What is a CRNA?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

layne20

Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
20+ Year Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2000
Messages
85
Reaction score
0
I don't mean to sound silly, but I am really ignorant on this subject. I was just wondering what the difference is between the duties of an anesthesiologist and a CRNA. I just started my third year of medical school and have absolutely no anesthesiology experience yet. I am very interested in doing anesthesiology, just by the things I have read about it, but I know a lady who is a CRNA, and she says that she does everything the anesthesiologists do. So, someone please help me figure this out! Thanks so much!
 
I'll be kind and refer you to the search button in the right hand corner of the screen before others hurl abuse at you.
 
Thanks very much for your reply. I am really sorry, as I don't know why anyone would want to hurl at me for asking this because I really don't know what a CRNA does. I have just read the term when it was just mentioned in passing on this forum. I guess you guys probably think this is impossible, but I have had ZERO experience in the OR. However, I will look it up, as you suggested. I don't mean to make anyone angry at me, so please don't be. Thanks very much!
 
Layne -

not sure how biased this link is, but here is one organization's opinion:
http://www.aana.com/crna/ataglance.asp

I've apparently been around SDN a bit longer than you, but I'm still trying to figure out CRNAs. So if any of the more experienced SDNers here want to give us their opinion on what they do and don't do, I'd love to hear it. Or if there is a good discussion here on the CRNA topic that didn't break into a nasty fight, a quick link would be great.
 
A CRNA is a Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetist. They are nurses who have experience in critical care (ICU, ER, etc.) who have completed 24-30 months of clinical anesthesia training. Their role is similar to that of PAs (Physician Assistants) for surgeons or internal medicine docs. They are skilled assistants for anesthesiologists.

It is troubling that some CRNAs insist that they are equivalent to anesthesiologists. They simply do not "do whatever anesthesiologists do". What typically happens is a CRNA and anesthesiologist start a case, applying monitors, inducing anesthesia, starting invasive lines, and intubating. Once the case is on cruise control, the MD leaves and the CRNA stays taking care of maintenence issues. The MD is available in the event of any trouble and returns for emergence.

This is an important issue for the future of anesthesiology in that their is a significant proportion of CRNAs who feel that they should be able to function as anesthesiologists (and bill accordingly). Their are several well executed studies that show a direct relationship between the level of MD anesthesiology care and the quality of the case outcome. Their is a lower mortality and morbidity rate associated with MD anesthesiology care vs CRNA care. CRNAs are important parts of the surgical care team, but they simply are not anesthesiologists.

That was a bit longer than I had planned, hope it helps. If you are considering anesthesiology I would expect that you would not be dissapointed. It is the best medical subspecialty, hands down. I encourage you to try a rotation in medical school, it is worth it.
 
I am not really qualified to answer this question..as I am premed.

I am an older premed however, and a close girlfriend is a CRNA. So I will offer up my 2cents which is really probably worth 1 here. She would probably piss in her pants if she read drvandeleigh's post...relegating her to a 'well trained assistant'. LOL I, too am interested in anesthesiology as a premed...so I did take some time to talk to her and shadow her briefly. She also introduced me to some MDAs to talk to. She actually works for an anesthesiology group and most cases she is actually alone doing everything an anesthesiologist would do...of course at half his/her salary. So, I can understand to an extent why the woman the OP talked to said she did everything an anesthesiologist did. Particularly in underserved areas, there may be NO MDA at all in the town.(She got offered a great position in like Podunk whereever....and she would have been the sole anesthesia provider.)

At any rate, this seems to be a HEATED debate on both ends...she directed me to Allnurses.com board and the CRNAS post threads similar to drvandeleigh's response( but in favor of nurses of course...with stats exact opposite in terms of mortality correlations). Not to complicate matters more, but MDAs do have assistants though that are actually MORE accurately the equivalent of PAs for surgery..they are called Anesthesiologist Assistants (AA). From what i understand (please do correct me if i am wrong) their scope of practice is different from CRNAs in that an MDA MUST be present for them to do anything....whereas that is clearly not the case if crnas are working without a mda in the town. This difference occurs in PAs and NPs....while all PAs must be practicing UNDER a physician...NPs can actually be sole practitioners. CrnAS are in fact advanced practice nurses (NPs).

Personally after having my son, where a crna administered my epidural and did my whole work up previous and wind down afterward..i didn't see a difference until of course he told me he was a crna (cause i immediately asked him how he liked being a MDA because I was interested in the specialty). Obviously there is more to anesthesia than just OB but I was extremely grateful nonetheless lol. Finally, from talking to my girlfriend, she prefers working with MDAs (not under)...in a team fashion...she thinks its the best possible patient care. (This is why she turned down the Podunk whereever job)
 
Yeah, it is a heated debate.

The bottomeline is that people have greed. MDA's want to hold their pie while CRNA's want a piece of it.

At the current rate, the regulation is not going to change anytime soon. So if CRNA's are not satisfied with their 150k salary, they should consider going through 4 years of med school + 4 years of residency and then come back and ask for 300k salary instead.

It is like everybody wants to be on the broadway show and make some money + fame. but the spots are limited. You can say that you are as good or even as talent as that guy on stage but, sorry, the pie has already been taken.
 
I've spent some time in the past working in a NICU, where NNP's and neonatologists worked both side by side and "under" the attending. That is, the NNP's presented their patient's to the attending each morning on rounds, much like a resident would.

Now, these NNP's were awesome. They could perform almost all procedures of an attending and direct the care of ultra-sick kiddo's. But i never once heard an NNP state, "We can do anything that the doctors can". In practice, they might be able to. But in the end, the responsibility wasn't theirs.

So how is it that CRNA's can often state, "We can do anything an MDA can"? I've known some excellent CRNA's who are able to run a normal, average case nearly indepentently. But I've yet to meet a CRNA who is fellowship trained in peds, CT, neuro, OB, transplant, regional, etc. I've yet to hear of a CRNA opening their own Pain clinic. I've yet to hear of a CRNA who routinely performs TEE's. Nor do I know of any CRNA's who attend on surgical ICU patients. You mention CRNA's preoping patients. What about complicated preops, such as the pregnant woman with significant AS?

I'm very glad CRNA's are well enough trained to feel so confident in their roles. Like all midlevel practitioners, they are indispensable to modern healthcare in America. I can't remember the last time I heard a midwife say they could do everything an obstetrician could. Or a PA state that their training was equal to that of a physician. While they can extend the abilities of physicians extremely well, their training does not allow them to be a replacement.

One MDA I know tackled the issue like this: If you have worked to be a respectable, well-trained and competent anesthesiologist,there will always be a demand for your care of the patient.
 
At the hospital in my hometown (ohio) CRNAs to absolutely everything the MDA's can do...without any MD supervision they do general, epidural, and spinal anesthesia, intubate, decide what drugs to give their patient and how much, decided when to give blood. They decide whether to keep the patient on a vent or not and decide whether the patient needs ICU. They round on patients post op for pain control. The only thing that they seem to dislike doing is putting in CVPs...only seen a CRNAs do a couple....usually they make the surgeon do it while most of the MDAs like to put in their own. The patient is billed for "anesthesia services" the same price whether they had a CRNA or an MDA. However, CRNAs make about half as much as the MDAs.

Despite them doing essentially the exact same things.....I would definately prefer an MD to a CRNA....they arent nearly as uptight about everything and know a lot more physiology...
 
Again, I state my point. CRNA's seem to do everything an MDA can do. For routine cases, they DO everything an MDA can. This is no different from most healthcare teams, whereby the mid-level practitioner can perform most, sometimes nearly all, of the same duties as the MD.

But medical training isn't just about the "routine". If it were, formal medical education could end shortly after internship. It doesn't. If anyone thinks otherwise, they should wait until their 3rd year of medical school before opining.

For instance: CRNA student doing anesthesia for a bilateral tubal ligation. Now, the CRNA student maybe have read about some, perhaps seen a few. The MDA has scrubbed in on, and performed, several. This difference become apparent as the CRNA student loads the pt w/ enough narcotic for a 45 minute procedure. The MD, by virtue of their cross-training, knows that this procedure lasts 15 minutes tops.

Again: CRNA's are very well trained and are a great asset in the healthcare team. But as with other midlevel practitioners, they are not physicians and their school is not a substitute for medical education.
 
I agree wholeheartedly that there is a difference in MDs and midlevel practitioners. I just am not sure I agree that people who could by all means be sole practitioners (NPs and CRNAs) should be called "highly trained assistants". Perhaps this has to do with my personal experience with NPs and crnas and a close friend who works as one. I think, at least in my town, there are some fundamental differences btw a Physician's Assistant and a Nurse Practitioner....in training and ultimately in practice. So it is hard for me to just group them altogether. Perhaps as I reach my goal of MD/DO I will change my mind.
 
Quote from Gator05: CRNA student doing anesthesia for a bilateral tubal ligation. Now, the CRNA student maybe have read about some, perhaps seen a few. The MDA has scrubbed in on, and performed, several. This difference become apparent as the CRNA student loads the pt w/ enough narcotic for a 45 minute procedure. The MD, by virtue of their cross-training, knows that this procedure lasts 15 minutes tops.

There's a direct correlation: As number of surgeons around an OR table increases, so does surgical time.
 
I'll have to disagree. Neurovascular cases involve 1 surgeon, and can take 12+ hours. Fast C-sections take 2 surgeons and can be done in less than an hour.

I understand your trend, but I disagree with it.
 
Good heavens, relax! I was referring to residencies. Increasing the number of residents around the OR table does increase surgery time. No one was born with a scalpel in their hand. It takes time and repetition to gain skill.
 
Sorry An_Yogi, you're right about that one! Cases which tend to attract crowds usually portend prolonged OR times.

Stepping off the soapbox....
 
Thanks, guys, for all of your replies!
 
Top