What do you guys think?

[USArmyDoc]

Hey guys,
I have an interview coming up at KCUMB. I was thinking about osteopathic school admissions process. I really like osteopathic medicine but I think there has to be some changes in the process. We are aspiring physicians, none less, and we should be held to pretty high standards. After submitting and going through the process so far, I feel that the following could be a start:

1. Average retakes, do not replace grades.
2. Minimum MCAT for schools should be 24
3. All schools should screen
4. No applicant under a 3.0 overall GPA/BPC should receive a secondary

Am I becoming a number *****? Do you think DO schools could fill their spots with these guidelines. My feeling is that if you are going to be a physician all facets above should be attainable. We are all smart and capable. If you do not nail the MCAT the first time around , well take it again. If you have a GPA below 3.0, go to a post-bac and work your ass off!! This is just a curious post, see what my future colleagues think. I want to see the DO profession to become more competitive & well known. Just my opinion

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[FutureDocDO]

Hey guys,
I have an interview coming up at KCUMB. I was thinking about osteopathic school admissions process. I really like osteopathic medicine but I think there has to be some changes in the process. We are aspiring physicians, none less, and we should be held to pretty high standards. After submitting and going through the process so far, I feel that the following could be a start:

1. Average retakes, do not replace grades.
2. Minimum MCAT for schools should be 24
3. All schools should screen
4. No applicant under a 3.0 overall GPA/BPC should receive a secondary

Am I becoming a number *****? Do you think DO schools could fill their spots with these guidelines. My feeling is that if you are going to be a physician all facets above should be attainable. We are all smart and capable. If you do not nail the MCAT the first time around , well take it again. If you have a GPA below 3.0, go to a post-bac and work your ass off!! This is just a curious post, see what my future colleagues think. I want to see the DO profession to become more competitive well known. Just opinion

You need to turn around and apply MD. DO schools focus on training physicians to treat the entire patient and not the disease. It would make sense for them to decide who to accept based on the entire person not just their numbers, that's for MD schools.

 

[USArmyDoc]

You need to turn around and apply MD. DO schools focus on training physicians to treat the entire patient and not the disease. It would make sense for them to decide who to accept based on the entire person not just their numbers, that's for MD schools.

I am in complete agreement with you. However, there have to be standards. I am sorry but grades are important. Medicine is about hard work as I am sure everyone knows. I don't think it is more than possible for someone to get a 24+ on the MCAT. I am also applying MD to, btw. I hope I didn't offend you.

 

[FutureDocDO]

I am in complete agreement with you. However, there have to be standards. I am sorry but grades are important. Medicine is about hard work as I am sure everyone knows. I don't think it is more than possible for someone to get a 24+ on the MCAT. I am also applying MD to, btw. I hope I didn't offend you.

Nah. We're just exchanging our views. I was glad that you're not offended my mine! Good luck with your application process!

I'd like to add that they do screen. Most requires a minimum GPA of 2.75 for both overall and Science. There are some the require a minimum of 3.0 as well as a 24 MCAT. Although I disagreed with you, Osteopathic schools do see a need to raise their minimum requirements. It will take time as there are not as many competitive applicants per available seats.

 

[medhacker]

I am in complete agreement with you. However, there have to be standards. I am sorry but grades are important. Medicine is about hard work as I am sure everyone knows. I don't think it is more than possible for someone to get a 24+ on the MCAT. I am also applying MD to, btw. I hope I didn't offend you.

Numbers have their importance but not the one I think you think they do. Did you know that Osteopathic physicians have the same or lesser percentage of malpractice actions against them?

If numbers were the determinant factor of how good of a physician one becomes then the malpractice stats should prove it. As it can be seen this is not the case. I am glad osteopathic schools seem to know this.


Therefore, as per your petition regarding osteo. medical school numbers,

Overruled!

 

[dr.z]

Some MD schools even accept MCAT scores less than 24.

 

[USArmyDoc]

Nah. We're just exchanging our views. I was glad that you're not offended my mine! Good luck with your application process!

I'd like to add that they do screen. Most requires a minimum GPA of 2.75 for both overall and Science. There are some the requires a minimum of 3.0 as well as a 24 MCAT. Although I disagreed with you, Osteopathic schools do see a need to raise their minimum requirements. It will take time as there are not as many competitive applicants per available seats.

I actually think we agree more than we disagree. My feeling is that we are all smart and capable. Our admissions standards should be slightly more rigorous than they already are. I didn't suggest make drastic changes to the competition.

 

[91Bravo]

DO schools focus on training physicians to treat the entire patient and not the disease.

You're killing me. Don't let yourself get brainwashed into thinking that DO's have a monopoly on taking a holistic approach to medicine and 'treating the whole patient.' Many medical schools (MD/DO) teach students to focus on preventive medicine and to consider the totality of patient dynamics that go into treating patients.

It would make sense for them to decide who to accept based on the entire person not just their numbers, that's for MD schools.

Is seems as though your school must be an exception. If an applicant has a 3.5 GPA and a 28 MCAT WVSOM will consider immediate acceptance without an interview. Obviously your school does care about "the numbers" and this policy is an attempt to increase the average scores for matriculated students.

Overall, I think it's too early in your medical career to take on an ill-conceived, anti-allopathic attitude. I'm holding up my end of the deal with respect to DO/MD civility. I'm only a month into school and I've already defended osteopathy on a couple of occasions in discussions with fellow allopathic students.

FYI....just in case some people feel a need to blast me for any underlying anti-osteopathic feelings I may harbor, I want to make it known that I love DO's, understand the value of OMM, and I applied to more osteopathic schools than allopathic schools.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

i don't like strict standards because there are always going to be exceptional candidates with another other pluses to overrule a low mcat or gpa. as someone else pointed out, even top allopathic schools occasionally acccept applications with low mcats and gpas. however, i am worried by the fact that new osteopathic schools are popping up every day and other schools are rapidly expanding. do they really have enough qualified applicants to fill all the new slots? if you look at the aacom's data, you'll see that there's been an overall decline in the mcat averages of matriculating students at osteopathic schools, and i think that must be directly related to all these new slots.

honestly, i'm going to be worried if the average mcat in a few years is below 24 coupled with a gpa hovering around 3.0. however, if things keep up as they're going, that might happen.

 

[USArmyDoc]

i don't like strict standards because there are always going to be exceptional candidates with another other pluses to overrule a low mcat or gpa. as someone else pointed out, even top allopathic schools occasionally acccept applications with low mcats and gpas. however, i am worried by the fact that new osteopathic schools are popping up every day and other schools are rapidly expanding. do they really have enough qualified applicants to fill all the new slots? if you look at the aacom's data, you'll see that there's been an overall decline in the mcat averages of matriculating students at osteopathic schools, and i think that must be directly related to all these new slots.

honestly, i'm going to be worried if the average mcat in a few years is below 24 coupled with a gpa hovering around 3.0. however, if things keep up as they're going, that might happen.

Exactly my point. I think everyone has brought up some good ideas. I was just suggesting. I know there will always be exceptions. Good discussion guys!!

 

[Presadog]

Who's to say the guy with the 3.0GPA and working fulltime as a Cardiac Tech isn't busting his ass as hard or even harder than the kid away for college?

 

[JonnyG]

You do realize that almost every medical school only requires you to know 65-70% of all the material including anatomy. Who cares where the Heart is or what it does, I know where to find the tubercle of lister.

 

[FutureDocDO]

You do realize that almost every medical school only requires you to know 65-70% of all the material including anatomy. Who cares where the Heart is or what it does, I know where to find the tubercle of lister.

...and once you're a doctor, 5+ years out of medical school, you will remember even less of what you've learned.

 

[libo1369]

I think as DO's gain in popularity in coming years as they have been the schools will be able to "raise the bar". I believe as the "new" kids on the block sort of speak the DO school community had to find some way to enroll a satisfactory number of students and keeping the scores at that level at that time helped to do that. Just my 2cents.

 

[Raven Feather]

I personally believe that the GPA should be given more weight than the MCAT for all schools, it is statistically proven that those of disadvantaged background generally score lower on standardized tests such as SAT/ACT/MCAT/GRE and that needs to be accounted for. There are multiple factors that contribute to this that cannot be compared to the more "affluent" applicant.

 

[drtongue_danger]

Hey guys,
I have an interview coming up at KCUMB. I was thinking about osteopathic school admissions process. I really like osteopathic medicine but I think there has to be some changes in the process. We are aspiring physicians, none less, and we should be held to pretty high standards. After submitting and going through the process so far, I feel that the following could be a start:

1. Average retakes, do not replace grades.
2. Minimum MCAT for schools should be 24
3. All schools should screen
4. No applicant under a 3.0 overall GPA/BPC should receive a secondary

Am I becoming a number *****? Do you think DO schools could fill their spots with these guidelines. My feeling is that if you are going to be a physician all facets above should be attainable. We are all smart and capable. If you do not nail the MCAT the first time around , well take it again. If you have a GPA below 3.0, go to a post-bac and work your ass off!! This is just a curious post, see what my future colleagues think. I want to see the DO profession to become more competitive well known. Just opinion

I agree that DO schools should have high admissions guidelines, however I don't think that we need to be a "number *****". Can anyone show a report or a study showing that DO under perform when compared to MD? The insurances industy seems to think that we can do as good of a job. Look up job posting for ER, family practice and IM, they all say that any board certified MD or DO. Mcat and GPA are important but not the end all and be all. DO school have figured out that you don’t need a 33 or even a 24 on your mcat to be a great doctor.

 

[daveyjwin]

I think that what is going to make one person a good doctor compared to another is not dependant on GPA. I know some people who are less than bright, take the easy forms of the required classes, and get 3.5. I know smart people who take all the hard classes they can, and barely pull off a 3.0 (of which I am one).

On a school to school basis, schools across the country have problems with "grade inflation." Individually, GPA doesn't reflect the fact that some people take harder classes. And at my school, it seems that much of your grade in basic science courses such as Organic Chemitry depends on your professors.

That's why I like the MCAT, which is a standard knowledge indicator, and think it should be weighted more than GPA. With GPA, there are many different factors that determine how high it is. With the MCAT, there are relatively few, making itmore stable and more predictable.

IMHO...

 

[USArmyDoc]

I think that what is going to make one person a good doctor compared to another is not dependant on GPA. I know some people who are less than bright, take the easy forms of the required classes, and get 3.5. I know smart people who take all the hard classes they can, and barely pull off a 3.0 (of which I am one).

On a school to school basis, schools across the country have problems with "grade inflation." Individually, GPA doesn't reflect the fact that some people take harder classes. And at my school, it seems that much of your grade in basic science courses such as Organic Chemitry depends on your professors.

That's why I like the MCAT, which is a standard knowledge indicator, and think it should be weighted more than GPA. With GPA, there are many different factors that determine how high it is. With the MCAT, there are relatively few, making itmore stable and more predictable.

IMHO...

I think this is a valid issue and should be addressed. I, for one, think there should be a raise in the standards. However, I think the application should be intensely studied. If a person has an overall GPA of 2.9 but the last three years he/she has had a 3.5, they should be considered. I also agree that once in medical school, MD's and DO's are both trained exceptionally well. I am not talking training, I am addressing admissions standards.

 

[bkpa2med]

All I can say is that WE are the future. It will be all up to us and hopefully as time progresses we can optimally configure this situation. DO's all the way!

 

[Raven Feather]

I think that what is going to make one person a good doctor compared to another is not dependant on GPA. I know some people who are less than bright, take the easy forms of the required classes, and get 3.5. I know smart people who take all the hard classes they can, and barely pull off a 3.0 (of which I am one).

On a school to school basis, schools across the country have problems with "grade inflation." Individually, GPA doesn't reflect the fact that some people take harder classes. And at my school, it seems that much of your grade in basic science courses such as Organic Chemitry depends on your professors.

That's why I like the MCAT, which is a standard knowledge indicator, and think it should be weighted more than GPA. With GPA, there are many different factors that determine how high it is. With the MCAT, there are relatively few, making itmore stable and more predictable.

IMHO...

Good argument/point regarding the GPA. But I do not view the MCAT as a knowledge indicator, really--if that were true, I believe I would have done way better than I did. I know a doc, who told me that med school is memorizing butt loads of info and regurgitating on tests--one doesn't have to be extremely smart to have a good memory.

Of course, difficulty of courses should be considered when looking at GPAs. But honestly, I think ochem, biochem and all that wouldn't particularly easy at any undergraduate institution. Getting say an, "A", in a course does require some amount good work ethic.

I dunno it is a difficult call to make it more fair in addition to more competitive.

 

[ambernikel]

Numbers have their importance but not the one I think you think they do. Did you know that Osteopathic physicians have the same or lesser percentage of malpractice actions against them?

If numbers were the determinant factor of how good of a physician one becomes then the malpractice stats should prove it. As it can be seen this is not the case. I am glad osteopathic schools seem to know this.


Therefore, as per your petition regarding osteo. medical school numbers,

Overruled!

My firsthand experience seriously shows to me that there is no difference between the skills of MD vs DO. Just because a person scores well on tests or has a good gpa doesn't mean they'll be good docs. I agree there has to be minimums. But I think they do a good job of screening beyond scores.
GPAs are not indicative of much in my opinion. A lot of our honors students with super high gpa's cheat to stay in their honors program and get their scholarships. I personally have never been an honors student. My gpa sucks because I flunked freshman orientation and intro to human communications. Then I woke up and realized there was more to life than being a loser. Now I make A's (higher scores than the honor students) in really hard classes. Funny how things change. I also think that because I had my time where I didn't know what I was doing, I am a lot more focused. They aren't mistakes if you learn from them.

 

[USArmyDoc]

My firsthand experience seriously shows to me that there is no difference between the skills of MD vs DO. Just because a person scores well on tests or has a good gpa doesn't mean they'll be good docs. I agree there has to be minimums. But I think they do a good job of screening beyond scores.
GPAs are not indicative of much in my opinion. A lot of our honors students with super high gpa's cheat to stay in their honors program and get their scholarships. I personally have never been an honors student. My gpa sucks because I flunked freshman orientation and intro to human communications. Then I woke up and realized there was more to life than being a loser. Now I make A's (higher scores than the honor students) in really hard classes. Funny how things change. I also think that because I had my time where I didn't know what I was doing, I am a lot more focused. They aren't mistakes if you learn from them.

With all due respect, this is not a MD vs. DO thread. The topic of this thread is to discuss admissions standards of osteopathic schools. In no way am I suggesting that high admission standards equate to good physicians. However, I wanted to see what future DO's felt about the standards of osteopathic schools. Do you feel it is to low or are they just perfect? As I have stated before, I believe they are slightly to low. Just my .02 cents though. Good Luck guys!!

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

You need to turn around and apply MD. DO schools focus on training physicians to treat the entire patient and not the disease. It would make sense for them to decide who to accept based on the entire person not just their numbers, that's for MD schools.

wow, you swallowed the DO propaganda hook, line.....and sinker.

 

[USArmyDoc]

wow, you swallowed the DO propaganda hook, line.....and sinker.

I wouldn't be that harsh..lol. I think there is some truth to the above statement.

 

[supersash]

GPAs are not indicative of much in my opinion. A lot of our honors students with super high gpa's cheat to stay in their honors program and get their scholarships. I personally have never been an honors student. My gpa sucks because I flunked freshman orientation and intro to human communications. Then I woke up and realized there was more to life than being a loser. Now I make A's (higher scores than the honor students) in really hard classes. Funny how things change. I also think that because I had my time where I didn't know what I was doing, I am a lot more focused. They aren't mistakes if you learn from them.

and i thought the cheating honor students were only at my school!

as much as i can agree that the MCAT is only one day, and your GPA is your academic career, its an issue like this that makes me think MCAT scores can be more important. having not taken the MCAT's yet, i am not 100% sure, but i am pretty sure it wouldnt be too easy to cheat, so at least it is truly testing what you know. of course there also people who dont test well, but it seems to me that someone with a super high GPA, and a low MCAT, is one of those honors cheaters. UGH, i would much rather do poor on a test than cheat.

it goes both ways, but thats just my 2 cents

 

[juiceman311]

I am in complete agreement with you. However, there have to be standards. I am sorry but grades are important. Medicine is about hard work as I am sure everyone knows. I don't think it is more than possible for someone to get a 24+ on the MCAT. I am also applying MD to, btw. I hope I didn't offend you.

I'll go ahead and disagree with you, regardless of MD or DO, you can't just look at someones grades and be like oh he only has a 3.3 he doesn't work hard, or a 3.0 or whatever. I goto Georgia Tech, the average GPA in the college of engineering a 2.6; graduating with honors is a 3.15, highest honors (top5%) is a 3.55. To just look at a number and dismiss it without looking deeper would be throwing a lot of hard-working and potentially excellent physicians away unjustly. I think that I have learned more and worked harder than most people who have 3.6+'s at most other state schools, like UGA for example. This can be argued of course, probably by someone who got rejected from Tech and goes to UGA (rivalry?), but it is mostly true. Sorry, this was a bit of a rant as it's extremely frustrating to have numbers well below the average for med schools and be viewed as 'lazy' by the medical school prespective. Also, I only used GT as an example because I go there, there are PLENTY of schools like GT that are not necessarily known for an extremely skin-peeling ciricullum nationwide.

 

[USArmyDoc]

I'll go ahead and disagree with you, regardless of MD or DO, you can't just look at someones grades and be like oh he only has a 3.3 he doesn't work hard, or a 3.0 or whatever. I goto Georgia Tech, the average GPA in the college of engineering a 2.6; graduating with honors is a 3.15, highest honors (top5%) is a 3.55. To just look at a number and dismiss it without looking deeper would be throwing a lot of hard-working and potentially excellent physicians away unjustly. I think that I have learned more and worked harder than most people who have 3.6+'s at most other state schools, like UGA for example. This can be argued of course, probably by someone who got rejected from Tech and goes to UGA (rivalry?), but it is mostly true. Sorry, this was a bit of a rant as it's extremely frustrating to have numbers well below the average for med schools and be viewed as 'lazy' by the medical school prespective. Also, I only used GT as an example because I go there, there are PLENTY of schools like GT that are not necessarily known for an extremely skin-peeling ciricullum nationwide.

I have no doubt that your major is tough and I am sure you would make a great physician. However, if they must distinguish between applicants I bet they would choose the one with the highest scores. It sounds like picking the major at your school is medical school suicide. Something to consider when you decide to pick your area of study....

 

[Hoberto]

I think there should be standards but I'm not sure how to define them. Right now we have MCATs and GPAs but there are so many variables that can affect these numbers. Most, if not all, of these variables have been mentioned: disadvantaged background, socioeconomic status, drive, major, undergraduate/graduate/post-bach institution, grade inflation and even cheating.

So, the question becomes how does a school combine all of these variables to create some useful expression to decide who will become a good doctor?

Furthermore, are schools looking to create good doctors or doctors that will have high pass rates and numbers?

I think the vast majority of schools are just trying to make money.

 

[juiceman311]

I have no doubt that your major is tough and I am sure you would make a great physician. However, if they must distinguish between applicants I bet they would choose the one with the highest scores. It sounds like picking the major at your school is medical school suicide. Something to consider when you decide to pick your area of study....

Going to GT is medical school suicide in general, something I didn't consider when accepting GT over UGA (my parents said they'd buy me a new car if I went to GT over UGA, I was like sweet...).

I was a Chem major at first, but straight science is really boring to me. I enjoy BME, but it's a lot of work. In the end, when I get accepted to a med school, I think I'll be miles ahead of my peers since I've been primed for the hard work already. One of my friends goes to Medical College of Georgia now and was a BME at GT as well, and says that so far med school has been a joke compared to GT. A family friend of mine had a sister goto GT and is now in Stanford med as an M4, and she said med school is easy compared to GT as well...so, I guess I'm thankful for that. I just need to get in somewhere, anywhere

 

[Hoberto]

Going to GT is medical school suicide in general, something I didn't consider when accepting GT over UGA (my parents said they'd buy me a new car if I went to GT over UGA, I was like sweet...).

I was a Chem major at first, but straight science is really boring to me. I enjoy BME, but it's a lot of work. In the end, when I get accepted to a med school, I think I'll be miles ahead of my peers since I've been primed for the hard work already. One of my friends goes to Medical College of Georgia now and was a BME at GT as well, and says that so far med school has been a joke compared to GT. A family friend of mine had a sister goto GT and is now in Stanford med as an M4, and she said med school is easy compared to GT as well...so, I guess I'm thankful for that. I just need to get in somewhere, anywhere

I am also an engineer graduate (BME and ChemE (MS..done in May)) and have also heard that med school is cake compared to engineering. I have trouble believing this because med school is all about memorizing (from what I've heard) and engineering is all about problem-solving. For me, the engineering/math classes were the easiest to get good grades in and the memorizing classes, like Biology, were tough. Engineering required a lot of work but once I knew the concepts and the math I knew it, particularly since the info was used over and over within a single class and across a broad range of classes. With something like memorizing hormone pathways one has to sit down and memorize. Then, after the test the pathways are history and a new set of stuff has to be memorized. Remembering material from this type of class has always been more difficult for me, because I could just attend class, do homework and be assured of at least an A or a B, so I never really read the book or worked to memorize every little detail. This was true for some of my engr friends, too.

In med school studying and memorizing and being able to regurgitate the info months and maybe years later will be a requirement. I'm not sure that engineers are trained for that. There is a lot of anecdotal info but I wonder if anyone has any hard data regarding how pre-medical education and experience relate to board scores and pass rates.

 

[USArmyDoc]

Going to GT is medical school suicide in general, something I didn't consider when accepting GT over UGA (my parents said they'd buy me a new car if I went to GT over UGA, I was like sweet...).

I was a Chem major at first, but straight science is really boring to me. I enjoy BME, but it's a lot of work. In the end, when I get accepted to a med school, I think I'll be miles ahead of my peers since I've been primed for the hard work already. One of my friends goes to Medical College of Georgia now and was a BME at GT as well, and says that so far med school has been a joke compared to GT. A family friend of mine had a sister goto GT and is now in Stanford med as an M4, and she said med school is easy compared to GT as well...so, I guess I'm thankful for that. I just need to get in somewhere, anywhere

I agree with you. However, you know that getting into medical school is hard enough. Why make it harder on yourself?

 

[Raven Feather]

and i thought the cheating honor students were only at my school!

as much as i can agree that the MCAT is only one day, and your GPA is your academic career, its an issue like this that makes me think MCAT scores can be more important. having not taken the MCAT's yet, i am not 100% sure, but i am pretty sure it wouldnt be too easy to cheat, so at least it is truly testing what you know. of course there also people who dont test well, but it seems to me that someone with a super high GPA, and a low MCAT, is one of those honors cheaters. UGH, i would much rather do poor on a test than cheat.

it goes both ways, but thats just my 2 cents

A very minimal portion of the test, tests "what you know"--you will know what I am talking about when you take the test.

I am one of those honor students who NEVER cheated and didn't do so hot on the MCAT, of course, I am from a disadvantaged background which I think may have contributed somewhat to it.

 

[juiceman311]

I agree with you. However, you know that getting into medical school is hard enough. Why make it harder on yourself?

I really had no clue what the med school process was 2 or 3 years ago. I didn't have many friends at school (I hated it there my first 2 years and avoided being there), so I had no one to talk to about pre-med stuff. Regardless, our pre-med advisement was/is horrendous, so I had no where reliable to go with questions. Before my 3rd year I went to my pre-med advisor and asked him several questions...he had no clue, he pretty much just pointed me to the aamc website and told me to search the web for answers. I didn't know what a science GPA was (and had I known, I would have definitely worked A LOT harder than I did...if there is one single thing that will be my downfall, it's my science GPA...barely a 3.0). Anyways...yeah, the blame is on me for not finding out sooner, since I've ALWAYS wanted to become a doctor. If I could do it over again, I'd probably major in Biology and minor in Biomedical Engineering.