What ethnicity am I under the AAMC?

[rkaz]

Yeah plus the point is that as an Arab-African you would never face the same prejudices as a Black-African...actually in a lot of North African countries the Arabs are very prejudice against Blacks. So to even consider trying to take advantage of a program that is put there to help those of us out who actually need it would put you on bad terms at the medical school and with any actual URMs. You don't want that drama homie.

This is an interesting point. I similarly don't think it's fair when I see Caucasians who are 1/8 or 1/16 Native American, or Hispanic or whatever list themselves as one of those minority groups to improve admissions chances by being classified as URM... as they look white and haven't faced the discrimination associated with such groups.

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[cbrons]

This is an interesting point. I similarly don't think it's fair when I see Caucasians who are 1/8 or 1/16 Native American, or Hispanic or whatever list themselves as one of those minority groups to improve admissions chances by being classified as URM... as they look white and haven't faced the discrimination associated with such groups.

I feel bad for gay people, as they are by far the most discriminated minority, far more than any ethnic group.

Also being white doesn't mean you won't be discriminated against. For example, I served as the vice president of our college chapter of the NAACP this past semester. When we went to our state convention, one of our faculty members approached our adviser and President, saying that they "include too many whites" in the organization. Of course this tenured faculty member experience no repercussions whatsoever (I laugh when I think about the situation happening if it was a white woman complaining about too many "blacks" in an organization... I'm sure the end-result would've been the same /sarcasm/). I suppose that sort of discrimination is TOTALLY acceptable though, since its being done against a white male.

Also, I don't know if you found this out yet but there are poor white people out there too that get labeled as "white trash" all of the time. I live in a rural area where this is common. I guess they don't deserve any leg-up in the process though either, while a rich black/Mexican/insert-minority-group-here kid from the suburbs gets a "special status." The point here is not to take issue with the fact that minorities can claim URM status, its to take issue with what you seem to imply - that all minorities are discriminated against and whites are never discriminated against.

Also, there are "white" people with accents... like many of my relatives who come from the countryside in Ireland. Or my neighbors, who are from Russia who barely speak any English.

The point is, discrimination is about more than just the color of your skin.

Your statement suggests white people don't experience any discrimination when in fact you are incorrect. I think my examples outline that for you.

And I don't want to get into a URM argument with anyone, because I don't care. I'm simply addressing his line about white people not experiencing any discrimination and nothing further or less.


AND also... the whole URM thing doesn't have anything to do with discrimination. As ChemEngMD has already said, it was put in place so that different racial/ethinic groups get more doctors in their community who are of that racial/ethnic group. Its not equivalent to affirmative action. And so by discussing discrimination you are discussing a completely different topic that has nothing to do with URM.

 

[angrypremed]

Other Non-Hispanic or Latino Race <--- not really an "other" box

 

[scarletgirl777]

You can claim "disadvantaged" and explain why you feel you are disadvantaged...be it due to your family income or the fact that you had to teach yourself English. Your parents being immigrants was probably a disadvantage but how would that be anymore than someone from Bosnia or from Russia having to learn English. "URM" is not equivalent to "disadvantaged." How many times we gotta put this out there?

How many indeed? I think it's wilful ignorance--people just don't read.

 

[ProLogic]

Wait.. being a minority improves your chances in getting into a medical school?

 

[Raryn]

Other Non-Hispanic or Latino Race <--- not really an "other" box

Yes it is.

There are two boxes for AMCAS

One of which is "Race" which includes White/African American/Asian American/Hawaiian or Pacific Islander/Other

The other is ethnicity, for which you select "Hispanic" or "Non-Hispanic."

So if you select Other, then you select "Non-Hispanic" you would be put in the category "Other Non-Hispanic"

 

[ChemEngMD]

I believe that under the Census, middle eastern people are counted as 'Caucasian'. I do have a question though, I'm counted as Hispanic/Latino but always put down 'Decline to state'. If I ever do take the MCAT (deciding on whether to go for my 4-year after CC) are there any sort of drawbacks?

If you are Hispanic of specifically Puerto Rican or Mexican background then you are given the title of "URM" which is "Under-Represented Minority." Like previously stated this also applies to Native Americans and African-Americans. This status is given to populations whose groups are severely under-represented in the medical field in comparison to their represenation in the general population. This status will help some in the process of admittance, how much depends on the school. You are best to put down what you are and then get as high of grades as possible.

 

[ChemEngMD]

I feel bad for gay people, as they are by far the most discriminated minority, far more than any ethnic group.

Also being white doesn't mean you won't be discriminated against. For example, I served as the vice president of our college chapter of the NAACP this past semester. When we went to our state convention, one of our faculty members approached our adviser and President, saying that they "include too many whites" in the organization. Of course this tenured faculty member experience no repercussions whatsoever (I laugh when I think about the situation happening if it was a white woman complaining about too many "blacks" in an organization... I'm sure the end-result would've been the same /sarcasm/). I suppose that sort of discrimination is TOTALLY acceptable though, since its being done against a white male.

Also, I don't know if you found this out yet but there are poor white people out there too that get labeled as "white trash" all of the time. I live in a rural area where this is common. I guess they don't deserve any leg-up in the process though either, while a rich black/Mexican/insert-minority-group-here kid from the suburbs gets a "special status." The point here is not to take issue with the fact that minorities can claim URM status, its to take issue with what you seem to imply - that all minorities are discriminated against and whites are never discriminated against.

Also, there are "white" people with accents... like many of my relatives who come from the countryside in Ireland. Or my neighbors, who are from Russia who barely speak any English.

The point is, discrimination is about more than just the color of your skin.

Your statement suggests white people don't experience any discrimination when in fact you are incorrect. I think my examples outline that for you.

And I don't want to get into a URM argument with anyone, because I don't care. I'm simply addressing his line about white people not experiencing any discrimination and nothing further or less.


AND also... the whole URM thing doesn't have anything to do with discrimination. As ChemEngMD has already said, it was put in place so that different racial/ethinic groups get more doctors in their community who are of that racial/ethnic group. Its not equivalent to affirmative action. And so by discussing discrimination you are discussing a completely different topic that has nothing to do with URM.

I agree with you as far as feeling bad for gay people because they are HEAVILY discriminated against. And what's worse is that they have to hide what they are in a lot of cases just to not be discriminated against, unlike those of us who are racial/ethnic minorities and are obviously picked out as such.

As far as discrimination against white people, I understand that it's there and I acknowledge that, but you have to admit it's just not on the same level in most cases man. I understand where you're coming from and reverse racism sucks and all, but white people are never portrayed negatively as a whole race through the media or made to look incapable/ignorant so that masses of people will give you this generalization. Yeah, white people can get a bad rap at times, but the typical day in day out racist stuff that we go through is something y'all more than likely will never have to deal with...so when something like your situation happens it makes you go "woah, what the hell?" where as if it happened to us we'd probably just look at it as just another day as a minority. It sucks, but it's true.

 

[rkaz]

I feel bad for gay people, as they are by far the most discriminated minority, far more than any ethnic group.

Also being white doesn't mean you won't be discriminated against. For example, I served as the vice president of our college chapter of the NAACP this past semester. When we went to our state convention, one of our faculty members approached our adviser and President, saying that they "include too many whites" in the organization. Of course this tenured faculty member experience no repercussions whatsoever (I laugh when I think about the situation happening if it was a white woman complaining about too many "blacks" in an organization... I'm sure the end-result would've been the same /sarcasm/). I suppose that sort of discrimination is TOTALLY acceptable though, since its being done against a white male.

Also, I don't know if you found this out yet but there are poor white people out there too that get labeled as "white trash" all of the time. I live in a rural area where this is common. I guess they don't deserve any leg-up in the process though either, while a rich black/Mexican/insert-minority-group-here kid from the suburbs gets a "special status." The point here is not to take issue with the fact that minorities can claim URM status, its to take issue with what you seem to imply - that all minorities are discriminated against and whites are never discriminated against.

Also, there are "white" people with accents... like many of my relatives who come from the countryside in Ireland. Or my neighbors, who are from Russia who barely speak any English.

The point is, discrimination is about more than just the color of your skin.

Your statement suggests white people don't experience any discrimination when in fact you are incorrect. I think my examples outline that for you.

And I don't want to get into a URM argument with anyone, because I don't care. I'm simply addressing his line about white people not experiencing any discrimination and nothing further or less.


AND also... the whole URM thing doesn't have anything to do with discrimination. As ChemEngMD has already said, it was put in place so that different racial/ethinic groups get more doctors in their community who are of that racial/ethnic group. Its not equivalent to affirmative action. And so by discussing discrimination you are discussing a completely different topic that has nothing to do with URM.

Um, I don't disagree with anything you have written here... I absolutely agree with you that whites who are low socio-economic status may be more disadvantaged than a URM from a wealthy family. I was simply stating that people should represent their race/ethnicities fairly... and not claim URM status when they only contain a small percentage of ethnic blood and are essentially non-URM (especially if they look white). Race and disadvantaged status are 2 separate questions on the AMCAS application... so you can certainly claim your race as Caucasian while still saying 'yes' to the disadvantaged question.

 

[rkaz]

Wait.. being a minority improves your chances in getting into a medical school?

I'm not sure if you are being cynical or not, but yes, in many cases being URM does give an applicant a leg up in the process... especially if you belong to a group that is very underrepresented in medicine. For instance, there is a HUGE shortage of Native American physicians. So understandably, med schools want to increase numbers of Native American students enrolled, so that they can pump our more of Native docs to serve Native American populations (as they'd presumably be more sensitive to issues related to their communities). If someone wants to get the benefits associated with being Native American in the admissions process, that person should be required to provide tribal documentation to AMCAS. Otherwise, a blonde blue-eyed person claiming Native American ethnicity (for being 1/16th Native American) shouldn't receive any extra racial/ethnic advantage in the admissions process.

 

[ProLogic]

If you are Hispanic of specifically Puerto Rican or Mexican background then you are given the title of "URM" which is "Under-Represented Minority." Like previously stated this also applies to Native Americans and African-Americans. This status is given to populations whose groups are severely under-represented in the medical field in comparison to their represenation in the general population. This status will help some in the process of admittance, how much depends on the school. You are best to put down what you are and then get as high of grades as possible.

Yes, I'm an American of Mexican descent. Both of my parents are immigrants from Mexico. I also have one MD in my family (In Mexico) that practices FM. Thank you for the information.

I'm not sure if you are being cynical or not, but yes, in many cases being URM does give an applicant a leg up in the process... especially if you belong to a group that is very underrepresented in medicine. For instance, there is a HUGE shortage of Native American physicians. So understandably, med schools want to increase numbers of Native American students enrolled, so that they can pump our more of Native docs to serve Native American populations (as they'd presumably be more sensitive to issues related to their communities). If someone wants to get the benefits associated with being Native American in the admissions process, that person should be required to provide tribal documentation to AMCAS. Otherwise, a blonde blue-eyed person claiming Native American ethnicity (for being 1/16th Native American) shouldn't receive any extra racial/ethnic advantage in the admissions process.

No I'm not being cynical, just curious. Sorry if it came out like I was . Thank you for the information though .

 

[IDoIt4Love]

Yeah plus the point is that as an Arab-African you would never face the same prejudices as a Black-African...actually in a lot of North African countries the Arabs are very prejudice against Blacks. So to even consider trying to take advantage of a program that is put there to help those of us out who actually need it would put you on bad terms at the medical school and with any actual URMs. You don't want that drama homie.

Because nobody is prejudiced towards Middle-Easterners these days, right?

Also, for North Africans raised in America, the situational mistreatment of Black Africans in Africa is irrelevant. No American should be blamed for or associated with the bad things their country of ethnicity does. Their parents left for a reason.

If you're Egyptian, Algerian, Moroccan, etc, and you are also an American, then you're African-American. You're African, and you're American. It's pretty simple. And why would that put you on bad terms with other URMs? It's not like they're going to be reading your application. Also:

Originally Posted by ChemEngMD
"URM" is not equivalent to "disadvantaged." How many times we gotta put this out there?

Perhaps the confusion lies in the fact that the previous quote implies that discriminated people (discrimination = a disadvantage) are thus deserving of a program that gives them a leg up in the admissions process.

 

[flip26]

Because nobody is prejudiced towards Middle-Easterners these days, right?

If you're Egyptian, Algerian, Moroccan, etc, and you are also an American, then you're African-American. You're African, and you're American. It's pretty simple. And why would that put you on bad terms with other URMs? It's not like they're going to be reading your application.

I don't think it's fair, either, to judge who "needs" an admissions boost or not. There are plenty of people out there who have lived a hard life or whose parents are first-generation immigrants (even war refugees) with little support, just trying to make it in this country, and they certainly don't receive any special admissions boost for that.

Nothing is ever that simple.

the underlined is WRONG...but thanks for playing!

 

[ChemEngMD]

Because nobody is prejudiced towards Middle-Easterners these days, right?

If you're Egyptian, Algerian, Moroccan, etc, and you are also an American, then you're African-American. You're African, and you're American. It's pretty simple. And why would that put you on bad terms with other URMs? It's not like they're going to be reading your application.

I don't think it's fair, either, to judge who "needs" an admissions boost or not. There are plenty of people out there who have lived a hard life or whose parents are first-generation immigrants (even war refugees) with little support, just trying to make it in this country, and they certainly don't receive any special admissions boost for that.

Nothing is ever that simple.

If you read my previous posts you would have seen that I acknowledged that Middle Easterns, especially Muslims, do definitely face issues concerning being discriminated against. I am a part of the Muslim Student Association at my school and I fully understand all of this...so don't jump to conclusions.

As for being a "African-American" of Arabic descent, that is ridiculous. If you were born in South Africa to parents of Dutch/English ancestry you have no right putting down "African-American" when your family immigrates to the United States. You know damn well what that term means which is why I prefer the term black ahead of it. Don't be unnecessarily ridiculous. URM is there to help out communities that need doctors and better healthcare options...that's why they help out people of that descent, not due to prejudices they go through...even though those are inevitable too.

 

[bozz]

"If you're Egyptian, Algerian, Moroccan, etc, and you are also an American, then you're African-American. You're African, and you're American. It's pretty simple."

Seems pretty simple to me too. They are answering the question being asked. You don't have to have black skin to qualify. But if you REALLY want to use the weak color argument, I know several people from Egypt and Algeria that aren't "black" but who are pretty damn far from being Caucasian-looking.

Anyone who disagrees is simply being insecure and a little too presumptuous :/

Let's say the box had a clause saying, "Only select this box if you are a URM who has faced a significant amount of discrimination in your life," that wouldn't work either. I know several wealthy "Blacks" who've done well their whole life. Would they qualify?

Lesson: Just answer the damn question and stop thinking too much.

 

[ChemEngMD]

"If you're Egyptian, Algerian, Moroccan, etc, and you are also an American, then you're African-American. You're African, and you're American. It's pretty simple."

Seems pretty simple to me too. They are answering the question being asked. You don't have to have black skin to qualify. But if you REALLY want to use the weak color argument, I know several people from Egypt and Algeria that aren't "black" but who are pretty damn far from being Caucasian-looking.

Anyone who disagrees is simply insecure and a little too presumptuous :/

You know, just like anybody else who has lived in this country before knows, that it is not that simple of question, and if y'all wanna play those games then AMCAS should change it to "black" instead of "african-american" because guess what...50 years ago there was no "african-american" there was "black" or there was "negro"...either of which Arabs from North Africa would not have been putting down on any census. It is not presumptuous because like stated before "URM" status is put in place to help out underserved communities...namely Black, Hispanic, and Native American

 

[Dr Lyss]

I agree that the AAMC needs to update the race & ethnic options available -- not only for middle eastern countries and all of the other groups that don't easily fit into the categories presented but also for people who identify with multiple races/ethnicities (there is no multiracial option on AMCAS). Maybe for the new year they will get with the times.

However, in terms of the African American topic, I think it is pretty clear in America that African American is not the same as someone with African origins (especially North African) because they are NOT underrepresented in medicine. Completely different experiences & hardships & perspectives. I fear that this would be a way for many schools to claim they are admitting many "african americans" URMs but in reality are not.

 

[bozz]

You know, just like anybody else who has lived in this country before knows, that it is not that simple of question, and if y'all wanna play those games then AMCAS should change it to "black" instead of "african-american" because guess what...50 years ago there was no "african-american" there was "black" or there was "negro"...either of which Arabs from North Africa would not have been putting down on any census. It is not presumptuous because like stated before "URM" status is put in place to help out underserved communities...namely Black, Hispanic, and Native American

I don't think it's playing games at all. Why should an Egyptian-American who has pride for his continent not put "African American" down. It's not his job to figure out the whole underserved communities thing or care for it IMO. He's just answering the question.

Wouldn't you agree that it's the admissions officer's job to decide if the applicant is actually a URM? After sending the AMCAS in, everything is out of our hands. If they want to give an Egyptian-American URM status, that's their business. If they don't, that's their business as well.

 

[Dr Lyss]

I don't think it's playing games at all. Why should an Egyptian-American who has pride for his continent not put "African American" down. It's not his job to figure out the whole underserved communities thing or care for it IMO. He's just answering the question.

Wouldn't you agree that it's the admissions officer's job to decide if the applicant is actually a URM?

I'm pretty sure you are automatically designated a URM by your designation on AMCAS. So if you were accepted as an African American then you would be boosting the number of URMs. hey if you have no problem with it rock your socks off but you should know the implications.

 

[htownpremie]

i think anyone in this forum who truly considers him or herself to be thoughtful about issues of race, gender, sexuality, class, etc. should be really careful about trying to compare oppression and the relative severity of its manifestations--in the end it serves no useful purpose. the truth is the assumptions and stereotypes are part of a larger more complex system of multiple dimensions that affects everyone, and we (thoughtful folk) should be working to dismantle it together. that's all, off my soapbox.

 

[ChemEngMD]

I'm pretty sure you are automatically designated a URM by your designation on AMCAS. So if you were accepted as an African American then you would be boosting the number of URMs. hey if you have no problem with it rock your socks off but you should know the implications.

Exactly...if you want to do it, just understand what you're doing and don't pretend to play some ignorant card as if you didn't know what the term "African-American" means in the context of this country.

And YES it automatically makes you URM if you put down Puerto Rican, Mexican, African-American, or Native-American...it doesn't take into account whether you are playing games with the system. I'm just saying if you put down African-American when you are of Arabic North African ancestry or White South African ancestry...you might have some questions to answer when you get to your interview. Especially if they put you with the other URMs interviewing for a special session, with the Dean of Minority Affairs, other current URM Med Students, or African American professors at the school. Just know what you're getting yourself in to.

 

[jungli]

where all my ayy-rabzz attt

Nari nareinn
Nari minn gamaloo.
Nari nareinn
Alby eih garaloo

Men nazra, khadny fe la7za,
Dobna ehna sawa.
7abibi dah.

 

[AspiringOne]

Exactly...if you want to do it, just understand what you're doing and don't pretend to play some ignorant card as if you didn't know what the term "African-American" means in the context of this country.

And YES it automatically makes you URM if you put down Puerto Rican, Mexican, African-American, or Native-American...it doesn't take into account whether you are playing games with the system. I'm just saying if you put down African-American when you are of Arabic North African ancestry or White South African ancestry...you might have some questions to answer when you get to your interview. Especially if they put you with the other URMs interviewing for a special session, with the Dean of Minority Affairs, other current URM Med Students, or African American professors at the school. Just know what you're getting yourself in to.

That's right, you MAY have some questions to answer. In which case you explain how the AMCAS severely limits how one can represent their heritage and that they specify that race is SELF-DETERMINED. Thus, a North African who doesn't consider himself/herself 100% white chose to select both white and african-american. It's like the correct answer is 1.5 but the only choices available are 1 and 2. If you can explain your reasoning for your choices, then you will be fine. But if you look completely white and have South African ancestry, then it'll be obvious you're playing the system.

Power to my North African brothers. Personally, I think the AMCAS should just ask what countries your parents were born in and what country you were born in. And, they should ask for a photo. Then they can decide where you fit.

 

[Jolie South]

That's right, you MAY have some questions to answer. In which case you explain how the AMCAS severely limits how one can represent their heritage and that they specify that race is SELF-DETERMINED. Thus, a North African who doesn't consider himself/herself 100% white chose to select both white and african-american. It's like the correct answer is 1.5 but the only choices available are 1 and 2. If you can explain your reasoning for your choices, then you will be fine. But if you look completely white and have South African ancestry, then it'll be obvious you're playing the system.

Power to my North African brothers. Personally, I think the AMCAS should just ask what countries your parents were born in and what country you were born in. And, they should ask for a photo. Then they can decide where you fit.

To play devil's advocate, what is a white South African supposed to be called? They have generations of ancestors that lived in Africa. They grew up in Africa. They are far removed from Europe and don't identify with it.

 

[ChemEngMD]

To play devil's advocate, what is a white South African supposed to be called? They have generations of ancestors that lived in Africa. They grew up in Africa. They are far removed from Europe and don't identify with it.

They are "caucasian" just like Arabic North Africans are "caucasian" and Arabic ppl from the Middle East are too. If you are a Sudanese or Egyptian Arab how are you any more African American than a Saudi Arabian Arab? A few hundred miles doesn't change your race.

It is "self determined" but answer this...would you walk up to a group of black people and say that you were "African American"? Do you honestly relate to the title "African American"? Are you willing to own up and take all of the BAD along with the good that comes with it?

 

[Jolie South]

They are "caucasian" just like Arabic North Africans are "caucasian" and Arabic ppl from the Middle East are too. If you are a Sudanese or Egyptian Arab how are you any more African American than a Saudi Arabian Arab? A few hundred miles doesn't change your race.

It is "self determined" but answer this...would you walk up to a group of black people and say that you were "African American"? Do you honestly relate to the title "African American"? Are you willing to own up and take all of the BAD along with the good that comes with it?

To me, the term African implies a cultural construct in addition "racial" one. Ask my native African husband what he thinks about African Americans calling themselves that.

It has different meanings to different people and applying your American "eyes" to the situation doesn't make your definition of the word the only true one.

 

[AspiringOne]

They are "caucasian" just like Arabic North Africans are "caucasian" and Arabic ppl from the Middle East are too. If you are a Sudanese or Egyptian Arab how are you any more African American than a Saudi Arabian Arab? A few hundred miles doesn't change your race.

It is "self determined" but answer this...would you walk up to a group of black people and say that you were "African American"? Do you honestly relate to the title "African American"? Are you willing to own up and take all of the BAD along with the good that comes with it?

I wouldn't walk up to a group of white people and say I was white either. Like I said, the problem is with the application, and it should be for the schools to decide.

 

[ChemEngMD]

To me, the term African implies a cultural construct in addition "racial" one. Ask my native African husband what he thinks about African Americans calling themselves that.

It has different meanings to different people and applying your American "eyes" to the situation doesn't make your definition of the word the only true one.

I understand this. The majority of my friends are immigrants from Somalia, Ghana, Niger, Nigeria, and Kenya....so I'm very aware of the cultural constructs here. But, the point is this is for applying to medical schools in the United States of America and here...no matter what you want to say African American = Black. Period. End of story. Just because the name has changed from the n-word to negro to colored to black to African-American doesn't mean who it encompasses has changed! If people want to make an issue of it they should really just change it to "Black" instead of "African American"...in fact on a lot of applications (I don't know about the AAMC) they put African-American/Black to show the fact that they are equivalent in nature.

 

[htownpremie]

To me, the term African implies a cultural construct in addition to a "racial" one. Ask my native African husband what he thinks about African Americans calling themselves that.

It has different meanings to different people and applying your American "eyes" to the situation doesn't make your definition of the word the only true one.

an unfair statement to make, but points in my book for baylor just because jolie goes there.

 

[ChemEngMD]

I wouldn't walk up to a group of white people and say I was white either. Like I said, the problem is with the application, and it should be for the schools to decide.

But unfortunately...it's not. So why would you knowingly put yourself down as African-American knowing that it will automatically make you a URM when it doesn't even truly apply to you? Ethically speaking, how could you do this?

 

[Raryn]

I wouldn't walk up to a group of white people and say I was white either. Like I said, the problem is with the application, and it should be for the schools to decide.

You wouldn't be considered white, but you would be considered Caucasian.

African American is just a bad term in general. Its usually used to denote just those who are descended from American slaves, who have no idea what country their ancestors came from. Hence the arguments about how Obama might be Kenyan American but not a proper "African American."

 

[AspiringOne]

To play devil's advocate, what is a white South African supposed to be called? They have generations of ancestors that lived in Africa. They grew up in Africa. They are far removed from Europe and don't identify with it.

Ok, that's a good point. But one must take into account appearance vs reality. You may be completely justified in your explanation of your heritage. But, all that matters is what the adcom thinks, and the color of your skin will either add or detract credibility from your reasoning. This is why I think North Africans (who usually do not have white skin) pass more easily than South Africans (who usually do have white skin).

But, I GUARANTEE you there are white South Africans who have marked African-American and still have gotten accepted. The mere fact that we are discussing this controversial issue demonstrates how complex it is, and many adcoms understand that.

 

[ChemEngMD]

Ok, that's a good point. But one must take into account appearance vs reality. You may be completely justified in your explanation of your heritage. But, all that matters is what the adcom thinks, and the color of your skin will either add or detract credibility from your reasoning. This is why I think North Africans (who usually do not have white skin) pass more easily than South Africans (who usually do have white skin).

But, I GUARANTEE you there are white South Africans who have marked African-American and still have gotten accepted. The mere fact that we are discussing this controversial issue demonstrates how complex it is, and many adcoms understand that.

The point is that schools would be able to accept these Caucasian "African-Americans" and they would be able to put down that they accept all of these "URMs," when in reality they aren't accepting the groups that are considered URM. The point is to help out underprivileged communities here in this country and if Caucasian African-Americans who have never really related to the black community are putting it down, chances of them going back to those communities to work are slim to none. So this would defeat and undermine the entire point of the URM system.

 

[Jolie South]

The point is that schools would be able to accept these Caucasian "African-Americans" and they would be able to put down that they accept all of these "URMs," when in reality they aren't accepting the groups that are considered URM. The point is to help out underprivileged communities here in this country and if Caucasian African-Americans who have never really related to the black community are putting it down, chances of them going back to those communities to work are slim to none. So this would defeat and undermine the entire point of the URM system.

But it would be ok if a black South African put "African American", even though they are removed from the American history that coined the term?

 

[ChemEngMD]

But it would be ok if a black South African put "African American", even though they are far removed from the American history that coined the term?

African immigrants do not tend to immigrate to white areas of the US, and in many cases they come in large groups to areas that are underprivileged (speaking from personal experience with African vs. European/Arabic immigrants). So they too would probably have some actual incentive to go back to those areas and help out. And I'm sure a Black South African would be much more aware of race relations due to the history of apartheid in that country..

 

[AspiringOne]

But unfortunately...it's not. So why would you knowingly put yourself down as African-American knowing that it will automatically make you a URM when it doesn't even truly apply to you? Ethically speaking, how could you do this?

Ethically? Maybe because it's the closest I felt I could get to portaying myself?

I didn't check any box that said "I consider myself an URM." The application just asks for the applicant to report his/her race. Look in the manual. It says nothing along the lines of "ONLY check THIS box if you ARE SURE you are an URM." Do you understand the ludicracy of your statement? Should the application include a link to Google so each multi-racial applicant can research his/her respective representation in medicine to find whether they are considered URM?

Furthermore, "white" doesn't truly apply to me. So, using your words, how could I ethically put that down? For God's sake, the application doesn't even say "Caucasian"!

 

[Jolie South]

African immigrants do not tend to immigrate to white areas of the US, and in many cases they come in large groups to areas that are underprivileged (speaking from personal experience with African vs. European/Arabic immigrants). So they too would probably have some actual incentive to go back to those areas and help out. And I'm sure a Black South African would be much more aware of race relations due to the history of apartheid in that country..

The experience I've had with African immigrants is that they are well to do, as they have to have the means to get here legally, as is the case with European and Arabic immigrants. Also, airfare from Africa can cost $1500 one way. That's not insignificant.

This says nothing of those seeking asylum or refugees.

 

[ChemEngMD]

Ethically? Maybe because it's the closest I felt I could get to portaying myself?

I didn't check any box that said "I consider myself an URM." The application just asks for the applicant to report his/her race. Look in the manual. It says nothing along the lines of "ONLY check THIS box if you ARE SURE you are an URM." Do you understand the ludicracy of your statement? Should the application include a link to Google so each multi-racial applicant can research his/her respective representation in medicine to find whether they are considered URM?

Furthermore, "white" doesn't truly apply to me. So, using your words, how could I ethically put that down? For God's sake, the application doesn't even say "Caucasian"!

Whether the application showed it or not...you frequent these forums so you had to have known about URM. You can't claim ignorance on this one. The US defines Arabic people as Caucasian. Sorry, it's how it is. When the US finally decides to give you guys your own category it'll be a good day for you, but it took "Hispanics" many years in this country and large numbers of us coming before we were given the term "Hispanic" in the 1970s. It's just the fact that you as a well informed pre-med know that putting AA will make you a URM.

 

[ChemEngMD]

The experience I've had with African immigrants is that they are well to do, as they have to have the means to get here legally, as is the case with European and Arabic immigrants. Also, airfare from Africa can cost $1500 one way. That's not insignificant.

This says nothing of those seeking asylum or refugees.

I too have had run-ins with a few Africans that were well-to-do (maybe 3). The majority (probably about 500 or so) that I know though are refugees and people that had to flee their homelands due to war, famine, or political persecution.

 

[Jolie South]

I too have had run-ins with a few Africans that were well-to-do (maybe 3). The majority (probably about 500 or so) that I know though are refugees and people that had to flee their homelands due to war, famine, or political persecution.

Well, then you are speaking of asylees and refugees, not immigrants, technically. I do know a good deal of immigrants. Most are professionals from a upper class background.

I'm not trying to argue BTW. I just don't think that these issues are cut and dried, and I think the terminology used here is incredibly outdated and imprecise.

 

[htownpremie]

African immigrants do not tend to immigrate to white areas of the US, and in many cases they come in large groups to areas that are underprivileged (speaking from personal experience with African vs. European/Arabic immigrants). So they too would probably have some actual incentive to go back to those areas and help out. And I'm sure a Black South African would be much more aware of race relations due to the history of apartheid in that country..

chemengmd, to be honest, i understand what you're getting at, but i really think you're taking it one step too far. i don't think you can make these generalizations based on your personal experience. i have met a number of african immigrants, particularly recent ones, and they are hardly underprivileged in terms of education and socioeconomic class, and i as a so called ORM am more likely to work with underprivileged communities than they are--since so many of them have gone into i-banking...

that being said, i don't think you can really fault different interpretations of the meaning of "african-american." and i don't think you can say that people are unethical for answering the question in a way that is honest for themselves. the true problem, which we've all agreed on, is the limiting nature of being forced to "check a box" for our race or ethnicity, because it robs us of our individuality and presupposes that to look one way or another is to have an identical experience or as you've been referring to a greater tendency for working with one population over another.

edit: i'll add that i don't think this specific case is so widespread that schools are inflating their URM numbers and calling it a day. at the end of the day the folks, regardless of what box they are checking and how they look, are admitted because they are qualified to be there and will add to the student body.

 

[ChemEngMD]

Well, then you are speaking of asylees and refugees, not immigrants, technically. I do know a good deal of immigrants. Most are professionals from a upper class background.

I'm not trying to argue BTW. I just don't think that these issues are cut and dried, and I think the terminology used here is incredibly outdated and imprecise.

Well, URM is irrelevant to your economic background. It is there so that those of us who actually relate to being of that ethnic group and would like to help out "our people" who tend to live in a underprivileged community.

But maybe you know more well-to-do Africans because you met them at Uni? Or through a friend who was also well-to-do? While I know them from my neighborhood and other places around where I've lived and been.

 

[ProLogic]

We're all Americans aren't we? Let's drop the hyphen and call ourselves Americans. I'll start, I'm an American of Mexican descent.

 

[AspiringOne]

Whether the application showed it or not...you frequent these forums so you had to have known about URM. You can't claim ignorance on this one. The US defines Arabic people as Caucasian. Sorry, it's how it is. When the US finally decides to give you guys your own category it'll be a good day for you, but it took "Hispanics" many years in this country and large numbers of us coming before we were given the term "Hispanic" in the 1970s. It's just the fact that you as a well informed pre-med know that putting AA will make you a URM.

Actually, I'm being honest. In fact, for one of my secondaries, the application asked if I consider myself an URM. I said no.

Furthermore, I have clearly mentioned my Egyptian ancestry in many of my secondaries, and have received interviews from those schools. So I wasn't trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes.

Edit: In regards to me "frequenting these forums," I actually never researched URM. I don't care if you believe me or not, but I think the fact that you have more posts than me and joined only 2 months ago is a testament to how often I "frequent" these forums...

 

[ChemEngMD]

Actually, I'm being honest. In fact, for one of my secondaries, the application asked if I consider myself an URM. I said no.

Furthermore, I have clearly mentioned my Egyptian ancestry in many of my secondaries, and have received interviews from those schools. So I wasn't trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes.

Edit: In regards to me "frequenting these forums," I actually never researched URM. I don't care if you believe me or not, but I think the fact that you have more posts than me and joined only 2 months ago is a testament to how often I "frequent" these forums...

Lol, okay I understand where you're coming from. It's not even an individual's attempt that really bothers me (not that you made an attempt to be URM), but it's more of the fact that Universities would be able to put down that they accept more URMs than they really do, you feel me? On the other hand, you don't have to post to come to this forum. People creep on here for years before they join lol.

 

[ChemEngMD]

chemengmd, to be honest, i understand what you're getting at, but i really think you're taking it one step too far. i don't think you can make these generalizations based on your personal experience. i have met a number of african immigrants, particularly recent ones, and they are hardly underprivileged in terms of education and socioeconomic class, and i as a so called ORM am more likely to work with underprivileged communities than they are--since so many of them have gone into i-banking...

that being said, i don't think you can really fault different interpretations of the meaning of "african-american." and i don't think you can say that people are unethical for answering the question in a way that is honest for themselves. the true problem, which we've all agreed on, is the limiting nature of being forced to "check a box" for our race or ethnicity, because it robs us of our individuality and presupposes that to look one way or another is to have an identical experience or as you've been referring to a greater tendency for working with one population over another.

edit: i'll add that i don't think this specific case is so widespread that schools are inflating their URM numbers and calling it a day. at the end of the day the folks, regardless of what box they are checking and how they look, are admitted because they are qualified to be there and will add to the student body.

I think you are underestimating the lengths to which a school may be willing to go to appear more "diverse". Some schools really pride themselves on this and those numbers.

 

[Raryn]

I too have had run-ins with a few Africans that were well-to-do (maybe 3). The majority (probably about 500 or so) that I know though are refugees and people that had to flee their homelands due to war, famine, or political persecution.

I know plenty of African immigrants, all of which are well-to-do hardworking professionals.

Most of which would be upset to be associated with African American "ghetto" culture.

 

[scarletgirl777]

Exactly...if you want to do it, just understand what you're doing and don't pretend to play some ignorant card as if you didn't know what the term "African-American" means in the context of this country.

And YES it automatically makes you URM if you put down Puerto Rican, Mexican, African-American, or Native-American...it doesn't take into account whether you are playing games with the system. I'm just saying if you put down African-American when you are of Arabic North African ancestry or White South African ancestry...you might have some questions to answer when you get to your interview. Especially if they put you with the other URMs interviewing for a special session, with the Dean of Minority Affairs, other current URM Med Students, or African American professors at the school. Just know what you're getting yourself in to.

I am just imagining that scene and laughing my head off. This would definitely NOT score you any points. Way to piss off admissions officers/student interviewers/future classmates right off the bat!

 

[AspiringOne]

Lol, okay I understand where you're coming from. It's not even an individual's attempt that really bothers me (not that you made an attempt to be URM), but it's more of the fact that Universities would be able to put down that they accept more URMs than they really do, you feel me? On the other hand, you don't have to post to come to this forum. People creep on here for years before they join lol.

I understand your concern. And that's why I'm not attacking you, I'm attacking the system. The AMCAS is incredibly lacking in this department.

I wish they just had an "Other" box where I could write-in my race. But I realize with that option would come responses such as "1/8 Native American 1/16 African American 2/5 Hispanic......etc".

 

[236116]

I know plenty of African immigrants, all of which are well-to-do hardworking professionals.

Most of which would be upset to be associated with African American "ghetto" culture.

2nded, even if all of them aren't necessarily well-to-do.