What are new DVM graduates looking for in employment?

[DVMDream]

I feel like contract reading/negotiations should be a mandatory seminar for veterinary students. I've learned more in this thread than I have in the last 3 years of school (about jobs)

We had this. Came back early from winter break during third year for a course on this. We had to develop our own contracts and come up with negotiations. One person acted as the employer and the other as the employee. There were restrictions on how much the employer was able to provide and restrictions on what the employee was able to accept. You didn't know what the others' restrictions were so we had to negotiate out a contract. It was tedious and the instructor was very stringent and not by any means any "easy" grader, you really had to put work into it but we did learn quite a bit.

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[Minnerbelle]

I feel like contract reading/negotiations should be a mandatory seminar for veterinary students. I've learned more in this thread than I have in the last 3 years of school (about jobs)

There's also a lot that you just can't really grasp until you've actually lived it. My advice to anyone going out into general practice is to find a trusted mentor who has been out in general practice for a while and understands these things to look over your contract before you ever sign anything. All the better if that person has reviewed a lot of contracts. The internal medicine specialist who went from vet school to internship to residency to academia is NOT that person. There are sooo many little details that make a huge difference.

 

[Caia]

About to enter contract negotiations myself and I feel like I have no idea what I'm doing.

Is it a problem to have a mentor at the same practice review it, do you think? All of my mentors are at the same corporate practice....

 

[Minnerbelle]

About to enter contract negotiations myself and I feel like I have no idea what I'm doing.

Is it a problem to have a mentor at the same practice review it, do you think? All of my mentors are at the same corporate practice....

If this is a VCA, I wouldn't have the mentor at the same practice review it unless they know what the current contract situation is (most people do not). The contract options for new hires has changed recently, so they may not be of much help.

Also, newbies currently seem to be offered way more than associates were being offered previously, so you'll likely get not the best advice and may be told to short change yourself as well, compared to people who were hired in the past 9 years post-recession. Anyone hired beyond that unless they have seen a lot of recent contracts are probably out of the loop.

You can absolutely have people at the practice explain how their compensation package works (may not be what you are doing), and the pros/cons. Also about how busy they anticipate you being, and whether or not you should be worried about meeting your production goals. For some practices, newbies can be set up to fail. For others, they're set up better to succeed.

Can't speak for other corporate practices.

In general you want someone who has reviewed a lot of contracts and knows current trends.

 

[that redhead]

does illustrate to me what owners/managers value by paying in that way. It's a statement about what management values and what management promotes by their choice of compensation methods; they are saying "this is what I value in you and this is the only reason you're here. This is what's going to make you more important to the clinic".

Like I said, GP is a business first and foremost. You aren’t going to keep an associate on who doesn’t make any money for the practice but is simply a nice person to have around. The fact that I am valued for my ability to do my job well and bring income into the practice isn’t something that upsets me personally. There have been previous associates before me who were released not because they weren’t generating profit for the clinic but because they weren’t practicing good medicine or they didn’t gel with the staff. If value was solely derived from production, that sort of thing wouldn’t happen.

Again, it seems your experiences with pro-sal have been bad ones that have understandably soured you toward it. I just wanted to share my positive perspective for those who are reading the thread and trying to form their own opinions.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

Like I said, GP is a business first and foremost. You aren’t going to keep an associate on who doesn’t make any money for the practice but is simply a nice person to have around. The fact that I am valued for my ability to do my job well and bring income into the practice isn’t something that upsets me personally. There have been previous associates before me who were released not because they weren’t generating profit for the clinic but because they weren’t practicing good medicine or they didn’t gel with the staff. If value was solely derived from production, that sort of thing wouldn’t happen.

Again, it seems your experiences with pro-sal have been bad ones that have understandably soured you toward it. I just wanted to share my positive perspective for those who are reading the thread and trying to form their own opinions.

Of course it's a business and it has to make money, but if management thinks the most important thing an employee brings to the table is their individual ability to earn, they are running nothing more than a piece-work factory and their business model for providing medicine is flawed. They may say that's not the case, but their actions and choices say that (deep down, though they may not want to admit it), it is.

It's not just some unicorn-and-rainbow idea of mine, it's also the philosophy of a highly respected, profitable, and important (human) medical chain of clinics and hospitals who thinks that way..........The Mayo Clinic has decided the same. I want to work for a boss who believes that practicing medicine shouldn't be rewarded like a person working in a piece-work sweatshop.

Of course, if I don't help the clinic make money, I should be fired -- but based on the whole picture, not just my individual cases.

 

[that redhead]

I want to work for a boss who believes that practicing medicine shouldn't be rewarded like a person working in a piece-work sweatshop.

Frankly, I'm becoming more and more offended as this conversation goes on so I think it's time for me to step away.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

We had this. Came back early from winter break during third year for a course on this. We had to develop our own contracts and come up with negotiations. One person acted as the employer and the other as the employee. There were restrictions on how much the employer was able to provide and restrictions on what the employee was able to accept. You didn't know what the others' restrictions were so we had to negotiate out a contract. It was tedious and the instructor was very stringent and not by any means any "easy" grader, you really had to put work into it but we did learn quite a bit.

As far as I know, we don't here, or at least I've never heard of it happening. We have a few decent business electives, but I'm not sure if they actually cover contracts.

Maybe this is something I can try to organize..although Minnerbelle brings up a good point in that someone who has been in academia for the entirety of their career may not be the best person to help out. Maybe a local GP vet.

I want to work for a boss who believes that practicing medicine shouldn't be rewarded like a person working in a piece-work sweatshop.

You really don't seem to have any qualms about being blatantly disrespectful and insulting towards colleagues about this. I understand you may feel strongly, but you're just taking jabs at people's livelihoods at this point.

We get that you don't like pro-sal. Cool, so don't take a job with it. Doesn't mean you need to degrade others and call them sweatshop workers. Seriously, wtf?

 

[that redhead]

I’d be happy to read over a contract for any new grads looking for help. You can edit out names if you want

 

[DVMDream]

Human physicians are paid per case....in a way. It is a bit more complicated than that but in general they do make more the more patients they see. I've had this conversation with a few doctors.

Why should vet med be different? Why can't I practice good medicine and still want to be compensated for my time. Why is that an awful, horrible concept? I was being underpaid by about 10k/year on salary. I was staying until 9:30/10PM every night. I was working almost every weekend. Why is it wrong for me to say no... I'm done. I'm not going to get abused like this. Why is it wrong to want to be compensated for that case or cases that are keeping you from home, friends, family, sleep, etc? Why is it an expectation that we just work like little robots because we're on salary? That shouldn't be expected. And to say, "No, I'm not going to do this, I deserve to be compensated for my time." That doesn't make me a bad vet. It makes me a reasonable human being.

 

[allieh8607]

Speaking of contracts, did anyone take a job without a contract? I work for a smaller corporate company, and all I was given when I was offered the job was a salary and benefits package that I could either accept or decline, and a non-compete to sign. But no contract that really states the terms of my employment and it does worry me a little bit.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

As far as I know, we don't here, or at least I've never heard of it happening. We have a few decent business electives, but I'm not sure if they actually cover contracts.

Maybe this is something I can try to organize..although Minnerbelle brings up a good point in that someone who has been in academia for the entirety of their career may not be the best person to help out. Maybe a local GP vet.

You really don't seem to have any qualms about being blatantly disrespectful and insulting towards colleagues about this. I understand you may feel strongly, but you're just taking jabs at people's livelihoods at this point.

We get that you don't like pro-sal. Cool, so don't take a job with it. Doesn't mean you need to degrade others and call them sweatshop workers. Seriously, wtf?

WTF? I'll tell you.......I think it's a disservice to the profession, that's why. It goes beyond me not wanting to be paid that way. Yes, I do think owners who pay that way are treating medicine like piecework.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

WTF? I'll tell you.......I think it's a disservice to the profession, that's why. It goes beyond me not wanting to be paid that way. Yes, I do think owners who pay that way are treating medicine like piecework.

That's fine, that's your opinion. I just don't think you need to be calling into question the ethics of your colleagues while vehemently opposing their way of living. Vets get enough crap from the public as is, I think a fellow DVM blatantly shaming and degrading peers is just as much as a disservice to the profession.

Whatever, no one is trying to change your mind here, just show you that your judgement of them is incorrect

 

[Coquette22]

Speaking of contracts, did anyone take a job without a contract? I work for a smaller corporate company, and all I was given when I was offered the job was a salary and benefits package that I could either accept or decline, and a non-compete to sign. But no contract that really states the terms of my employment and it does worry me a little bit.

I'd be super worried about that and insist on a contract. The contract make it very clear what the terms of employment are and makes sure everyone is on the same page. Sit down with the owners and get one, both for their protection and yours.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Speaking of contracts, did anyone take a job without a contract? I work for a smaller corporate company, and all I was given when I was offered the job was a salary and benefits package that I could either accept or decline, and a non-compete to sign. But no contract that really states the terms of my employment and it does worry me a little bit.

What are these "terms of employment" that you think you are missing?

Like time frame of employment and how termination works? I don't have any of that in my contract either, and I think that's fine. It means I can just quit when I feel like it (with adequate notice of course, whatever that means). And I can assume I'm employed forever until they give me the boot without renewing a contract every year. It means that if you're on salary, the onus is on you to negotiate a raise.

If you're on any sort of production system, it should say very clearly how that works. What percentage you get on what services/products, and what things are excluded.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

I just don't think you need to be calling into question the ethics of your colleagues

Where did I do that?

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Where did I do that?

Oh boy.

If you really don't think that you said anything of the sort, then there's no point in me taking the time to quote each post.

 

[VIN-Foundation]

About to enter contract negotiations myself and I feel like I have no idea what I'm doing.

The VIN foundation has a model contract that might be helpful for you.
https://vinfoundation.org/resources/model-employment-contract/

William Thomas

 

[iamapm]

Well the title is simple enough, and what I am wondering is exactly that, what do new graduates consider when looking for employment. Are you motivated by money or are you motivated by the possibility of achievement, are you looking for a fun work place? What motivates the new Graduates to take the jobs that they do take? So if the New grads, or Veterinarians looking for positions would humor me I'm wondering if I can you get these list of Motivators listed in terms of importance Most important at the top and least important at the bottom. Thanks in advance to those who participate.

Achievement
Finacial Reward
Physical Environment
Identity and purpose
Learning
Fun and Enjoyment
Stability
Social Factors
Balanced Lifestyle
Improvement

What are you willing to GIVE and contribute to get what you want?