What are salaries actually looking like these days?

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35 hrs * 48 wks * $250 = 420k?
 
Blanky said:
35 hrs * 48 wks * $250 = 420k?
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Maybe he was generous with his vacation time? lol Idt anyone actually works a full 48 weeks a year.

Edit: Nvm, sorry, this is assuming 4 weeks vacation. Maybe he takes more but didn't take it into consideration
 
TooMuchResearch said:
Who takes vacation? It's worked into the schedule. If you work X shifts per month on average, your vacation goes around that.
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Forgive my ignorance. Is this just because of the fluidity of the EM scheduling where you can cluster shifts and therefore have stretches of time off naturally?
 
KeikoTanaka said:
Forgive my ignorance. Is this just because of the fluidity of the EM scheduling where you can cluster shifts and therefore have stretches of time off naturally?
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My [academic] group takes scheduled vacations. I think it’s pretty atypical.
 
WildcatS11 said:
My [academic] group takes scheduled vacations. I think it’s pretty atypical.
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Approximately how many shifts a month does an ED physician work, and, does that change depending on if the shift lengths are 8, 9, or 12 hours long? Does this change Academic vs Community hospital, assuming both are adequately staffed
 
KeikoTanaka said:
Approximately how many shifts a month does an ED physician work, and, does that change depending on if the shift lengths are 8, 9, or 12 hours long? Does this change Academic vs Community hospital, assuming both are adequately staffed
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For EM academic jobs, it’s typically more accurate to think in hours/year (which,depending on the job and method of scheduling can be broken down to hours/month equally - ours however schedules by 3 month blocks so months can be disparate). Full time equivalent typically ranges from 1400-1600, from what I’ve seen - which works out to 10-11 12 hr shifts, or 14-16 8 hour shifts per month - but a lot of these have vacation thrown in too. Plus, most academics end up getting some buy down, so do not work this full amount clinically.

That being said, there is a wide variation in possible contracts.
 
My area of the country is around 185-220/hr. It is not the highest paying area. I personally have a dedicated nocturnist position at 265/hr IC with 140 average monthly hours.
 
RPedigo said:
Completely varies based on your geography. In Los Angeles, pay is below the median, with most community jobs per diem paying between $180-220 per hour. Full time academic positions range from $220-320k/year, community somewhat higher.
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I'd be curious to hear about your experience in academics in LA if you're willing to share.
 
DeadCactus said:
I'd be curious to hear about your experience in academics in LA if you're willing to share.
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Sure, I'd be happy to answer any questions. I have been very happy with my current position at Harbor-UCLA Medical Center. The faculty work approximately ten 8-hour shifts per month, all with residents (except for the conference coverage shifts, which for most faculty is probably about one shift per month). After our roughly 20 clinical hours per week, we have a lot of administrative/education tasks, depending on your position in the department. For me I do all the medical student-related things, including reviewing VSAS applications, coordinating simulation/ultrasound workshops for them, one-on-one meetings with the students, and writing their visiting evaluations/SLOEs. I also do a lot of resident education activities. It's very rewarding and the patient population is wonderful to work with. If you have any specific questions I can definitely address them. The pay to cost of living isn't outstanding (if you want specifics, county and UC employees salaries are actually public information), but it is enough.
 
RPedigo said:
Sure, I'd be happy to answer any questions. I have been very happy with my current position at Harbor-UCLA Medical Center. The faculty work approximately ten 8-hour shifts per month, all with residents (except for the conference coverage shifts, which for most faculty is probably about one shift per month). After our roughly 20 clinical hours per week, we have a lot of administrative/education tasks, depending on your position in the department. For me I do all the medical student-related things, including reviewing VSAS applications, coordinating simulation/ultrasound workshops for them, one-on-one meetings with the students, and writing their visiting evaluations/SLOEs. I also do a lot of resident education activities. It's very rewarding and the patient population is wonderful to work with. If you have any specific questions I can definitely address them. The pay to cost of living isn't outstanding (if you want specifics, county and UC employees salaries are actually public information), but it is enough.
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You do 10x8? That’s full time????
 
EM salaries hasn't really changed much but what has is Locums rates/opportunities. Supply is starting to meet demand but its not like rates are falling.

You can find $225/hr easily. $275/hr still avail but not you have to look for it and a recruiter isn't cold calling you.

Most docs who are burnt out hold some blame as it is hard to go from making 400K to 200K.

Its seems easy to cut to 20 hrs a wk and make 200K but its difficult when one has already set their lifestyle.

If most EM docs work 20 hrs a wk and make 225K/yr, burnout would be much less.
 
Well, $200k sounds like a lot from the outside. But $200k a year is really $176k/yr after $24k/year in retirement savings and $152k/year after student loan payments and now $100k/yr after taxes. Then you've got to make up the lost ground for being in school in and training in your twenties instead of working. Suddenly your lifestyle is closer to peers who make $60 or 70k a year. Again, not bad for 20 hours a week. But maybe not the most satisfying trade-off for losing out on travelling in your 20's, missing on major family events for a decade, living an unhealthy lifestyle for a decade, getting spit at and cussed out, and wondering if today is the day some psychiatric or substance abuse patients decides to follow you to your car after your shift. Then add in the constant stream of nurses, techs, MBA's, celebrities, assorted quacks, and wikipediaers who think the education you sacrificed for has no more value than the TED talk they watched on the way in. Then you go home and try to enjoy some Netflix or a beer on your porch only to find yourself playing "I wonder if that kid or that mother or that son would have been alive if someone else had been on shift that day". But hey, you make middle-class money working half-time.

The point isn't that physicians can't live comfortably. The point is that it's ridiculous to talk as if some $/hr ratio is the key to avoiding burnout. You avoid burnout by being happy with the return on your investment both long term and on a daily level. That requires careful attention to a lot of factors and solid career and life planning. I think that's an important concept to get out to trainees. You have to take ownership of your life beyond targeting simple metrics like salary and hours worked if you actually want to be satisfied with your career and lifestyle.
 
Ya mon. Most people don’t work 2x/week and live a normal life. You end up with girlfriends/boyfriends and you end up taking vacations....that’s $$$$. Or you get marrried....$$$$....or your finally 30 yrs old and all your friends have houses and cars so you want something like that.

For the average doctor who is 30...living in a large or very large city with average student loan of $150K out of residency...working 2x/week making ~200K you won’t end up that far ahead.

It’s doable but just think about it. How many part time doctors are out there? Virtually none for a reason
 
emergentmd said:
EM salaries hasn't really changed much but what has is Locums rates/opportunities. Supply is starting to meet demand but its not like rates are falling.

You can find $225/hr easily. $275/hr still avail but not you have to look for it and a recruiter isn't cold calling you.

Most docs who are burnt out hold some blame as it is hard to go from making 400K to 200K.

Its seems easy to cut to 20 hrs a wk and make 200K but its difficult when one has already set their lifestyle.

If most EM docs work 20 hrs a wk and make 225K/yr, burnout would be much less.
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Agreed. Even the upper $200/hr shifts are harder to find than 1 year ago. TX has dried up. Thinking about settling down somewhere as residencies and mid-levels continue to screw with that nice demand we had going.
 
Splenda88 said:
That is a pretty nice salary... Basically, EM docs can work 2 days (18hrs/wk) and still make 200k/yr. Why is there a high burnout then?
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Because it’s really tough to find a place that is ok to work at that will consistently have two non weekend shifts open. There are definitely jobs that you can work 72 hrs/month month in and month out but they’re not the rule. And unless you’re an absolute rockstar (possible but unlikely) then you’re going to be at risk of getting punted out when volume goes up and they need a FT doc.
 
DeadCactus said:
W The point isn't that physicians can't live comfortably. The point is that it's ridiculous to talk as if some $/hr ratio is the key to avoiding burnout. You avoid burnout by being happy with the return on your investment both long term and on a daily level. That requires careful attention to a lot of factors and solid career and life planning. I think that's an important concept to get out to trainees. You have to take ownership of your life beyond targeting simple metrics like salary and hours worked if you actually want to be satisfied with your career and lifestyle.
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I think this is so key, whether you do academics or non-academics. Shifts are a schlog - you need something to buffer this. I'm at the point in my career where I am trying to find out for me what "this" is. Whether it's committee work, education, or something else, you need to find something to keep you professionally satisfied.
 
Our neck of the woods is dominated by private groups for now. Pay is good. 350-500k depending on the set up and how much you want to work. The highest paying job in town pays even more for total package. Academic pay is closer to 270-300k. CMGs are out in the periphery and have some micro EDs and smaller contracts and are paying 220-250/hr, but most are solo covered 12 hr places with maybe a mid level shift during the day. LCOL which is nice, good schools.

But all of this is subject to change quickly. CMGs start taking contracts, pay goes down. Medicare for all passes or ACA goes away, pay goes down. Insurance companies start squeezing, pay goes down. Gotta make money while we can, but EM can be volatile when the pay is good. I think EM will stay in the 250-350k range for a while since the need is there. It will just depend on how much you want to work and how good your payor mix is and how desirable your location is to work.
 
250-350K can be good or bad, depending. I generally make about 600K WITHOUT benefits. If you're only making 350K, you'd better have a decent benefit package, like health insurance, included 401K match, disability, life insurance, etc.
 
GeneralVeers said:
250-350K can be good or bad, depending. I generally make about 600K WITHOUT benefits. If you're only making 350K, you'd better have a decent benefit package, like health insurance, included 401K match, disability, life insurance, etc.
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How many hours / month do you work? I work ~120 / mo for ~375k / year without benefits. I am on my spouse's health insurance. This is PLENTY of money. I max out solo 401k, backdoor roths, save for house, live in a nice place, take multiple vacations a year, and generally have enough cash flow after that to do what I want with it.
 
A CMG is already offering me 220/hr for day 230/hr for night plus 10$ per RVU. 12hr shifts, 10 shifts/month at a community facility with 44,000 visits a year. With a stipend and student loan repayment if I sign now for a 2yr contract.
 
GeneralVeers said:
250-350K can be good or bad, depending. I generally make about 600K WITHOUT benefits. If you're only making 350K, you'd better have a decent benefit package, like health insurance, included 401K match, disability, life insurance, etc.
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Holly molly...
 
Splenda88 said:
Holly molly...
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This is not that uncommon with certain groups. I won't post my income (can be used during litigation), but I will say that many docs in my group are in the same range. Some of us work 2,000+ hours/year and make on the upper end of the scale.
 
southerndoc said:
This is not that uncommon with certain groups. I won't post my income (can be used during litigation), but I will say that many docs in my group are in the same range. Some of us work 2,000+ hours/year and make on the upper end of the scale.
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And there's the kicker. That's 165+ hrs/month which would be untenable to me. More power to ya though for being able to sustain that clip!
 
southerndoc said:
This is not that uncommon with certain groups. I won't post my income (can be used during litigation), but I will say that many docs in my group are in the same range. Some of us work 2,000+ hours/year and make on the upper end of the scale.
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2,000 hrs/year is like working 40 hrs/wk... That's great for most specialties. I know EM hours can be brutal but 40 hrs/wk is not killer hours.
 
southerndoc said:
This is not that uncommon with certain groups. I won't post my income (can be used during litigation), but I will say that many docs in my group are in the same range. Some of us work 2,000+ hours/year and make on the upper end of the scale.
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They can easily get your income for litigation
 
Splenda88 said:
2,000 hrs/year is like working 40 hrs/wk... That's great for most specialties. I know EM hours can be brutal but 40 hrs/wk is not killer hours.
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Wouldn't that be 4-5 shifts a week? Sound pretty damn killer
 
Splenda88 said:
I know EM hours can be brutal but 40 hrs/wk is not killer hours.
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Incorrect.

For the vast majority of humans, working in the vast majority of EDs, with the most common of EM schedules (ie plenty of shifting sleep schedules) working 40hrs/wk is killer...

...unless one's alimony+child support payments are more killer than the pain of working 40hrs/wk. Then perhaps it's all relative.
 
CajunMedic said:
A CMG is already offering me 220/hr for day 230/hr for night plus 10$ per RVU. 12hr shifts, 10 shifts/month at a community facility with 44,000 visits a year. With a stipend and student loan repayment if I sign now for a 2yr contract.
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That's pretty good money, not bad.

I made about 10,000 RVUs last year, thats working about 14 days/month. So that RVU multiplier will put another 100K in your pocket.
 
Bea5T said:
Wouldn't that be 4-5 shifts a week? Sound pretty damn killer
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Yes that is a lot of shifts, a lot of time. Remember that the messed up scheduling makes you sleep at weird hours, you can't get as much done during that time.

I work about 18 days/month and I'm only useful for about 4-5 days. The other days I'm just finishing charts at home, avoiding the kids and all their problems, and listening to the Dead. 🙂
 
140 hours a month isn't that hard if you are doing 12 hour shifts. That's only 12 shifts a month to make $604K per year.

If doing 10's, I can easily work 14 shifts/month with no problem and make similar money. The key is being flexible in your geographic area. Want to work in the NE, SoCal, or do academics? Then you are stuck making a pauper's wage.
 
GeneralVeers said:
140 hours a month isn't that hard if you are doing 12 hour shifts. That's only 12 shifts a month to make $604K per year.

If doing 10's, I can easily work 14 shifts/month with no problem and make similar money. The key is being flexible in your geographic area. Want to work in the NE, SoCal, or do academics? Then you are stuck making a pauper's wage.
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I don’t make a paupers wage, now maybe I don’t make 600k, but I’m putting food on the table. Maybe I drive an accord or f150 instead of a Tesla or g-series, but we’re still making ends meet.
 
CajunMedic said:
A CMG is already offering me 220/hr for day 230/hr for night plus 10$ per RVU. 12hr shifts, 10 shifts/month at a community facility with 44,000 visits a year. With a stipend and student loan repayment if I sign now for a 2yr contract.
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How are you getting offers already? We just matched haha. And that does sound pretty good. 400k+ just in pay not including stipend/loan pay.
 
GeneralVeers said:
140 hours a month isn't that hard if you are doing 12 hour shifts. That's only 12 shifts a month to make $604K per year.

If doing 10's, I can easily work 14 shifts/month with no problem and make similar money. The key is being flexible in your geographic area. Want to work in the NE, SoCal, or do academics? Then you are stuck making a pauper's wage.
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Getting 12 12h shifts a month regularly at a site that is offering 350/hr is no longer an easy task.
 
EMhopeful2 said:
How are you getting offers already? We just matched haha. And that does sound pretty good. 400k+ just in pay not including stipend/loan pay.
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I've been getting calls from headhunters since my OMS-3 year. This was a referral from a PGY-2 that had gotten the same offer their intern year
 
GonnaBeADoc2222 said:
How many hours / month do you work? I work ~120 / mo for ~375k / year without benefits. I am on my spouse's health insurance. This is PLENTY of money. I max out solo 401k, backdoor roths, save for house, live in a nice place, take multiple vacations a year, and generally have enough cash flow after that to do what I want with it.
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What general geographical location and practice setting?!?
 
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