What do you hate most about the pre-med process?

[coffeeandcodeine]

My least favorite part is the lack of forgiveness towards failures that occur early on in the process. I had a pretty disastrous first year of college, and spent the rest of my college career working twice as hard to compensate for it. My naive 18-year-old self really screwed it up, forcing my 20-22 year old self to maintain a near-perfect GPA for the rest of my undergrad years. I know a number of people who went through the same thing, and it's tough to experience such a big setback early on in the process (possibly before you realize you even want to go into medicine) and discover that it might have a huge impact on your future career prospects. This is definitely not exclusive to medicine, but it is a byproduct of the heavy focus on numbers.

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[Endoxifen]

You can't have this without increasing residency slots.

House republicans passed legislation to repeal Obamacare today. Not to get political, but if they're successful, maybe they'll compensate by increasing funding for residencies *fingers crossed*

 

[Endoxifen]

My least favorite part is the lack of forgiveness towards failures that occur early on in the process. I had a pretty disastrous first year of college, and spent the rest of my college career working twice as hard to compensate for it. My naive 18-year-old self really screwed it up, forcing my 20-22 year old self to maintain a near-perfect GPA for the rest of my undergrad years. I know a number of people who went through the same thing, and it's tough to experience such a big setback early on in the process (possibly before you realize you even want to go into medicine) and discover that it might have a huge impact on your future career prospects. This is definitely not exclusive to medicine, but it is a byproduct of the heavy focus on numbers.

I was blessed to have taken ochem while I was in high school. I learned those hard lessons in an isolated setting rather than during a full college semester. I'm glad that you were ultimately successful though. Congratulations!

 

[efle]

If that was done for the MCAT the result would be Top 20 schools not be able to distinguish themselves through their higher stats.

People knew the Top X were the Top X before the MCAT score medians started shooting up to the top couple percent. Harvard and Stanford and Hopkins were prestigious ten years ago, even tho their MCATs were 32-33.

But the people getting the higher percentile did BETTER, so if a school has the ability to accept better students, why not? Just because someone can succeed doesn't mean the should get equal consideration with somebody who did better than them.

What makes doing better on the MCAT = more worthy of consideration? If I say we should pick the people that had the best all-other (that is, non-science) GPAs instead, that's still selecting by some metric where someone did better, but it doesn't seem to make much sense. I view the upper end of the MCAT similarly. Having a 34 vs 40 I don't see as more worthy of considering making a physician.

 

[efle]

House republicans passed legislation to repeal Obamacare today. Not to get political, but if they're successful, maybe they'll compensate by increasing funding for residencies *fingers crossed*

It will never clear the Senate in anything resembling its current form

 

[Goro]

House republicans passed legislation to repeal Obamacare today. Not to get political, but if they're successful, maybe they'll compensate by increasing funding for residencies *fingers crossed*

Highly doubtful. The House will cry "No!! Deficits!", unless it has anything to do with military spending.

 

[efle]

Highly doubtful. The House will cry "No!! Deficits!", unless it has anything to do with military spending.

Or subsidizing "clean" coal, lmao

 

[DOCzilla15]

Yes, this is perhaps true in the technical sense of life-saving. However, what about the lives of the applicants? Don't we deserve to be valued slightly more than test scores?

It's not necessarily the high GPA I have a problem with. Like you mentioned, maintaining a decent GPA isn't that hard if you put some effort it. It's more the outrageous MCAT scores required just to be considered, let alone accepted. Some people are just poor test takers. Does this mean they won't be good physicians? I don't think so. I just think the application review should be more holistic. Expecting a student to score in the 84th percentile of an exam just to consider them for admission seems too high, in my opinion.

Well, from my experience last cycle schools do review you pretty holistically (depending on the school). However, the mcat does not test test taking ability that was the ACT in high school. The MCAT tests your ability to triage which is crucial as a physician and your ability to to recall pertinent information and apply it to a case (much like diagnosis and treatment avenues of a patient). As to the high scores needed, this doesn't come from the exam or schools this is a result of the competitiveness of your fellow applicants. If 2 people have great ecs and comparable GPAs but one has a superior mcat it's clear which student wouldn't be getting the seat.

 

[DOCzilla15]

I took a large number of classes in a hard science for a first major and soft science/humanities for a second major. The latter was so much easier it's hard to compare them. A system that favors a 3.8+ GPA the same in any major is inviting people to take a bunch of easy fluff requiring little brainpower and only moderate effort to memorize some stuff, imo.

As for the MCAT, I think it often fails as a yardstick for GPA. Look at the variance between universities as well as within the GPA cohorts. The WashU 3.2-3.4 bin scores high (top 10%) at a higher rate than the national 3.8-4.0 bin does. I know the snooty private med schools tend to give some prestige points, but it certainly isn't enough to make a 3.3/33 competitive like a 3.9/33. And, a third of the national 3.8-4.0 bin, despite being supposedly hard working and capable, scores in the 20s and below.

The way med schools tend to view GPAs - what you study doesn't matter, and where you studied matters a little or none - just isn't an approach that is going to capture who is brilliant and hard working vs who isn't. And the kid who challenges themselves with a tough course-load at a tough university and then does well on the MCAT is not rescued by the score enough for that to be a good route. The person who played the low-difficulty game and gets the same MCAT wins that every time.

Pre-req GPA

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

ADCOMS TAKE NOTES FROM THIS THREAD FOR THE LOVE OF CHRIST

 

[efle]

Pre-req GPA

For the future you mean, to help standardize things? Or you mean the current way admissions is done? Cuz currently I'd be surprised if many places even bothered to calculate a prereq GPA separate from sGPA, and I'd be even more surprised to hear that a strong prereq GPA would overcome a low overall GPA

 

[altblue]

How difficult it is to track down shadowing opportunities. The shadowing itself is dope.

 

[DaWeasel]

House republicans passed legislation to repeal Obamacare today. Not to get political, but if they're successful, maybe they'll compensate by increasing funding for residencies *fingers crossed*

Why would anyone who is already committed to medicine want more residency slots? Plenty of other job markets have been ruined because the markets flood with graduates. The high barrier to entry is a perk for competive applicants and anyone already in the field

 

[Endoxifen]

Why would anyone who is already committed to medicine want more residency slots? Plenty of other job markets have been ruined because the markets flood with graduates. The high barrier to entry is a perk for competive applicants and anyone already in the field

It's not really for the doctors. It's to help with the doctor shortage which may get much worse in the next two decades.

 

[Pusheen]

The one thing that really bothered me was the profound amount of disrespect you are subjected to in the application process. Some schools are great but some definitely left me more cynical. I didn't mind actually being a pre-med student. A lot of it is hard but it should be. I enjoyed most of my extracurriculars.

This. Some schools were just flat out rude, unresponsive, and unhelpful. I understand that they get inundated with inquiries, but students who have paid $100 to have their application considered deserve to be treated with common courtesy.
One school told me to contact them to schedule my interview, I called and asked what months were available as my full time job schedule varies by month, they very curtly said that they could not predict the month that I would get and that medical school is more important than my job anyway. Is that really necessary?
*end rant*

 

[mwsapphire]

My least favorite part is the lack of forgiveness towards failures that occur early on in the process. I had a pretty disastrous first year of college, and spent the rest of my college career working twice as hard to compensate for it. My naive 18-year-old self really screwed it up, forcing my 20-22 year old self to maintain a near-perfect GPA for the rest of my undergrad years. I know a number of people who went through the same thing, and it's tough to experience such a big setback early on in the process (possibly before you realize you even want to go into medicine) and discover that it might have a huge impact on your future career prospects. This is definitely not exclusive to medicine, but it is a byproduct of the heavy focus on numbers.

Wait a second.
I thought earlier issues were overlooked in favor of doing better later on? If you had a 3.8+ your last two years, a 3.3 from the first year shouldn't mean as much?
Especially if you went to a HYP UGrad ( which you did, iirc)I mean, you're better off having a high overall, but I thought it wasnt supposed to be lethal to not do perfect from the very beginning.
Also, Pusheen, was that school Goergetown? XD

 

[newkidontheblock79]

The length of the cycle itself. Wish there was a deadline that schools had to let students know about decisions by, rather than having them wait up to an entire year to hear back about a decision.

 

[Pusheen]

Wait a second.
I thought earlier issues were overlooked in favor of doing better later on? If you had a 3.8+ your last two years, a 3.3 from the first year shouldn't mean as much?
Especially if you went to a HYP UGrad ( which you did, iirc)I mean, you're better off having a high overall, but I thought it wasnt supposed to be lethal to not do perfect from the very beginning.
Also, Pusheen, was that school Goergetown? XD

I knew someone would ask that
Sadly, it was not

 

[Goro]

Why would anyone who is already committed to medicine want more residency slots? Plenty of other job markets have been ruined because the markets flood with graduates. The high barrier to entry is a perk for competive applicants and anyone already in the field

Medicine is heading this way as more schools open but residencies don't increase. That means unemployed MDs and DOs. The ABA doesn't care about this in Law, but you guys should in Medicine. With a maldistribution of doctors in this country, we're glutted with doctors like we are with lawyers. Hell, we have 5% of the world's population, but 50% of the lawyers!

 

[DoctorofMedicine]

The uncertainty

 

[DoctorofMedicine]

Medicine is heading this way as more schools open but residencies don't increase. That means unemployed MDs and DOs. The ABA doesn't care about this in Law, but you guys should in Medicine. With a maldistribution of doctors in this country, we're glutted with doctors like we are with lawyers. Hell, we have 5% of the world's population, but 50% of the lawyers!

My mom's friends son went to the carribean and now he's 300k in debt, he failed STEP 1 the first time but passed the second. I don''t know why he's having a hard time finding a job.

 

[Goro]

My mom's friends son went to the carribean and now he's 300k in debt, he failed STEP 1 the first time but passed the second. I don''t know why he's having a hard time finding a job.

IMG...totally separate issue, discussed in multiple other threads. But we've derailed the thread enough. Back to you, SDNers.

 

[mwsapphire]

My least favorite part is the lack of forgiveness towards failures that occur early on in the process. I had a pretty disastrous first year of college, and spent the rest of my college career working twice as hard to compensate for it. My naive 18-year-old self really screwed it up, forcing my 20-22 year old self to maintain a near-perfect GPA for the rest of my undergrad years. I know a number of people who went through the same thing, and it's tough to experience such a big setback early on in the process (possibly before you realize you even want to go into medicine) and discover that it might have a huge impact on your future career prospects. This is definitely not exclusive to medicine, but it is a byproduct of the heavy focus on numbers.

@Goro, what about this? I thought it wasn't totally true.

 

[Goro]

Goro, what about what coffeeandcodiene said? I was always under the impression that that isn't totally true?

There are MD schools that reward reinvention. State schools tend to be the leading practitioners, but there are privates as well, and some them are Top Schools, like Vandy , Dartmouth, Case, Duke and Columbia.

But some schools obviously feel that they have so many candidates with stellar records all the way through UG, that they can afford to turn their noses up at mere mortals.

 

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

I hate it when research labs and hospitals tell you everything you'll get to do but when you actually join you end up doing menial stuff. I know it's not exactly related but it's disgusting how much advantage is taken of pre med students.

 

[Saifa]

Highly doubtful. The House will cry "No!! Deficits!", unless it has anything to do with military spending.

@Goro you are my hero.

The worst part about being a pre-med is listening to non-medical people lecture me on how much medicine sucks now because "they're trying to let in too many women and foreigners." Ok guy.

 

[DOCzilla15]

For the future you mean, to help standardize things? Or you mean the current way admissions is done? Cuz currently I'd be surprised if many places even bothered to calculate a prereq GPA separate from sGPA, and I'd be even more surprised to hear that a strong prereq GPA would overcome a low overall GPA

During one of my interviews my pre-req gpa which I didn't even know myself was brought up so even if we aren't privy to it some schools are looking at these things.

 

[Knicks17]

ORGO 2 period. I think I had a couple of new reactions happening in my brain this semester

 

[Dr. Stalker]

The fact that we're reduced to numbers. We do all these ECs (albeit to pad our resumes), but at the end of the day, it comes down to mainly your MCAT and GPA.

 

[Endoxifen]

The fact that we're reduced to numbers. We do all these ECs (albeit to pad our resumes), but at the end of the day, it comes down to mainly your MCAT and GPA.

GPA and MCAT open the door. ECs let you walk through it.

 

[coffeeandcodeine]

Wait a second.
I thought earlier issues were overlooked in favor of doing better later on? If you had a 3.8+ your last two years, a 3.3 from the first year shouldn't mean as much?
Especially if you went to a HYP UGrad ( which you did, iirc)I mean, you're better off having a high overall, but I thought it wasnt supposed to be lethal to not do perfect from the very beginning.
Also, Pusheen, was that school Goergetown? XD

Yeah, I managed to rescue it, but I had to keep a 3.95+ for most of my remaining undergrad semesters to salvage the cGPA. That was partially because I jumped into my freshman year with enthusiasm and took too many credits. It would have made life in undergrad much easier and more enjoyable if I had learned how to manage my classes from the beginning.

There is a certain amount of forgiveness towards a slow start to your undergrad career, but generally only if you get your cGPA up to something reasonable, which is quite difficult to do if you screw up a year's worth of grades. In my case, even if I had maintained a 3.8 for my remaining semesters, my GPA would still almost certainly have been too low to apply to the schools I ended up getting accepted to, although it would have been enough for an acceptance somewhere. I'm not saying that if you screw up, you're beyond redemption, but rather highlighting that redemption is pretty darn difficult.

Edit: I want to emphasize to anyone who had a bad first year that I absolutely don't mean to imply you can't turn it around. It's just tough starting off at a disadvantage when the people you are competing with often have perfect academic records from the beginning. Upward trends are great, but they will never trump an excellent overall cGPA and sGPA.

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

@Goro before you leave. Can you explain why GPA is looked at so closely instead of individual person's schoolwork classes? Why is a biology major who took a few comp sci classes for fun and got B's in them punished for it, compared to a Bio major who took the minimum amount of credits needed to graduate?

 

[getAsordietrying]

Giving up who you are for what you want to become.

I made sure I had little fun activities and self-enjoyment during college to make sure I can excel academically and through my ECs. Fast forward to junior year now, I started off first year strong with a good GPA, had some issues sophomore year for a quarter that slightly tanked my grades and now I am diabolically doing whatever it takes to pull my GPA back up to median scores. My ECs are good, not great, and I never made time to have a relationship and have a dozen or so small time fun experiences to date that I can reflect on after graduation. Have stayed and will stay every single summer between college trying to help my GPA while being shamed by my family for not spending time with them.

C'est la vie

 

[JimmyJimJim]

Here's the issue: the game is not designed to identify hard-working, brilliant students and reward them, it's built to identify and reward high GPAs. These can be very different things, imo.

Good gravy, don't tell me that rigor of study counts for nothing.

 

[Lucca]

@Goro before you leave. Can you explain why GPA is looked at so closely instead of individual person's schoolwork classes? Why is a biology major who took a few comp sci classes for fun and got B's in them punished for it, compared to a Bio major who took the minimum amount of credits needed to graduate?

The alternative world where everyone is scrutinized for every class they take is 100 times worse than the world where GPA is heavily weighted. The bad part about the admissions process is that it is too granular and focused on academic minutiae, not the other way around.

 

[efle]

Good gravy, don't tell me that rigor of study counts for nothing.

It counts for nothing.

 

[Geo16]

ADCOMS TAKE NOTES FROM THIS THREAD FOR THE LOVE OF CHRIST

Yes, discard MD, let's all call medical doctors DO!!!!

 

[Goro]

@Goro before you leave. Can you explain why GPA is looked at so closely instead of individual person's schoolwork classes? Why is a biology major who took a few comp sci classes for fun and got B's in them punished for it, compared to a Bio major who took the minimum amount of credits needed to graduate?

You're focusing on one metric; you have to look at the entire app.

A more ruthless way to look at it is: OK, you took some stuff for fun. Fine. But you didn't do as well as your should have and could have. Med school is going to be a LOT harder than anything you're taking in UG.

You are also falling for the "basket weaving major" scenario. My Bio major required 30 hrs of Biology + two years of Chemistry + 1 year of Physics + 1 year of math. One still has to do well in that, and all other coursework.

And two Bs are going to kill anyone. Two Fs aren't going to kill anyone, as long as all other coursework is fine. If this isn't good enough for Harvard/Stanford, well, ask them. It's OK at my school and a lot of others.

 

[JimmyJimJim]

It counts for nothing.

Well, no use worrying about it now. If I let that deter me I guess I wouldn't deserve to be a doctor. Back to the books then.

 

[leagueofDravenMD]

2 semesters of english really f*** me out of applying to some schools.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[efle]

2 semesters of english really f*** me out of applying to some schools.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Many schools will allow you to use other writing-heavy courses in lieu of English semesters (for example philosophy classes)

 

[Dr. Stalker]

GPA and MCAT open the door. ECs let you walk through it.

No they don't. ECs, interview report, and a final review of MCAT and GPA get you admitted.

 

[OchemOficionado]

The amount of money this process requires this truly isn't a process for the poor.

 

[Endoxifen]

.

 

[Spr1ngrolls]

The MCAT. Maybe it's cause i'm going through it now, but every other part of working towards med school has actually been manageable and/or gratifying. The MCAT? No. Just no. Should probably also note that standardized testing has just always irked my soul to its core

 

[Lucca]

The MCAT. Maybe it's cause i'm going through it now, but every other part of working towards med school has actually been manageable and/or gratifying. The MCAT? No. Just no. Should probably also note that standardized testing has just always irked my soul to its core

It's a dark time. Not so bad once you get through it. It only gets darker when you cross dream schools off of your list because your score isn't good enough.

 

[Spr1ngrolls]

It's a dark time. Not so bad once you get through it. It only gets darker when you cross dream schools off of your list because your score isn't good enough.

Just can't win with the application process, let's add that to the list

 

[Turkishking]

taking useless classes like Plant Bio.

 

[mwsapphire]

Other pre-meds. For some odd reason, I get extremely angry whenever I see another pre-med that I don't know (only know 2). Kind of ironic since I'm pre-med as well.

Then why are you on a website filled with pre meds?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[DPTinthemaking15]

Hearing EVERY pre-med talk about their "connections" at certain Med schools. Meanwhile, I am hoping these strikingly good looks land me an interview