What courses are more important in undergrad?

[neurom]

Hello all, I am currently a junior majoring in psychology with the goal to continue onto a PhD program (hopefully UF as I am already a Florida resident). My fields of interest are either pediatric neuropsychology or pediatric clinical psychology, but these may be subject to change as I'm open to many things.
My school does not offer a lot of "advanced" psychology courses or anything neuroscience related, but they do offer a handful of statistics courses. I was debating taking an additional 3 statistics courses (this is all I could fit), sort of like a minor but that's not offered at my school. They would be on computational methods, sample surveys, stuff like that. They would also introduce me to SPSS (I'm already working with this), R, SAS, and ANOVA. I want to have a big emphasis on research with my work, so I was thinking that taking the stats classes would be beneficial, but I wanted to know from personal experience what I should be pouring my extra time into.

Not to become too tangential, but I was previously going to take either additional courses in writing or science. I wanted to pursue a masters in neuroscience and then continue onto a PhD in psych, but this forum made me rethink this decision as I learned that I 1.) probably wouldn't like a solely neuroscience program and 2.) realized it's kind of a waste of time and money if my goal is a PhD in a different (yet somewhat similar) field. The writing courses were an idea due to the fact that I'm good at and enjoy writing, but also because it is a valuable skill to develop for a PhD. However, I think statistics could be much more beneficial, especially since writing can be developed without coursework in the subject, but correct me if I'm wrong and there are better options to consider. I've got 6 semesters left of undergrad, including summers.
Any ideas or advice is welcome, thanks everyone.

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[PsyDuck90]

as long as you do the required pre-reqs, coursework is a very small part of your application package. Are you involved with any research at your university? That’s really the best way to spend your time.

 

[neurom]

as long as you do the required pre-req coursework is a very small part of your application package. Are you involved with any research at your university? That’s really the best way to spend your time.

Not yet as I just transferred to a university from a community college where there were no opportunities. But I am planning to get involved in research after the summer semester. I'm only doing small research projects for class right now, and I am also beginning a 2 semester bachelor's thesis in psychology in a couple more months. Probably going to have to take a gap year though.

 

[summerbabe]

hopefully UF as I am already a Florida resident

Agreed with the other advice that as long as you meet general pre-reqs and do pretty well, it will not be looked at with any scrutiny. And to remain involved in research and hopefully work on some published posters/articles.

I will add that unlike public medical schools which often somewhat to very much prioritize residency status, I am not aware of that having any impact on PhD admissions.

The norm is to relocate for grad school and applications are looked at for merit and fit.

People who do undergrad work in a lab (and do it well) and then apply with that PI often get a boost. But that’s because the PI trusts you and not because of residency status. Good luck!

 

[neurom]

Agreed with the other advice that as long as you meet general pre-reqs and do pretty well, it will not be looked at with any scrutiny. And to remain involved in research and hopefully work on some published posters/articles.

I will add that unlike public medical schools which often somewhat to very much prioritize residency status, I am not aware of that having any impact on PhD admissions.

The norm is to relocate for grad school and applications are looked at for merit and fit.

People who do undergrad work in a lab (and do it well) and then apply with that PI often get a boost. But that’s because the PI trusts you and not because of residency status. Good luck!

I apologize, I meant that UF is my goal because I possibly won't be able to relocate (step kids and relationship). My partner and his ex have to agree if we relocate anywhere, so I'm trying to avoid that at all costs. But thank you both

 

[R. Matey]

Courses in linear algebra and calculus would set you apart if you are interested in having a research career. For clinical work though, it's fine to just do the requirements and stay involved in a lab. I know more about UF's counseling program than their clinical, but my experience is that research lab work is a pretty solid pipeline into graduate study.

 

[WisNeuro]

I apologize, I meant that UF is my goal because I possibly won't be able to relocate (step kids and relationship). My partner and his ex have to agree if we relocate anywhere, so I'm trying to avoid that at all costs. But thank you both

It will not be impossible, but this will make this career path VERY difficult for you. Geographical inflexibility is usually the biggest kiss of death. Admissions are very competitive, usually in single digit percentiles. Most people apply broadly, based on fit, and to double digit programs, and many still spend several years doing this before acceptance. And, assuming one gets into grad school, you run into a similar issue with internship applications, which you need in order to get your degree conferred. Again, not impossible, but it turns an already very hard path, into a much harder path.

 

[neurom]

It will not be impossible, but this will make this career path VERY difficult for you. Geographical inflexibility is usually the biggest kiss of death. Admissions are very competitive, usually in single digit percentiles. Most people apply broadly, based on fit, and to double digit programs, and many still spend several years doing this before acceptance. And, assuming one gets into grad school, you run into a similar issue with internship applications, which you need in order to get your degree conferred. Again, not impossible, but it turns an already very hard path, into a much harder path.

I understand and thank you for your honesty. I knew this was going to limit me greatly, but I don’t mind taking a few gap years, especially because in that time I may be able to relocate. But currently, I’m stuck only applying to FL schools. Just want to focus on making my app as competitive as possible in the time that I have.

 

[szymk1sm]

I understand and thank you for your honesty. I knew this was going to limit me greatly, but I don’t mind taking a few gap years, especially because in that time I may be able to relocate. But currently, I’m stuck only applying to FL schools. Just want to focus on making my app as competitive as possible in the time that I have.

If UF is your goal, there are no research faculty (to the best of my knowledge) who do funded pediatric neuropsychology research -- rather, you would have to identify co-mentors: 1) likely an adult neuro or peds person who does research and can fund you and then 2) a clinical peds neuropsychologist.

Ways to increase chances of gaining admission to UF (but that do not guarantee admission) are to obtain a post-bac research position with one of CHP's faculty (assuming you're interested in the CHP program given your peds and / or neuropsych interests) or get hired in as a psychometrist within the dept.

Second what @WisNeuro said above - putting all your eggs into one basket is not the best strategy (but seems like you know that based on your last post). There are a few FL programs to consider applying to, assuming you have a strong overall application (e.g., UF, USF, Miami ... I'm less familiar with UCF and FSU's programs).

 

[summerbabe]

I understand and thank you for your honesty. I knew this was going to limit me greatly, but I don’t mind taking a few gap years, especially because in that time I may be able to relocate. But currently, I’m stuck only applying to FL schools. Just want to focus on making my app as competitive as possible in the time that I have.

Totally fine to have a clear goal and to work hard towards it!

From personal experience, I consider UF and FSU as top tier clinical psych PhD programs in our field (but not sure if they are good fits for neuro-focused folks). I think I saw some data from a number of years ago that UF receives something like 100 applications for every spot they offer.

A quick google says there are also clinical programs at UCF and FIT PsyD (not sure if they offer funding), plus some counseling psych programs across the state which likely won't be a good fit for neuro-focused students.

I'd stay away from Carlos Albizu and Nova SE PsyDs because beyond the self-pay costs, I've seen enough internship applications from these programs to not recommend them.

 

[neurom]

If UF is your goal, there are no research faculty (to the best of my knowledge) who do funded pediatric neuropsychology research -- rather, you would have to identify co-mentors: 1) likely an adult neuro or peds person who does research and can fund you and then 2) a clinical peds neuropsychologist.

Ways to increase chances of gaining admission to UF (but that do not guarantee admission) are to obtain a post-bac research position with one of CHP's faculty (assuming you're interested in the CHP program given your peds and / or neuropsych interests) or get hired in as a psychometrist within the dept.

Second what @WisNeuro said above - putting all your eggs into one basket is not the best strategy (but seems like you know that based on your last post). There are a few FL programs to consider applying to, assuming you have a strong overall application (e.g., UF, USF, Miami ... I'm less familiar with UCF and FSU's programs).

Thank you for that tip, I appreciate it! I've looked into UCF's program and I'm also interested in that one, and I currently go to USF so I will probably apply here as well. Miami is a bit too far but I'm just going to apply at multiple FL programs and see what happens. I'm honestly not expecting to get in anywhere my first cycle, I'm fully content taking a gap year (or more) and building my app more.

 

[neurom]

Totally fine to have a clear goal and to work hard towards it!

From personal experience, I consider UF and FSU as top tier clinical psych PhD programs in our field (but not sure if they are good fits for neuro-focused folks). I think I saw some data from a number of years ago that UF receives something like 100 applications for every spot they offer.

A quick google says there are also clinical programs at UCF and FIT PsyD (not sure if they offer funding), plus some counseling psych programs across the state which likely won't be a good fit for neuro-focused students.

I'd stay away from Carlos Albizu and Nova SE PsyDs because beyond the self-pay costs, I've seen enough internship applications from these programs to not recommend them.

I'm also open to focusing more on peds than neuro, I'm just very interested in the pediatric side of psychology or even young adults. Neuropsych is really fascinating, but if there is a larger program for peds I would be content working in that field I believe. I'm not really interested in PsyD programs because I want to have experience in research, and from what I understand PsyD programs have a bigger focus on clinical work. Also, I'm looking for a program that is funded because I couldn't afford it otherwise. Thanks a lot!

 

[neurom]

Courses in linear algebra and calculus would set you apart if you are interested in having a research career. For clinical work though, it's fine to just do the requirements and stay involved in a lab. I know more about UF's counseling program than their clinical, but my experience is that research lab work is a pretty solid pipeline into graduate study.

I have a question about this. Would it be beneficial to take up to calc 1 or 2? I wouldn't be able to work my way up to linear algebra in the time I've got left in undergrad, but I could manage up to calc 2. I had to withdraw from precalculus twice during my time at community college, however, because it was online and very difficult for me. I'm not sure how well I would do in it... don't know if I should take the risk. Would taking additional stats courses not benefit me?
And is there a way to combine clinical work with research..? I have this dream in my head to work a regular psych job in a clinical setting, but be doing research on the side lol. Because I really love research but I don't know the job prospects for research-only work.

 

[R. Matey]

I have a question about this. Would it be beneficial to take up to calc 1 or 2? I wouldn't be able to work my way up to linear algebra in the time I've got left in undergrad, but I could manage up to calc 2. I had to withdraw from precalculus twice during my time at community college, however, because it was online and very difficult for me. I'm not sure how well I would do in it... don't know if I should take the risk. Would taking additional stats courses not benefit me?

A lot of people go through doctoral study in psychology without calculus so I would say it's far from essential, but linear algebra might help you keep up with the advances in the field (read: I didn't take it in college and trying to find the time to study up in postdoc is difficult). Additional stats can't hurt, but you will still need to take quant (stats) courses as a part of your course of study so they may end up being redundant. The spirit behind my last post was more aimed at understanding the how and why behind a given model, which is an opportunity you have in undergrad with courses like college algebra, calc, and linear algebra. I did fairly well in math (I was originally an accounting major), but I still had to do some catch up in grad school to understand how some of the more advanced models worked.

And is there a way to combine clinical work with research..? I have this dream in my head to work a regular psych job in a clinical setting, but be doing research on the side lol. Because I really love research but I don't know the job prospects for research-only work.

This is my dream too. It's possible--mostly in the AMC (medical school) world, but even then, people typically emphasize one over the other. There are other AMC people around here who are more advanced than me so they may be able to help you chart a path.

 

[Dazen]

I second linear algebra if you have space for a “fun” math class!! So much of our statistics are based on matrices that understanding how they work contributes greatly to developing intuitions for stats and knowing how to troubleshoot when things don’t work.

 

[ClinicalABA]

I'm not really interested in PsyD programs because I want to have experience in research, and from what I understand PsyD programs have a bigger focus on clinical work...

Just to clarify, the actual data indicates that Ph.D. students get similar- if not more- clinical experiences as PsyD students, they just also get good research and stats training as well. It's largely a myth that PsyD programs offer MORE clinical training/experiences than Ph.D. programs, often propagated by predatory PsyD programs who want you to believe they offer better/more clinical training. A pure "clinical-scientist" model Ph.D. program may be an exception, but such programs are going to be very transparent about what they are.

Sounds like you're making some good choices regarding the types of programs you will even consider, though as others have mentioned the geographic restriction is going to be a serious hurdle.

 

[neurom]

A lot of people go through doctoral study in psychology without calculus so I would say it's far from essential, but linear algebra might help you keep up with the advances in the field (read: I didn't take it in college and trying to find the time to study up in postdoc is difficult). Additional stats can't hurt, but you will still need to take quant (stats) courses as a part of your course of study so they may end up being redundant. The spirit behind my last post was more aimed at understanding the how and why behind a given model, which is an opportunity you have in undergrad with courses like college algebra, calc, and linear algebra. I did fairly well in math (I was originally an accounting major), but I still had to do some catch up in grad school to understand how some of the more advanced models worked.



This is my dream too. It's possible--mostly in the AMC (medical school) world, but even then, people typically emphasize one over the other. There are other AMC people around here who are more advanced than me so they may be able to help you chart a path.

Thank you so much! Do they not offer a linear algebra course in psych grad programs? And when you take stats in grad school, do they assume that you've taken calculus courses? Or if you haven't, is it a big learning curve?

Just to clarify, the actual data indicates that Ph.D. students get similar- if not more- clinical experiences as PsyD students, they just also get good research and stats training as well. It's largely a myth that PsyD programs offer MORE clinical training/experiences than Ph.D. programs, often propagated by predatory PsyD programs who want you to believe they offer better/more clinical training. A pure "clinical-scientist" model Ph.D. program may be an exception, but such programs are going to be very transparent about what they are.

Sounds like you're making some good choices regarding the types of programs you will even consider, though as others have mentioned the geographic restriction is going to be a serious hurdle.

I appreciate the explanation, thank you. I still really want to go to a PhD program vs. PsyD after doing some of my own research, and that's also most of the programs that are near me anyways.
And sadly, yes I know that the geographic restriction I have is a large hurdle to overcome - I really wish it was not the case but I don't really have any other options unless I'm able to move states after undergrad (and then I would be limited to that state and those close to it). I would apply to Georgia schools too, but I'm in the middle of Florida and that would be a 5 hour drive (same with Miami). Sometimes I really wish I could do a grad program completely online, with the option to join a research lab near me, do clinical work near me, etc... Even if that were offered, I learn much better in-person. Just hoping I don't get stuck taking 5+ gap years trying to get in.

 

[Dazen]

Thank you so much! Do they not offer a linear algebra course in psych grad programs? And when you take stats in grad school, do they assume that you've taken calculus courses? Or if you haven't, is it a big learning curve?

Psych grad programs generally don't offer these more theoretical math classes, although depending on the course and the professor, you might get a bit of exposure to bits and pieces that directly inform the applications you are learning. Grad programs do not assume you've taken calc (multiple people in my program have not) and do not teach anything calc-based in required classes, so you'd be fine without it. More generally, higher level math tends to be grouped into number theory, algebra, geometry, and analysis (although there's debate around these). Algebra, including linear algebra, are way more relevant for the stats we do and way we conceptualize data/numbers than geometry (including calc) so IMO is a better higher level math path to take if you want to take some classes and have the time.

 

[R. Matey]

Psych grad programs generally don't offer these more theoretical math classes, although depending on the course and the professor, you might get a bit of exposure to bits and pieces that directly inform the applications you are learning. Grad programs do not assume you've taken calc (multiple people in my program have not) and do not teach anything calc-based in required classes, so you'd be fine without it. More generally, higher level math tends to be grouped into number theory, algebra, geometry, and analysis (although there's debate around these). Algebra, including linear algebra, are way more relevant for the stats we do and way we conceptualize data/numbers than geometry (including calc) so IMO is a better higher level math path to take if you want to take some classes and have the time.

I think your undergrad career is more recent than mine--can you take linear algebra without calc? I thought you needed Calc 1 and 2. I know the people in the biostats program here have to take calc before linear algebra.

Thank you so much! Do they not offer a linear algebra course in psych grad programs? And when you take stats in grad school, do they assume that you've taken calculus courses? Or if you haven't, is it a big learning curve?

Like I said, probably more important if you want an academic career, but it is far from essential. To learn the basics, you'd be fine without it. Psych is trending more towards ML modeling, which assumes some familiarity with linear algebra. So think about your career goals as you consider your coursework.

 

[Dazen]

I think your undergrad career is more recent than mine--can you take linear algebra without calc? I thought you needed Calc 1 and 2. I know the people in the biostats program here have to take calc before linear algebra.

That's a great point and totally depends. I think for the majority of places, you probably do have to take through multivariable calc before taking linear algebra. We had a more applied class you could take without those prereqs and a proof-based on you could only take after calc. Definitely a good thing to look into at your particular school. You could also try talking your way into a linear algebra class without calc, since knowledge of calc isn't strictly necessary for learning the content, but I've had varying levels of success trying to talk my way into courses without having a prereq (more successful than not, but was refused from a systems engineering class without having taken intro CS despite offering to make my admission to the class contingent on passing the coding quiz week 1 that I'm still a bit salty about lol).