What else is there to do to improve?

[Ndcyciv]

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Ok, I basically found out I didn't get into med school the first time around and I'm not even sure if I've been wait listed. I'm not taking rejection very good though. Granted my MCAT sucked but I had a semi-good reason for it (I kind of took it on a one week break from school w/ finals the week before and no time to study). I know that's one thing I can improve on, but I'm horrible at standardized tests. My undergraduate GPA is around 3.8. However, my graduate GPA kind of stinks (Its around 2.99).
I guess why rejection hurts so bad is the fact that I beat out 1500 applicants to become a pharmacist (which i decided halfway through school and dealing with a very rare disease myself that I really hate being a pharmacist). I have much more clinical knowledge than any other applicant applying and have worked side-by-side with many of my would-be future professors and other doctors that have been preceptors. Each has attested to my ability but yet all I feel is that because my MCAT sucked (it was a 21) and my graduate GPA sucked cuz I spent 2 months in the hospital during an accelerated program and had to make up 9-10 exams in 4 days to keep up with my class (hey a C just made i passed it).
So I graduated with my class despite my setbacks, chose to try to find a happy place within pharmacy (which other than the paycheck, I can't find), and decided I really really really want to be a doctor. I wanted it more than anything and I wanted it for the reason of knowing how to be a patient and how you looked at like you are crazy.
Ok, I guess basically my question is, other than I can't retake pharmacy school and only way to improve my grade is to get a masters or another doctorate, would taking the MCAT really improve my chances of getting in. I did fairly well on the PCAT and can only see the MCAT getting me in for the statistics portion that every med school has to publish. I got called Dr on my graduation day and yet, I can't seem to advance in the field.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you

 

[Vee]

I'd say retake the MCAT, definitely. 21 is low even for DO schools. The graduate GPA is also low, but you seem to have extenuating circumstances for that.

And, no offense, but you seem to have a little bit of an attitude. You say you have more clinical knowledge than any of the other applicants, but you do realize that PAs and RNs apply to medical school, right? They have plenty of clinical exp. If that attitude came across to any of your interviewers (did you have interviews? you mention something about not being waitlisted, so I assume yes) it could also have hurt you.

Do you have strong LORs from some of the physicians that you have worked with? Did you apply to only allopathic schools or osteopathic ones as well?

 

[Ndcyciv]

No I didn't apply to DO school. I only wanted to be an MD. I went to pharmacy school with a DO school and PA school, sat on the admissions committee for the college and knew what candidates this particular DO school were looking for. ( I don't have much faith in PA's though) I'm sure I have some sort of attitude that I don't think I portrayed in my interview ( I only applied to one school btw). In my interview group, I had the dean of medicine's daughter, a phlebotamist, a person who was an EMT for 2 months and only a BLS certification, and a few liberal arts degree students looking for a "challenge". So yeah, based on my interview group, I did have a better clinical heads up than any of them. No i'm not an EMT but I am ACLS certified and have been part of stroke teams. They even had a tough time placing me with my interviewers since I had worked with so many people in my career (they have to remain unbiased). During one of my interviews, they actually offered me the chance to apply to be the pharmacology teacher instead of going to medial school there. I kind of felt rejected right then and there. Sure I'm good enough to teach future doctors but not be one of them.
My application wasn't as glowing as I would have liked it either. I had a bit of a struggle with AMCAS. They proceeded to recieve my transcripts, document and send me the email that they received them, then proceeded to lose them and put my application as a denial. After I sat there for months fighting with them and basically demanding either my application be finished or a return on my money, they decided they would allow my application to go through at the end of December, which then caused my supplemental application to be mailed late to me and having to scramble LOR's in 5 days. They were basically poorly done and very basic and the school told me since they knew what I went through with AMCAS, that it might not hurt me. So I had a little bit of extra faith in maybe those basic crappy LOR's might be ignored. Come to think of it, everything that could go wrong did go wrong with this attempt at medical school. Fighting w/ AMCAS, my LOR's sucking, my employer who should have the contract to build the university medial center was denied, and etc.

 

[Vee]

Well, get that MCAT up and apply broadly next time. To many schools. Try to contain the attitude that you say you know that you have. Also, apply as early as possible (secondaries too) and get some stronger LORs. That is something you could even be working on now, so everything will be ready to go ASAP when AMCAS opens up for the cycle that you apply for. Are you reapplying for the next one or taking some time?

 

[neurofreak]

dude, no offense, but you really have to change your attitude. just by reading your posts you come off as an arrogant know-it-all who seems to think that med schools are doing themselves a disservice by not admitting you. i would definitely retake the mcat and im sure with some studying you could at least pull it up a few points. and definitely apply to more than 1 school. this process is random most of the time and you don't want to go through all the trouble of applying if you aren't going to apply broadly.

and seriously, change your attitude. realize that everyone has their own circumstances and that you can try to put a positive spin on it instead of sounding like you're making excuses. work hard, apply broadly, stop complaining, and im sure you'll be fine.

 

[PepperMD]

dude, no offense, but you really have to change your attitude. just by reading your posts you come off as an arrogant know-it-all who seems to think that med schools are doing themselves a disservice by not admitting you. i would definitely retake the mcat and im sure with some studying you could at least pull it up a few points. and definitely apply to more than 1 school. this process is random most of the time and you don't want to go through all the trouble of applying if you aren't going to apply broadly.

and seriously, change your attitude. realize that everyone has their own circumstances and that you can try to put a positive spin on it instead of sounding like you're making excuses. work hard, apply broadly, stop complaining, and im sure you'll be fine.

I second this completely. If you're so much better than the rest of the applicants, why didn't you get in? And if you're supposedly "qualified to teach med students", why the super-low MCAT? Your attitude will most definitely be a deal breaker. It seems like you blame your failures on everybody but yourself which not only shows a lack of maturity, but also will impede your ability to take responsibility for the changes that must be made to succeed in this process. I hope what you learn from this is that perhaps you aren't God's gift to med school and that you need to work a little harder (apply early, apply to tons of schools, drop the entitlement attitude). I wish you luck.

 

[Johnny_D]

Because of your attitude, I shouldn't even reply, but I will anyway. Your MCAT sucks and so does your attitude. If you are as good as you think, you would be in med school now. Take a hard look at yourself, and your ego, and think again

 

[thewendster]

Agreed. Also, I don't like that you belittled the other interviewees in your group interview. Those artsy non-trads "looking for a challenge" wouldn't have been invited for an interview if the school didn't think they were interview material. Who are you to judge and insult other people? Most people would agree these are undesirable qualities in a doctor. Perhaps that is why you were weeded out.

Wendy
B.F.A NYU Film 2004

 

[relentless11]

My undergraduate GPA is around 3.8. However, my graduate GPA kind of stinks (Its around 2.99).

Although undergrad GPA tends to be "weighted" more, a 2.99 graduate GPA is a rarity among most graduate programs considering you are kicked out of the program for falling below a 3.0 GPA. It appears that you are a pharm student therefore this GPA has a double effect of being more "relavent" to med school coursework, and implies or at least can be "assumed" by the adcoms that you may not be able to handle the rigors of the med school curriculum. Ultimately one can say that you can handle it, but med schools want some kind of quantifiable measure of academic performance. As the saying goes, "action speak louder than words".

I have much more clinical knowledge than any other applicant applying and have worked side-by-side with many of my would-be future professors and other doctors that have been preceptors. Each has attested to my ability but yet all I feel is that because my MCAT sucked (it was a 21) and my graduate GPA sucked cuz I spent 2 months in the hospital during an accelerated program and had to make up 9-10 exams in 4 days to keep up with my class (hey a C just made i passed it).

I wouldn't assume that your clinical knowledge is superior to other applicants.
Although I have spent the last 6 years doing clinical research, including currently completing a clinically based PhD thesis at one of the the University of California med schools, I by no means consider myself ot have more clinical knowledge than any other applicant. For one, my undergraduate students who have faithfully served with me during the past years have some AMAZING experiences of their own. As a mentor for our summer fellowship, I have run into students from all over the US, who have insane clinical experience from all over the world. This of course doesn't include applicants who will have PhDs, RNs, PharmDs, DDS's before applying to med school.

I'm sorry to say that many professors, future professors and other people we meet during our academic life are quite ready to "attest" to our abilities. I have yet to see a person protest against a persons desire to become a physician. However, as stated before, its all about proof. The so called "evidence-based" nature of medicine applies here too. Words mean little, but numbers mean a lot. More importantly, studies have shown (see AAMC website) that a good MCAT score correlates well with good USMLE scores. Ultimately, USMLE scores are what gets you into a good residency program and in return, improves the prestige of your med school. Med schools want people to do well and to succeed, NOT just what kind of experiences you bring into their program.

Regardless of illness, personal abilities or poor planning, an MCAT score of 21 is beyond me. If you had taken the time to do a practice exam, then it should have provided you with enough early-warning to defer taking the test and improve your test-taking skills and/or knowledge in the material. I've been in this game for over a decade now (undergrad + postbacc + PhD). I've known people to have deaths in the family, have a child, raise a family, personal illness, and even deployment to a warzone, yet they still overcame these challenges to DO WELL. It might have taken them longer, but they're now in med school or have finished med school...many of which at a UC med school. Therefore what I'm getting at is is as unfortunate as it is, your past experiences mean little to justify your MCAT score. What justify's or redeems this issue is a GOOD MCAT score. The average MCAT score for students that get into med school in the US is a 30. In CA, its a 33-34, and I'm sure the Ivy league schools are around there too (if not higher). So you will have to at least show a 9 point improvement in its own right is a daunting task (not impossible though). On top of that, each section should have a decent score. So a 4, 13, 13 is dismal too.

Ok, I guess basically my question is, other than I can't retake pharmacy school and only way to improve my grade is to get a masters or another doctorate, would taking the MCAT really improve my chances of getting in. I did fairly well on the PCAT and can only see the MCAT getting me in for the statistics portion that every med school has to publish. I got called Dr on my graduation day and yet, I can't seem to advance in the field.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you

I'm not sure about doing a masters or doctorate, and both are not trivial ventures in their own right, but most certainly the MCAT is important. Nearly all med schools that I know of treat undergrad GPA and MCAT EQUALLY. Doing well in one does not make up for the other, and any amount of clinical experience never makes up for poor grades/MCAT scores.

The PCAT and the MCAT, as you already know now are not the same, and i'm not sure what you mean by the statistics portion of the MCAT. Do you mean the descriptive statistics reported by each med school (e.g., admissions statistics?). I'm not sure what that has to do with the MCAT issue. I don't mean this to be inflammatory and I take full responsibility for saying it, but any english speaking person who has a solid foundation in the basic pre-med sciences can get a 24-26 on the MCAT. This is why the average MCAT score in the nation is around there, and this is why schools such as University of California have a MCAT cut-off of around 24-26. As stated on numerous threads, you aren't competing against yourself, but you are competing against the NEXT best applicant...and in this case, there are MANY applicants which have the numbers, AND the experience too boot. It amazes me how students continue to do better and better each year. Not to mention the greater amount of clinical experiences that are offered at each university. So don't put too much stake in your experiences being superior to others...because the end result may be a tad disheartening for you.

 

[Ndcyciv]

Ok, guess I learned my error of my ways. I agree with all of you with portraying that I have an attitude problem. I was more angry with rejection and at myself for not trying harder and portrayed it in a very egotistical light. I didn't mean to belittle anyone nor did I mean to have a "holier than thou" attitude. I knew I needed to redo my MCAT, which I have plans for doing in May again and studying for it seriously this time. However, with my GPA in pharmacy school, there is no way to improve it. Being it a 3 year accelerated program utilizing quarters instead of semesters, I was in the hospital during my 1st year of pharmacy school and no matter how hard I tried to make-up the grades, I couldn't.
I have delved down deep to think about all the things that I did wrong. I don't think I portrayed myself in my interviews as a pompous ass but I probably did portray myself as a pissed off patient. My whole plight to change careers was more driven by my experience as being a patient than it was a life-long dream. I know what it feels like to be dismissed by doctors. To be going blind and be in pain and having doctors tell me that I there is nothing for them to do. I, as a patient, became more proactice and forced my own physicians to treat me as a human being and not a test case. In case you are all wondering, I have idiopathic intracranial hypertension or pseudotumor cerebri. I have been in remission for 3 years now, but I still have that bitter taste of being a patient and I think that's where I screwed up.
I really do want to be a physician, mainly for reasons to try to help people not make them all crazy. There are aspects of pharmacy that I love to do, but mostly I just hear about how their doctor blows them off. I know doctors have a huge work load due to HMO's and managed care. But I work in a hospital and most physicians I meet have that "holier than thou" attitude. And I know officially, that I had that attitude myself for being pissed off for my short-comings.
Therefore, I want to apologize for anyone I might have pissed off or belittled in my pursuit to be pissed off at myself but not blaming the right person. I know what it feels like to be belittled in the health care profession and it sucks. So, I am apologizing for offending anyone and truly did not mean any of it.
Thank you

 

[Vee]

I have the same disease that you do. It didn't stop me from getting accepted to more than one school this year.

 

[kuangwchang]

Ya, def retake the MCAT. A 21 is extremely low when compared to the rest of the competive applicants. Your advanced degree allows you to stand out against the rest, but not enough to make up for a 21 MCAT, especially with that Grad GPA. Also whenever you write your PS, mention why the GPA is so low, but don't dwell on it. PS's which focus on tramatic events, I've heard aren't too appealing to adcoms. Mention it, how it strengthed you etc, then move onto something else.

 

[Ndcyciv]

I have the same disease that you do. It didn't stop me from getting accepted to more than one school this year.

I applaud you that you have the same disease that I do and got into one or more schools this year. How long have you been diagnosed with it and how severe was your case? I have dealt with many people who have this disease that are luckier and worse off than me, so please don't sound snotty about you getting in and me not because we have the same disease. It's just the impression you gave, but I still applaud you that you overcame adversity with this rare disease.

 

[beanbean]

I am frankly quite surprised you even received an interview given the state of your application: low grad gpa, very poor MCAT, not the best LORs, and the AMCAS screwup, etc.

Positives: Undergrad gpa is fine and you have a good reason for your grad gpa being lower. Clinical exposure.

Negatives: MCAT is way too low. You need to get some practice tests and maybe a review course. The test is a beast so don't underestimate it like you did the first time. LORs If they are good they don't really help or hurt you, if they are poor in quality or too vague they can really hurt your application. Try to get a mix of academic and clinical letters. Grad gpa; like you said, it is what it is. I would address this in your personal statement when discussing your past health issue. You can write a very captivating and compelling essay for what it was like to go from a 3.8 student to one struggling to pass and how you overcame these difficulties. Strength of character can be demonstrated by telling of your decision to continue with an acclerated program and not withdraw despite the hardship. Clinical Experience: How much volunteer experience do you have? I worked as a biomedical engineer in a hospital for 6 yrs and had +15 yrs volunteer EMS and still did the requisite shadowing. Personal Statement/Essays/Interview: Complaining about the medical profession will certainly not earn you any points. People will interpret this as "I want to be a doctor because other doctors have treated me badly" Not the best reason and makes it look like you have a chip on your shoulder. Focus on the positive aspects of your experiences and how your feelings of frustration and fear re: the difficulties treating your disease makes you more empathetic to patients. etc.

Don't apply until you have everything in order and apply early (assuming lightening (AMCAS) doesn't strike twice!

 

[silas2642]

I'd say retake the MCAT, definitely. 21 is low even for DO schools. The graduate GPA is also low, but you seem to have extenuating circumstances for that.

And, no offense, but you seem to have a little bit of an attitude. You say you have more clinical knowledge than any of the other applicants, but you do realize that PAs and RNs apply to medical school, right? They have plenty of clinical exp. If that attitude came across to any of your interviewers (did you have interviews? you mention something about not being waitlisted, so I assume yes) it could also have hurt you.

Do you have strong LORs from some of the physicians that you have worked with? Did you apply to only allopathic schools or osteopathic ones as well?

Oh yeah, and get over the "only MD" attitude. First of all, as you know, you've got a couple of serious strikes going against you-- you come off as a pompous dingus who thinks he's better than everyone else and is entitled to a seat in medical school despite the fact that he hasn't earned it, a quality, I might add, that is not attractive to adcoms. Second, you have a super-low mcat score that is going to raise some serious doubts about whether or not you are going to be able to pass your boards. Third, you have a low gpa from pharmacy school which is an indication that med school might be difficult for you and that other candidates might be better qualified. These are some serious hurdles to overcome.

So if you really want to become a doctor I would really get that mcat score up to the mid-30's, lose the attitude, apply really early, apply broadly, apply to DO schools, consider the Caribbean if the mcat doesn't go well for the second time, and if you don't make it, then it wasn't meant to be. Not everyone gets to be a physician. Finally, start taking responsibility for your actions-- stop making excuses for everything and own up for to your mistakes because that is what good physicians are supposed to do.

 

[Critical Mass]

Granted my MCAT sucked but I had a semi-good reason for it (I kind of took it on a one week break from school w/ finals the week before and no time to study). I know that's one thing I can improve on, but I'm horrible at standardized tests.

Adcoms don't consider any excuses for a low MCAT. The number of applicants that they have prevents them from having to do so.

Do they still have the option whereby you can cancel your score if you want to before you turn the test in?

Best advice--practice taking standardized tests. Medicine is a series of standardized tests.

 

[relentless11]

Adcoms don't consider any excuses for a low MCAT. The number of applicants that they have prevents them from having to do so.

Just to show an example of this statement. I talked to a DO student who had a good GPA. However due to some unforseen incident, he missed MCAT day (back when it was not computer based). To apply on time, he had to fly to England (YES ENGLAND) to take their version of the MCAT which was apparently acceptable among the US med schools. Due to this trauma, he didn't do too hot on the UK MCAT. The allopathic med schools were not forgiving.

Anyway, the next year, he applied to DO programs as well, and now totally enjoys the DO program. It was "beyond" his expectations. So this also highlights how DO programs are no different then MD programs in terms of training, but one may find the DO teaching philosophy to be even better. I think when someone states that they intend to apply to ONLY MD schools without giving a legit reason shows some flaw in thinking anyway, which explains why one may have problems applying.

I do admit that I am applying ONLY to MD schools too, BUT, the MD schools which I will apply to have research that interests me the most. More than happy to apply DO, but the academic environment at MD schools such as University of California are ideal to me (heck, i'm already at UC Davis!). Not the letters after my name😉.

 

[Tired Pigeon]

Adcoms don't consider any excuses for a low MCAT. The number of applicants that they have prevents them from having to do so.

Exactly. There are plenty of people who have various circumstances (multiple other obligations, no time to study, sick as a dog on test day, haven't taken all prerequisites, etc.) that still manage to at least break 30.

 

[Faze2]

One school huh? That says a lot there. Remeber there are people with 3.9 gpa/30+ MCATs/good EC/shadowing/etc that don't get accepted everywhere. You gotta apply to more than one school.

 

[RollWave11]

21 MCAT? MD Schools Only? Poor Graduate GPA and nothing that really sets you apart from anyone else applying (at least on paper)?

You have to jump up about 10 points on that MCAT and write a great PS to explain your graduate GPA and your motivation before you'll have a solid shot at admissions. I understand your pain at being snubbed on your first attempt (I've been through it), but so many have been through this situation. Get over it. You KNEW you were a subpar applicant going in, are you really that surprised?

 

[Vee]

I applaud you that you have the same disease that I do and got into one or more schools this year. How long have you been diagnosed with it and how severe was your case? I have dealt with many people who have this disease that are luckier and worse off than me, so please don't sound snotty about you getting in and me not because we have the same disease. It's just the impression you gave, but I still applaud you that you overcame adversity with this rare disease.

I've had it for about a year. I spent a few days in the hospital when I was diagnosed and I have some permanent damage to my right eye. The pressure is still elevated and if it isn't down by next month I'll have to have a shunt placed. But I'm fine, other than the headaches. I just get tired easily.

I wasn't being snotty, it just seems that you have an excuse for everything.

 

[QuakerPreMed]

Forget the attitude, forget the low MCAT, forget the graduate GPA and whatever you wrote your PS on. You applied to ONE school? I wouldn't have applied to one school with a 45 MCAT and a 4.0 from Yale (not that I did, nor do I go to Yale. You get the idea, though). Adcoms are WAY WAY WAY too unpredictable. Fix your MCAT and apply to at least 15 schools and you'll probably get in.

 

[RollWave11]

Wow. Just wow.

 

[MJB]

I want the OP to continue posting...this is highly entertaining stuff...

 

[PepperMD]

I want the OP to continue posting...this is highly entertaining stuff...

If you haven't seen them yet, you should check out some of sunshinesunny's posts. Seriously hilarious stuff.

 

[voltron77]

Ok, guess I learned my error of my ways. I agree with all of you with portraying that I have an attitude problem. I was more angry with rejection and at myself for not trying harder and portrayed it in a very egotistical light. I didn't mean to belittle anyone nor did I mean to have a "holier than thou" attitude. I knew I needed to redo my MCAT, which I have plans for doing in May again and studying for it seriously this time. However, with my GPA in pharmacy school, there is no way to improve it. Being it a 3 year accelerated program utilizing quarters instead of semesters, I was in the hospital during my 1st year of pharmacy school and no matter how hard I tried to make-up the grades, I couldn't.
I have delved down deep to think about all the things that I did wrong. I don't think I portrayed myself in my interviews as a pompous ass but I probably did portray myself as a pissed off patient. My whole plight to change careers was more driven by my experience as being a patient than it was a life-long dream. I know what it feels like to be dismissed by doctors. To be going blind and be in pain and having doctors tell me that I there is nothing for them to do. I, as a patient, became more proactice and forced my own physicians to treat me as a human being and not a test case. In case you are all wondering, I have idiopathic intracranial hypertension or pseudotumor cerebri. I have been in remission for 3 years now, but I still have that bitter taste of being a patient and I think that's where I screwed up.
I really do want to be a physician, mainly for reasons to try to help people not make them all crazy. There are aspects of pharmacy that I love to do, but mostly I just hear about how their doctor blows them off. I know doctors have a huge work load due to HMO's and managed care. But I work in a hospital and most physicians I meet have that "holier than thou" attitude. And I know officially, that I had that attitude myself for being pissed off for my short-comings.
Therefore, I want to apologize for anyone I might have pissed off or belittled in my pursuit to be pissed off at myself but not blaming the right person. I know what it feels like to be belittled in the health care profession and it sucks. So, I am apologizing for offending anyone and truly did not mean any of it.
Thank you

I would agree with retaking the MCAT again and aiming for a better score. Also, continue with some medical volunteering and continuing to show that interest in medicine. Also, what schools did you apply to? Did you apply to a good mix of lower tier, middle tier schools, etc?

 

[spicedmanna]

Also, what schools did you apply to? Did you apply to a good mix of lower tier, middle tier schools, etc?

The OP apparently applied to only one medical school.