest of the app.

Third year can be hard to gather up letters - you might not know what you want to do yet (like me), you're a little bit more clueless on the whole, and (at least at my school) your rotations are pretty short so you don't get that much face time with attendings.

 

[Tsutsugamushi]

Hi, i have a similar question as nutoamerica.

I'm a MS3 in a MD program, who has similar scores as nutoamerica; Step 1 220. Would anyone recommend taking time off/delaying graduation to do research in General surgery? Honestly, i really hate doing research, but if that is what it comes down to then i'll do it.

What do you think my chances are to getting matched into a program somewhere along the East or west Coast?

And what is the difference between an ACGME program and an AOA program?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Hi, i have a similar question as nutoamerica.

I'm a MS3 in a MD program, who has similar scores as nutoamerica; Step 1 220. Would anyone recommend taking time off/delaying graduation to do research in General surgery? Honestly, i really hate doing research, but if that is what it comes down to then i'll do it.

Since 220 is around the average I don't see how research will help, especially if you don't really enjoy it. After all 1 year of research is not likely to get you published before applications are due, so I don't see it significantly making a difference unless you were planning an academic career (which I think not given your dislike of research).

What do you think my chances are to getting matched into a program somewhere along the East or west Coast?

About as good as anyone else.

Sorry, but there really is no way of knowing.

And what is the difference between an ACGME program and an AOA program?

Thanks in advance.

ACGME = allopathic
AOA = osteopathic

You are not eligible for AOA residencies.

 

[VilleValo]

Providence Hospital in Southfield Michigan has a neurosurgery program for DO's. You'll need at least a 200 on your tests. Contact the NEUROSURG office, and not the general surgery office. The programs heads loathe eachother in general...Hope that helps!

Albany Medical Center in Albany, New York has had general surgery residents who were DOs, even DOs from CANADA! But there was one a few years back who was so famously terrible, I hope he didn't ruin it for the rest of you! Try there as well. Try all the programs in New York and New Jersey. Hope this helps and good luck!

And TSUTSU, a 220 is a solid score! No need to do extra research year! Just apply, but make sure you have a good Step 2 score to go on time with your application! Try essayedge dot com for personal statement review and editing. Well worth the money and soooo important!

 

[Nutoamerica]

thank you all!
um, Villevalo, just a quick question about neurosurgery,
I can apply directly into that program as I complete medical school?

 

[Nutoamerica]

Good luck ikemae on your match!
You got 20 interviews from ACGME programs, so your stats are a lot higher than mine?

I talked to my surgery department chair today, and he pretty much made me lost all my confidence...

 

[Krazykritter]

Good luck ikemae on your match!
You got 20 interviews from ACGME programs, so your stats are a lot higher than mine?

I talked to my surgery department chair today, and he pretty much made me lost all my confidence...

Sorry to hear about that.

You really need to consider what's important to you in a program & where your future career goals lie. There are plenty of community programs that may suit your goals. There are also a few strong AOA programs out there that you can & probably shoud consider. Again though, I would strongly recommend doing audition rotations at the places that are top on your list & letting them know early that you are very interested in their program. In my experience, these rotations are a great way to show that some people are much stronger applicants than their numbers show.

 

[Nutoamerica]

Thanks Krazykritter!
I think I am gonna apply and I am gonna take you guys' advice on rotating at those places suitable for me.
How do you think about massive application technique? And are there community programs I can get into in the ACGME? Given that I am definitely applying the strong AOA programs?
I am happy either way, as long as I get to do surgery for a very long time!

 

[njbmd]

Hi, i have a similar question as nutoamerica.

I'm a MS3 in a MD program, who has similar scores as nutoamerica; Step 1 220. Would anyone recommend taking time off/delaying graduation to do research in General surgery? Honestly, i really hate doing research, but if that is what it comes down to then i'll do it.

What do you think my chances are to getting matched into a program somewhere along the East or west Coast?

And what is the difference between an ACGME program and an AOA program?

Thanks in advance.

I agree with WS, you are about average for Gen Surg as far as Step I goes. Ace Step II, do a couple of audition rotations at programs that you would really love and do well. I wouldn't delay graduation for reseach but look at solid community programs and a couple of good university ones. With a strong performance in your audition rotation, some good program choosing, you should be fine. Just make sure that you have enough interviews to rank at least 10 programs minimally.

 

[LovelyRita]

I agree with much of the above sage advice.

I'm a 3rd year gensurg resident at a DO program. Competetion has increased in the last few years.

Strong applicants have the following qualities:

-express interest early by doing as many surgical rotations as possible during 3rd year and landing good evals and LOR's.

-staying ahead of the game, EVEN as a 3rd year, EVEN if you are new to the hospital, not waiting for the people above you to give you direction on every move you need to make, i.e., being proactive with the services, knowing AS MUCH as possible about ALL of the patients on the lists, answering pimp questions right at least 1/2 of the time.

-have pleasant personalities, know when to say "please", "thank you" and introducing yourself

-don't complain. About anything. Except in the appropriate venue to the appropriate people.

-pass their board exams, the higher the score, the better you stand out. Folks who fail boards and still get into residency (yes, this does happen) have the attention of the higher-ups that they are prone to failure and may be less trustworthy, HOWEVER, sometimes folks rebound huge from poor performance on a test or a school year and end up as shining stars.

It's multifaceted. Doing all of the above will get you into A surgical residency, most likely. Whether you end up at your #1 choice is up in the air. It's quite nervewracking, but the harder you work now, the easier things are for you in the future.

 

[WSP]

I'm a third year medical student and here are my scores/credentials.

step I - 190/77 (circumstantial)
average grades
1 research paper in neurosurgery
1 presented abstract and won an award
american medical school

will i match? what do i need on step2? i have 2 aways lined up.

 

[SocialistMD]

step I - 190/77 (circumstantial)

For your own good, and to increase your chances of matching, please never repeat what you've done above. Don't make excuses; everyone could always do better on an exam if they lived in a vacuum, but no one does. This isn't me being critical, this is me offering advice.

 

[Dr. Dukes]

For your own good, and to increase your chances of matching, please never repeat what you've done above. Don't make excuses; everyone could always do better on an exam if they lived in a vacuum, but no one does. This isn't me being critical, this is me offering advice.

I don't think this is necessarily true.
I took the MCAT with a bunch of my friends during the summer between Junior and Senior year in undergrad, including a classmate whose house had been flattened by a hurricane they day before (she decided not to postpone the MCAT because this was back when it was taken on paper and only givein in April and August).
She got creamed by the exam, but explained why in her med school application and got into a school where the average MCAT is 10 points higher than the score she got.

My point is this. If your score is circumstantial for a "good" reason then report it, if its circumstantial because the testing center was too hot/cold/dark/light (a stupid trivial reason) just eat the score, destroy step II, and maybe do a year of research.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I don't think this is necessarily true.
I took the MCAT with a bunch of my friends during the summer between Junior and Senior year in undergrad, including a classmate whose house had been flattened by a hurricane they day before (she decided not to postpone the MCAT because this was back when it was taken on paper and only givein in April and August).
She got creamed by the exam, but explained why in her med school application and got into a school where the average MCAT is 10 points higher than the score she got.

My point is this. If your score is circumstantial for a "good" reason then report it, if its circumstantial because the testing center was too hot/cold/dark/light (a stupid trivial reason) just eat the score, destroy step II, and maybe do a year of research.

I agree with SocialistMD.

There is a HUGE difference between medical schools evaluating your scores and surgeons. Surgeons (and many other residency faculty regardless of specialty) will see almost any excuse as just that...an excuse. The poster's score of 190 is MORE than 1 SD below the mean.

And even if he has good circumstances, many faculty will still say, "how can we trust that he will do well on the ABSITE and boards if he can't keep it together for Step 1?" They might not dismiss his application because of the score and/or circumstances under which it was achieved, but it will cause them to give pause and perhaps rank lower if it seen as a weak excuse.

This sounds crass, but unless his mother died the day before, I think most faculty will not accept "circumstances" as being a legit reason.

 

[SocialistMD]

This sounds crass, but unless his mother died the day before, I think most faculty will not accept "circumstances" as being a legit reason.

Exactly. And one could argue that if that were the case, the OP should have rescheduled the exam and that not doing so shows poor judgment on his/her part (knowing it would effect his/her performance on something this important and opting to go ahead anyway). The point is, don't claim "circumstances" and don't offer up an explanation unless asked for one, as it will be seen as an excuse.

 

[Gr8Hands]

I agree with those above. Excuses are like *****holes, everybody has one. Wont be looked highly on by the surgical types. Make up for your shortcomings on Step I by rocking Step II, best score you can. Strenghthen your app. No explanations unless asked.

 

[ahassan]

hi, i'm a US citizen IMG grad. I graduated last year and and just recently have given step1 in which i scored 225/94, i still have to give step 2 in june. I don't have any US clinicial experience nor have I done any electives. I however have done a 3 month internship rotation in surgery in a hospital outside the US and have 2 LORS from US qualified surgeons. I'm planning to do observership and research in the coming months and hope to match next year. If anyone can offer me any advice or tell me my chances of matching in a surgical residency, i'll be highly greatful. thnkx

 

[Winged Scapula]

hi, i'm a US citizen IMG grad. I graduated last year and and just recently have given step1 in which i scored 225/94, i still have to give step 2 in june. I don't have any US clinicial experience nor have I done any electives. I however have done a 3 month internship rotation in surgery in a hospital outside the US and have 2 LORS from US qualified surgeons. I'm planning to do observership and research in the coming months and hope to match next year. If anyone can offer me any advice or tell me my chances of matching in a surgical residency, i'll be highly greatful. thnkx

If you'll read this: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=500004 you'll see that we don't generally answer the unanswerable, ie, WAMC threads.

No one can tell you what your chances are. You do have some strikes against you:

1) non-native English speaker
2) out of school for more than a year before applying
3) average USMLE Step 1
4) no US clinical experience (some programs require it)
5) no US letters (I'm not sure your letters from "US qualified surgeons" count if they are not US faculty and you didn't do US rotations with them)
6) no ECFMG certificate (some programs require it)

However, even despite the above, would you not try to match, even if we told you it would be difficult? All you can do is to research the programs, see which ones have accepted others with your stats and apply widely.

 

[Skelfie]

I talked to my surgery department chair today, and he pretty much made me lost all my confidence...

Bumping this thread because I'm waiting for my surgery Shelf score (and Surgery clerkship grade) to come out and feeling rather apprehensive... I talked to my surgery department chair about my burgeoning desire to be a surgeon and he said, "Don't worry, just Honor the Shelf and Honor the clerkship!"

Sure, that sounds easy. But then I took the surgery Shelf, and I still don't know what hit me!! I studied my butt of for that thing -- read all the recommended books, did the UWorld questions twice, went over my flashcards a million times (not literally, but still!).

The sad thing is, I got all these positive vibes from the people on my various surgery teams (i.e., that they would recommend me for honors). And I had a fabulous time on my surgery rotations (admittedly, I am a pretty happy person in general, but this was like a whole different level of happy that I hadn't even imagined could exist!) I was feeling that I'd finally found my place in the world -- surgery, hooray! Everything was awesome.

But then, the Shelf. Ouch.

Oh well, enough pity partying! Sorry for the venting.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Bumping this thread because I'm waiting for my surgery Shelf score (and Surgery clerkship grade) to come out and feeling rather apprehensive... I talked to my surgery department chair about my burgeoning desire to be a surgeon and he said, "Don't worry, just Honor the Shelf and Honor the clerkship!"

Sure, that sounds easy. But then I took the surgery Shelf, and I still don't know what hit me!! I studied my butt of for that thing -- read all the recommended books, did the UWorld questions twice, went over my flashcards a million times (not literally, but still!).

The sad thing is, I got all these positive vibes from the people on my various surgery teams (i.e., that they would recommend me for honors). And I had a fabulous time on my surgery rotations (admittedly, I am a pretty happy person in general, but this was like a whole different level of happy that I hadn't even imagined could exist!) I was feeling that I'd finally found my place in the world -- surgery, hooray! Everything was awesome.

But then, the Shelf. Ouch.

Oh well, enough pity partying! Sorry for the venting.

1) I'm guessing this was your first shelf? Don't worry - everyone feels this way after their first one (and a lot of people after their second, third, fourth)

2) How much does the shelf count? For a lot of places it is only 15 or20%?

3) Plenty of people have managed to match surgery without an honors in the clerkship. It is nice to have honors but I wouldn't give up on the field with a high pass.

 

[JackADeli]

Bumping this thread because I'm waiting for my surgery Shelf score (and Surgery clerkship grade) to come out and feeling rather apprehensive... I talked to my surgery department chair about my burgeoning desire to be a surgeon and he said, "Don't worry, just Honor the Shelf and Honor the clerkship!"...

Oh well, enough pity partying! Sorry for the venting.

You have basically bumped the thread to whine in public that you didn't do so well on the shelf....Why.... what's your point.... have you not read this thread... Could you not create or find a thread about/more appropriate to whining

If you'll read this: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=500004 you'll see that we don't generally answer the unanswerable, ie, WAMC threads.

No one can tell you what your chances are....

....All you can do is to research the programs, see which ones have accepted others with your stats and apply widely.

 

[jp031425]

Hi,

I have a similar question as the one that started the thread. Im an IMG currently finishing my PhD in Biomedical Sciencie (renal phys), class rank: 4/180, 2 month rotation in the US, good grades (above 90) US LOR from the program Im applying to (Emory), want to apply for Gen Surg but got a subpar STEP 1 - 209, STEP 2 in one month, do I still have a chance of getting in? What can I do?

 

[Skelfie]

1) I'm guessing this was your first shelf? Don't worry - everyone feels this way after their first one (and a lot of people after their second, third, fourth)

Yes it was! I was totally blindsided... I'd expected it was going to be hard but, holy crow that thing was ridiculous!

2) How much does the shelf count? For a lot of places it is only 15 or20%?

Unfortunately, it's 40% of the grade for Surgery. It used to be lower, but they switched things around this year so there isn't much else going into the grade.

3) Plenty of people have managed to match surgery without an honors in the clerkship. It is nice to have honors but I wouldn't give up on the field with a high pass.

Thanks, southernIM!! That makes me feel a bit better!

You have basically bumped the thread to whine in public that you didn't do so well on the shelf....Why.... what's your point.... have you not read this thread... Could you not create or find a thread about/more appropriate to whining

Hee hee, JackADeli, your posts always make me laugh! Yeah, I guess I did pretty much bump the thread to whine. Sorry about that - I usually have more of a "c'est la vie" attitude after exams (even Step I!) because I always try my hardest and accept my limitations. But I just felt really sad last night when I started thinking about the Shelf. I did do a search and the nearest thing I could find that was close to my sentiment was that one sentence I quoted. So it seemed that this was the best thread in which to post.



P.S. For some reason I don't consider posting in an online forum to be "public" -- I guess I'm just odd in my thinking, but since no one posting here can see my face or my identity, I feel that it is "semi-private". Haha.

 

[JackADeli]

Hi,

I have a similar question as the one that started the thread. Im an IMG ...want to apply for Gen Surg ...do I still have a chance of getting in? What can I do?

Try reading through this thread, doing a search of the forums for the other already posted threads and follow the advice already posted...

If you'll read this: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=500004 you'll see that we don't generally answer the unanswerable, ie, WAMC threads.

No one can tell you what your chances are...

...All you can do is to research the programs, see which ones have accepted others with your stats and apply widely.

If you haven't figured it out, WAMC = What Are My Chances

 

[VincentAdultman]

If you'll read this: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=500004 you'll see that we don't generally answer the unanswerable, ie, WAMC threads.

No one can tell you what your chances are. You do have some strikes against you:

1) non-native English speaker
2) out of school for more than a year before applying
3) average USMLE Step 1
4) no US clinical experience (some programs require it)
5) no US letters (I'm not sure your letters from "US qualified surgeons" count if they are not US faculty and you didn't do US rotations with them)
6) no ECFMG certificate (some programs require it)

However, even despite the above, would you not try to match, even if we told you it would be difficult? All you can do is to research the programs, see which ones have accepted others with your stats and apply widely.

Hi,

I have a similar question as the one that started the thread. Im an IMG currently finishing my PhD in Biomedical Sciencie (renal phys), class rank: 4/180, 2 month rotation in the US, good grades (above 90) US LOR from the program Im applying to (Emory), want to apply for Gen Surg but got a subpar STEP 1 - 209, STEP 2 in one month, do I still have a chance of getting in? What can I do?

 

[etdo]

blah blah blah blah

 

[JackADeli]

bump for the search incompetent...

 

[GuzzyRon]

bump for the search incompetent...

lol

 

[bigtymer]

hey just along the general question here im an IMG i have 2 years in school left USMLE step 1 score 238/99 and I hope the same score for step 2 ck, i plan to do 2 electives for surgery and get a letter from hopkins or tufts, and am a Canadian and have a US green card but NO RESEARCH really any chances of me matching to a university surgery program?

 

[Buzz Me]

hey just along the general question here im an IMG i have 2 years in school left USMLE step 1 score 238/99 and I hope the same score for step 2 ck, i plan to do 2 electives for surgery and get a letter from hopkins or tufts, and am a Canadian and have a US green card but NO RESEARCH really any chances of me matching to a university surgery program?

You're going to apply anyway, right? Assuming you do at least one away rotation at Hopkins/Tufts and get a strong letter, aren't you going to apply regardless of your lack of research?

Or are you asking if you should get involved in some research now (and it'd better be really productive, really soon) before applying?

 

[bigtymer]

Im really asking is am I competitive for a university program? When I read online most IMGs applying for surgery have a background in their home country and so have the edge i guess in community programs at least but bascially what Im wondering is how competitive will I be to land a good university residency spot? Ive read the match trends and the scores needed but and regardless I will apply to over 200 programs but I was just looking for some feedback in regards to research as an IMG...how important is it and any recommendations thanks