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Are they 80 hours like most, or do they vary a lot more? How about being on-call? Thanks!
What are psych residencies like?
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In a bad week, where I'm on call 3+ times, it can be 80+ hours. On average though, this is relatively infrequent in comparison. On-call definately varies depending on the institution. Many city programs won't allow you a minute to sit down overnight, whereas rural community programs may be relatively chill - perhaps a couple or few drop into the psych ER.
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Anasai23- I think you mentioned in one of your previous posts that you got a clinical psych PhD before becoming a psychiatrist. Will you talk a little bit about that transition? For example, when did you find the time to take pre-med classes, and do you find that the psychology training getting your PhD helped you to be a better psychiatrist? Is it much easier to get into med school after getting a Phd in a related area?
I'm a first year clinical psych PhD student with a sudden interest in medicine after taking practically no science classes in college. . . I like my psych program though and worked incredibly hard to get here, so I don't think it makes sense to abandon what I'm doing now. However, I'm considering taking a general bio class to see if I can hack the pre-med requirements. Perhaps I'll eventually go to med school even though some would think I'm nuts for getting more than a decade of post-college education.
I'm a first year clinical psych PhD student with a sudden interest in medicine after taking practically no science classes in college. . . I like my psych program though and worked incredibly hard to get here, so I don't think it makes sense to abandon what I'm doing now. However, I'm considering taking a general bio class to see if I can hack the pre-med requirements. Perhaps I'll eventually go to med school even though some would think I'm nuts for getting more than a decade of post-college education.
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Sure,
I was in a PhD program, but didn't complete it. I quit it and received a Master's degree while deciding to pursue med school instead. I, like you, took relatively few hard science classes in undergrad. I took a few biopsychology classes, but there really is no comparison to science classes from the science dept. I took a full-fledged post-bacc curriculum, which consisted of (if I remember correctly) 2 semesters bio, physics with lab I, and II, chemistry with lab I, and II, organic chem with lab I, and II. I had already taken calculus, which is not required at all schools. I managed to keep my job in mental health working for the county on the weekends and at nights (did a lot of homework on the night shifts). It was difficult especially because I crammed it all into a year and a half, instead of the normal two years. Usually people will take one or two difficult science classes in undergrad and pad it with easier ones so that the pain is sort of spread out. Post bacc programs are more concentrated, and therefore more difficult in my opinion. All the while, you're trying to maintain nothing lower than a B+ in each of these, which can be difficult depending on the professor.
One mistake I made that I would have done differently, is that I would have taken the classes over 2 years instead and taken some other courses, like physio, biochem, anatomy. Most of your classmates in med school will have taken these, and they are therefore at a distince advantage. I can't tell you how much stuff in those classes is "glossed over" because the professor says, "well, you guys had this in undergrad, so we'll just move really quickly through it and get to the harder stuff," etc. Meanwhile, everyone else is moving to the advanced stuff and you're scattering trying to get the basics.
I didn't do well in my first couple blocks of tests, because I studied like I had in psych grad school. In grad school, aside from the statistics courses, you can basically skim and get general principles with a few facts, and get through the theoretically-based tests and essays without too much difficulty if you're a good writer. In med school, multiple choices are tricky, designed to be so, and often have <50% pass rate. Granted these scores are (usually) curved, but it just testifies to the difficulty of the classes. Since the classes are much larger than grad school, individual restitution is dificult.
Psych grad school definately helped me get into med school. I gained entrance to 3, I think, and at every interview, my grad school was brought up. I used the concept in my personal statements (both for med school and residency) and basically told admissions committees that psych grad school was fine, but ultimately not for me....that I preferred a medical model, and most importantly, wanted to have a full arsenal, both diagnostically and therapeutically, to treat my patients. I also wanted to know that patients I was treated were at least offered the knowledge a fully-trained physician to eyeball them medically to fetter out masquerading or concomitant medical illness. Prescription privilage stuff was talked about even back then. I remember the psych students were so excited about it. But after having been treated like crap by physicians on multiple occasions in the hospitals as a psych grad student, and not wanting to be limited or have to fight in any way in my treatment modalities, not being allowed to write in charts as a psychologist, etc, I just decided to bite the bullet and do med school. That, and the 5-hour testing sessions were really, really starting to get on my nerves. I dreaded going to practicums knowing I had to sit with brain-injured patients for hours on end. When a demented lady threw the Wisconsin Cards all over the room and I spent an hour putting them back in the correct order, I quit the next day. I had a backup plan, though. I got the PhD folks to agree that if I didn't gain entry, I could re-matriculate to grad school, so it was really a no lose situation (except for the lost time in post-bacc).
To this day in psych residency, my psych grad school experience helps/helped me. Most psych grad school folks don't appreciate the amount of classical psychiatry imparted on you by the more analytically or classicly trained psychiatrists. Further, the research training I received in grad school is still a great help to me. I spend much less time looking up every detail about studies, since I had a solid background in that the first couple years of grad school. I also think that the rxp folks don't appreciate the knowledge and medicine-like thinking style gained in clinical rotations in med school. These two years of clinical rotations are often the only opportunity to gain clinical and practical knowledge in important areas like infectious disease states, ob/gyn, surgical complications, etc. These areas, while seeming unrelated to prescribing zoloft, do have relevance in often underestimated ways. This entire concept is effectively eliminated from the rxp programs.
If you're thinking about med school, see if you too can get a Master's degree out of the deal. You may have to take a comp and complete a thesis, but at least you won't walk away with nothing. It's another degree for you wall, and will give you a strong springboard on which to create great personal statements for applying to med school or psych residency. (Are you looking to do psychiatry residency, or leave psych alltogether?) Either way, it can't hurt.
I was in a PhD program, but didn't complete it. I quit it and received a Master's degree while deciding to pursue med school instead. I, like you, took relatively few hard science classes in undergrad. I took a few biopsychology classes, but there really is no comparison to science classes from the science dept. I took a full-fledged post-bacc curriculum, which consisted of (if I remember correctly) 2 semesters bio, physics with lab I, and II, chemistry with lab I, and II, organic chem with lab I, and II. I had already taken calculus, which is not required at all schools. I managed to keep my job in mental health working for the county on the weekends and at nights (did a lot of homework on the night shifts). It was difficult especially because I crammed it all into a year and a half, instead of the normal two years. Usually people will take one or two difficult science classes in undergrad and pad it with easier ones so that the pain is sort of spread out. Post bacc programs are more concentrated, and therefore more difficult in my opinion. All the while, you're trying to maintain nothing lower than a B+ in each of these, which can be difficult depending on the professor.
One mistake I made that I would have done differently, is that I would have taken the classes over 2 years instead and taken some other courses, like physio, biochem, anatomy. Most of your classmates in med school will have taken these, and they are therefore at a distince advantage. I can't tell you how much stuff in those classes is "glossed over" because the professor says, "well, you guys had this in undergrad, so we'll just move really quickly through it and get to the harder stuff," etc. Meanwhile, everyone else is moving to the advanced stuff and you're scattering trying to get the basics.
I didn't do well in my first couple blocks of tests, because I studied like I had in psych grad school. In grad school, aside from the statistics courses, you can basically skim and get general principles with a few facts, and get through the theoretically-based tests and essays without too much difficulty if you're a good writer. In med school, multiple choices are tricky, designed to be so, and often have <50% pass rate. Granted these scores are (usually) curved, but it just testifies to the difficulty of the classes. Since the classes are much larger than grad school, individual restitution is dificult.
Psych grad school definately helped me get into med school. I gained entrance to 3, I think, and at every interview, my grad school was brought up. I used the concept in my personal statements (both for med school and residency) and basically told admissions committees that psych grad school was fine, but ultimately not for me....that I preferred a medical model, and most importantly, wanted to have a full arsenal, both diagnostically and therapeutically, to treat my patients. I also wanted to know that patients I was treated were at least offered the knowledge a fully-trained physician to eyeball them medically to fetter out masquerading or concomitant medical illness. Prescription privilage stuff was talked about even back then. I remember the psych students were so excited about it. But after having been treated like crap by physicians on multiple occasions in the hospitals as a psych grad student, and not wanting to be limited or have to fight in any way in my treatment modalities, not being allowed to write in charts as a psychologist, etc, I just decided to bite the bullet and do med school. That, and the 5-hour testing sessions were really, really starting to get on my nerves. I dreaded going to practicums knowing I had to sit with brain-injured patients for hours on end. When a demented lady threw the Wisconsin Cards all over the room and I spent an hour putting them back in the correct order, I quit the next day. I had a backup plan, though. I got the PhD folks to agree that if I didn't gain entry, I could re-matriculate to grad school, so it was really a no lose situation (except for the lost time in post-bacc).
To this day in psych residency, my psych grad school experience helps/helped me. Most psych grad school folks don't appreciate the amount of classical psychiatry imparted on you by the more analytically or classicly trained psychiatrists. Further, the research training I received in grad school is still a great help to me. I spend much less time looking up every detail about studies, since I had a solid background in that the first couple years of grad school. I also think that the rxp folks don't appreciate the knowledge and medicine-like thinking style gained in clinical rotations in med school. These two years of clinical rotations are often the only opportunity to gain clinical and practical knowledge in important areas like infectious disease states, ob/gyn, surgical complications, etc. These areas, while seeming unrelated to prescribing zoloft, do have relevance in often underestimated ways. This entire concept is effectively eliminated from the rxp programs.
If you're thinking about med school, see if you too can get a Master's degree out of the deal. You may have to take a comp and complete a thesis, but at least you won't walk away with nothing. It's another degree for you wall, and will give you a strong springboard on which to create great personal statements for applying to med school or psych residency. (Are you looking to do psychiatry residency, or leave psych alltogether?) Either way, it can't hurt.
P
Pterion
PsychStudent said:Anasai23- I think you mentioned in one of your previous posts that you got a clinical psych PhD before becoming a psychiatrist. Will you talk a little bit about that transition? For example, when did you find the time to take pre-med classes, and do you find that the psychology training getting your PhD helped you to be a better psychiatrist? Is it much easier to get into med school after getting a Phd in a related area?
I'm a first year clinical psych PhD student with a sudden interest in medicine after taking practically no science classes in college. . . I like my psych program though and worked incredibly hard to get here, so I don't think it makes sense to abandon what I'm doing now. However, I'm considering taking a general bio class to see if I can hack the pre-med requirements. Perhaps I'll eventually go to med school even though some would think I'm nuts for getting more than a decade of post-college education.
Hi, PsychStudent!
I am a first-year medical student who returned to pre-med classes after earning a PsyD. I had a job and career that I hated so much that all the extra work of night classes and prepping for the MCAT didn't seem that bad.
I could not agree more with Anasazi about the immediate disadvantages of not being from a "hard science" background. I'm doing well, but I simply can't compete with those who have had the courses before - it's not a level playing field.
So far, the greatest advantage of having a graduate degree is knowing how to structure my time and critically analyze and organize the enormous amount of material. And since my doctoral program was taught almost exclusively by PhD's, my dissertation is a solid piece of work and has been well received by our research-obsessed faculty. As a snotty aside, I wasn't in favor of rxp when I was practicing psychology - medical school has only cemented that opinion. Med school intensity is something you can only understand if you do it.
I would say that if you are interested, do it. Find out now rather than wait. I wish I had. (Although the upshot was meeting my wife in graduate school, that I wouldn't trade). Good luck and I hope you enjoy your bio class!
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PsychStudent said:Anasai23- I think you mentioned in one of your previous posts that you got a clinical psych PhD before becoming a psychiatrist. Will you talk a little bit about that transition? For example, when did you find the time to take pre-med classes, and do you find that the psychology training getting your PhD helped you to be a better psychiatrist? Is it much easier to get into med school after getting a Phd in a related area?
I'm a first year clinical psych PhD student with a sudden interest in medicine after taking practically no science classes in college. . . I like my psych program though and worked incredibly hard to get here, so I don't think it makes sense to abandon what I'm doing now. However, I'm considering taking a general bio class to see if I can hack the pre-med requirements. Perhaps I'll eventually go to med school even though some would think I'm nuts for getting more than a decade of post-college education.
Hi PsychStudent:
I too am a psychologist on my way to becoming a psychiatrist (PsyD doing pre-med right now).
As a 1st year PhD student you're looking at 5 more years of psychology education/training plus 1-2 yrs pre-med, (1 yr for applying), 4 yrs med school, and 4 yrs psychiatry residency.
That's A LOT of years!!!
I wish I would have gotten my interest in med before grad school since I would have saved myself 6 yrs but I didn't develop the interest in med until my psych internship/fellowship when the reality of the limitations of psychology vis a vis psychiatry became very apparent (e.g., scope of practice and scale of reimbursement).
Since you have developed this interest now I would strongly suggest that you pursue it as soon as possible (i.e., take bio, anatomy, biochem) to determine if its just a passing attraction or if its something that you can commit to.
If you determine that its really for you then I would suggest that you don't hesitate.
I know that to leave grad school now would be a monumental decision but I just couldn't see following through with something that will require so much dedication if your passion is with something else.
Peace.
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Wow, I'm amazed by all the responses! So many disenchanted psychologists! Do you know other psychologists who have taken the medical route later, or is this message board an anomaly?
I really like my PhD program a lot, but I also feel like I'm "not getting the whole picture" if that makes sense. I want to know more about the brain, psychopharm, etc and be able to treat my clients using both psychotherapy and meds. My program is one of the most research-based clinical psych programs in the country so I'm getting a great base in stats, research design, and the empirical work that's been done in the field, but we get very little clinic training (and none outside of CBT) and I think we only have one psychopharm class. In the future I'd like to eventually split my time between outcomes research (both meds and psychotherapy) and seeing clients, so if I stayed with the PhD route I would probably need to get additional post-doc training in psychotherapy anyway.
So back to maybe trying out the premed thing, I agree that I should explore it asap, but I'm not sure the best way of going about it. Should I just talk to my advisor about potentially taking an undergrad bio course next year or during the summer? We're required to stay here during the summer to do research, but perhaps I'd be allowed to take a class too. I'm guessing that I can't start in the middle of the year because all premed classes are year-long. Except for one semester of English I would literally have to take every premed requirement which is part of the reason that I definitely don't want to abandon my current program until I know for sure medicine is for me.
Does anyone have any other advice they'd like to share? I really wish I had at least tried the premed curriculum as an undergrad because I have no idea whether I can hack it or not!
I really like my PhD program a lot, but I also feel like I'm "not getting the whole picture" if that makes sense. I want to know more about the brain, psychopharm, etc and be able to treat my clients using both psychotherapy and meds. My program is one of the most research-based clinical psych programs in the country so I'm getting a great base in stats, research design, and the empirical work that's been done in the field, but we get very little clinic training (and none outside of CBT) and I think we only have one psychopharm class. In the future I'd like to eventually split my time between outcomes research (both meds and psychotherapy) and seeing clients, so if I stayed with the PhD route I would probably need to get additional post-doc training in psychotherapy anyway.
So back to maybe trying out the premed thing, I agree that I should explore it asap, but I'm not sure the best way of going about it. Should I just talk to my advisor about potentially taking an undergrad bio course next year or during the summer? We're required to stay here during the summer to do research, but perhaps I'd be allowed to take a class too. I'm guessing that I can't start in the middle of the year because all premed classes are year-long. Except for one semester of English I would literally have to take every premed requirement which is part of the reason that I definitely don't want to abandon my current program until I know for sure medicine is for me.
Does anyone have any other advice they'd like to share? I really wish I had at least tried the premed curriculum as an undergrad because I have no idea whether I can hack it or not!
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Hi all! I'd love you hear your feeback on my last post! My main questions are:
1) What kinds of things should I do to help me figure out if an MD or PhD is right for me? Should I just take chem or bio and see how I fare?
2) What are the pros and cons of getting my PhD and then going for an MD versus leaving my PhD program and going straight for the MD? I'm 21 so the age factor isn't a huge concern for me now, but I do eventually want to have kids in the future.
3) How are job opportunities for both PhDs and MDs? I've heard that getting an academic position is incredibly hard for even a very accomplished PhD, but I'm not sure how difficult it is to get a good clinical job in a hospital setting. Of course I get the impression that the starting salary of a PhD in a clinical setting is 60K versus 120K for a psychiatrist, but I suppose I'd have to figure in loans and malpractice insurance there too.
Thanks so much for your help! I really appreciate it!
1) What kinds of things should I do to help me figure out if an MD or PhD is right for me? Should I just take chem or bio and see how I fare?
2) What are the pros and cons of getting my PhD and then going for an MD versus leaving my PhD program and going straight for the MD? I'm 21 so the age factor isn't a huge concern for me now, but I do eventually want to have kids in the future.
3) How are job opportunities for both PhDs and MDs? I've heard that getting an academic position is incredibly hard for even a very accomplished PhD, but I'm not sure how difficult it is to get a good clinical job in a hospital setting. Of course I get the impression that the starting salary of a PhD in a clinical setting is 60K versus 120K for a psychiatrist, but I suppose I'd have to figure in loans and malpractice insurance there too.
Thanks so much for your help! I really appreciate it!
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PsychStudent said:
Hi all, I'd also love to hear your responses to PsychStudent's questions as well as the original post - What is residency like? I know the hours are long for all residencies, but asside from that, how does it work? When do you sleep? When do you see loved ones? How is it possible to function and not prescribe fatal combinations of medicine with such little sleep?
I am also in a mini switch from psychology to psychiatry - I started out planning to apply to Clinical Psychology programs but ended up applying to post-bac pre-med programs instead for all of the reasons mentioned in previous posts. However, I am TERRIFIED of residency. What is it like and how to you do it?
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Most psych residencies leave the 80 hour rule in the dust sometime into the second year. Internship is hell--there's just no other way around it--but calls usually lessen and even almost disappear as you get into the senior years. (Compare that with a third-year medicine or surgery resident and there's, well, no comparison!) Different programs will structure this differently, but I went home to my family most nights. I only felt impaired a few times during my inpatient medicine & neuro months as an intern, and there were senior residents watching out for my mistakes in those cases.
Snugstar said:
