what field to go into??

[NewPup22]

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I need some advice here. I'm a MSIII who "has to decide" what field to do my residency in in the next couple of months. I'm interested in pediatrics, but have been feeling really annoyed that I keep seeing salaries in $100-120k, when I could choose another 3/4-year residency and make twice as much easily.

Now I know this is medicine and there is a large humanitarian aspect to it, and especially so when it deals with kids, but I feel like I can reach and help people in any field. It just seems unfair that you put in thousands more in $$loans, time, and take on responsibility for children's lives and for the work of your team, just to make as much as a CRNA, PA, etc. I even know people without college degrees (albeit not common) that make this much.

It is also concerning because my husband and I are both MSIIIs with loans that we'll have to eventually pay off. But what do we do when it comes time to pay for kids and their daycares etc, buy a new car, a house, move, and pay our double loans?

Also, I'm not afraid to look at other fields, again since I will always work my hardest to make a difference in my patients' lives, but I am limited by a step 1 score of 217 and a 3.0 gpa (mostly because of first year courses). I'm well liked and don't think I'll have a problem getting good LORs and doing well on interviews. My husband has a competitive application, and I don't want to risk applying to something that will hold us back in a couple's match, etc. My husband will likely go into a field that makes average $220-250k, if that makes a difference.

Any advice would be much appreciated. Is this much worrying unwarranted? Thanks!

PS (as if this wasn't long enough already), I have contributed to SDN forums in the past, I just created a new name to avoid identifying myself. I know people don't like when noncontributors ask for advice here.

 

[FiveRivers]

I would say that if you are interested in peds, go for it! Perhaps look into a pediatric fellowship to increase your earning potential.

A quick google search led me to this: http://www.profilesdatabase.com/resources/2011-2012-physician-salary-survey

Scroll down to the pediatric subspecialties, and you will see that there is a much higher income potential.

 

[rokshana]

It is also concerning because my husband and I are both MSIIIs with loans that we'll have to eventually pay off. But what do we do when it comes time to pay for kids and their daycares etc, buy a new car, a house, move, and pay our double loans?
My husband will likely go into a field that makes average $220-250k, if that makes a difference.

so…you're concerned that you will not be able to do all of this with a household income of 350-450K/year?

if money is the point for you (it is for some people who get into medicine) then look to do something that give you the biggest bang for your buck…say IM for hospitalist job. Or you can do peds and then do a fellowship in Peds EM or NICU.

otherwise do what you enjoy regardless of the "average" compensation…

IMHO, you should do what you like…having to trudge through something you abhor just because it has a good income will just make your life miserable…and you will find that its not really worth the money.

 

[Top Gun]

Would you rather be doing something you enjoy but making less money, or would you rather be doing something that makes you miserable but making more money? Only you can decide that. If pedes is what you like, then do pedes. Sure, you'll probably be on the lower end of the spectrum in terms of physician salaries, but you won't exactly be living in poverty. You'll still be making enough to be comfortable, and you'll still be making more than most people on average.

 

[Smurfette]

Moving to allo where this thread is more appropriate.

 

[witzelsucht]

1) Things change. you won't even be practicing as an attending for 5 years, and with the ACA who knows how that will be affected

2) better to do something you like

3) try to look at lifetime income. if you can work until you are 70, maybe in some part time capactity at parts of your life, and you really like it, then you may make more money than if you become an IM hospitalist and just hate in and retire to raise babies in 10 years.

4) anecdoatal but i know a young peds attending who does 24 hour hospitalist shifts that allow great lifestyle. not sure of exact money but he lives in a nice area

 

[chondroblast]

Now first off, do what your passion is. If you want to do pediatrics, go for it. The physicians at the hospital where I went to as a kid had their salaries posted for public viewership. My former pediatrician makes $280,000. Just do a pediatric fellowship, you'll make more money that way. Also become a good job-hunter. The key is to be good at finding the right place.

I once saw a recruiter with a job for a salaried position as a pediatric endocrinologist (fellow) with base pay of $400 K. And call was only 1 to 8.

 

[GangaMaster]

Peds don't make 100-120k do they?

 

[username456789]

Now first off, do what your passion is. If you want to do pediatrics, go for it. The physicians at the hospital where I went to as a kid had their salaries posted for public viewership. My former pediatrician makes $280,000. Just do a pediatric fellowship, you'll make more money that way. Also become a good job-hunter. The key is to be good at finding the right place.

I once saw a recruiter with a job for a salaried position as a pediatric endocrinologist (fellow) with base pay of $400 K. And call was only 1 to 8.

A peds endo fellow is not making anything close to that. It was almost certainly a job posting for an attending.

 

[Arkangeloid]

100-120? Are you sure you weren't looking at salaries for academic pediatricians in asst. prof. positions or something? That seems suspiciously low.

 

[TLAD123]

Which field? The one with flowers and tall grass...

Anyway, Do what you love, not what makes you the most. Though, if you have any interest in surg, you could do peds surg. Don't know if they make more but I would think they do.

 

[WaylonS]

Which field? The one with flowers and tall grass...

Anyway, Do what you love, not what makes you the most. Though, if you have any interest in surg, you could do peds surg. Don't know if they make more but I would think they do.

General peds: 3 years

Peds surg: 5 years then research/schmooze for 1 or more years then do a 2 year fellowship. Basically you're looking at a minimum of 8 years and possibly more. Due to the finite number of spots, it seems like it's almost impossible to get a fellowship right out of residency, thus the need to do research/junior faculty years before actually getting a fellowship spot

 

[chondroblast]

A peds endo fellow is not making anything close to that. It was almost certainly a job posting for an attending.

Yes that's what I meant. Sorry.
The fellow part was supposed to specify that you needed to complete a fellowship in order to get the position. It was a position for an attending.


Oh and OP, I forgot to mention this:
$100k - $120k is way low even for a pediatrician. Many pediatricians these days are making more like $200k - $220k, and that's without a fellowship.

 

[Arkangeloid]

General peds: 3 years

Peds surg: 5 years then research/schmooze for 1 or more years then do a 2 year fellowship. Basically you're looking at a minimum of 8 years and possibly more. Due to the finite number of spots, it seems like it's almost impossible to get a fellowship right out of residency, thus the need to do research/junior faculty years before actually getting a fellowship spot

Ain't nobody got time for that

 

[235009]

As others have said: do what you love. You are in a bit of an enviable position where you actually DON'T have to worry about your income since you'll have a significant other making $200k+. Rather than worrying about paying for day care for your children you should look to maximize lifestyle so you can actually be there for your kids and peds is very lifestyle friendly. With a combined income of $300k+ you'll easily be able to afford everything you mentioned with lots of money to spare.

 

[Venko]

I need some advice here. I'm a MSIII who "has to decide" what field to do my residency in in the next couple of months. I'm interested in pediatrics, but have been feeling really annoyed that I keep seeing salaries in $100-120k, when I could choose another 3/4-year residency and make twice as much easily.

Now I know this is medicine and there is a large humanitarian aspect to it, and especially so when it deals with kids, but I feel like I can reach and help people in any field. It just seems unfair that you put in thousands more in $$loans, time, and take on responsibility for children's lives and for the work of your team, just to make as much as a CRNA, PA, etc. I even know people without college degrees (albeit not common) that make this much.

It is also concerning because my husband and I are both MSIIIs with loans that we'll have to eventually pay off. But what do we do when it comes time to pay for kids and their daycares etc, buy a new car, a house, move, and pay our double loans?

Also, I'm not afraid to look at other fields, again since I will always work my hardest to make a difference in my patients' lives, but I am limited by a step 1 score of 217 and a 3.0 gpa (mostly because of first year courses). I'm well liked and don't think I'll have a problem getting good LORs and doing well on interviews. My husband has a competitive application, and I don't want to risk applying to something that will hold us back in a couple's match, etc. My husband will likely go into a field that makes average $220-250k, if that makes a difference.

Any advice would be much appreciated. Is this much worrying unwarranted? Thanks!

PS (as if this wasn't long enough already), I have contributed to SDN forums in the past, I just created a new name to avoid identifying myself. I know people don't like when noncontributors ask for advice here.

Its fair to think about finances as long as it doesn't cloud your altruism which it doesn't seem to be. Have you considered pediatric emergency medicine? You'll get to see kids, have a generally more comfortable salary for fewer work hours (the hours are often more intense however). Pediatric emergency physicians are highly coveted and you'll have an easy time finding a job. If you do consider it, I would recommend the general EM route followed by a pediatric fellowship because it involves more care of sick folks and is shorter in duration, but the peds then fellowship route is okay too.

 

[deleted500612]

As others have pointed out, 100-120k would probably be 10th percentile of earners with full time hours... Making at least 150k-200k in peds is pretty standard, with plenty who have completed a fellowship making more than this.

I also kind of laugh at the skewed sense of perspective a lot of doctors seem to have about "making a good living". Here you are worried about being able to afford a car and a house with student loans on a household income of 400k per year... The average American household manages to pay all those things on less than half that much household income, I don't think worrying about having enough money to live comfortably will be a concern no matter which specialty you or your husband pick.

Sure it is always nice to have more money, but lets call a spade a spade here. You can still live VERY comfortably on a $150k salary, especially when your spouse is also making the same or more... Although I come from a lower-middle class family, so I probably have a different perspective than a lot of people on here who's parents are both physicians and having a couple $100,000 cars and a million dollar mansion is considered "barely getting by".

 

[235009]

Here you are worried about being able to afford a car and a house with student loans on a household income of 400k per year... The average American household manages to pay all those things on less than half that much household income, I don't think worrying about having enough money to live comfortably will be a concern no matter which specialty you or your husband pick.

Half? try closer to 15%! Median household income last year was $52k

 

[atomi]

I'm interested in pediatrics, but have been feeling really annoyed that I keep seeing salaries in $100-120k, when I could choose another 3/4-year residency and make twice as much easily.

OP, if you like peds, then do peds. I am "annoyed" that trial lawyers and patent trolls earn millions a year with b.s. lawsuits. That doesn't mean I am insecure about what I want to do and certainly doesn't mean that I want to be one of them. Lots of doctors are "annoyed" and insanely jealous of the medium-sized business owners in their towns. They go to the same country clubs, but these guys make 10+ mil/year. Why do peds when you can spend another few years and go to harvard MBA school and hire on somewhere and be making 7 figures after a few years then bail and be one of these business owners? When I was an engineer many years ago, I was "annoyed" that our salaries were only $80k/year when doctors made so much more. So I became one of them. I'll never make that mistake again. Do what you want to do. If you're good at something, you'll do well no matter what it is. Unfortunately in medicine, you can do well by being mediocre at something. And this is what attracts a lot of people to the field. Guaranteed income.

 

[Psai]

As others have pointed out, 100-120k would probably be 10th percentile of earners with full time hours... Making at least 150k-200k in peds is pretty standard, with plenty who have completed a fellowship making more than this.

I also kind of laugh at the skewed sense of perspective a lot of doctors seem to have about "making a good living". Here you are worried about being able to afford a car and a house with student loans on a household income of 400k per year... The average American household manages to pay all those things on less than half that much household income, I don't think worrying about having enough money to live comfortably will be a concern no matter which specialty you or your husband pick.

Sure it is always nice to have more money, but lets call a spade a spade here. You can still live VERY comfortably on a $150k salary, especially when your spouse is also making the same or more... Although I come from a lower-middle class family, so I probably have a different perspective than a lot of people on here who's parents are both physicians and having a couple $100,000 cars and a million dollar mansion is considered "barely getting by".

When the average American household has my education, my work ethic and my hours, let me know. By the way, the average American household is in debt and is pretty miserable right now. I don't believe that being average is something I aspire to as a physician. Nice insinuation with the rich physician, rich medical student nonsense though.

By the way, decreasing physician salaries won't make patient care any better or cheaper. All it will do is burden medical students with inescapable debt while lining the pockets of insurance companies, medical device companies and hospital administrators. Just look at GI. Guess who benefits when the GI doc hires a nurse to do the anesthesia? (There's nothing going for the patient when the GI doc siphons up the anesthesia fee along with a facility fee). You want a better system? Tort reform, less garbage from hospital administration and politicians along with a system that incentives people to care for their own bodies instead of leaving physicians to deal with the mess.

 

[NewPup22]

Hey everyone, thank you for the responses! I think the thread really helped solidify my decision to go into peds, which has always been my first love. If anything, it's nice to know I can do a fellowship. And Peds-EM sounds like a lot of fun and would provide amazing skills. I obviously knew all this, but it's nice to hear it from other people in medicine.

Y'all gave me good points: A better lifestyle would allow time to spend with my kids, meaning less cost and stress trying to find daycare and nannies and the such. And I'd be able to take care of my kids and know when it's time to bring them to the doctor or not, too! I'm also glad to hear that most of what y'all have heard are salaries of 200k+.

I was more so concerned about starting salaries which happen while "real life" startup costs are at the highest. I looked it up on CiM and it is 130-170k for both clinical practice and academic positions. (Though I have seen as low as 70K on some forums and job offers, but I'm sure those are for far fewer hours.) I realize I sounded as a "poor little rich girl", who can't live off of a $300K combined income. My parents were not educated or rich, so I'm not a stranger to making life work while on a lower income. I more so wanted to maximize their and my investment, so I can have it all: give back to our families, pay off loans (which are accruing at $22/day currently), provide for my kids future, all while also providing the best care for children. I think that's fair for any adult to want, even if I am in medicine. Having money isn't about being vain, but having the resources to help everyone around you, including your patients.

Seriously thanks, y'all really helped!

 

[IamPsychiatrist]

I need some advice here. I'm a MSIII who "has to decide" what field to do my residency in in the next couple of months. I'm interested in pediatrics, but have been feeling really annoyed that I keep seeing salaries in $100-120k, when I could choose another 3/4-year residency and make twice as much easily.

Now I know this is medicine and there is a large humanitarian aspect to it, and especially so when it deals with kids, but I feel like I can reach and help people in any field. It just seems unfair that you put in thousands more in $$loans, time, and take on responsibility for children's lives and for the work of your team, just to make as much as a CRNA, PA, etc. I even know people without college degrees (albeit not common) that make this much.

It is also concerning because my husband and I are both MSIIIs with loans that we'll have to eventually pay off. But what do we do when it comes time to pay for kids and their daycares etc, buy a new car, a house, move, and pay our double loans?

Also, I'm not afraid to look at other fields, again since I will always work my hardest to make a difference in my patients' lives, but I am limited by a step 1 score of 217 and a 3.0 gpa (mostly because of first year courses). I'm well liked and don't think I'll have a problem getting good LORs and doing well on interviews. My husband has a competitive application, and I don't want to risk applying to something that will hold us back in a couple's match, etc. My husband will likely go into a field that makes average $220-250k, if that makes a difference.

Any advice would be much appreciated. Is this much worrying unwarranted? Thanks!

PS (as if this wasn't long enough already), I have contributed to SDN forums in the past, I just created a new name to avoid identifying myself. I know people don't like when noncontributors ask for advice here.

Lol.

Rich people always crack me up.

If you and your husband are physicians you will be in the top 3% of earners in the United States. That means you are better off than 97% of the richest country the world has ever known. (this is even with your measly 120k working 40 hrs a week as a pediatrician).

You also will be in the top 0.1% of income earners in the world. This means you're better off than 99.99% of people on earth. In other words, if you take 10,000 humans on earth, you are the top 1 out of 10,o00 percentile wise.

Even if you owe 200k, you will be able to pay this off with 120k salary. It may take 15 years, but you can do it. Paying 20k a year is very possible, even after taxes - and it would still put you are your husbands income percentile in a very high range.

First world problems!!!

 

[atomi]

I'm also glad to hear that most of what y'all have heard are salaries of 200k+.

I was more so concerned about starting salaries which happen while "real life" startup costs are at the highest. I looked it up on CiM and it is 130-170k for both clinical practice and academic positions. (Though I have seen as low as 70K on some forums and job offers, but I'm sure those are for far fewer hours.) I realize I sounded as a "poor little rich girl", who can't live off of a $300K combined income. My parents were not educated or rich, so I'm not a stranger to making life work while on a lower income. I more so wanted to maximize their and my investment, so I can have it all: give back to our families, pay off loans (which are accruing at $22/day currently), provide for my kids future, all while also providing the best care for children. I think that's fair for any adult to want, even if I am in medicine. Having money isn't about being vain, but having the resources to help everyone around you, including your patients.

Lots of people make $200k+/year at some point in their life. The difference is they don't make it right out as their first job at age 30. Nobody else gets the luxury of pretty much instantly finding a mid 6-figure job as their first. I am not trying to be preachy, but just trying to give a reality check. It is so easy to become out of touch and caught up in the physician lifestyle, which I have noticed is far more apparent in physician-physician couples. We all need to try and hold on to some perspective and realize that the system for whatever reasons chooses to reward us in 7 years (via an artificially fixed labor market) with what would take our peers in college who pursued different careers 30 years. Are our careers that much more important? Maybe sometimes, but certainly not always. Yes, we want to provide for our kids, but you're not a failure if you can't give your kids a private school education while living in midtown manhattan, taking them on vacations to europe every year, buying them designer clothes and catered meals, and driving them around in luxury automobiles. The vast majority of college educated people send their kids to public school and send them to college with $100k/year incomes or less. But then again they don't have the increased financial obligations of living in gated communities, driving new Porsches, or paying that so painful $500/month student loan debt (well some actually do).

Point is, you're not going to get much sympathy commenting about starting salaries only being in the low six figures and because of this you had to sacrifice your true professional interests for a higher paycheck. This is what happens when a musician has a kid and has to give up his music career to take a job at a factory to support his new family. It's not quite the same as someone being a dermatologist instead of a his dream to be a pediatrician solely to provide for his kids.

 

[mvenus929]

Just do a pediatric fellowship, you'll make more money that way.

On average, the three fellowships that increase earning potential compared to general peds (and thus are worth the extra 3 years of fellowship) are cardiology, NICU, and PICU.

 

[Arkangeloid]

As others have pointed out, 100-120k would probably be 10th percentile of earners with full time hours... Making at least 150k-200k in peds is pretty standard, with plenty who have completed a fellowship making more than this.

I also kind of laugh at the skewed sense of perspective a lot of doctors seem to have about "making a good living". Here you are worried about being able to afford a car and a house with student loans on a household income of 400k per year... The average American household manages to pay all those things on less than half that much household income, I don't think worrying about having enough money to live comfortably will be a concern no matter which specialty you or your husband pick.

Sure it is always nice to have more money, but lets call a spade a spade here. You can still live VERY comfortably on a $150k salary, especially when your spouse is also making the same or more... Although I come from a lower-middle class family, so I probably have a different perspective than a lot of people on here who's parents are both physicians and having a couple $100,000 cars and a million dollar mansion is considered "barely getting by".

Let's not forget that you have to make up for paying a large fortune for med school, a lost decade that you could have used to invest in your future, a lost decade of time, and working much harder than regular Americans for the rest of your life. 150K sounds good until you consider all of that, then you realize just how little it is.

Honestly, if I made just 150K after all of that (as a clinician, assuming I don't do anything academic), I would consider my life an utter failure, and so would all my peers.

 

[chondroblast]

On average, the three fellowships that increase earning potential compared to general peds (and thus are worth the extra 3 years of fellowship) are cardiology, NICU, and PICU.

Just because you make more money doesn't mean it's the only reason to do something. Maybe someone is just really interested in pediatric cardiology.

 

[chondroblast]

Let's not forget that you have to make up for paying a large fortune for med school, a lost decade that you could have used to invest in your future, a lost decade of time, and working much harder than regular Americans for the rest of your life.

Honestly, if I made just 150K after all of that (as a clinician, assuming I don't do anything academic), I would consider my life an utter failure, and so would all my peers.

I would never consider getting into and completing medical school an "utter failure", even if I only made $50,000.

 

[IamPsychiatrist]

I would never consider getting into and completing medical school an "utter failure", even if I only made $50,000.

Wait, 50k? Yeah. That would be a failure!🙂

 

[Winged Scapula]

Just because you make more money doesn't mean it's the only reason to do something. Maybe someone is just really interested in pediatric cardiology.

I think the point was that the OP is interested in peds but she's interested in making the most money possible which is why these higher paying fellowships were mentioned.

Not all fellowship training, especially in pediatrics, pays more.

And not all people do a fellowship just because it pays more.

 

[mvenus929]

Just because you make more money doesn't mean it's the only reason to do something. Maybe someone is just really interested in pediatric cardiology.

I never said it was. I was specifically responding to the comment of 'go into fellowship because you'll make more money'. That's a faulty statement, as only three peds fellowships provide more income and thus are financially worth doing the fellowship. If OP does an endocrine fellowship, statistically, she won't make a significantly higher amount to justify losing three years of attending income to do the fellowship in the first place.

Obviously, people do the other fellowships every year, but their reasons aren't financial: they do it because they enjoy the specialized work.

 

[chondroblast]

Wait, 50k? Yeah. That would be a failure!🙂

How so? If I'm doing what I want to be doing and I'm happy, how does that make me a failure?

 

[Psai]

Lots of people make $200k+/year at some point in their life. The difference is they don't make it right out as their first job at age 30. Nobody else gets the luxury of pretty much instantly finding a mid 6-figure job as their first. I am not trying to be preachy, but just trying to give a reality check. It is so easy to become out of touch and caught up in the physician lifestyle, which I have noticed is far more apparent in physician-physician couples. We all need to try and hold on to some perspective and realize that the system for whatever reasons chooses to reward us in 7 years (via an artificially fixed labor market) with what would take our peers in college who pursued different careers 30 years. Are our careers that much more important? Maybe sometimes, but certainly not always. Yes, we want to provide for our kids, but you're not a failure if you can't give your kids a private school education while living in midtown manhattan, taking them on vacations to europe every year, buying them designer clothes and catered meals, and driving them around in luxury automobiles. The vast majority of college educated people send their kids to public school and send them to college with $100k/year incomes or less. But then again they don't have the increased financial obligations of living in gated communities, driving new Porsches, or paying that so painful $500/month student loan debt (well some actually do).

Point is, you're not going to get much sympathy commenting about starting salaries only being in the low six figures and because of this you had to sacrifice your true professional interests for a higher paycheck. This is what happens when a musician has a kid and has to give up his music career to take a job at a factory to support his new family. It's not quite the same as someone being a dermatologist instead of a his dream to be a pediatrician solely to provide for his kids.

No, most people don't make 200k+ ever. Note how our first real job is at age 30. Guess what we're doing until then? We're sitting in the library or running around the hospital all day. And we will be starting out around with -$250,000 in the bank which will increase at around 6%. It's not a luxury when you've earned it through multiple steps of quality control through interview processes, judgment by everyone and their mothers and more thousand dollar multiple choice exams than you can imagine. Then you have all these wannabes that didn't work as hard or know as much saying that they can do the same thing as you. Our jobs are important and valuable. Don't make nonsensical class warfare arguments when that's not the point of the thread.

 

[NewPup22]

Let's not forget that you have to make up for paying a large fortune for med school, a lost decade that you could have used to invest in your future, a lost decade of time, and working much harder than regular Americans for the rest of your life. 150K sounds good until you consider all of that, then you realize just how little it is.

Honestly, if I made just 150K after all of that (as a clinician, assuming I don't do anything academic), I would consider my life an utter failure, and so would all my peers.

Thanks, you understand what I'm saying. literally a decade of time, and a lifetime of working harder than the average American.

And I'd be in the top 10% of earners. over $167k would be 5%. and over $388k would be 1%. I really have no other way to explain to some of y'all that I don't want to or expect for my kids to drive Porsches or go to Europe every year. It's more about making sure the system is not taking "advantage of me", but I suppose it is, until Kim K, Snookie, and all the footballers make 1/100th of what they make now. Now that is actual rich.

No, most people don't make 200k+ ever. Note how our first real job is at age 30. Guess what we're doing until then? We're sitting in the library or running around the hospital all day. And we will be starting out around with -$250,000 in the bank which will increase at around 6%. It's not a luxury when you've earned it through multiple steps of quality control through interview processes, judgment by everyone and their mothers and more thousand dollar multiple choice exams than you can imagine. Then you have all these wannabes that didn't work as hard or know as much saying that they can do the same thing as you. Our jobs are important and valuable. Don't make nonsensical class warfare arguments when that's not the point of the thread.

Thanks you also understand me! I especially like the quality control statement. We have literally been expected to be perfect every step of the way: ACT/SAT, making an A in every undergrad class, MCAT, LORs, awesome work experiences/volunteering, then in med school we need to get a great GPA, have a great class rank, LORs, Step1-3, plus $ thousands more.


Forgive me if I think twice before going into something, where if I were a CRNA TODAY, I could be making as much, investing now, having kids now, etc etc.

 

[ScottD]

I really fear for the future of our profession when so many doctors-in-training have absolutely no desire to claim that they deserve pay and respect. Everyone here falling on the sword for no reason is ridiculous. Money isn't inherently evil. When you earn money in America, you aren't taking money from a farmer in Rwanda. There are broken political infrastructures in place that are causing that damage, not American physicians. And you don't need to spend money on a car; you can just as well spend it to repay your middle-class parents who sacrificed every discretionary dollar they had in their 30s to send you to private school and give you the best shot. You can donate it to your church, your alma mater, etc.

The OP's doubt of if she's getting paid what she's worth isn't so unreasonable:

Not adjusted for: loans. Who was in the library throughout their 20's and who wasn't. The sheer differentials in training stamina required between some of these fields. The fact that a higher annual income divided over a lesser number of years is subjected to a higher bracket than lower income divided over more years.

If you know that with your scores you could easily go into sleep medicine or anesthesiology and double the above numbers, you guys don't think that's something to consider? Do you guys know how your arguments would sound to anyone outside this bleeding-heart medical school crowd?

"Mom I'm considering two accounting jobs, tax accounting and corporate accounting. One pays 45k and one pays 130k."
"Well sweetie, don't be a charlatan, go with whichever one gives you more personal fulfillment."

ALL doctors are providing a profoundly valuable service: pediatricians, radiologists, anesthesiologists, cardiologists, surgeons, all of them. You are saving lives, have dedicated your life to it, and love it. It's a much more valuable service provided than almost all of the other professions paying similar levels (CEOs of toilet paper companies, people who own fast food restaurants). And in the United States, those services happen to be valued at 150-300k. TAKE IT. Fight for why you get paid that. Be the example so that some little kid can point at you, driving in your fine-ass car at 6am to the hospital to perform a life-saving procedure, and say "Mommy, THAT'S what I want to be." Use your strong income for good purposes, and to improve the lives of those in the personal sphere you live in. You're paying taxes just like the guy that owns that 6 Taco Bells in town, and that's your prerogative.

OP, you go and make some money in any field that gives you personal fulfillment and that you know you will do your best at, and save some lives. And if you like one specialty 9/10 and another 8/10 that pays double, you make the calculations you need to make and make yourself and your family proud. You earned it.

 

[DPTtoMD]

I really fear for the future of our profession when so many doctors-in-training have absolutely no desire to claim that they deserve pay and respect. Everyone here falling on the sword for no reason is ridiculous. Money isn't inherently evil. When you earn money in America, you aren't taking money from a farmer in Rwanda. There are broken political infrastructures in place that are causing that damage, not American physicians. And you don't need to spend money on a car; you can just as well spend it to repay your middle-class parents who sacrificed every discretionary dollar they had in their 30s to send you to private school and give you the best shot. You can donate it to your church, your alma mater, etc.

Agree with this. I have a hard time believing that physicians collectively taking a large pay cut will really solve anything. Go to work, help people, and make lots of money. If you feel like making $300,000 a year is too much, live on $50,000 and donate the other $250,000. There are physicians that do this (admittedly, it is rare).

 

[Winged Scapula]

Was the above table written by a Nurse Practitioner? It does not take 6 years *after college* to become one (I know that wasn't the purpose of the post, it just stood out to me).

 

[username456789]

[Snip]

Thank you for saying what I have been trying to put into words for a while now.

 

[SouthSideSteve]

Was the above table written by a Nurse Practitioner? It does not take 6 years *after college* to become one (I know that wasn't the purpose of the post, it just stood out to me).

that was the first thing I noticed as well. It makes me seriously question the information in that chart.

 

[IamPsychiatrist]

.

 

[IamPsychiatrist]

I really fear for the future of our profession when so many doctors-in-training have absolutely no desire to claim that they deserve pay and respect. Everyone here falling on the sword for no reason is ridiculous. Money isn't inherently evil. When you earn money in America, you aren't taking money from a farmer in Rwanda. There are broken political infrastructures in place that are causing that damage, not American physicians. And you don't need to spend money on a car; you can just as well spend it to repay your middle-class parents who sacrificed every discretionary dollar they had in their 30s to send you to private school and give you the best shot. You can donate it to your church, your alma mater, etc.

The OP's doubt of if she's getting paid what she's worth isn't so unreasonable:

View attachment 178522

Not adjusted for: loans. Who was in the library throughout their 20's and who wasn't. The sheer differentials in training stamina required between some of these fields. The fact that a higher annual income divided over a lesser number of years is subjected to a higher bracket than lower income divided over more years.

If you know that with your scores you could easily go into sleep medicine or anesthesiology and double the above numbers, you guys don't think that's something to consider? Do you guys know how your arguments would sound to anyone outside this bleeding-heart medical school crowd?

"Mom I'm considering two accounting jobs, tax accounting and corporate accounting. One pays 45k and one pays 130k."
"Well sweetie, don't be a charlatan, go with whichever one gives you more personal fulfillment."

ALL doctors are providing a profoundly valuable service: pediatricians, radiologists, anesthesiologists, cardiologists, surgeons, all of them. You are saving lives, have dedicated your life to it, and love it. It's a much more valuable service provided than almost all of the other professions paying similar levels (CEOs of toilet paper companies, people who own fast food restaurants). And in the United States, those services happen to be valued at 150-300k. TAKE IT. Fight for why you get paid that. Be the example so that some little kid can point at you, driving in your fine-ass car at 6am to the hospital to perform a life-saving procedure, and say "Mommy, THAT'S what I want to be." Use your strong income for good purposes, and to improve the lives of those in the personal sphere you live in. You're paying taxes just like the guy that owns that 6 Taco Bells in town, and that's your prerogative.

OP, you go and make some money in any field that gives you personal fulfillment and that you know you will do your best at, and save some lives. And if you like one specialty 9/10 and another 8/10 that pays double, you make the calculations you need to make and make yourself and your family proud. You earned it.

It's just money. It's not that important.

It's not about falling on a sword or whatever.

 

[username456789]

It's just money. It's not that important.

It actually kinda is, whether you think it should be or not.

 

[IamPsychiatrist]

It actually kinda is, whether you think it should be or not.

Well, yeah. To a point.

But it's not a big deal to me if I earn 200k or 400k. No one is starving here and 80% of us will probably have no trouble clearing 200k.

So yeah, it's not that important beyond providing basic necessities and occasional fun. Life consists of more than accumulating $ or things.

 

[Psai]

Well, yeah. To a point.

But it's not a big deal to me if I earn 200k or 400k. No one is starving here and 80% of us will probably have no trouble clearing 200k.

So yeah, it's not that important beyond providing basic necessities and occasional fun. Life consists of more than accumulating $ or things.

If you eat anything more than rice and beans then you're full of it.

Life IS about accumulating things. You want a better car, better house, a better wife than the next guy. Then you pass on your good genes. That's the point. You can be a martyr and "not starve" by yourself.

 

[IamPsychiatrist]

If you eat anything more than rice and beans then you're full of it.

Life IS about accumulating things. You want a better car, better house, a better wife than the next guy. Then you pass on your good genes. That's the point. You can be a martyr and "not starve" by yourself.

agree to disagree. I've eaten poorly and richly. I'll be happy with what I can afford - which is a lot if you earn 200k or more.

My life isn't about accumulating things. I don't want a better car, house or wife than the next guy. I'll be happy with what I have without comparing. If you compare, you will always find someone better than you. Which means you will never be satisfied.

How is being a top earner in America starving? 200k is a good living for anyone on earth.

 

[punkedoutriffs]

If you eat anything more than rice and beans then you're full of it.

Life IS about accumulating things. You want a better car, better house, a better wife than the next guy. Then you pass on your good genes. That's the point. You can be a martyr and "not starve" by yourself.

LOL! A regular philosopher, this one.

 

[deleted500612]

When the average American household has my education, my work ethic and my hours, let me know. By the way, the average American household is in debt and is pretty miserable right now. I don't believe that being average is something I aspire to as a physician. Nice insinuation with the rich physician, rich medical student nonsense though.

By the way, decreasing physician salaries won't make patient care any better or cheaper. All it will do is burden medical students with inescapable debt while lining the pockets of insurance companies, medical device companies and hospital administrators. Just look at GI. Guess who benefits when the GI doc hires a nurse to do the anesthesia? (There's nothing going for the patient when the GI doc siphons up the anesthesia fee along with a facility fee). You want a better system? Tort reform, less garbage from hospital administration and politicians along with a system that incentives people to care for their own bodies instead of leaving physicians to deal with the mess.

I think you completely missed the point of my post. I never said that doctors deserve to be paid less money or that nobody should be complaining about a 150k salary; your entire post has absolutely nothing to do with the point I was making. What I said was that she is not going to have financial worries paying off her debt with a 150k salary and a household income of 400k... I never said you, she or anyone else doesn't deserve more than that. I simply said it is a bit ridiculous to think you can't pay off debt on that income, when most Americans do it with far, far less income. I can completely understand why she wouldnt want to go peds or another relatively low-paying specialty when you could pick one that pays twice as much with the same length of training... but my point is stimply that you are never going to be wondering how you're going to get by and pay the bills on a 400k household income.

And yes, it is a fact that an abnormally large portion of medical students come from affluent families and are used to living very upper class lifestyles. These people have often had everything handed to them their entire life and tend to lose perspective on how much money a half million dollar household income really is. Now before you take my comments out of context once again, I am certainly not saying this level of income is undeserved. I also never said that you, or the OP, or anybody specifically falls into this category, but a lot of medical students certainly do.

 

[WaylonS]

Here are some random thoughts

We can argue until the cows come home whether someone can complain of having a combined family income of 300k. However, most Americans do not have student debt from two physicians. That being said, if you do IBR and drag your payments out for 10-20 years, your take home pay after loan repayments will likely leave you with a very comfortable income, however, over the life of your loans, you'll get killed by interest. At the same time, relative to future salary growth and inflation, the net-present value of your total interest is not actually as much--or as scary--as the total number suggests. On the other hand, if you can pay off your loans in 5 of fewer years, even if you're living like a resident for a few more years, you'll still have a pretty good quality of life, and once you're debt free, things will get even better.

Yeah, other jobs may allow you to earn a higher income faster, but would you be happy in any of those careers? Would you be happy as a petroleum engineer or as a CRNA or as a taco bell franchise owner? I know I wouldn't, regardless of how much I got paid.

The argument that physicians give up their 20's to become physicians is valid, as is the argument that we lose a minimum of four years of salary (and more depending on what your job before med school paid relative to what you will earn as a resident). What I think is a weak argument is that we miss out on several years of saving for retirement. Fewer that 3% of all Americans actually max out their pre-tax retirement accounts. As a physician, you'll be able to easily max out your pre-tax accounts (it'll be even easier if you're part of a cushy group that matches contributions). If a physicians maxes out their accounts, they should be able to close the gap and surpass people who haven't been maxing out relatively quickly, even if those people have seem favorable growth in their retirement holdings. Besides, this is only looking at pre-tax retirement accounts; hopefully you'll be saving and investing in other things to build up your nest egg. http://www.hcplive.com/physicians-m...ew-Americans-Max-Out-Retirement-Contributions

If you're worried about your potential future salary versus your expenses, make some excel charts and start crunching some numbers. It can be really, really scary at first, but at the same time, it can be kind of liberating to see what your finances will look like (or, well, as best as you can predict).

You only live once, so what's the point in doing a job you're going to hate. At the same time, don't have rose-tinted glasses: if you did an extra year of residency, you could make 1.5-2 X as much if you became an anesthesiologist of dermatologist. Right or wrong, in the current market, you will be paid less as a pediatrician. However, if you think you can meet your financial needs and be happy, then by all means, do it.

 

[chondroblast]

Money is important, there's no doubt about it. But choosing a specialty solely for monetary purposes isn't such a good idea. Hey, all physicians make a lot of money. You're not going to be poor as a pediatrician.

 

[Anastomoses]

Now first off, do what your passion is. If you want to do pediatrics, go for it. The physicians at the hospital where I went to as a kid had their salaries posted for public viewership. My former pediatrician makes $280,000. Just do a pediatric fellowship, you'll make more money that way. Also become a good job-hunter. The key is to be good at finding the right place.

I once saw a recruiter with a job for a salaried position as a pediatric endocrinologist (fellow) with base pay of $400 K. And call was only 1 to 8.

wow, really? I like endocrinology and immunology...but not the pediatric part.

 

[Anastomoses]

If you eat anything more than rice and beans then you're full of it.

Life IS about accumulating things. You want a better car, better house, a better wife than the next guy. Then you pass on your good genes. That's the point. You can be a martyr and "not starve" by yourself.

Actually, this mentality taken to its logical extreme is a certain road to misery. You're not getting Angelina Jolie to love you, ehhh...you might get a maserati if you are really that determined, and there's always something you won't get. The charm of the human mind is we have the option to be complicated...we can balance these desires with our satisfaction. We can say...eh, I'll settle for the cute salesgirl at the mall with a good attitude and quippy wit. I'll settle for the infiniti...it expresses me well...and some days I can eat vegetarian to watch my waistline. Someone who can strike this balance is brilliant. If it was all about the pursuit of the "best" and the "prettiest", oh dear...what a lame simple world indeed. Trust me, just visit Dubai.

And yeah, rice and beans won't cut it. no.