What do you think about UK train podiatrists?

[theepodiatrist]

Are they really less knowledgeable than US ones because their training entails only a 3 year bachelor degree? Do US podiatrists have a larger scope of practice?

I'm asking because I'm thinking of embarking a podiatry degree here in the UK...

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[CutsWithFury]

Are they really less knowledgeable than US ones because their training entails only a 3 year bachelor degree? Do US podiatrists have a larger scope of practice?

I'm asking because I'm thinking of embarking a podiatry degree here in the UK...

We have way more medical and surgical training. 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of medical school, 3 years of residency training, optional additional year of fellowship training.

There is no comparison.


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[josebiwasabi]

Not even close.

Specific titles may vary but in terms of scope of practice essentially you are a podiatric surgeon in the US vs chiropodist in the UK.

If you are ok with being limited to a scope of practice that the mustache pods in the US performed in the 80s then you may be satisfied with a career in the UK.

 

[dtrack22]

Yeah as far as I can tell, in the UK and Australia you do nail trimming, foot fungus, and some mixture of biomechanics/orthotics/physical therapy.

 

[malleolusman]

Not even close.

Specific titles may vary but in terms of scope of practice essentially you are a podiatric surgeon in the US vs chiropodist in the UK.

If you are ok with being limited to a scope of practice that the mustache pods in the US performed in the 80s then you may be satisfied with a career in the UK.

Mustache pods. Man that is a great description.

 

[ExperiencedDPM]

We have way more medical and surgical training. 4 years of undergrad, 4 years of medical school, 3 years of residency training, optional additional year of fellowship training.

There is no comparison.


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You went to 4 years of MEDICAL school? Silly me, I thought it was podiatric medical school.

 

[CutsWithFury]

You went to 4 years of MEDICAL school? Silly me, I thought it was podiatric medical school.

Oh how silly of me...

That's right podiatric medical school is not real medical school

 

[ExperiencedDPM]

Oh how silly of me...

That's right podiatric medical school is not real medical school

You’re correct. It’s not.

 

[CutsWithFury]

You’re correct. It’s not.

Not going to disagree but my education was more robust than the mustache pods of the 80-90s


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[ExperiencedDPM]

Not going to disagree but my education was more robust than the mustache pods of the 80-90s


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You make asinine assumptions and comments. Your clueless comments about the “mustache” podiatrists shows a total disrespect for those who had nothing handed to them and earned everything the hard way. I can name a load of mustache podiatrists who I hope you’re half as good as in your career.

Try to make your point without insulting those who laid the groundwork for everyone who followed, including you and me.

Next time I speak with John Schuberth I’ll remind him that his education was sub par compared to your MEDICAL school education.

I’m sure you’re that guy at a party that when asked what you do for a living responds “I’m a foot and ankle surgeon”. Then that horrible question is asked next....”are you an orthopedic surgeon or podiatrist”.

Try growing a mustache, you may immediately be enlightened.

 

[deleted1003403]

**** just got real.

 

[CutsWithFury]

You make asinine assumptions and comments. Your clueless comments about the “mustache” podiatrists shows a total disrespect for those who had nothing handed to them and earned everything the hard way. I can name a load of mustache podiatrists who I hope you’re half as good as in your career.

Try to make your point without insulting those who laid the groundwork for everyone who followed, including you and me.

Next time I speak with John Schuberth I’ll remind him that his education was sub par compared to your MEDICAL school education.

I’m sure you’re that guy at a party that when asked what you do for a living responds “I’m a foot and ankle surgeon”. Then that horrible question is asked next....”are you an orthopedic surgeon or podiatrist”.

Try growing a mustache, you may immediately be enlightened.

Standard


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[DYK343]

You make asinine assumptions and comments. Your clueless comments about the “mustache” podiatrists shows a total disrespect for those who had nothing handed to them and earned everything the hard way. I can name a load of mustache podiatrists who I hope you’re half as good as in your career.

Try to make your point without insulting those who laid the groundwork for everyone who followed, including you and me.

Next time I speak with John Schuberth I’ll remind him that his education was sub par compared to your MEDICAL school education.

I’m sure you’re that guy at a party that when asked what you do for a living responds “I’m a foot and ankle surgeon”. Then that horrible question is asked next....”are you an orthopedic surgeon or podiatrist”.

Try growing a mustache, you may immediately be enlightened.

Just try to ignore him. I know hes insulting and adds very little to the board. He will get banned soon.

 

[CutsWithFury]

Just try to ignore him. I know hes insulting and adds very little to the board. He will get banned soon.

I think a lot of posters would disagree.


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[DexterMorganSK]

I want to remind everyone to keep their posts civil. Attacking one another or inflaming is against the TOS.
Please use the ignore function.

 

[heybrother]

Ignoring the above.

We can go on about years and hours but that's something chiropractors and naturpaths do. The big thing to me is - you build a hopefully strong knowledge base in school and then you see the light years of difference between a graduating 4th year student and a new resident 3 months in. Actually having to function as a doctor/resident changes you. You can tell yourself you've seen it all at the end of 4th year, but you haven't. You need to be the person on the spot. You need to develop. You need time to tie is all together. I found myself as a 3rd year thinking back to 1st year cases and saying - duh, how didn't I see that. 1 year out now I honestly had like 3-4 months where nothing at all went wrong. It all flowed smoothly. And then bam, small little bizarre things started to go wrong. Weird cases that didn't make sense. And you reach into that deep well of experience you hopefully built up in residency to get your through those moments and set things straight. Briefly on the surgical training - good programs hopefully expose you to the length and breadth of surgery. If not certain cases, hopefully at least an academic exposure to them so you can at least see what else is out there. I've watched some lectures on different educational softwares where I said - wow, I didn't know you could do that.

The powers that be in our profession are trying to bastardize the profession into lesser and great surgeons. Hopefully that gets shutdown. Limited training leads to the old if you all you have is a hammer mentality. The simple truth is not everyone is going to get the training to feel comfortable doing realignment metatarsus adductus correction, but hopefully you'll get enough training to know an Austin and Akin ain't going to get the job done when that patient says they have a bunion.

 

[GreenHousePub]

You make asinine assumptions and comments. Your clueless comments about the “mustache” podiatrists shows a total disrespect for those who had nothing handed to them and earned everything the hard way. I can name a load of mustache podiatrists who I hope you’re half as good as in your career.

Try to make your point without insulting those who laid the groundwork for everyone who followed, including you and me.

Next time I speak with John Schuberth I’ll remind him that his education was sub par compared to your MEDICAL school education.

I’m sure you’re that guy at a party that when asked what you do for a living responds “I’m a foot and ankle surgeon”. Then that horrible question is asked next....”are you an orthopedic surgeon or podiatrist”.

Try growing a mustache, you may immediately be enlightened.

Im just jealous of those guys who were able to take full advantage of fantastic reimbursement and all the tricks of the trade before they got clamped down.

 

[ExperiencedDPM]

Im just jealous of those guys who were able to take full advantage of fantastic reimbursement and all the tricks of the trade before they got clamped down.

As I’ve posted in the past, I’m often hired as a consultant to review cases for suspected fraud. I can tell you factually, that the “tricks of the trade” are at an all time high. No one would believe some of the cases I’ve reviewed regarding fraud. I was told it was rampant in the old days, and I can tell you it’s almost out of control now.

DPMs are making huge money by billing fraudulently. Remember, that the vast majority of claims are not reviewed and slip through the system. Insurance companies couldn’t possibly review every claim. There’s a certain level of “the honor system”. If you bill for procedures X, Y and Z, there is an assumption you’ve done those procedures.

The fraud is exposed when the claim is reviewed. This often happens when a provider is way off the charts billing a specific procedure or if procedures are constantly unbundled.

About a month ago, I reviewed about a dozen cases from the same provider. All hospital or surgery center cases. Every one of the cases had the same procedures, and each operative report was verbatim. Each patient had the identical pathology. Every lesion removed, cyst removed, etc was the exact location and exact size in every patient.

This is not unique. As I stated, the amount of fraud and abuse of the system is staggering and it’s alive and well and is increasing.

The providers justification in their minds is that reimbursement is low so they become pigs and become creative.

So I can assure you that those tricks of the trade of years ago, are alive and well and more prevalent than ever.

 

[heybrother]

I don't really understand how people pull some of that off.

I had a forefoot case awhile back. I thought the case could best be described as - 1st MPJ fusion, PIPJ fusion, and debridement of bone from the 2nd metatarsal head. The case was going to be rough - the 2nd MPJ had arthritis on both sides and while I always favor bone over soft tissue I was considering trying a flexor tendon transfer. I told my office manager to bill it like I planned it - the above. We did those things even if we also did a little more. She got all cute and was like - no, no, we can totally turn this into these others procedures if we change how its billed. You can bill more smaller things and get paid for them. Well she'd already submitted it. She's gone now. And the insurance company said f^&* you, paid the lowest value procedure of her unbundling and nothing has come of it since then. Now, perhaps she's right. She did go to the APMA coding course after all. And perhaps we're supposed to be fighting it.

But I don't get how people pull some of this stuff off since it seems like this was just straight shut down probably by a computer somewhere at Blue Cross. I think they looked at the codes that were used together and said - we see your unbundling and we raise you less payment.

 

[dtrack22]

I don't really understand how people pull some of that off.

I had a forefoot case awhile back. I thought the case could best be described as - 1st MPJ fusion, PIPJ fusion, and debridement of bone from the 2nd metatarsal head. The case was going to be rough - the 2nd MPJ had arthritis on both sides and while I always favor bone over soft tissue I was considering trying a flexor tendon transfer. I told my office manager to bill it like I planned it - the above. We did those things even if we also did a little more. She got all cute and was like - no, no, we can totally turn this into these others procedures if we change how its billed. You can bill more smaller things and get paid for them. Well she'd already submitted it. She's gone now. And the insurance company said f^&* you, paid the lowest value procedure of her unbundling and nothing has come of it since then. Now, perhaps she's right. She did go to the APMA coding course after all. And perhaps we're supposed to be fighting it.

But I don't get how people pull some of this stuff off since it seems like this was just straight shut down probably by a computer somewhere at Blue Cross. I think they looked at the codes that were used together and said - we see your unbundling and we raise you less payment.

yeah I performed a partial excision of calcaneus and billed partial excision of calcaneus and insurance rejected it. Office had to appeal. All of our 25 modifier claims were rejected first pass and required appeal with BCBS and then I think United jumped on board as well. Multiple hammertoes in one procedure with appropriate modifiers identifying separate digits, rejected, had to be appealed. The list goes on.

Reimbursement from insurance plans is very regional which has something to do with it. But I would tell you that a lot of folks who claim they are billing AND getting paid for some of this stuff actually aren’t. They are either outright lying to you (I don’t get why but it’s no different than folks lying about how busy they are or their income so...) or they have no idea what they are actually getting paid for. Either way, my experience has been the opposite of those folks who claim they are getting paid for all the sneaky unbundling things we’ve heard about.

 

[theepodiatrist]

Typical modules on a UK Podiatry course:

BSc (Hons) Podiatry

Podiatry is the assessment, diagnosis and treatment of foot and lower limb disorders, many of which are caused by general health disorders. You will use comprehensive assessment and diagnostic skills to develop patient care pathways for conditions which impact on people's quality of life.

beta.salford.ac.uk

Would you say they cover 'everything' that has to be covered in order for someone to be a foot specialist?

 

[Sartorius P.O.D.]

Are they really less knowledgeable than US ones because their training entails only a 3 year bachelor degree? Do US podiatrists have a larger scope of practice?

I'm asking because I'm thinking of embarking a podiatry degree here in the UK...

Getting back on track, I would say you are really talking to the wrong group of people. Podiatry in AUS/CAN/UK is so different from the US that it is almost pointless to compare the two. It's not really about who is "better" or "more knowledgable" as the profession in the US more closely resembles something you would see an orthopedic surgeon doing in the UK. From my understanding, Uk podiatrist do not touch the rearfoot or ankle and that is what I spent >75% of my surgical training doing.

Further more, the regular posters on this forum are on the very highly trained in surgery end of the spectrum (bad lower leg trauma and reconstruction, ankle replacements, Charcot recon etc.) and mostly practice in manner that has nothing to do with anything you would see a UK podiatrist do. Not exactly experts on UK podiatry. You would be better off seeking counsel from some actual UK podiatirst

 

[heybrother]

It gives you enough training to probably be a podiatrist in the UK. If foot specialist means being an expert clinician, physician, surgeon of the foot/ankle, capable of interacting with a multidisciplinary team of doctors, etc - no, it probably doesn't. I know we beat around the bush a bit and went off in our usual direction, but I think we answered it above. You won't have the training the US pathway provides. If you want to be an expert of the foot and ankle - become an orthopedic surgeon somewhere the UK, the USA, or Canada or become a podiatrist in the USA - I don't know how that will fly when you go back to the UK if you are a Brit. You may have substantially less scope of practice than we have over here.

 

[diabeticfootdr]

Pods in the UK have a bachelors degree, BPod. But guess what, so do physicians in the UK. They have an MBBS. UK pods have achieved parity with their medicine colleagues.
There are podiatric surgeons in the UK as well. And frankly, if anyone wants to compare scopes, Spanish podiatrists have a broader scope than those in the US. Everyone has their place in the world. We’re all taking care of patients to the best of our abilities. No one is better than anyone else and we can all learn something from each other.

 

[PodRocks]

Thank you for that!

 

[PodRocks]

The level of ignorance on here is mind boggling to say the least. It takes up to 12 years to become a podiatric surgeon in the UK. The UK system of education is unique and indeed, very rigorous. To become a podiatric surgeon in the UK, pupils go to what we call six form (years 12 and 13) for two years after high school to do advanced level (A Level) study.

After which they go to university to study podiatry for 3 - 4 years (depending the university they choose). N.B medical doctors and dentist in the UK also do a bachelors of science. Upon completion, the masters of science in podiatric surgery is then embarked upon for those so inclined (you don’t have to). This is then followed by three years of residency training and a final exam.

If successful, candidates can apply for a surgical post and after a period of three years mentoring and monitoring on the job, one can then be registered as a podiatric surgeon. The candidate can then apply for a consultancy position and use the title Mr (some would argue a higher title than Dr) before their names indicating that they are a podiatric surgeon.

Further, they will have to be trained as independent prescribers of medicine, they can order images, including X-rays, MRI, CT scans, blood tests and etc. They can do fore and rear foot surgery (depending on training) and they do have full hospital privileges.

I do agree its a long and tedious process, but when they are finished, what the public get is a very well trained practitioner. A UK trained podiatric surgeon practicing in their full scope can do everything their US counterpart does.

Now then, and this has to be said, the US DPM is not necessarily recognised in the UK. The DPM based on UK standards is just a post graduate diploma, 120 credits after a bachelors degree. The masters of science in podiatric surgery in the uk is 180 credits.

I have nothing against the pods on the other side of the pond, tremendous respect, but I do smell a whiff of superiority in some, not all. The UK system is not less than, just different.

 

[josebiwasabi]

There are approximately 13,000 practicing podiatrists/chiropodists in the UK.

And only 40 consultant podiatric surgeons in the UK

Why are we comparing the average US-trained podiatrist versus the top 0.3% UK-trained podiatrists?

 

[CutsWithFury]

The level of ignorance on here is mind boggling to say the least. It takes up to 12 years to become a podiatric surgeon in the UK. The UK system of education is unique and indeed, very rigorous. To become a podiatry surgeon in the UK, pupils go to what we call six form (years 12 and 13) for two years after high school to do advanced level (A Level) study.

After which they go to university to study podiatry for 3 - 4 years (depending the university they choose). N.B medical doctors and dentist in the UK also do a bachelors of science. Upon completion, the masters of science in podiatric surgery is then embarked upon for those so inclined (you don’t have to). This is then followed by three years of residency training and a final exam.

If successful, candidates can apply for a surgical post and after a period of three years mentoring and monitoring on the job, one can then be registered as a podiatric surgeon. The candidate can then apply for a consultancy position and use the title Mr (some would argue a higher title than Dr) before there names indicating that they are a podiatric surgeon.

Further, they will have to be trained as independent prescribers of medicine, they can order images, including X-rays, MRI, CT scans, blood tests and etc. They can do fore and rear foot surgery (depending on training) and they do have full hospital privileges.

I do agree its a long and tedious process, but when they are finished, what the public get is a very well trained practitioner. A UK trained podiatric surgeon practicing in their full scope can do everything their US counterpart does.

Now then, and this has to be said, the US DPM is not necessarily recognised in the UK. The the DPM based on UK standards is just a post graduate diploma, 120 credits after a bachelors degree. The masters of science in podiatric surgery in the uk is 180 credits.

I have nothing against the pods on the other side of the pond, tremendous respect, but I do smell a whiff of superiority in some, not all. The UK system is not less than, just different.

Nobody cares. Sorry. I’ve never seen a podiatrist in the UK post a case of them fixing an ankle fracture or doing a total ankle replacement

 

[dtrack22]

There are approximately 13,000 practicing podiatrists/chiropodists in the UK.

And only 40 consultant podiatric surgeons in the UK

Why are we comparing the average US-trained podiatrist versus the top 0.3% UK-trained podiatrists?

because the British chap is butthurt

a podiatrist in the UK GENERALLY means someone who does toenails, dermal conditions, and biomechanics that stop at some therapy and custom orthotics. As you pointed out, almost no “podiatrists” in the UK are doing foot or ankle surgery in an operating room. But I’m glad to have learned about the training for those handful of surgical podiatrists in the UK...

 

[air bud]

because the British chap is butthurt

a podiatrist in the UK GENERALLY means someone who does toenails, dermal conditions, and biomechanics that stop at some therapy and custom orthotics. As you pointed out, almost no “podiatrists” in the UK are doing foot or ankle surgery in an operating room. But I’m glad to have learned about the training for those handful of surgical podiatrists in the UK...

Seems like a lot of work to still be just a podiatrist....ouch that hits a little to close tom home...

 

[GreenHousePub]

Seems like a lot of work to still be just a podiatrist....ouch that hits a little to close tom home...

Oi! You got a license for that humor, mate??

 

[msuDPM]

Oi! You got a license for that humor, mate??

I keep mine in the boot. [Badumbum]

 

[xoxo111]

I was wondering, can a US trained podiatrist practice in the UK/Australia and earn the same salary as a GP (the very least) in UK/Australia? When I looked up online, I saw that podiatrists in UK/AUS earn like $30-40k compared to US podiatrists $100k+, but I am hoping that maybe US trained podiatrists would earn more if they decided to practice in those countries?

 

[air bud]

I was wondering, can a US trained podiatrist practice in the UK/Australia and earn the same salary as a GP (the very least) in UK/Australia? When I looked up online, I saw that podiatrists in UK/AUS earn like $30-40k compared to US podiatrists $100k+, but I am hoping that maybe US trained podiatrists would earn more if they decided to practice in those countries?

yeah it just doesn't work that way. forget about figuring out a way to go to australia/NZ. not happening.

 

[CutsWithFury]

yeah it just doesn't work that way. forget about figuring out a way to go to australia/NZ. not happening.

Agreed. Every foreign country has their own standards of education and different board exams. If the public and physicians in the USA can’t understand what we do and what our education is how can you expect foreign doctors to understand and accept your training?

 

[xoxo111]

That’s too bad. I like podiatry but I hate the fact that my field is so limited. If I wish to move elsewhere, my job won’t carry over and I suppose I’m just stuck in US.

 

[DYK343]

Same is true with osteopathic doctors.
MD is really the only international degree (some one can correct me if wrong).

 

[dtrack22]

Same is true with osteopathic doctors.
MD is really the only international degree (some one can correct me if wrong).

pretty sure we can all go work in the UAE with our US degrees. Dubai just gets kinda toasty in the summer.

 

[CutsWithFury]

pretty sure we can all go work in the UAE with our US degrees. Dubai just gets kinda toasty in the summer.

You can’t. I already inquired. They don’t accept American trained podiatrists. They don’t know how to deal with our training and education.

You have to pass a bunch of certification tests to practice there if you are MD/DO.

 

[dtrack22]

You can’t. I already inquired. They don’t accept American trained podiatrists. They don’t know how to deal with our training and education.

You have to pass a bunch of certification tests to practice there if you are MD/DO.

 

[xoxo111]

H

Hey look, dude went to my school for DPM lol

 

[G0dFather]

You went to 4 years of MEDICAL school? Silly me, I thought it was podiatric medical school.

Why cant we just call it what it is guys ... PODIATRY SCHOOL

I’m sure you’re that guy at a party that when asked what you do for a living responds “I’m a foot and ankle surgeon”. Then that horrible question is asked next....”are you an orthopedic surgeon or podiatrist”.

LMAOOO!!! SAD!

 

[diabeticfootdr]

pretty sure we can all go work in the UAE with our US degrees. Dubai just gets kinda toasty in the summer.

Yes, that's true. I know several DPMs working there.

In many countries in the Middle East, you can practice to a certain level based on your education, training, and experience. The ministries of health (which are sometimes under the control of a King) takes these on a case-by-case basis. If you know someone or provide some unique set of skills they need (wound care/Charcot surgery) it is easier. I've performed surgeries in Qatar, Dubai, and Saudi Arabia.

 

[heybrother]

I too have operated in the middle east. However, I cannot go back or I will be executed.

Edit: hrm SDN cut out the wink.

 

[shezadeh]

That’s too bad. I like podiatry but I hate the fact that my field is so limited. If I wish to move elsewhere, my job won’t carry over and I suppose I’m just stuck in US.

Apparently the DPM degree is recognized in certain provinces in Canada