What exactly makes your salary rise as a physician?

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Law2Doc said:
Dude, he's being sarcastic. Panda has been fighting a good fight against the kneejerk responses of pre-allos who say doctors are overpaid and that they would go into it even if the salaries were only $60k. (Sadly, there are quite a few such posters among us).
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They're called Liberals or Democrats....or both!
 
Law2Doc said:
Dude, he's being sarcastic. Panda has been fighting a good fight against the kneejerk responses of pre-allos who say doctors are overpaid and that they would go into it even if the salaries were only $60k. (Sadly, there are quite a few such posters among us).
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:smack::idea:

Now that I've made a fool of myself and I've found my sarcasm detector broken, I will quietly bow out... Sorry for making a scene, and I stand fully corrected/informed.

Thanks for the clarification/information rather than ripping me to shreds, haha. I'm RELATIVELY new on the boards and didn't realize the circumstances of Panda and "the good fight."

EDIT: There are really that many pre-meds that say they would go into the profession with that little compensation, or that believe doctors are overpaid? They're nutty...
 
Law2Doc said:
He's not making it as an OBGYN, he's making it as an elective cosmetic surgeon. And he's only able to make this kind of bling because he has a cash only business (possible in cosmetic surgery) and he has been featured on national TV. Even so, I think this is probably his net revenues (before expenses, medmal exposure etc) and not his salary. But regardless, this isn't gonna be you.
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Yeah anyone with common sense could deduce that he wasn't making that salary providing care to pregnant ladies. I don't think I stated anything close to the idea that I want to make 12mil/year.

And how dare you say that I couldn't make that much. "If you can believe it, you can achieve it."

Simmons-R.jpg
 
Panda Bear said:
It doesn't matter because as long as I can make $60,000 a year as a physician I will be happy. Most people live pretty well on less than that and I can't imagine needing any more to be happy. In fact, just asking about salary shows that you are going into medicine for the wrong reasons and you may need to reconsider your career goals. As long as the underserved have no access to medical care, I would be embarrassed to ask them to spend their cigarette money on medicine while I wallow in the luxury that $60,000 per year will buy.
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Thank you, PB. I needed that.
 
Raryn said:
What can I say... *I* loved your response 😉
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Well thank you... Hahaha...

When you make yourself look like such a fool (like I did), it's bound to get a few laughs for one reason or another... 👍
 
ejay286 said:
Yeah anyone with common sense could deduce that he wasn't making that salary providing care to pregnant ladies. I don't think I stated anything close to the idea that I want to make 12mil/year.

And how dare you say that I couldn't make that much. "If you can believe it, you can achieve it."

Simmons-R.jpg
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Ok, I want to play for an NFL team. I need to get working out and try and make an NFL team next season with my 5'6 155 pound body frame. Wish me luck.
 
footballrules said:
Ok, I want to play for an NFL team. I need to get working out and try and make an NFL team next season with my 5'6 155 pound body frame. Wish me luck.
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I'm sorry, I meant to say "If ejay286 can believe it, he can achieve it." So no NFL for you.

And just to clarify there was a substantial amount of jest in my original post.
 
ejay286 said:
I'm sorry, I meant to say "If ejay286 can believe it, he can achieve it." So no NFL for you.

And just to clarify there was a substantial amount of jest in my original post.
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Not everyone can achieve want they want to achieve. I wanted to play in the NFL when I played high school football. That didn't work out because I didn't have what it took to make it to that level.

If a person wants to make 12 million dollars as a doctor, you better be one of the hottest doctors around, a very people person, everything comes easy (medical knowledge, technique and the like), popular, desired by the rich people, and produce a good product. Cosmetics is about the only way to do this beyond runing a big business.
 
Dude I'm just joking. I'll be happy/lucky if I can just get in and have the opportunity to practice medicine. Making millions isn't a concern for me.
 
Law2Doc said:
It's called a crime in the US and can land you in federal prison. Good luck with that.
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Although it doesn't stop some people from doing similar things like buying diagnostic equipment and using it more extensively than necessary so they can bill it out.
 
Virgil said:
Haha. But seriously, in this day and age is $60,000 sufficient to raise 2.5 kids, a dog, a house/mortgage and still have enough to enjoy yourself every now and then? I'm serious people: I still live with the parental unit and don't know the value of money.
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Hell no. That much money is enough to keep the wife and I in an apartment with two used cars that are paid off, without being able to put much aside. Children would destroy the budget.
 
TheProwler said:
Hell no. That much money is enough to keep the wife and I in an apartment with two used cars that are paid off, without being able to put much aside. Children would destroy the budget.
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Word.
 
betheltim said:
Well thank you... Hahaha...

When you make yourself look like such a fool (like I did), it's bound to get a few laughs for one reason or another... 👍
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What an excellent thread, and you're being a good sport about it 👍.
 
Panda Bear said:
It doesn't matter because as long as I can make $60,000 a year as a physician I will be happy. Most people live pretty well on less than that and I can't imagine needing any more to be happy. In fact, just asking about salary shows that you are going into medicine for the wrong reasons and you may need to reconsider your career goals. As long as the underserved have no access to medical care, I would be embarrassed to ask them to spend their cigarette money on medicine while I wallow in the luxury that $60,000 per year will buy.
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HSICTIOMGDROFLMAO
(Holy **** I Can't Take It Oh My God Dying Rolling On Floor Laughing My Ass Off)

Amazing Panda Bear **Standing Ovation**

^^Yep, I just popularized that^^
 
joponoda said:
Medicare pays by the procedure. So if a physician has a Medicare patient and wishes to earn more money all they have to do is tell the patient that a CT scan, MIR, .... will be necessary to confirm a diagnosis. The nice part of this is the MIR or CT machines are a fixed cost so once it is paid for the doctor can make bank by recommending all his Medicare patients to use it. Where as other people on private insurance plan my not have some procedures covered or do not wish to pay their portion of an expensive test, so they opt out.

Does anyone know anything more about this? I really don't know too much about Medicare, but this is what I have heard.
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First off, it's an "MRI," as in Magnetic Resonance Imaging.

Second, Medicare has elaborate rules in place to prevent self referral and self enrichment (conflict of interest) by simply ordering more tests. There are exceptions and loopholes, of course, but in your scenario the internist who orders the CT and/or MRI wouldn't see a dime; the radiologist would. Of course, the internist and radiologist may be in cahoots to cheat the system, but that's not the norm.
 
Panda Bear said:
It doesn't matter because as long as I can make $60,000 a year as a physician I will be happy. Most people live pretty well on less than that and I can't imagine needing any more to be happy. In fact, just asking about salary shows that you are going into medicine for the wrong reasons and you may need to reconsider your career goals. As long as the underserved have no access to medical care, I would be embarrassed to ask them to spend their cigarette money on medicine while I wallow in the luxury that $60,000 per year will buy.
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Just because someone asked the question about salary increase doesn’t mean they are going into medicine for the wrong reason -- it means they are curious about how the profession works.
 
mmagnett said:
Just because someone asked the question about salary increase doesn’t mean they are going into medicine for the wrong reason -- it means they are curious about how the profession works.
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I think its been pretty much established that Panda's reply was not a serious one.
 
ejay286 said:
I think its been pretty much established that Panda's reply was not a serious one.
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And at my expense! I'm incredibly offended that mmagnett would casually pass over my humiliatingly useful contribution!

...Just kidding. Naturally. 😎
 
suwaifo said:
What an excellent thread, and you're being a good sport about it 👍.
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I hate being wrong, but sometimes you just have to admit defeat or incompetence, haha.
 
ejay286 said:
I think its been pretty much established that Panda's reply was not a serious one.
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ya i just read it then posted without reading the rest of this thread. my bad. i like the sarcasm in pandas orig. post.
 
Law2Doc said:
It's the same with any profession -- it's called leverage. You make more money if you have people working under you. So you join a partnership as an employee, and at some day down the road you get invited to buy into the partnership and then you and the partners split the pot (based on partnership interests). Then when you have enough business to hire some new employees, you hire them at a lower starting salary with the promise that someday they too will be allowed to buy in as partners. But until that day, they are generating more money then their salary, and this difference is split by the partners. And so on. By a decade from now, the partnership has multiple employees, all generating more money than they earn, that the higher ups split. So yeah, the longer you are in private practice the more money you will make, because you are getting money out of those lower down the pyramid.

As for solo practitioners, the only way you can make more money is to see more patients, and do more procedures.
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I need to think about this one when I am sober. I have heard a doctor say he makes a few million a year between his two practices, is this possible.
 
BORNagainSTDENT said:
I need to think about this one when I am sober. I have heard a doctor say he makes a few million a year between his two practices, is this possible.
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It's not really likely for someone starting out to be making a few million in medicine these days, sorry. The barriers to entry for starting a business and practice overhead expenses are higher these days, student loans impinge one's ability to obtain working capital, insurance companies severely hamper what most patients can be charged, and just try to get a small business loan in today's financial turmoil. So no, I can say with 99% certainty that nobody on this thread is going to earn anything like a million (let alone a few million) from their physician salary or partnership share. Folks who got into the business when the time was right might, but our generation will not do as well.

But in terms of your question, if you have multiple practices, that implies you have multiple people working under you -- if each generates more income than their salary plus expenses, the boss makes the surplus. That's what I described as leverage above -- you make money off the folks working under you. The concept is good, but in today's medical landscape, it's going to be unlikely to set up.
 
Panda Bear said:
It doesn't matter because as long as I can make $60,000 a year as a physician I will be happy. Most people live pretty well on less than that and I can't imagine needing any more to be happy. In fact, just asking about salary shows that you are going into medicine for the wrong reasons and you may need to reconsider your career goals. As long as the underserved have no access to medical care, I would be embarrassed to ask them to spend their cigarette money on medicine while I wallow in the luxury that $60,000 per year will buy.
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panda, you rule!

:laugh:
 
Law2Doc said:
It's not really likely for someone starting out to be making a few million in medicine these days, sorry. The barriers to entry for starting a business and practice overhead expenses are higher these days, student loans impinge one's ability to obtain working capital, insurance companies severely hamper what most patients can be charged, and just try to get a small business loan in today's financial turmoil. So no, I can say with 99% certainty that nobody on this thread is going to earn anything like a million (let alone a few million) from their physician salary or partnership share. Folks who got into the business when the time was right might, but our generation will not do as well.

But in terms of your question, if you have multiple practices, that implies you have multiple people working under you -- if each generates more income than their salary plus expenses, the boss makes the surplus. That's what I described as leverage above -- you make money off the folks working under you. The concept is good, but in today's medical landscape, it's going to be unlikely to set up.
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But hypothetically If one had the credit or the capital would the business oppurtunity exist.

When you says "folks who got in at the right time", do you mean when the medical field was different? It seems to me you mean more so the lending market.

But you also say "todays medical landscape" so Im just curious. Thanks.
 
Law2Doc said:
It's not really likely for someone starting out to be making a few million in medicine these days, sorry. The barriers to entry for starting a business and practice overhead expenses are higher these days, student loans impinge one's ability to obtain working capital, insurance companies severely hamper what most patients can be charged, and just try to get a small business loan in today's financial turmoil. So no, I can say with 99% certainty that nobody on this thread is going to earn anything like a million (let alone a few million) from their physician salary or partnership share. Folks who got into the business when the time was right might, but our generation will not do as well.

But in terms of your question, if you have multiple practices, that implies you have multiple people working under you -- if each generates more income than their salary plus expenses, the boss makes the surplus. That's what I described as leverage above -- you make money off the folks working under you. The concept is good, but in today's medical landscape, it's going to be unlikely to set up.
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Ah, good ol' Law2Doc still laying out the reality to premeds. 👍

I don't have the patience to do it.
 
TheProwler said:
Although it doesn't stop some people from doing similar things like buying diagnostic equipment and using it more extensively than necessary so they can bill it out.
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Don't hate the player, hate the game. It's just set up that way.
 
badasshairday said:
There you go. Now your thinking player. 🙂
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My intentions and motivations are still very much altruistic, but you have to be smart. There is no reason to let your patients, attendings, or administrators de-backbone you. This is about you. Medicine is a job. There's good, there's bad, and there's "what the bleep." However, at the end of the day, its about you being able to survive. And, to survive you need to bill, bill, bill. If you feel bad about billing people, don't accept un/underinsured populations.
 
bornagainstudent,
I think it would be very unlikely for a physician starting out in this day and age to be able to make millions at any point in his/her career, or even 1 million/year. 300-400k is doable within a few years if you do orthopedic surgery, radiology, LASIK surgery, perhaps a few other specialties AND are in private practice and work hard and you are in a good market. Pediatricians probably make 80k-150k, with internists and family practice making 110-160k or so. You could make a little more, as Lawdoc says, if you employ other physicians and/or NP's, etc. and you are a good businessperson.

Lawdoc was talking about today's business climate being different, in terms of insurance companies and the government ratcheting (SP?) down reimbursements. Also, he was probably talking about the fact that in the 1970s and 1980s the average residency graduate starting out didn't have these huge student loan debts that most of us have now. Also, there is so much overhead involved in starting up a practice now, and patients don't have loyalty to a particular doctor as much (in my opinion) like they did in 1960 or 1970...so the value of owning your own practice isn't necessarily there, moneywise. Now, for folks who just value their own independence a lot, being in a solo or small group practice might provide some of that...if you can survive financially.

How much a physician makes also varies according to what state and town/city you live in. Some docs in medium sized or smaller towns in the South and Midwest do quite well relative to the average person there. The average doc in NYC or Boston is likely not as well off relative to "average" due to the high cost of living there and a relative oversaturation of doctors.
 
Making 60k + your significant other's income can provide for a family. My mother raised me on 1/2 that, no other financial help, and a little brother. Do I want to be making this much after med school + residency? God no
 
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