What constitutes grounds for publication?

[Chemistry>Physics]

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I'm a little mad in my lab.

Been in lab for a year. During this year I've been doing cell culture, cell viability assays, and some DNA transfection at 9 hours a week.

The scut work that is necessary for a lab to run. I get it. I'm not mad that I'm doing this, in fact I love bench research and I'm glad I even have this opportunity. Yet the lab is producing publications from the westerns that although I didn't run, I produced the cells for. I'm not getting involved in any of the process. Not writing the abstract, not getting told which journal it's going to, all I know is that there's a paper going out with data I have contributed towards.

All the research ethics seminars I've attended point to the same idea: "By law, any data that you produced, the PI has to put you on author"

I don't know how closely this rule in research is followed but here's the thing. I work for free. My currency is publications as simple minded as it may sound. Sure I'm learning science but learning science is better when you have something to show for it. I'm mad that I'm not put on any author. I realize how easy it might be to discount my work, but still it hurts. Anyways because I am a firm believer in the mantra "always make your superior look better than you" so I went soft and mentioned it by saying to my PI, "hey PI, what are some more ways I could get involved in the lab on an electrophoresis experiment or something that might get me on a publication" which to me communicated a couple things to him like: "I'm not doing the level of work I want to. What more can I do" while also leaving the door slightly open to validating the idea that my scut work isn't worthy of a pub. Anyways his response three months ago was "let me think about that"

My PI came from industry. Zero clout. Stumbled into PI. No tenure. Lab is also breaching water fast without any funding. (Large -80 degree freezer broke and we haven't fixed it in 10 months)

Idk what to do. How could I politely ask to be on that publication after I already said that? Does it sound like I've done enough work to have at least a 5th author? It should also be noted I'm switching to a different lab. Could I politely say "could I get published on this?"


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[Gibbward]

9 hrs a week??? That's nothing!! Some people work way more than that and don't even get close to pubs.

Scut work typically won't get you into publications. Do you have ANY data/figure that actually is going into the paper? If you do maybe you have a case. But if all you did was grew up some cells and treated it with a reagent that someone else told you to do and then you passed on those cells to someone else, then no. Sorry kid. That's not how pubs in labs usually work.

 

[Lawpy]

My currency is publications as simple minded as it may sound.

Your currency should actually be your research experience and what you have learned. Publications are very difficult to get and depend a lot on many factors outside of the research work (including lab politics and luck). It's hard to even get presentations at national/international conferences!

Also, 9 hours per week is hardly anything. It's difficult to get publications in a basic science/wet lab even when working 40-60 hrs/week.

 

[desiredmembername123]

.

 

[NotASerialKiller]

Please ABORT, based on your entitlement in this post you have most likely ruined relationships in this lab. If you are transferring to a different lab, now is the perfect time in your life to gain some perspective and eat some humble pie.

Yikes, that's a bit too harsh, not sure where you're getting the ruined relationships thing from.

OP I think you approached the conversation you had with your PI really well. Remember that they're busy, and might have entirely forgot about it. If you want to get published in that lab, I don't see any harm in starting another conversation about it with him/her. Bring it up tactfully and express your desire to get published, mentioning that you'd be happy to do more than you currently are. They probably know that an undergrad would be thrilled to get published, so this shouldn't come across badly as long as you don't demand it.

I agree that the work you're doing now doesn't sound like something you should expect to get authorship for. My supervisor believes that only people who had some intellectual contribution to the manuscript should get authorship. That being said, I've seen people get on papers with very minimal contributions.

 

[desiredmembername123]

.

 

[NotASerialKiller]

Maybe I was a bit harsh, but IDK certain parts of OP's post reek of entitlement like: "By law, any data that you produced, the PI has to put you on author". I'm not sure what ethics seminars he has been going to but at best you would be lucky to get an acknowledgement on the paper if all you did was collect data and run experiments designed by others. Also: "My PI came from industry. Zero clout. Stumbled into PI. No tenure. Lab is also breaching water fast without any funding. (Large -80 degree freezer broke and we haven't fixed it in 10 months) ". If he let any of what he just said leak into his conversations with those in the lab, even just a hint of it, I doubt they would take it well. Grad students have infinitely more skin in this lab if it is legitimately tanking, and probably wouldn't take kindly to some undergrad being worried about getting a publication, and then high tailing it out of there.

Yeah, but I suspect most of that was because it was online anonymous venting. The conversation s/he described sounded pretty reasonable. I think expectations were just inflated because of apparently misleading research ethics seminars. I don't know, maybe it's just that @gonnif finally convinced me to be nicer to kids on the internet.

 

[Doctor-S]

It is important to remember that publication credits are "earned" with integrity; they are NOT handed out like candy treats.

In other words: an individual who has made a substantial, direct, intellectual contribution to the work or the study may be listed as an author.

It's all about intellectual work, dedication, contribution, and integrity. There are no short cuts.

Thank you.

 

[Noctámbulo]

From the description you've provided, it sounds like you are doing technical work that's typically left for the 'acknowledgements' section of a manuscript (and even then, if your PI is nice). You are early in your research career, and at this point, building sound interpersonal relationships should be your greatest priority. You can leverage this later on to become involved and included in making intellectual decisions, slowly earning your independence in the lab.

 

[idontwatchgreysanatomy]

By law? Well then, all you need to do is file a report with the research police and press charges against your PI so they have to go to research court and get sentenced to research jail.

The reality is, you work 9 hours a week. I work more than that in a day, almost every day, in my current lab and I haven't gotten a publication yet. There is absolutely nothing of substance that you can contribute with 9 hours a week. You are not designing the experiments and seeing them through to fruition. You are an assistant. Being the person that cultures the cells used in an experiment is not worthy of authorship for most PIs.

 

[Espressso]

Okay so all the comments so far have been pretty... blunt.

OP, may I ask.. what year are you in UG?

EDIT: And also.. have you worked/volunteered in any other labs through your University?

 

[Gryffindor20]

OP, the way I see it, you can do two things.

1) Find another lab to work in, with a PI that is more experienced and is more used to working with students (these types usually are understanding and will try to help you work your way to a publication)

2) Stay at this lab, work as hard as you can, and try to appreciate that if nothing else, you are getting great experience.

Nine hours a week is not that bad. Just FWI, I work about fifty hours a week (sometimes more!) for zero pay, have been working at the same lab for over a year, and I have yet to get a publication, although I have a few papers under review now. Sometimes you work your butt off just to get experience. The publications are just icing and sprinkles.

 

[LIC2015]

I'm a little mad in my lab.

Been in lab for a year. During this year I've been doing cell culture, cell viability assays, and some DNA transfection at 9 hours a week.

The scut work that is necessary for a lab to run. I get it. I'm not mad that I'm doing this, in fact I love bench research and I'm glad I even have this opportunity. Yet the lab is producing publications from the westerns that although I didn't run, I produced the cells for. I'm not getting involved in any of the process. Not writing the abstract, not getting told which journal it's going to, all I know is that there's a paper going out with data I have contributed towards.

All the research ethics seminars I've attended point to the same idea: "By law, any data that you produced, the PI has to put you on author"

I don't know how closely this rule in research is followed but here's the thing. I work for free. My currency is publications as simple minded as it may sound. Sure I'm learning science but learning science is better when you have something to show for it. I'm mad that I'm not put on any author. I realize how easy it might be to discount my work, but still it hurts. Anyways because I am a firm believer in the mantra "always make your superior look better than you" so I went soft and mentioned it by saying to my PI, "hey PI, what are some more ways I could get involved in the lab on an electrophoresis experiment or something that might get me on a publication" which to me communicated a couple things to him like: "I'm not doing the level of work I want to. What more can I do" while also leaving the door slightly open to validating the idea that my scut work isn't worthy of a pub. Anyways his response three months ago was "let me think about that"

My PI came from industry. Zero clout. Stumbled into PI. No tenure. Lab is also breaching water fast without any funding. (Large -80 degree freezer broke and we haven't fixed it in 10 months)

Idk what to do. How could I politely ask to be on that publication after I already said that? Does it sound like I've done enough work to have at least a 5th author? It should also be noted I'm switching to a different lab. Could I politely say "could I get published on this?"


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Unfortunately, research can a very unforgiving job for volunteers and technicians. I volunteered in a lab for over 1,000 hrs at a very prestigious medical school and got zero publications out of it. My skills filled a very important niche, yet my PI was just one of those people that wouldn't put volunteers on a publication, regardless of the quality of their work. It was a bit ridiculous. I got a salaried position after seeing that the work I did was not being recognized, and a couple years into the second position I got two publications, second-authorship on two more publications, and authorship on at least three upcoming papers we are submitting soon. I worked 60+ hrs/week to earn them even though I got paid for 40 hrs/week, but that's what it takes to earn authorship. My point is, even if you produce fantastic data with the 9 hrs/week you work (which, as many others have already mentioned, is very little for a research job), the politics of your lab will dictate whether or not you get published. I found a PI who recognized that my skills would be extremely valuable and that I deserved to be on papers. But the previous labs I worked in did not give a rat's a** about my skills. They just wanted me to pump out data. It's important for you to be communicative with your PI, but if you sense they're not willing to recognize your contributions, find a lab that will. Don't waste your time with laborious work that won't earn you anything other than some more pipetting and cell culture experience.

 

[Chemistry>Physics]

Responses have been candid and unapologetic which I respect.

1) I'll admit that the tone I assumed above was entitled. I wouldn't talk to anyone like that about my situation outside of maybe a phone call with my mom if I was complaining about the lab.

2) minimum 9 hours a week although most weeks 12 hours

3) I have made gels for westerns and I have done tons of freeze bacs for cells

4) I'm a high school senior in my summer going into freshman year of college.

5) I see what everyone is saying. Cell work = not data, and none of the work amounted to a manuscript so I shouldn't expect squat.

6) hardly any grad students very small lab

7) what's a creative way to say, "hey PI, I've been working hard on these freeze bacs and changing the media for the cells that are used in these experiments. My lab mate told me he was helping you write a publication and well, I was wondering if there was an acknowledgment section if I could be on it. If not that is completely ok, I haven't done any significant data producing and I know that is a large pre requisite to getting involved in a publication"

To me any self respecting scientist that wanted to keep a young 4-years-of-free-labor lab tech would say, "hell let's make an acknowledgment section and put you center!" But I don't want to approach this hot potato and fumble it.


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[NotASerialKiller]

Responses have been candid and unapologetic which I respect.

1) I'll admit that the tone I assumed above was entitled. I wouldn't talk to anyone like that about my situation outside of maybe a phone call with my mom if I was complaining about the lab.

2) minimum 9 hours a week although most weeks 12 hours

3) I have made gels for westerns and I have done tons of freeze bacs for cells

4) I'm a high school senior in my summer going into freshman year of college.

5) I see what everyone is saying. Cell work = not data, and none of the work amounted to a manuscript so I shouldn't expect squat.

6) hardly any grad students very small lab

7) what's a creative way to say, "hey PI, I've been working hard on these freeze bacs and changing the media for the cells that are used in these experiments. My lab mate told me he was helping you write a publication and well, I was wondering if there was an acknowledgment section if I could be on it. If not that is completely ok, I haven't done any significant data producing and I know that is a large pre requisite to getting involved in a publication"

To me any self respecting scientist that wanted to keep a young 4-years-of-free-labor lab tech would say, "hell let's make an acknowledgment section and put you center!" But I don't want to approach this hot potato and fumble it.


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You haven't even started undergrad yet? You've got all the time in the world to get involved in lab work in a meaningful way, I thought you were a panicked junior or something.

I wouldn't ask to be in the acknowledgements, that's kind of silly. You wouldn't put that on a med school application or resume, no one really cares about the acknowledgements. If he lists you then hey, sorta neat to see your name somewhere on a paper. That's about the extent of it.

 

[JustAPhD]

You're still very nïeve when it comes to research, and I don't mean that in an inflammatory way, you're just young. Cell culture, gel prep, and freezing cells are important tasks but you're correct in saying these are things that don't warrant being added to the publication. Once you start to take on full experiments then you may have a reason to talk to the PI about publications, although this is dependent on the lab because some PIs won't put staff members who solely run experiments on papers.

You can try to get on the acknowledgements if if would make you feel better, but an acknowledgement isn't really a big deal, and not something you'd put on a resume or CV anyways.

You're not in college yet and have a ton of time to expand your research skills and experience. Keep in mind while publications are nice, they are hardly necessary in the application process. If you go into research with a box checking mentality you'll surely end up with a less than positive experience.

 

[sp4k]

Responses have been candid and unapologetic which I respect.

1) I'll admit that the tone I assumed above was entitled. I wouldn't talk to anyone like that about my situation outside of maybe a phone call with my mom if I was complaining about the lab.

2) minimum 9 hours a week although most weeks 12 hours

3) I have made gels for westerns and I have done tons of freeze bacs for cells

4) I'm a high school senior in my summer going into freshman year of college.

5) I see what everyone is saying. Cell work = not data, and none of the work amounted to a manuscript so I shouldn't expect squat.

6) hardly any grad students very small lab

7) what's a creative way to say, "hey PI, I've been working hard on these freeze bacs and changing the media for the cells that are used in these experiments. My lab mate told me he was helping you write a publication and well, I was wondering if there was an acknowledgment section if I could be on it. If not that is completely ok, I haven't done any significant data producing and I know that is a large pre requisite to getting involved in a publication"

To me any self respecting scientist that wanted to keep a young 4-years-of-free-labor lab tech would say, "hell let's make an acknowledgment section and put you center!" But I don't want to approach this hot potato and fumble it.


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what you're doing is basically maintenance. who cares.

acknowledgement section? who cares.

"4-years-of-free-labor lab tech" what about the experience?

you need to slow down and reconsider your motivation for doing research because to me it just sounds like you want something "pretty" for the med schol app.

 

[Shirafune]

Responses have been candid and unapologetic which I respect.

1) I'll admit that the tone I assumed above was entitled. I wouldn't talk to anyone like that about my situation outside of maybe a phone call with my mom if I was complaining about the lab.

2) minimum 9 hours a week although most weeks 12 hours

3) I have made gels for westerns and I have done tons of freeze bacs for cells

4) I'm a high school senior in my summer going into freshman year of college.

5) I see what everyone is saying. Cell work = not data, and none of the work amounted to a manuscript so I shouldn't expect squat.

6) hardly any grad students very small lab

7) what's a creative way to say, "hey PI, I've been working hard on these freeze bacs and changing the media for the cells that are used in these experiments. My lab mate told me he was helping you write a publication and well, I was wondering if there was an acknowledgment section if I could be on it. If not that is completely ok, I haven't done any significant data producing and I know that is a large pre requisite to getting involved in a publication"

To me any self respecting scientist that wanted to keep a young 4-years-of-free-labor lab tech would say, "hell let's make an acknowledgment section and put you center!" But I don't want to approach this hot potato and fumble it.


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This is a great saying one of my mentors told me: "if I can teach a monkey to do it, then it's just manual labor--no authorship." Subpassaging cells, freezing them down, DNA transfections, and any other technical/bench work aspect does not count towards authorship, though if you put in a lot of work for a generous PI, s/he may add you as a co-author.

The key point in authorship is intellectual contribution. Running experiments is secondary and really only a means to an end. As a start, double the time you spend in lab, or as much as you can, read (read read read read read) papers in your field, and go to lab meeting. You'll eventually gain the skills to design experiments, and, if approved by your PI, execute them independently. That warrants authorship.

 

[LIC2015]

This is a great saying one of my mentors told me: "if I can teach a monkey to do it, then it's just manual labor--no authorship." Subpassaging cells, freezing them down, DNA transfections, and any other technical/bench work aspect does not count towards authorship, though if you put in a lot of work for a generous PI, s/he may add you as a co-author.

The key point in authorship is intellectual contribution. Running experiments is secondary and really only a means to an end. As a start, double the time you spend in lab, or as much as you can, read (read read read read read) papers in your field, and go to lab meeting. You'll eventually gain the skills to design experiments, and, if approved by your PI, execute them independently. That warrants authorship.

Just to add to this - intellectual contribution doesn't mean you have to create an entire experiment. It's easy to argue that improving a protocol (such as finding a way to improve transfection efficiency) constitutes intellectual contribution. I earned my first publication by improving a surgical procedure on mice that were tested for behavioral changes. The improvement let us target a specific brain region more precisely, making our data more accurate and our discussion of false positives a lot easier to write in the manuscript. I also did a lot of histology and imaging that my PI and the paper's first author hadn't thought of, and it really made the paper a lot more interesting. I highly recommend you do what shirafune said and read so many papers that you feel like you can discuss your lab's research fluently. Reading papers lets you see how other scientists design experiments, and how it may be useful for your own studies. During undergrad, if you want to earn publications, you'll have to work your a** off. Reading is a necessary part of that, don't rely just on your coursework (trust me, you won't learn nearly as much as you think from that biochem class).

 

[Reckoner]

7) what's a creative way to say, "hey PI, I've been working hard on these freeze bacs and changing the media for the cells that are used in these experiments. My lab mate told me he was helping you write a publication and well, I was wondering if there was an acknowledgment section if I could be on it. If not that is completely ok, I haven't done any significant data producing and I know that is a large pre requisite to getting involved in a publication"

To me any self respecting scientist that wanted to keep a young 4-years-of-free-labor lab tech would say, "hell let's make an acknowledgment section and put you center!" But I don't want to approach this hot potato and fumble it.

I wouldn't ask this. Most labs don't acknowledge techs in papers, let alone give them authorship. Your "currency" as a high school student is learning techniques and getting experience in a lab. Both of these will help you get lab positions as an undergrad where you can hopefully focus on your own project.

Even then I wouldn't focus exclusively on getting published. That's almost a guaranteed path to disappointment, in my experience. I worked for 3.5 years, 30+ hours a week in a lab in undergrad. Won some university awards for my research project... which just got published this month, four years after I left the lab. Focus on learning to think like a scientist, design experiments, and present your findings at conferences.

When you get into grad school you can worry about publications. As a high school student/undergrad there are better metrics for how successful your time in a lab has been.

 

[MaxPlancker]

You have to be straight up with your mentor. Discuss and ask persistently for your own project, from design to experiments to analysis and dissemination. Currently, you are not doing any "research"...you are doing the grunt work that someone has to do. You have to show initiative by reading a lot into your field and understanding what may be a project possibility for yourself. You also have to devote more time--PIs are hesitant to let UGs start their own project if they don't contribute 20-30 hours in most cases weekly because the project will go nowhere otherwise.

 

[Goro]

My philosophy with my own students is that if you made an intellectual contribution to the paper, you deserve authorship. This is pretty much the standard for the field.

However, did you work independently? Did you know what you were working on? Could you describe it to me, at an interview? Or how about your Gramma? OR, were you just follwoing orders like a tech?

The difference is that the latter gets a blurb in acknowledgments "We thank Chemistry>Physics for his/her expert technical assistance"

When you write "Yet the lab is producing publications from the westerns that although I didn't run, I produced the cells for", you're NOT making an intellectual contribution. You get no more credit that the people who run the autoclave, or run the flow cytometer.

Yes, you work for free, but you're learning something that an MS program would charge you $30,000 in tuition to learn.

Suggest you start asking "What can I do to earn a publication?"

I'm a little mad in my lab.

Been in lab for a year. During this year I've been doing cell culture, cell viability assays, and some DNA transfection at 9 hours a week.

The scut work that is necessary for a lab to run. I get it. I'm not mad that I'm doing this, in fact I love bench research and I'm glad I even have this opportunity. Yet the lab is producing publications from the westerns that although I didn't run, I produced the cells for. I'm not getting involved in any of the process. Not writing the abstract, not getting told which journal it's going to, all I know is that there's a paper going out with data I have contributed towards.

All the research ethics seminars I've attended point to the same idea: "By law, any data that you produced, the PI has to put you on author"

I don't know how closely this rule in research is followed but here's the thing. I work for free. My currency is publications as simple minded as it may sound. Sure I'm learning science but learning science is better when you have something to show for it. I'm mad that I'm not put on any author. I realize how easy it might be to discount my work, but still it hurts. Anyways because I am a firm believer in the mantra "always make your superior look better than you" so I went soft and mentioned it by saying to my PI, "hey PI, what are some more ways I could get involved in the lab on an electrophoresis experiment or something that might get me on a publication" which to me communicated a couple things to him like: "I'm not doing the level of work I want to. What more can I do" while also leaving the door slightly open to validating the idea that my scut work isn't worthy of a pub. Anyways his response three months ago was "let me think about that"

My PI came from industry. Zero clout. Stumbled into PI. No tenure. Lab is also breaching water fast without any funding. (Large -80 degree freezer broke and we haven't fixed it in 10 months)

Idk what to do. How could I politely ask to be on that publication after I already said that? Does it sound like I've done enough work to have at least a 5th author? It should also be noted I'm switching to a different lab. Could I politely say "could I get published on this?"


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[piii]

You're in high school? You're lucky just to be in the lab! Many PIs would be reluctant to let a high schooler in the lab.

 

[mistafab]

I'm here just to point out facts OP:

1. You are doing nothing useful in the lab.
2. You are in the lab because the PI wants to give you the opportunity to learn the techniques and process
3. Someone is looking out for you
4. You shouldnt expect a pub yet

Sure, it is a good to learn how to talk with PI's/superiors/whoever. It sounds like you approached the conversation the right way. It is just a fact that no one is going to take your work or ideas seriously this early on. This is an opportunity to learn, not crank pubs. Keep up the good work, eventually you will be getting pubs in other labs and will think back to all the stuff you didnt realize you learned from this experience.

 

[jtd2081]

Seeing this makes me upset. I worked my ASS off getting a publication. Worked closed to 9 hours a day, so to see this aggravates me.