What If Vet School Had Fewer Acceptance Requirements?

[jmo1012]

One of the professors asked us if there were any courses/pre-reqs we thought an admissions committee should consider doing away for acceptance to veterinary school. Apparently the topics of massive educational debt and time spent to gain acceptance to veterinary school have been discussed a bunch, and something they had thought a lot about was how each pre-req costs a substantial amount of money and time for a candidate. Thoughts?

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[DVMDream]

I still don't see the importance of undergrad physics.. I know people will disagree, but I really don't see it used again in vet med in such a significant way that you need that foundation beforehand. Definitely the physics related things in vet med aren't even remotely covered in the undergrad courses, at least from what I was taught in undergrad physics.

I would also argue that any math requirement above maybe advanced algebra is largely unnecessary. I have yet to have to figure out a limit in vet school.

I really think communication or public speaking should be required by more schools.

I really don't think ochem is necessary, but it is often a pre-req for biochem, which I don't understand because the two really don't feed off of one another. I really think biochem and cell bio are good for pre-reqs for vet school.

 

[twelvetigers]

But perhaps difficult pre-reqs are a way to filter out less qualified applicants... like if you can't figure out a way to do well enough in orgoochem and physics...

Oh, I know, the hypocrisy is palpable. I did deplorably in both ochem and physics. But I'm not a stellar student now, either.

My point is - if the admission requirements are made easier, well... do we really need even more applicants? Will that encourage them to add more schools, more seats? Always a willing pre-vet hiney to fill the seats, yanno.

Reducing debt is great, but we need to know that if this were to cause an increase in applicants that it would not also spurn a more rapid increase in seats that the one we are already suffering from.

 

[LetItSnow]

I still don't see the importance of undergrad physics.. I know people will disagree, but I really don't see it used again in vet med in such a significant way that you need that foundation beforehand. Definitely the physics related things in vet med aren't even remotely covered in the undergrad courses, at least from what I was taught in undergrad physics.

I would also argue that any math requirement above maybe advanced algebra is largely unnecessary. I have yet to have to figure out a limit in vet school.

I really think communication or public speaking should be required by more schools.

I really don't think ochem is necessary, but it is often a pre-req for biochem, which I don't understand because the two really don't feed off of one another. I really think biochem and cell bio are good for pre-reqs for vet school.

Agreed on pretty much all accounts. I think I wouldn't ditch physics entirely, though - what would be nice (but doesn't exist that *I* know of) is a "Physics for Future Clinicians" type of thing. A one-semester course that covered the necessary physics for you to get through Physiology with a solid understanding of things like ventilation, cardiovascular fluid dynamics, cell membrane potentials, etc.

Biostatistics ought to be a requirement.

TT makes a pretty good point....

 

[DVMDream]

Agreed on pretty much all accounts. I think I wouldn't ditch physics entirely, though - what would be nice (but doesn't exist that *I* know of) is a "Physics for Future Clinicians" type of thing. A one-semester course that covered the necessary physics for you to get through Physiology with a solid understanding of things like ventilation, cardiovascular fluid dynamics, cell membrane potentials, etc.

Biostatistics ought to be a requirement.

TT makes a pretty good point....

I agree.. the physics for future clinicians would be good. Honestly, I didn't learn anything in undergrad physics that had any application to vet school. I learned about membrane potentials and cell membrane pumps, etc in cell bio, which is why I would highly recommend cellular biology as a pre-req. If there were only 2 classes to take prior to vet school I would easily pick cell bio followed by biochem.

I also agree with what TT said as well... very good point.

 

[LetItSnow]

I agree.. the physics for future clinicians would be good. Honestly, I didn't learn anything in undergrad physics that had any application to vet school. I learned about membrane potentials and cell membrane pumps, etc in cell bio, which is why I would highly recommend cellular biology as a pre-req. If there were only 2 classes to take prior to vet school I would easily pick cell bio followed by biochem.

I also agree with what TT said as well... very good point.

I felt like fluid stuff helps with cardiovascular ... and all the pressure/gas stuff helps with pulmonary ... But we spent a lot of time doing light physics (prisms 'n crap), magnetic stuff, electrical circuit stuff, Newtonian laws .... all that "if the ball rolls off the table how far will it go before it hits the floor" stuff that's interesting if you like physics, but not really applicable to what we're doing now.

I never took cell bio as a pre-req. If it's covered there, that would be nice. I could see that being a pre-req.

But we're adding more pre-reqs than we're taking away.

 

[lailanni]

I also agree that physics isn't really necessary (not in the way that we get taught in undergrad). Calculus was pretty much overkill, I've never used that ever again. Though I think that may have been one of my major's requirements and not necessary for my vet school apps. I think I could have done without genetics. My bio classes covered that pretty well and the extra genetics class was kind of more than I needed.

And +1 on the biochem being a good one to take before vet school. Communications and public speaking were required for my major and I appreciated what I gained from it. Biostats should have been required, it's very relevant.

 

[DVMDream]

I felt like fluid stuff helps with cardiovascular ... and all the pressure/gas stuff helps with pulmonary ... But we spent a lot of time doing light physics (prisms 'n crap), magnetic stuff, electrical circuit stuff, Newtonian laws .... all that "if the ball rolls off the table how far will it go before it hits the floor" stuff that's interesting if you like physics, but not really applicable to what we're doing now.

I never took cell bio as a pre-req. If it's covered there, that would be nice. I could see that being a pre-req.

But we're adding more pre-reqs than we're taking away.

Yeah, fluid stuff would be nice, but that wasn't covered in physics at least for me. We also learned all the crap you mentioned above in physics... if a ball travels down a ramp at x speed and there is a spring at the end blah, blah, blah... which is all pointless BS for people wanting to be vets or doctors...

I must post this picture:

I didn't take cell bio as a pre-req to vet school. I took it as part of my biology degree. It covered everything about action potentials, cell membrane proteins, Na/K pumps, diffusion, osmosis, the different types of diffusion, Ca dependent pumps, cyclic AMP, etc. It was literally the most helpful class I have ever taken prior to vet school. With biochem being a close second. The rest of undergrad, minus a bit of statistics has been purged from my mind forever.

 

[WillowLeaf]

Biochem and cell have already been useful in first year. I'm surprised cell isn't a prereq for many schools.

Genetics seems like an easy one to stop requiring. Almost everything from genetics was covered in general bio (and a little in cell/molecular, but the general concepts were in general bio). That prereq did feel like extra time/money without a lot of knowledge gained.

all that "if the ball rolls off the table how far will it go before it hits the floor" stuff that's interesting if you like physics, but not really applicable to what we're doing now.

I dunno, this might be useful knowledge. "When I drop this dog bowl, how many times will it crash into the floor before it stops bouncing, how much damage will it do when it inevitably lands on my foot, and how much sound will be produced?"

 

[dyachei]

How much does it really reduce, though? My concern is the cost of vet school. Most people can take most pre reqs at a cc or a state school. It's vet school that cost a lot more (even in state tuition).

Also physics prepped me for physiology and helped immensely in anesthesia. I'd rather see ochem go (or at least the second semester). Cell bio was a pre req for me.

 

[Caia]

Anything related to physics that has come up in vet school thus far I learned in Grade 11....doubt everyone takes it in high school, but Physics II was what I thought completely unnecessary. Circuits? No.

OChem II for sure too. I don't even remember what I learned or did in that class even with doing really well in it. Calculus too. Maybe that's because it was useless or because there's currently no room in my head, not sure which.

Public speaking I think would be GREAT. There can never be too much emphasis on communication imo. Stats I can see having a use for too...I mean, if you've never studied any sort of statistics, I'd hate to tack that on to the ciricullum just to be able to evaluate research stats in literature at the very least.

 

[Bracco Pointer]

I definitely agree about Physics. I took a cell bio class (although it wasn't required where I was applying) and it helped me immensely. I honestly remember nothing from orgo or biochem... and I really despised them both. Even when I was taking the exams, I could do well but never understand how. I took AP calculus in high school and never looked back.

I think without a doubt, a strong foundation in cell biology with a bit of simple genetics is really important. The rest... good weedouts but useless otherwise.

 

[StartingoverVet]

How much does it really reduce, though? My concern is the cost of vet school. Most people can take most pre reqs at a cc or a state school. It's vet school that cost a lot more (even in state tuition).

Also physics prepped me for physiology and helped immensely in anesthesia. I'd rather see ochem go (or at least the second semester). Cell bio was a pre req for me.

exactly. Cost of vet school is killing us, so vet schools try to eliminate a few pre-reqs? Like a ton of students are going to be able to what? Go to undergad college for 1 year less. I don't think so.

This one has me SMH>

 

[SocialStigma]

OVC still requires the MCAT and I personally think it's unnecessary. Physics isn't a prereq though, thankfully.

 

[katryn]

If anything, I would love to see more pre-reqs like basic microbiology, virology, things like that, and then not have to take them in vet school (or to be able to skip the basics in vet school and only cover diseases). I would have gladly taken extra courses in undergrad where they could have applied to my degree and cost a lot less.

 

[LetItSnow]

exactly. Cost of vet school is killing us, so vet schools try to eliminate a few pre-reqs? Like a ton of students are going to be able to what? Go to undergad college for 1 year less. I don't think so.

This one has me SMH>

Like a lot of problems, this one probably requires multiple changes. Eliminating some pre-reqs, however 'small' of a difference, adds up when you start looking at debt that grows in interest for that much longer.

I don't think anyone has said "this will totally fix the problems! Yay!". But every little bit helps. And it costs very, very little to look at the idea of changing pre-reqs (if possible) to reduce the debt pre-vet-school.

 

[that redhead]

If I had my own vet school, I think my pre-reqs would be something like: gen chem 1 (learn the ions and whatnot), microbio/cell bio, biochem, animal sciences (learn some livestock breeds, how to handle/be around large animals, basic large animal anatomy, etc), communication, statistics/biostat and ethics. I think organic and physics are essentially useless, except as weed outs.

At TRH CVM, there would also be some heavier bonus to students who'd been able to develop some handling/technical skills. I know SDN is divided on that, but I still maintain my tech and animal science labs have been the most valuable aspect of my application for school, especially clinics.

 

[MassDVMMPH]

This thread reminded me of a question a pre-med in my organic chemistry class asked our professor one day. "Why do people who want to become physicians have to take organic chemistry anyway?" Our prof's answer: "it helps the med schools WEED OUT THE IDIOTS." This was said as he glared at the kid (it was hilarious ).

 

[LyraGardenia]

I'm not in vet school yet, so I can't really weigh in on which pre-reqs were/weren't useful, but at least for me most of the pre-reqs (including physics, genetics, ochem, calculus, etc.) were also requirements for my biology degree. Theoretically I could have graduated in three years, or tried applying to vet school as a junior if I'd planned ahead that way, but I wanted the full four years of college life, and I wanted a degree as a safety net in case vet school doesn't work out. But I was fortunate in that I had a scholarship covering my tuition for four years -- if that weren't the case, I would have had to take out loans, and would have been scrambling to get everything done as quickly as possible. So I could definitely see how requiring fewer/different pre-reqs would lessen the debt load for those who want to just take their pre-reqs, or major in something unrelated, or graduate early. At least at my undergrad, even majoring in animal science requires a lot of strictly ag courses, and pre-vet students have to go above and beyond to fulfill pre-reqs.

I think the only class I had to take just as a pre-req and not for my degree was biochem. I also took classes like anatomy and physiology because I had the room in my schedule and needed the bio elective credits, and I snuck in a few animal science classes where I could (Mizzou, my IS, has a list of "recommended pre-reqs" including things like animal science, business, psychology, etc., and I tried to fit in as many of those as possible). That helped open up my options of where to apply, but it wasn't absolutely necessary. I didn't take cell bio, but I've only seen that as a pre-req at a handful of schools. We'll see if I end up regretting not taking it.

 

[Filly Bay]

Agreed on pretty much all accounts. I think I wouldn't ditch physics entirely, though - what would be nice (but doesn't exist that *I* know of) is a "Physics for Future Clinicians" type of thing. A one-semester course that covered the necessary physics for you to get through Physiology with a solid understanding of things like ventilation, cardiovascular fluid dynamics, cell membrane potentials, etc.

Biostatistics ought to be a requirement.

TT makes a pretty good point....

My undergrad had a course called "Physics for Health Care" or something similar that the pharmacy students took. It didn't fulfill the requirement for vet schools though so I took the regular physics I & II. It would be interesting to see what the course covered.

I dont think reducing the number of pre-reqs would help with the debt all that much. Especially for students going full time - taking 12 credits a semester costs the same as taking 18. 1 or 2 courses isn't going to affect the cost at all and would minimally affect the grades in other courses.

I took some courses that weren't required all any or some of the school I applied to that were really helpful such as anatomy & physiology, cell bio, microbio, epidemiology, immunology, animal repro, public speaking and various other animal science classes. Any of those would be a fair pre-req in my opinion.

 

[LetItSnow]

I dont think reducing the number of pre-reqs would help with the debt all that much. Especially for students going full time - taking 12 credits a semester costs the same as taking 18.

Except that that's not true at all institutions. If you do your pre-reqs at somewhere like a CC you pay per credit. You could make a significant dent in the pre-vet-school cost by reducing the # of pre-reqs as well as allowing them to be taken at cheaper institutions.

I personally like TRH CVM a lot.

 

[StartingoverVet]

If I had my own vet school, I think my pre-reqs would be something like: gen chem 1 (learn the ions and whatnot), microbio/cell bio, biochem, animal sciences (learn some livestock breeds, how to handle/be around large animals, basic large animal anatomy, etc), communication, statistics/biostat and ethics. I think organic and physics are essentially useless, except as weed outs.

At TRH CVM, there would also be some heavier bonus to students who'd been able to develop some handling/technical skills. I know SDN is divided on that, but I still maintain my tech and animal science labs have been the most valuable aspect of my application for school, especially clinics.

TRH CVM sounds like a large animal school.

And how are you going to teach biochem without organic chem?

Communication? Bleh.. Waste of time.

Ethics? WTF... total waste of time.

Sorry, not applying here. BUt thanks for adding to the glut of vets in the market.

 

[that redhead]

TRH CVM sounds like a large animal school.

And how are you going to teach biochem without organic chem?

Communication? Bleh.. Waste of time.

Ethics? WTF... total waste of time.

Sorry, not applying here. BUt thanks for adding to the glut of vets in the market.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic here...

Everyone I've met in vet school is comfortable walking up to a dog and putting a leash on it (provided it's not snarling and lunging), or picking up a cat (provided it's not growling and spitting) because they've had pets or been around friends' pets. Many people in my class were scared of horses and cows, didn't know how to halter them, etc. Basic knowledge of unfamiliar animals' body language, how to approach them safely, etc, is valuable for all vet students, not just LA people.

I didn't use any organic for my biochem class

I found my bioethics class to be helpful in learning to see points of view from both sides, how to form a good argument without getting too flustered, etc, which I consider to be an important skill as a professional in a field that is highly scrutinized (lab animal, production animal, etc).

 

[DVMDream]

And how are you going to teach biochem without organic chem?

Organic chem, from what I remember, has absolutely nothing to do with and did not help at all with biochem.

 

[LetItSnow]

Not sure if you're being sarcastic here...

Everyone I've met in vet school is comfortable walking up to a dog and putting a leash on it (provided it's not snarling and lunging), or picking up a cat (provided it's not growling and spitting) because they've had pets or been around friends' pets. Many people in my class were scared of horses and cows, didn't know how to halter them, etc. Basic knowledge of unfamiliar animals' body language, how to approach them safely, etc, is valuable for all vet students, not just LA people.

I didn't use any organic for my biochem class

I didn't use any organic chem knowledge for biochem class either. I can't remember any organic chemistry ever being necessary for vet school. Maybe in a really vague "better understanding of chemistry" way, but.... meh.

I don't really feel like improving my skills with horses, for example, would have been worth the money. I learned enough at vet school to get through vet school. I never intend to practice medicine on a horse (frankly, it'd be malpractice). I feel like people get the comfort they need with the species they'll treat, and they pick up enough on the rest to get through school.

 

[dyachei]

Not sure if you're being sarcastic here...

Everyone I've met in vet school is comfortable walking up to a dog and putting a leash on it (provided it's not snarling and lunging), or picking up a cat (provided it's not growling and spitting) because they've had pets or been around friends' pets. Many people in my class were scared of horses and cows, didn't know how to halter them, etc. Basic knowledge of unfamiliar animals' body language, how to approach them safely, etc, is valuable for all vet students, not just LA people.

I didn't use any organic for my biochem class

I found my bioethics class to be helpful in learning to see points of view from both sides, how to form a good argument without getting too flustered, etc, which I consider to be an important skill as a professional in a field that is highly scrutinized (lab animal, production animal, etc).

Yeah, but not everybody in your class is going to be dealing with large animals.

And I knew just as many large animal people that had NO training with cats. NONE. and they were pretty frightened.

 

[DVMDream]

Yeah, I only care enough about handling horses for the 2 weeks I am on equine rotation, after that... meh. I won't ever touch a horse again.

 

[that redhead]

I agree that the people who aren't going to practice on LA don't need the experience past vet school, but there were many times in school, both classroom and clinics, where it was helpful to be comfortable around the animals and have some foundational knowledge of them, especially since we're required to take at least 1 large animal rotation and 1 small animal (so each gets experience in the other). Whether or not an animal science pre-req would help, I can't really say, but I found it beneficial for my vet school experiences.

Edit: I would really only require 1 animal science class at TRH CVM, not like you need an Ag degree or anything

 

[dyachei]

I agree that the people who aren't going to practice on LA don't need the experience past vet school, but there were many times in school, both classroom and clinics, where it was helpful to be comfortable around the animals and have some foundational knowledge of them, especially since we're required to take at least 1 large animal rotation and 1 small animal (so each gets experience in the other). Whether or not an animal science pre-req would help, I can't really say, but I found it beneficial for my vet school experiences.

Edit: I would really only require 1 animal science class at TRH CVM, not like you need an Ag degree or anything

Right, but maybe if they are really concerned about cost, tracking may be a better way to achieve lower costs. Don't train every vet to work on every animal. Give enough experience for boards but otherwise choose a track

 

[StartingoverVet]

Not sure if you're being sarcastic here...

really? After all this time?

Rule #1 about interpreting SOV's posts: If there is any doubt about whether he is being sarcastic, he is being sarcastic.

 

[cowgirla]

I actually liked physics in undergrad.
But maybe that's because the professor was a biologist, it was geared towards life science students, and the TA was super hot.

 

[StartingoverVet]

I actually liked physics in undergrad.
But maybe that's because the professor was a biologist, it was geared towards life science students, and the TA was super hot.

I liked the physics classes too (they were physics for life science students), but can agree that there is very little carry over to vet school. Yeah, a few concepts in physiology used physics concepts, but otherwise I can see losing it.

 

[crv2016]

I was required to take two quarters of physics for my BS, so I would have had to take it regardless, but it would be nice if it wasn't a prereq. My IS only requires one semester, so my two quarters cover that, but there are a few instate schools I other wise have the prereqs for, but they require a year of physics. I'm trying to decide if I should take it at a CC to open up more schools, but I *hated* physics, and really don't want to.

I could have also done without Ochem. I went to a really large university, and gen chem, gen bio, intro physics and Ochem where all considered "weeder" classes. I did reasonably well in ochem and pretty well in physics, but my GPA would be so much better if there had been some "ochem and physics only as it applies to biology" classes instead of the full series on a curve that did nothing to help your grade.

 

[Coquette22]

I didn't use any organic for my biochem class

Same. Or if I did, it was presented in a way that it didn't look like organic chemistry. I also did MUCH better in biochemistry than in organic chemistry and I've used biochemistry way more than organic since getting to vet school.

 

[Cephal0pod]

I'm really intrigued by how many of you have commented that you felt you didn't use organic at all in biochem. I am in biochem right now and feel like we have used organic pretty significantly (thankful for a little validation that all the gray hair from last year was worth it! ). Don't get me wrong, ochem 1 and 2 were not the most enjoyable experiences of my life by any means. I definitely had quite a few occasions of sitting in lecture wondering how and when I was ever going to use what I was learning. But, I have been pleasantly surprised this semester especially by how I have ended up using some of it.

I definitely agree that communications/public speaking is a goodie. I took public speaking my sophomore year and, much to my surprise, it ended up being one of the most valuable classes I have taken so far. Physics I have no opinion on yet-- that's on deck for next year...

 

[Jess Monster]

From my experiences, requiring fewer pre-reqs wouldn't have saved me any money in undergrad. My major and the two minors I completed covered most if not all of the pre-reqs, so I would have taken them anyway. I suppose if someone is in a non-science major the pre-req's could add extra semesters worth of classwork.

Personally, I would be in favor of different pre-reqs. As others have mentioned, biostatistics is a great one to take. Other biology based and advanced sciences make sense too, like histology, virology, microbiology, epidemiology, etc.

Although, I can admit that I'm biased. I'm really good at biological sciences and math and not as good with chemistry.
Actually, over all of the 7+ years of college I've taken in two degree programs, ochem is still my worst academic experience, hands down.

Just for ****s and giggles: The pre-vet adviser for my school's ag college would always tell students, "Every class in vet school is like ochem."

 

[DVMDream]

From my experiences, requiring fewer pre-reqs wouldn't have saved me any money in undergrad. My major and the two minors I completed covered most if not all of the pre-reqs, so I would have taken them anyway. I suppose if someone is in a non-science major the pre-req's could add extra semesters worth of classwork.

They are talking about decreasng the pre-reqs and people not getting a degree from their undergrad institution. It would save money. Unless you really want the BS degree. I also got a BS in Biology and a minor in Chemistry... all the pre-reqs were required courses, plus some. Would be nice if we could remove some non-significant pre-reqs and make it so that people don't feel a BS degree is necessary to get into vet school.

And I don't think virology, histology, anatomy, etc are necessary pre-reqs.. you are going to be taught those things in vet school no matter what. Not only that, what are they going to do have undergrad vet virology and undergrad human virology? I think those are just largely unnecessary, you will learn that info in vet school and learn what you need to know.

 

[dyachei]

They are talking about decreasng the pre-reqs and people not getting a degree from their undergrad institution. It would save money. Unless you really want the BS degree. I also got a BS in Biology and a minor in Chemistry... all the pre-reqs were required courses, plus some. Would be nice if we could remove some non-significant pre-reqs and make it so that people don't feel a BS degree is necessary to get into vet school.

And I don't think virology, histology, anatomy, etc are necessary pre-reqs.. you are going to be taught those things in vet school no matter what. Not only that, what are they going to do have undergrad vet virology and undergrad human virology? I think those are just largely unnecessary, you will learn that info in vet school and learn what you need to know.

I strongly believe that having a degree is helpful. Not necessarily for getting into vet school, but for what to do with your life if you don't.

 

[DVMDream]

I strongly believe that having a degree is helpful. Not necessarily for getting into vet school, but for what to do with your life if you don't.

I agree. But decreasing the pre reqs to decrease cost would mean not getting a degree, otherwise it is pointless to decrease the pre reqs, still going to cost a full undergrad degree.

 

[dyachei]

I agree. But decreasing the pre reqs to decrease cost would mean not getting a degree, otherwise it is pointless to decrease the pre reqs, still going to cost a full undergrad degree.

I kind of do think it's pointless. That's part of my point.

 

[Jess Monster]

Not only that, what are they going to do have undergrad vet virology and undergrad human virology? I think those are just largely unnecessary, you will learn that info in vet school and learn what you need to know.

This may be neither here nor there, but why would there need to be separate virology courses for humans and animals (or maybe you mean pre-meds vs. pre-vets)? I've taken a couple virology courses and the scope was still pretty broad and the class make-up varied among science majors. I'm not suggesting that everyone have to take those specific courses, but as building science foundations go, there are more interesting and veterinary relevant courses out there that would be far more beneficial to future students.

Also, I agree. It would not be in the best interest of the student to forego a bachelor's and if that's what they're really suggesting, it isn't much of a solution.

 

[katryn]

I don't know how it is at other vet schools, but the first 2-3 weeks of each course ends up being review of basics to make sure everyone is on the same page. As someone who took stuff like micro, histo, virology as general courses in undergrad I found those weeks very pointless and then felt like the rest of the course material was crammed. I'd love to see intro classes like that as pre-reqs so the basics could be skipped and more time spent on actual diseases.

 

[Fly Racing]

As a non-trad, I did my prereqs in 3 semesters, plus biochem in the summer (I had done 1st semester of biology and chem in my first degree). I feel like 3 semesters of full science load was a good prep for vet school and prepared me well. I can see how Europe fits vet school in 5-6 years. You have a very focused basic science prep in the first year or two.

That won't cater to the students that wants the 'college' experience or need time figuring out college life/classes, but if the goal is purely to become a vet, I think the 5-6 year programs are ideal. I do think it only works because the prep classes are specifically the information you need to progress in vet school, not a bunch of human anatomy, physiology, ect.

 

[Karabiner13]

We just had a class discussion with the dean of our vet school. He brought up the idea of requiring fewer pre-reqs. He said the idea behind it was allowing students to complete the pre-reqs (in 2 years) and then have them go into vet school. He called it a 2 + 4 program. It was explained as a way to decrease the cost of education because the pre-reqs can be done in a relatively short time and then the rest of the time we spend out of the job market paying money to finish up a degree when we could potentially be in vet school and getting into the job market sooner. The dean acknowledged the fact that most people don't feel they are ready to be in vet school after only 2 years of undergrad and said they would probably do a pilot program of 10 students per class to see how it affected things. It was also said that there would be no increase in class size. This was just one idea that he talked about to try and help reduce our debt load. Thought I'd share seeing as this seemed relevant to this conversation.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I agree.. the physics for future clinicians would be good. Honestly, I didn't learn anything in undergrad physics that had any application to vet school. I learned about membrane potentials and cell membrane pumps, etc in cell bio, which is why I would highly recommend cellular biology as a pre-req. If there were only 2 classes to take prior to vet school I would easily pick cell bio followed by biochem.

I also agree with what TT said as well... very good point.

Funny that you recommend cell bio as a pre-req....Michigan just did away with that requirement after realizing very few schools have a course that resembles the undergrad cell bio course here. The school was having difficulty "encouraging quality OOS students to apply." They now give you a list of upper level science courses that you can take to fulfill that course requirement. Do any other schools require cell bio?

Doesn't Purdue require a genetics lab? I don't see why...

If undergrad courses could maintain focus on what is actually needed to succeed in veterinary schools, I feel like the amount of pre-reqs might be less of a sore spot since they'd be more helpful/useful. Except physics....although I'm not in vet school yet, I'm glad to see I wasn't totally off base in assuming most of my circuitry knowledge belongs on the front lawn.

 

[dalmatiandoc17]

Funny that you recommend cell bio as a pre-req....Michigan just did away with that requirement after realizing very few schools have a course that resembles the undergrad cell bio course here. The school was having difficulty "encouraging quality OOS students to apply." They now give you a list of upper level science courses that you can take to fulfill that course requirement. Do any other schools require cell bio?

I took cell bio specifically so I could apply to MSU, but I believe it opened up other schools for me. One of those that I applied to was UT-K (I didn't recheck this so apologies if I remember wrong).

I honestly hated that class in undergrad (partially due to a bad professor). But now that I'm in vet school, and am already done with our Cell Bio course, I'm immensely glad I took it. It's proven helpful in most classes for the first semester. Much more so than most classes I took in undergrad.

 

[Coquette22]

AVC technically only requires two years of pre-requisites. But most of us end up with a four year degree anyway, either because we didn't know we wanted to go to vet school right off the bat or didn't get in right away. There are a couple in my class that got in after the two years though. They don't seem to struggle with any of the work and certainly I wish I could have just done two years right out of high school and then gone to vet school because that would have significantly reduced my debt.

 

[DVMDream]

We just had a class discussion with the dean of our vet school. He brought up the idea of requiring fewer pre-reqs. He said the idea behind it was allowing students to complete the pre-reqs (in 2 years) and then have them go into vet school. He called it a 2 + 4 program. It was explained as a way to decrease the cost of education because the pre-reqs can be done in a relatively short time and then the rest of the time we spend out of the job market paying money to finish up a degree when we could potentially be in vet school and getting into the job market sooner. The dean acknowledged the fact that most people don't feel they are ready to be in vet school after only 2 years of undergrad and said they would probably do a pilot program of 10 students per class to see how it affected things. It was also said that there would be no increase in class size. This was just one idea that he talked about to try and help reduce our debt load. Thought I'd share seeing as this seemed relevant to this conversation.

Nothing against your dean or your school, it is nice to see that they are actually considering and recognizing there is an issue, but these are my thoughts on the "reducing pre-reqs" idea:

The problem with the reducing pre-reqs is as many people have mentioned already. There are quite a few people that don't know they want to do vet school until they already have a year or two of undergrad done. Then vet school requires insane amounts of experience prior to acceptance and you only have 2 years to get that experience while going to school and that is only if you happen to be one of those who knows they want to do vet school right when you attend college. Also, undergrad tuition isn't the big problem with vet med, it is the tuition from vet school that is the big issue. Trying to solve the high debt load of vet school by reducing the amount of pre-reqs to get in is like putting a band-aid on a bleeding artery. Sure, it might decrease the intensity of the blood coming through, but the patient is still going to bleed to death if you don't do something else.

Not only that vet schools will have to have a change in attitude in regards to acceptance as well. The vast majority of successful applicants have at least a 2 year associate's degree and most have a bachelor's... with maybe a few people getting in each year with no degree. Whether that is because more people apply once they have a degree vs. when they don't, I can't say. But then they have to change the "belief" that you need a degree to get accepted. I was well aware I didn't need one but I wanted one so that I had something to fall back on should vet school not work out (and considering I applied 3 times, that degree was almost needed, was going to move on after that 3rd app cycle if I was not successful).

To me it seems like the schools and AVMA might FINALLY be realizing there is an issue but they don't want to tackle the issue head on because that would directly cause them to lose some money. So they want to attempt to place patches everywhere but where there is actually a problem. Apparently the thought of just reducing vet school tuition is just not something that can be considered. Even if that weren't possible (which I don't see why any school needs to charge every student $50K/year in tuition), then do something like lock tuition at one rate for each class that enters... so if tuition was $45K your first year, then it is $45K for all 4 years. Tuition can then increase if needed for following years.

Just my thoughts. I still do believe there are quite a few pre-reqs for vet school that aren't really necessary but there would have to be a large change in thought process and push towards only doing pre-reqs before any benefit is seen from decreasing pre-reqs.

 

[LyraGardenia]

I took cell bio specifically so I could apply to MSU, but I believe it opened up other schools for me. One of those that I applied to was UT-K (I didn't recheck this so apologies if I remember wrong).

I honestly hated that class in undergrad (partially due to a bad professor). But now that I'm in vet school, and am already done with our Cell Bio course, I'm immensely glad I took it. It's proven helpful in most classes for the first semester. Much more so than most classes I took in undergrad.

Yup, UTK requires cell bio; that was what stopped me from applying there. Also Wisconsin recommends cell bio.

 

[battie]

Cell bio was required for us to graduate from our undergrad. It was originally a freshman level class, but was changed to a sophomore level class because so many freshman were getting Cs and lower. That was the first weed out class in our program. A lot of freshman weren't able to adapt their study style well enough to do well in their first semester. Most did much better as a sophomore.