What do you think of this "expert" testimony?

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Birdstrike

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Ever heard of Peter Rosen? I bet you have. Take a gander at this really excellent article by the very smart and apparently multi-talented Emergency Physician, Dr William Sullivan, DO, JD:


"...15 year old patient "
"...classic case of pulmonary embolism..."
“...did nothing to prove or disprove the presence” of a pulmonary embolism..."

http://epmonthly.com/article/gross-negligence-a-slippery-slope-for-dubious-expert-testimony/

"Expert opinions eviscerate Georgia law enacted to protect emergency medical care
In an attempt to mitigate the high costs of medical malpractice insurance, decrease the number of multimillion dollar jury verdicts, and encourage physicians to provide medical care, some states have enacted laws to limit the liability of medical providers in medical malpractice cases. Capping noneconomic damages in medical malpractice cases is but one of the better-known methods that many states have utilized, but there are many others.
Another approach that some states have used to implement tort reform is to increase the standard of proof required to prove negligence in cases where physicians are required by law to provide care. In general, to win a medical malpractice case, a plaintiff must prove that a physician had a duty to treat the patient, that the physician breached the duty, and that the physician’s breach of duty caused the patient to suffer damages. In most states, the standard for proving a “breach of duty” in a medical malpractice case is a simple negligence standard, meaning that a plaintiff must prove that a doctor violated the “standard of care” by failing to act as any other reasonable physician would act under similar circumstances.
In 2005, the Georgia legislature enacted a statute(1) requiring that any patients filing a medical malpractice claim based on EMTALA-related care must prove by “clear and convincing evidence” that the medical provider was grossly negligent. While the definitions of “gross negligence” vary from state to state, Georgia courts define “gross negligence” as being “equivalent to (the) failure to exercise even a slight degree of care” and “lack of the diligence that even careless men are accustomed to exercise.”(2)
Using the definition provided by Georgia courts, in order to win a medical malpractice case in Georgia, a plaintiff must prove by “clear and convincing evidence” that a physician failed to provide even a “slight degree” of medical care or that the physician’s medical care was less than “careless.” In theory, these are high hurdles to overcome, and many trial judges will dismiss cases, as a matter of law, that fail to meet this standard of proof. However, after a recent Georgia Supreme Court case, the initial determination as to whether a physician’s medical care was grossly negligent is now being left to the assertions of an expert witness. If an expert’s assertions of gross negligence are made in a careless manner, those allegations may result in severe repercussions for defendant physicians.

Application to Legal Cases
Expert opinions were central to a recent Georgia case(3) in which a 15 year old patient who was one week status post arthroscopic knee surgery went to the emergency department with complaints of left chest pain. The pain was worse when he laid flat. He had no fever or dyspnea and denied other complaints. In the emergency department, the patient had normal vital signs and “perfect” pulse oximetry. The physician performed a physical exam and ordered an EKG and a chest x-ray, both of which were interpreted as being normal. The patient’s pain resolved after receiving Toradol and he was sent home with a diagnosis of pleurisy and a prescription for Naprosyn. Two weeks later, the patient again developed chest pain and dyspnea. He was transported by ambulance back to the emergency department where he died from bilateral pulmonary emboli.
The patient’s parents filed a medical malpractice lawsuit against the treating emergency physician and the emergency physician’s group. The trial court dismissed the case for failing to meet the “gross negligence” standard of proof. An appellate court then affirmed the trial court’s decision. The Georgia Supreme Court reviewed the case, including testimony from plaintiff experts Drs. Peter Rosen and Dr. Steven Gabaeff. According to the court opinions, Drs. Rosen and Gabaeff testified that the EKG showed “Q3T3” abnormalities and the chest x-ray demonstrated cardiomegaly – which were allegedly both suggestive of a pulmonary embolism. Dr. Rosen’s opinion was based on his experience diagnosing “hundreds if not thousands” of pulmonary emboli in his career. Rosen and Gabaeff opined that the patient’s symptoms “presented a classic case of pulmonary embolism” and that the diagnostic measures that the emergency physician took in response to those symptoms “did nothing to prove or disprove the presence” of a pulmonary embolism. While the treating physician believed that relief of pain from a pulmonary embolism would not occur with administration of Toradol, the experts called that reasoning “ridiculous.” Both experts stated that the standard of care required the treating physician to obtain a CT scan in order to rule out a pulmonary embolism in the patient, and that failure to do so was “grossly improper, egregious, and contrary to well-known and fundamental medical principles.” Given these expert opinions and other testimony in the case, the Georgia Supreme Court held that the treating physician’s treatment may have been grossly negligent and that a jury would have to decide the issue.

Hindsight
Experts must be cognizant of the strong hindsight bias created by knowing the outcome of a patient’s treatment and must strive to engage in prospective rather than retrospective review of a physician’s care. These caveats are even more important when delineating between ordinary negligence and gross negligence. It is medically and ethically inappropriate for an expert to make an allegation of medical negligence that is in any way based on the patient’s outcome.
It is abundantly clear that in this case the opinions of both experts were significantly influenced by hindsight bias. They repeatedly criticized the treating physician for failing to properly evaluate the patient for a “pulmonary embolism” even though that diagnosis was not known until two weeks after the patient had been discharged from the emergency department. In addition, they called the physician’s clinical exclusion of pulmonary embolism in the patient “egregious” even though the patient’s vital signs and oxygenation were normal, the alleged abnormalities found on x-ray and EKG were not predictive of pulmonary embolism, and the patient had a low pre-test probability for pulmonary embolism.
Pursuant to Georgia law, the standard to which the emergency physician was held in this case was a failure to provide even a “slight” degree of medical care to the patient. Had Drs. Rosen and Gabaeff focused their opinions upon the prospective evaluation of a 15 year old male with pleuritic chest pain, they would have realized the significant leap in logic it would take to allege that a history and physical examination, evaluation of oxygenation, evaluation of chest x-rays and EKG, administration of medications to treat symptoms, and subsequent re-evaluation of the patient all constituted less than “slight” care of this patient or were “less than careless.”

The Fall Out
A finding of grossly negligent medical care has implications far beyond being found liable in a medical malpractice case. A determination that a physician engaged in grossly negligent medical care may affect that physician’s ability to continue practicing medicine. Physician employment contracts often contain language allowing the physician to be immediately terminated for any actions that constitute a threat to the safety of patients. Failing to exercise “even a slight degree of care” in providing treatment to patients would certainly fit that definition. However, losing one’s job may be the least of the physician’s worries,. A determination that a physician’s care was grossly negligent may also cause a physician’s malpractice coverage to be denied, may subject a physician to punitive damages, and may result in adverse actions against the physician’s license.
Denial of Malpractice Coverage
Just as a homeowner’s insurance policy may exclude certain types of damages from coverage, medical malpractice insurance companies also exclude certain actions from coverage. For example, medical malpractice insurance carriers generally deny coverage for criminal acts. Policy language may also exclude grossly negligent acts from coverage. One medical malpractice insurance company’s policy reserves the right to deny defense or payment of damages for “any criminal, intentional, fraudulent, malicious, or reckless act or omission.” Another medical malpractice policy reserves the right to cancel an insurance policy (and presumably deny coverage for) “discovery of willful or grossly negligent acts or omissions … which materially increase the risks insured under this policy.”
An allegation of grossly negligent care or a finding of grossly negligent care by a jury may be sufficient cause for an insurer to deny a physician’s medical malpractice coverage, leaving the physician personally liable for all defense costs and judgments associated with the medical malpractice lawsuit.

Punitive Damages
In most states, medical malpractice defendants can be liable for punitive damages. While many of the states that allow punitive damages require that a defendant engage in acts demonstrating “willful misconduct,” “malice,” “fraud,” or “outrageous conduct” before punitive damages can be imposed, some states allow punitive damages to be imposed with a finding of gross negligence. For example, under Florida statutes, a defendant may be held liable for punitive damages “if the trier of fact, based on clear and convincing evidence, finds that the defendant was personally guilty of intentional misconduct or gross negligence.”(4) Mississippi allows punitive damage awards for clear and convincing proof of “actual malice, gross negligence which evidences a willful, wanton or reckless disregard for the safety of others, [or] actual fraud.” Even in Georgia, punitive damages may be awarded if “it is proven by clear and convincing evidence that the defendant’s actions showed willful misconduct, malice, fraud, wantonness, oppression, or that entire want of care which would raise the presumption of conscious indifference to consequences.”(5)
Punitive damage awards are paid out of the defendant’s pocket.

Actions Against a Physician’s Medical License
Every state has a Medical Practice Act which delineates how medical providers are to be licensed, monitored, and disciplined. If a state licensing board becomes aware that a physician’s medical care has been adjudged grossly negligent, the Board is likely to take some action against the physician’s medical license. For example, California statutes require the Division of Medical Quality to take action against any licensee who is charged with “unprofessional conduct” – the definition of which includes “gross negligence.”(6) Illinois statutes allow revocation, suspension and “any other disciplinary action” against a physician’s license in addition to a fine of $10,000 for each violation, when a physician engages in, among other things, “gross negligence in practice under this Act.”(7)
Like malpractice payments, adverse actions taken against a physician’s license are reported to the National Practitioner Databank and may trigger adverse actions by medical boards in any other states where the physician holds a medical license.

Conclusion
As medicolegal paradigms change, we must educate ourselves about how those new paradigms affect our practice and our liability. While legislative changes in the standard of proof for medical malpractice cases may help states retain emergency physicians and specialists who are willing to provide emergency medical care, allowing experts to provide illogical and inappropriate testimony regarding those standards defeats the intended purpose of the legislation and puts emergency physicians at considerable risk. Just as emergency physicians should have an interest in protecting our patients from inappropriate medical care, so too should we have an interest in protecting our colleagues from inappropriate medical testimony. Failing to address these issues benefits neither us nor our profession.
Dr. Sullivan practices emergency medicine in Illinois, is a Clinical Assistant Professor at both the University of Illinois at Midwestern University. He is a past-president of the Illinois College of Emergency Physicians, a past chair of the ACEP Medical Legal Committee, and has a private legal practice focusing on healthcare-related issues.
References
1. OCGA § 51-1-29.5(c)
2. [Gliemmo v. Cousineau, No. S09A1807 (March 15, 2010)
3.
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ga-court-of-appeals/1616486.html, http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ga-supreme-court/1649592.html
4. Fla. Stat. 768.72(2)
5. O.C.G.A. § 51-12-5.1(b).
6. Cal. Code Section 2234 (b)
7. 225 ILCS 60/22(A)(4).

Case Files
Examples of Gross Negligence in Medical Malpractice

1 Surgeon was found liable for gross negligence after treating postoperative ileus with nasogastric suction and failing to monitor or replace electrolytes for three days. Patient later died from suspected electrolyte imbalance. Expert testimony played large part in court’s determination, as two experts both testified that omissions such as failing to administer electrolytes to a patient who could not tolerate oral fluids and failure to review x-rays taken the night before the patient’s death were “an extreme departure from the standard practice of medicine.”
Gore v. Board of Medical Quality Assurance, 110 Cal. App. 3d 184 (Cal. 1980)
2 Doctors liable for grossly negligent care after administering 400 hours of supplemental oxygen to premature infant who later developed blindness from retrolental fibroplasia. Prior to event, AAP report was published warning of development of RLF in premature infants receiving supplemental oxygen and recommended regular ABG monitoring. At subsequent hospital pediatrics meeting, staff doctors warned that hospital would have “blind babies” if it did not obtain equipment to monitor neonatal blood gases. When plaintiff born as premature infant, hospital neither had proper equipment nor offered to transfer patient to hospital that did have proper equipment.
Birchfield v. Texarkana Memorial Hosp., 747 SW 2d 361 (Texas 1987)
3 Emergency department nurses were found liable for gross negligence for giving intravenous verapamil to patient suffering from ventricular tachycardia who refused cardioversion and whose rhythm had not responded to either lidocaine or bretylium. Cardiologist recommended giving Verapamil, but ACLS protocols noted that Verapamil is contraindicated in ventricular tachycardia, and nurses admitted knowing that there was an extreme risk in giving Verapamil. Patient suffered cardiac arrest shortly after receiving Verapamil and now has permanent brain damage. Emergency physician and cardiologist found not liable.
Columbia Medical Center of Las Colinas v. Bush, 122 S.W.3d 835 (Texas 2003)"



What do you think?

A "classic case of pulmonary embolism..." ?
He “did nothing to prove or disprove the presence” of a pulmonary embolism..."?

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(9/7/16 post-edit to replace broken link to original article with working link)

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It's a mixed bag. The patient's first presentation clearly was not a classic case of PE, but if the EKG showed S1Q3T3 I think you could make a case for further evaluation being standard care in a patient with chest pain and recent LE surgery. At least on the information presented here, picking the PE up on the first visit would be a great catch but I don't think missing it would be negligent.
 
there is nothing classic about a 15 year old with PE. I understand that they were post op, but nonetheless, I wouldnt consider it "classic" or typical, as if 15 year olds get PE's routinely.
 
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The key here isn't the "standard of care" element. It's the issue of gross negligence. Peter Rosen and the other expert had the gall to state the physicians work up and interpretation of the data violated a GROSS NEGLIGENCE standard, not the simple negligence standard. Rosen is stating that the treating physician provided care that was “equivalent to (the) failure to exercise even a slight degree of care” and “lack of the diligence that even careless men are accustomed to exercise.” Whether or not you feel that this work up failed to meet the standard of care is irrelevant, I don't think a reasonable physician would argue that this work up lacked the diligence of even careless men.

This should strike considerable fear into the heart of every emergency physician that goes to bed at night feeling warm and fuzzing inside because they practice in a "tort reformed" state, as you are just an "expert witness" willing to hyperbolize their opinion away from losing a crushing defeat regardless of the legal standard in your state. This case had all the elements we pine for around the water cooler when we discuss how "we" would fix the med mal system. A tort reformed state with a high legal standard (it doesn't get better than gross negligence), expert witnesses from within our own field who would appreciate our though processes in working up patients (Peter Rosen wrote the book) and to boot it's a case that clearly isn't a slam dunk. This isn't a case of a febrile neonate who was sent home as a viral illness or hypotensive tachy abdominal pain vaginal bleeder with a positive pregnancy and no IUP on u/s sent home as dysfunction uterine bleeding. This was reportedly a normo-vitalled, 15yo with some chest pain. Unfortunately, it went all wrong for this defendant. This case is a canary in the coal mine for the role of personal legal protection when the forefathers of our specialty are willing to come out to haunt us, not help us as a specialty. If we as a professional society can not get behind the idea of acceptable miss rate and truly appreciate what is an unfortunate bad outcome compared to true negligence then we as a profession are doomed if not dead.

This one has really bummed me out,
1234
 
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I stand corrected. Willful and wanton…which is basically gross negligence plus a malice component is better, which is why I'm moving there in two months.
 
Standard of care....what any reasonable physician would do in this case is a an EKG an a CXR. That's it. To suggest that any PE workup and chest CTs are standard of care in young people with chest pain is ludicrous.

Would diagnosis of the PE on CT have meaningfully affected the outcome? I doubt it. For all our worry, an sleepless nights over "missing a PE" ther is very little we can do for them. PE mortality hasn't changed in 30 years, despite thrombolytics and Heparin "the standards of care".
 
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It's a mixed bag. The patient's first presentation clearly was not a classic case of PE, but if the EKG showed S1Q3T3 I think you could make a case for further evaluation being standard care in a patient with chest pain and recent LE surgery. At least on the information presented here, picking the PE up on the first visit would be a great catch but I don't think missing it would be negligent.
S1q3t3 has a worse sensitivity than a coin flip. You can't fault him for that.
 
Peter Rosen's EM textbooks are simply amazing. I mean in the sense of their amazing ability take a single short sentence worth of information, and turn it into an entire page of reading.

If his expert testimony is anything like his books, he is probably still sitting on the stand testifying.



Flame away. :)
 
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Why not offer the CT to the patient while mentioning that given the presentation the likelihood of PE is low (which is true). If presented correctly, most reasonable patients would then refuse and you can document having offered the CT. Would this approach offer some legal protection?
 
Why not offer the CT to the patient while mentioning that given the presentation the likelihood of PE is low (which is true). If presented correctly, most reasonable patients would then refuse and you can document having offered the CT. Would this approach offer some legal protection?
Please tell me you are kidding.
 
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..wonder how much $$$ Peter Rosen made off that testimony, and if it was worth it.
 
I respect what the man has done for our profession, but this will serve as yet another justification to never read his book (or Tint for that matter). :)
 
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Are we sure this is the same Peter Rosen? The guy seems to have had a pretty distinguished career, not sure why he would involve himself in the case.
 
Are we sure this is the same Peter Rosen? The guy seems to have had a pretty distinguished career, not sure why he would involve himself in the case.


Dr. Rosen had been a licensed physician since 1962, and he was the author and editor of numerous textbooks on the subject of emergency medicine, including a text and reference book entitled, “Emergency Medicine: Concepts and Clinical Practice.” Dr. Rosen had maintained teaching faculty privileges at Harvard University Medical School's teaching hospital; had maintained hospital staff privileges at several hospitals where he served as an emergency physician; had diagnosed the condition of pulmonary embolism hundreds, if not thousands, of times during his career as an emergency physician; and had taught medical students, interns, and residents how to properly consider, rule out, and diagnose the presence of a pulmonary embolism.
 
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According to this legal website:

http://www.leagle.com/decision/In GACO 20121127283

"1. Dr. Peter Rosen and Dr. Steven Gabaeff served as medical experts in this case. Dr. Rosen had been a licensed physician since 1962, and he was the author and editor of numerous textbooks on the subject of emergency medicine, including a text and reference book entitled, "Emergency Medicine: Concepts and Clinical Practice." Dr. Rosen had maintained teaching faculty privileges at Harvard University Medical School's teaching hospital; had maintained hospital staff privileges at several hospitals where he served as an emergency physician; had diagnosed the condition of pulmonary embolism hundreds, if not thousands, of times during his career as an emergency physician; and had taught medical students, interns, and residents how to properly consider, rule out, and diagnose the presence of a pulmonary embolism. Dr. Gabaeff had been an emergency physician for 35 years, and he had considered, ruled out, and diagnosed the condition of pulmonary embolism hundreds of times. Dr. Gabaeff had also been a faculty physician at the University of California Medical School in San Diego, and had taught medical students, interns, and residents on how to properly consider, rule out, and diagnose the pulmonary embolism condition. Based upon these qualifications, the trial court denied Dr. Omondi's motion to exclude the medical expert's testimony, and ruled that the medical experts were qualified to give expert opinion testimony in this case pursuant to OCGA § 24-9-67.1(c)."
 
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Can't say that I'm loving this testimony, but (and I may be reading the court's brief incorrectly) perhaps there is a silver lining in that the opinion was not actually a final judgement against the physician--as in that he was found to truly have been "grossly negligent"--rather the opinion states that a reasonable jury may find him to have been grossly negligent and that the lower courts could not use the summary judgement to dismiss the case. A fine point to be sure, but nonetheless....
 
Holy ****! Really interesting that I see Steven Gabaeff's name again. I'm an intern and I just did a case presentation on Child Maltreatment in our conference about a really messed up child abuse case we had. So as we all know, subdurals and retinal hemorrhages are virtually pathognomonic for child abuse... specifically shaken baby syndrome which is now called abusive head trauma. There is a pretty solid consensus that this is true.... except for one ED doctor who published a paper in the West Journal of Emergency Medicine (what's that you ask? well i had never heard of it either) who questions the link between the two:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3099599/

Who is the one and only author of the paper? You guessed it - yours truly Steven Gabaeff. At first, I was like whoa this is interesting and I've never heard it before. I should probably include it in my presentation for completeness. Until I learned more about Steven Gabaeff. And the fact that he loves testifying as an expert witness in the DEFENSE of parents who are accused of inflicting abusive head trauma to their babies.

http://www.taosnews.com/news/article_e9c1453a-f867-11e1-b3a8-001a4bcf887a.html
http://poundpuplegacy.org/node/53050

WTF. That is pretty convenient. Now he can quote his own paper in the West Journal of EM while he's testifying. Furthermore, there was a reason this paper was published in this journal and not, say, AAEM or NEJM. As Christopher Greely, pediatrician who specializes in child maltreatment and associate professor of pediatrics at UT in Houston, so eloquently points out in his response to Gabaeff's "opinion piece" - Gabaeff is on the board of editors for The West Journal of EM and was instrumental in its founding. Wow. Greely (god bless him) goes on to completely eviscerate Gabaeff's article and all the rhetoric and slights of hand he presents as evidence. He also flat out states that Gabaeff's motivation for writing the article is to have a citation from a "peer-reviewed journal" to refer to when he is testifying in court. Absolutely priceless Here is the link to Greely's response to the article and then Gabaeff's response to Greely which I didn't even read. Go to page 95:

http://issuu.com/westjem/docs/13.1

This is all just really freaking disturbing. Take home point: If you ever get served and you see Steven Gabaeff as an expert witness... You better settle because you're pretty much screwed.
 
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As another aside. I've been doing EM for about 8 months now and the only PE I've diagnosed was about 2-3 weeks ago. It was a woman in her mid-40s with a Well's score of zero, PERC negative, with perfect vital signs and breathing comfortably at rest in no distress. I couldn't find any risk factors for PE, no recent travel, OCP's, surgery, etc. She had remote history of thyroid CA s/p thyroidectomy. Her chief complaint was pleuritic CP and exertional dyspnea over the past week. My attending was like this sounds like PE before I even finished presenting the HPI. Her pain was right sided first, improved with Motrin per PCP recommendation and then a couple of days later she started feeling it on her left. Attending was like get the d-dimer. In my head I scoffed at him and grudgingly got it. D-dimer is 3000, we get the scan and BAM. Bilateral PE in both pulmonary arteries. WTF. I'm never using PERC again. We haparinized and admitted her. Funny enough, she came back a couple of nights ago with vaginal bleeding (on Xarelto) and a Hgb of 6.8. Nothing super serious but again she had to be admitted. Now im thinking, did she really need the Xarelto? Would those PE's have just resorbed on their own? Or would she have just died like this 15yo kid? I guess that's why we treat PE's, even tiny subsegmental ones. I guess after these two cases I'm just gonna be scanning everyone and their mother with even a whiff of PE from now on :)
 
Dr. Rosen had been a licensed physician since 1962, and he was the author and editor of numerous textbooks on the subject of emergency medicine, including a text and reference book entitled, “Emergency Medicine: Concepts and Clinical Practice.” Dr. Rosen had maintained teaching faculty privileges at Harvard University Medical School's teaching hospital; had maintained hospital staff privileges at several hospitals where he served as an emergency physician; had diagnosed the condition of pulmonary embolism hundreds, if not thousands, of times during his career as an emergency physician; and had taught medical students, interns, and residents how to properly consider, rule out, and diagnose the presence of a pulmonary embolism.

I've read that description before, and I'm glad I actually read that to the end. Strong work.
 
Peter Rosen is well known to testify against emergency physicians. Reading this article, I nearly had that throw-up-in-your mouth feeling.

Even if post-op, it was for an arthroscope--not a major procedure. S1Q3Ts has been shown to be a poor predictor of PE. This physician easily met the standard of care. If it was a clinically significant PE, there would have been some abnormality on initial exam.
 
Rosen's a dinosaur. As a poster above mentioned, the argument isn't whether this met the standard of care but whether it met the standard for gross negligence. Unless the facts are radically different than presented (something I'm not discounting entirely), this case clearly didn't meet that definition -- but a plaintiff's attorney paid two of our colleagues to testify that it did.

More reason to support a law not allowing outside witnesses not board certified in the state. Rosen either misunderstood the facts of the case and thus misrepresented them or he sold out his (dying) reputation and his profession for a buck. The other guy just sounds like an all-around greedy scumbag -- the one whose specialty on match day should have said "plaintiff's law" instead of a medical specialty.


Even Dr. Rosen's comments as quoted above make it plain about how his dinosaur thought patterns led him to testify the way he did -- his expertise was from having "diagnosed hundreds of thousands of PEs" in his career. That number is meaningless (assuming it's even true), because what we don't know is how many he missed, or how many any of us miss. He's probably also missed "hundreds of thousands" of PEs in his career, but you note he didn't quote that as the reason for his expertise. Rosen still lives in a world where "good" physicians have some god-like diagnostic ability that allows them to never be wrong, rather than in a world where (as the data has shown time and time again) even the best physicians miss and miss frequently. Even a broken clock is right twice a day, and even a ****ty physician occasionally clicks the check box that orders the right imaging modality to hand him a diagnosis. As a poster above said, until we come up with the idea that there is an acceptable miss rate that justifies not doing a trauma pan-scan and shotgun labs on every patient that walks through the door, this **** will keep popping up.
 
S1q3t3 has a worse sensitivity than a coin flip. You can't fault him for that.
Sensitivity isn't the test characteristic of interest on this one. If S1Q3T3 is present then the specificity is what's important and the numbers there range from 80-99% based on the study. Even given the low end of 80%, in a recent post-op patient with chest pain a + S1Q3T3 merits some sort of formal evaluation for PE.

And Birdstrike, good catch on Q3T3. My mind mentally added the S1. I'm not sure if it's been studied but in my time practicing I've found no prognostic value to just Q3T3.
 
some thoughts on the posts above..

1. i've published in west jem. it's not a first tier journal but it's respectable in our field.

2. the PERC rule leaves 2% of PEs on the table when applied correctly. it's not perfect. i document - "PERC neg, <2% chance PE, d/w pt., no further testing @ this time." i then usually tell the patient about the risks of ionizing radiation, IV dye, etc. there's a perception (and i don't know how true it really is) that if you document you considered a diagnosis, even missing that diagnosis and having a poor outcome affords you some protection, malpractice wise. not in a purely legal sense, of course, but someone (lawyer, family, judge, jury, etc) reading over the chart after the fact may acknowledge "yes, he considered it, and he thought it unlikely."

3. rosen peer reviewed a paper i published a while back, and his suggestions for revision seemed dated and not evidence-based.
 
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More reason to support a law not allowing outside witnesses not board certified in the state. Rosen either misunderstood the facts of the case and thus misrepresented them or he sold out his (dying) reputation and his profession for a buck. The other guy just sounds like an all-around greedy scumbag -- the one whose specialty on match day should have said "plaintiff's law" instead of a medical specialty.

Though I didn't look up when this happened, according to the ACEP 2014 report card Georgia requires "experts" to be both the same specialty as the defendant and licensed in the state in which you testify. Another plume in the cap of aggressive tort reform

I prefer to not think of either of these bottom feeders as colleagues just as skeezy hooahs who are happy to sell out our profession and those that practice it.

I want to banish old pete to a sanitarium to live out his days thinking about what a d--che he is, only to be kicked in the nards daily by every EP that rat faced turncoat left twisting in the wind. I'd congratulate him on writing a book every EP has heard of but so did Dale Dubin and we know what a creep that dude turned out to be.

I agree the other guy is just a slime ball

posting after a night shift leads to some weirdness,1234
 
Sensitivity isn't the test characteristic of interest on this one. If S1Q3T3 is present then the specificity is what's important and the numbers there range from 80-99% based on the study. Even given the low end of 80%, in a recent post-op patient with chest pain a + S1Q3T3 merits some sort of formal evaluation for PE.

And Birdstrike, good catch on Q3T3. My mind mentally added the S1. I'm not sure if it's been studied but in my time practicing I've found no prognostic value to just Q3T3.
Can you cite where you are getting this? I have searched pubmed to Wikipedia and at best I can find a specificity of 50. I have reviewed multiple studies and bottom line is ECG can only be used to check for a MI not rule in PE. I would really like to know if there is any data to get me excited when I see S1q3t3 in a patient with a cough or something.
 
I dug a little bit deeper and saw numbers jumping all over the damn place. And the 99% specificity article had unsound methodology. The primary literature is pretty old and I don't have access to some of the more recent studies. 62% specificity gets thrown out a lot, as does a likelihood ratio of 3.7. Inverted T-waves in V1 and III seem highly specific in one study but were present in 11% of PE pts and 4.6% of controls in another. Arrggh, it looks like this may be one of those things that the thinking changed between residency and now and it didn't light up on any of my usual sources of CME. It appears I was incorrect regarding the specificity of S1Q3T3 for PE.
 
so the ekg had q3t3 w/o s1 aka 66% of a test w/ 50% spec to r/o a disease w/ low pretest probability yet this finding alone w/ recent surgery represents "classic PE" in the absence of VS abnormalities. BS

if you keep up with literature you probably hear a lot more about "danger of pediatric radiation" than s1q3t3 which is a crap positive LR.

granted by PERC this pt needed a d-dimer (hindsight bias), but honestly maybe 1/15 attendings I work with would order this test in face of VS/exam/pediatric radiation risk if positive.

Rosen sold out.

There aren't enough ER docs to go around, ruining the career of one because of bad luck does harm to the specialty.

'Tis better to be lucky than good.
 
Peter Rosen has sold out the profession he helped create. As a former attending of mine - he has lost my total respect. Really sad to see him go out like this.
 
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so the ekg had q3t3 w/o s1 aka 66% of a test w/ 50% spec to r/o a disease w/ low pretest probability yet this finding alone w/ recent surgery represents "classic PE" in the absence of VS abnormalities. BS

if you keep up with literature you probably hear a lot more about "danger of pediatric radiation" than s1q3t3 which is a crap positive LR.

granted by PERC this pt needed a d-dimer (hindsight bias), but honestly maybe 1/15 attendings I work with would order this test in face of VS/exam/pediatric radiation risk if positive.

Rosen sold out.

There aren't enough ER docs to go around, ruining the career of one because of bad luck does harm to the specialty.

'Tis better to be lucky than good.

Has the PERC rule been validated in the Pediatric population?????????
 
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The "under age 50" criterion should include those aged 0-18. Otherwise, the rule should read: "between ages 18 and 49".
 
Can't say that I'm loving this testimony, but (and I may be reading the court's brief incorrectly) perhaps there is a silver lining in that the opinion was not actually a final judgement against the physician--as in that he was found to truly have been "grossly negligent"--rather the opinion states that a reasonable jury may find him to have been grossly negligent and that the lower courts could not use the summary judgement to dismiss the case. A fine point to be sure, but nonetheless....

This is more than a fine point, it is critical to understanding the ramifications of this decision and it should make all of us breathe a little easier.

This case was decided on summary judgement. That means that the judge took the case away from the jury essentially holding that it would have been impossible for a reasonable jury to rule in the plaintiff's favor. It's unclear when this summary judgement was entered. It can either be done prior to a trial, based on depositions and affidavits, or it can be done after the plaintiff has presented all of his evidence at trial. When considering a case in this way, the judge must view all questions of fact and considerations of credibility completely in the plaintiff's favor. In other words, for a summary judgement motion, you really don't consider the defendants factual arguments at all. Here you have several "experts", including at least one textbook author who says that there was gross negligence. Thus, it's pretty hard for a judge to say that there was no way that a reasonable jury could have held for the plaintiff. The net effect of the precedent here is that the case must be tried before a jury. The plaintiff still must prove with "clear and convincing evidence" (a higher standard than the usual "preponderance of the evidence" standard") that the defendant committed "gross negligence" (a higher level that regular negligence"). Given your discussion here, I think that this will still be a difficult burden for the defendant to meet.

Ed
 
To the pre-meds, medical students and residents:

Is everyone clear as to what and in what amount, a physician is given by a plaintiff's attorney to review a case, and to testify in a deposition or trial as a witness against another physician (in general, not in reference to any specific physician or case)?
 
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To someone who has immediate access to the current edition of Rosen, how many mentions there are to pulmonary embolism, specifically in the Pediatric sections, and any other mentions of "pediatric pulmonary embolism"?
 
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To the pre-meds, medical students and residents:

Is everyone clear as to what and in what amount, a physician is given by a plaintiff's attorney to review a case, and to testify in a deposition or trial as a witness against another physician?

Lots of dollars, minimal information, I would guess.
 
Lots of dollars... I would guess.

How much do you think one of your current or former attendings or teachers might be offered to testify against you? Venture a guess. Throw a number out there, in a "dollars per hour" amount, which would include time spent reading the chart, time spent on the phone with the attorneys, time spent driving to the deposition or trial, time spent at the deposition or trial, with each and every last minute paid for.

How many dollars per hour to testify against a fellow physician? Just venture a guess.



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How much do you think? Venture a guess. Throw a number out there, in a "dollars per hour" amount, which would include time spent reading the chart, time spent on the phone with the attorneys, time spent driving to the deposition or trial, time spent at the deposition or trial, with each and every last minute paid for.

How many dollars per hour to testify against a fellow physician? Just venture a guess.



Sent from my iPhone using SDN Mobile

500/hr
 

You're not even close. You're not even in the same building as the real answer. You're talking about cases that could bring an attorney, millions.
 
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To testify for the plaintiff attorney, against one of your own? With your name on a textbook? Ha, ha, ha. Find someone else with their name on a textbook to take that. Try again. You're not even close.

Well, I know a couple of docs that do complete BS personal injury cases for the defense at $500/hr, so for a non-textbook editor doing med mal for the plaintiff, at least $1k/hr. For a textbook editor selling out his colleagues? No idea.
 
How many dollars per hour to testify against a fellow physician? Just venture a guess.

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If the physician community as a whole would unite and ostracize these physicians that testify against other physicians the whole malpractice climate would change. My question is why has somebody not wrote a article about Rosen coming out and doing this?
 
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If the physician community as a whole would unite and ostracize these physicians that testify against other physicians the whole malpractice climate would change. My question is why has somebody not wrote a article about Rosen coming out and doing this?


Good question. A similar question would be: "Why is there no active, updated and widely read site where information about physicians who act as plaintiff's experts?"

The answer is that the legal community with plaintiff's lawyers leading the way but with judges and even the defense attorneys along for the ride, don't want the system to change or for expert witnesses to be held up to peer scrutiny. Peer review and scrutiny involves professional knowledge, i.e. medical knowledge which attorneys don't have. Critically evaluating what these experts are saying outside the legal system takes power away from the attorneys and they don't want that. They want the process to be a legal one that happens in court with adversarial counselors getting paid to sort out what's allowed and what isn't.

Lawyers also believe that the right to sue is sacrosanct. While most agree that the right to tax equals the right to destroy lawyers don't agree that the right to sue is exactly the same. They see anything that limits the right to sue with impunity as a degradation of personal liberty as well as an attack on their jobs. That's why they fight tort reform, binding arbitration, no fault and other ideas that move malpractice farther from the civil court system. They don't want to allow any public shaming of their pool of potential witnesses.

Specifically to the above question they will lash back at any attempt to ostracize these experts. The "Remarkable Testimony" page at AAEM and others have attracted legal attention and threats. Physicians tend to be much more cowed by threats of litigation than attorneys for obvious reasons.
 
Good question. A similar question would be: "Why is there no active, updated and widely read site where information about physicians who act as plaintiff's experts?"

The answer is that the legal community with plaintiff's lawyers leading the way but with judges and even the defense attorneys along for the ride, don't want the system to change or for expert witnesses to be held up to peer scrutiny. Peer review and scrutiny involves professional knowledge, i.e. medical knowledge which attorneys don't have. Critically evaluating what these experts are saying outside the legal system takes power away from the attorneys and they don't want that. They want the process to be a legal one that happens in court with adversarial counselors getting paid to sort out what's allowed and what isn't.

Lawyers also believe that the right to sue is sacrosanct. While most agree that the right to tax equals the right to destroy lawyers don't agree that the right to sue is exactly the same. They see anything that limits the right to sue with impunity as a degradation of personal liberty as well as an attack on their jobs. That's why they fight tort reform, binding arbitration, no fault and other ideas that move malpractice farther from the civil court system. They don't want to allow any public shaming of their pool of potential witnesses.

Specifically to the above question they will lash back at any attempt to ostracize these experts. The "Remarkable Testimony" page at AAEM and others have attracted legal attention and threats. Physicians tend to be much more cowed by threats of litigation than attorneys for obvious reasons.

So what we need is a popular website to host a forum. In that forum, anonymous users can post this information. Threats against the website itself would be baseless, as site owners aren't responsible for forum comments of their users.

If I had a popular website, I would gladly create the forum.
 
So what we need is a popular website to host a forum. In that forum, anonymous users can post this information. Threats against the website itself would be baseless, as site owners aren't responsible for forum comments of their users.

If I had a popular website, I would gladly create the forum.
The website owners would get hit with cease and desist orders. I don't know if there's been any successful litigation but I do know there have been cases of lawyers going after websites for hosting content they didn't create that was considered libelous.
 
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