What is it with people and D.Os ?

[Columbia09]

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I was talking to this kid today about how I'm aiming for D.O school and he looked at me with disbelief and said why ? He later went on and said they aren't as respected as M.Ds and they have very few opportunities. Where are people getting this mentality from?

 

[DrMaximus]

This happened to me more than I would like to admit in undergrad when I told people that I was accepted to a DO school. Most people get it from shadowing docs in the older community who still see DOs as quacks.

Don't sweat it.

 

[GUH]

I was talking to this kid today about how I'm aiming for D.O school and he looked at me with disbelief and said why ? He later went on and said they aren't as respected as M.Ds and they have very few opportunities. Where are people getting this mentality from?

 

[swinsh01]

It's a lack of presence. There aren't DOs on TV, the title of MD is the only one popularly associated with medicine. This leads people to believe that DOs are less qualified, less privileged, and aren't "real doctors." Little do they know they have probably seen several DOs in their lifetime.

 

[Conflagration]

Who cares what they think? I mean, either way, you'll be a physician. And who is the person judging you? Some broski in the hospital? They don't exactly have room to judge.

It'll be all good. You'll be pulling in attending salary regardless of MD or DO. 🙂

 

[Columbia09]

Who cares what they think? I mean, either way, you'll be a physician. And who is the person judging you? Some broski in the hospital? They don't exactly have room to judge.

It'll be all good. You'll be pulling in attending salary regardless of MD or DO. 🙂

It was a terribly informed pre med. I'm just wondering where he got this idea from, his councilor?, a M.D ?, his professors?

 

[coolingglasses]

It was a terribly informed pre med. I'm just wondering where he got this idea from, his councilor?, a M.D ?, his professors?

probably SDN

 

[DrMaximus]

It was a terribly informed pre med. I'm just wondering where he got this idea from, his councilor?, a M.D ?, his professors?

Could be one of those or even all three of them. Could have even been from his parents or one of his friends. I know people who have given up on med school and pursued other things because they refused to take the DO route. It's interesting how people get things so ingrained in their minds that they will sacrifice their future for an idea.

 

[DrMaximus]

probably SDN

👍👍

Sad, but oh so true.

 

[Major]

probably SDN

Sdn Pre-allo

Lol

 

[Conflagration]

It was a terribly informed pre med. I'm just wondering where he got this idea from, his councilor?, a M.D ?, his professors?

For all we know the guy could be a House wannabe and because House doesn't have DO behind his name, he wasn't interested in being a DO either.

I sort of liked ER better because they didn't really have schlong contests over those sorts of things. That I saw. But I was so dejected when I found out Dr. Greene died. 🙁

Yeah, but SDN could have very well contributed to the attitude here. But the bits about the lack of opportunity makes me think it's coming from somewhere else.

 

[darklabel]

Bro, don't let a pre-med of all people make you feel bad.

Trust me, people with good to great stats get rejected from MD schools all the time. And not everyone reapplies or has the time and money to.

It baffles me how instead of practicing medicine as a DO, people will just give up medical school in general. But whatever, more spots for us

 

[coolingglasses]

Bro, don't let a pre-med of all people make you feel bad.

Trust me, people with good to great stats get rejected from MD schools all the time. And not everyone reapplies or has the time and money to.

It baffles me how instead of practicing medicine as a DO, people will just give up medical school in general. But whatever, more spots for us

Unless you're hoping hard for a specific, highly competitive speciality, I feel like it says something about you that you would change careers in lieu of being able to practice in full as a DO.

 

[darklabel]

Unless you're hoping hard for a specific, highly competitive speciality, I feel like it says something about you that you would change careers in lieu of being able to practice in full as a DO.

Heck even then, Derm is still attainable through AOA (despite the weird FM -> Derm thing). As for things like Urology and competitive Fellowships, that is lacking in the AOA world.

Also that Medical Student badge suits you 👍

 

[Columbia09]

Heck even then, Derm is still attainable through AOA (despite the weird FM -> Derm thing). As for things like Urology and competitive Fellowships, that is lacking in the AOA world.

Also that Medical Student badge suits you 👍

It's hard to be a urologist if you're a D.O ?

 

[guylewis]

It's hard to be a urologist if you're a D.O ?

it's supposedly like rad/onco/plastic. apparently harder to get in as a DO but not impossible.

 

[darklabel]

it's supposedly like rad/onco/plastic. apparently harder to get in as a DO but not impossible.

Not impossible, but highly improbable. ACGME is almost out of the question (barring those n=1 fellows) and AOA has only ~14 spots in the country I believe.

Idk how many AOA plastics there are if any and Onco has low amount of AOA spots as well.

 

[Columbia09]

Not impossible, but highly improbable. ACGME is almost out of the question (barring those n=1 fellows) and AOA has only ~14 spots in the country I believe.

Idk how many AOA plastics there are if any and Onco has low amount of AOA spots as well.

awwww I was actually aiming for oncology. So wait I thought D.Os and M.Ds were treated equally ? Why is it harder for one to get into a profession than the other? What do most D.Os become, general physicians ?

 

[advair250]

What's with SDN users from Pennsylvania repeatedly making useless threads? (Search button is your friend).

 

[guylewis]

awwww I was actually aiming for oncology. So wait I thought D.Os and M.Ds were treated equally ? Why is it harder for one to get into a profession than the other? What do most D.Os become, general physicians ?

ancient biases and beliefs against DOs that are dying out with the ancient doctors who subscribe to them.

 

[darklabel]

awwww I was actually aiming for oncology. So wait I thought D.Os and M.Ds were treated equally ? Why is it harder for one to get into a profession than the other? What do most D.Os become, general physicians ?

DOs and MDs are treated equally in the real world in the sense that they can both practice medicine without any boundaries in all 50 states. Now, ACGME Onco and Uro are already very competitive. For a DO to match well in the ACGME match, they should exceed their MD counterparts (Or at least better than the average MD student). As said by DO students in SDN such as cliqueish, Bacchus and Sly have mentioned, you need to apply to twice as many ACGME spots as MD students with your stats to get the same amount of interviews and this is assuming you have all that great med student stats (Step 1, rank, research pubs, etc).

Uro and Onco have so many well qualified MD applicants vying for those spots that its just not feasible for a DO. If you want options (such as Onco) open to you, then I suggest MD would be the best opportunity to get you there, but it certainly is any guarantee at all that you'll match Onco as an MD, just that you're more likely.

 

[acceptmeplease]

For all we know the guy could be a House wannabe and because House doesn't have DO behind his name, he wasn't interested in being a DO either.

I sort of liked ER better because they didn't really have schlong contests over those sorts of things. That I saw. But I was so dejected when I found out Dr. Greene died. 🙁

Yeah, but SDN could have very well contributed to the attitude here. But the bits about the lack of opportunity makes me think it's coming from somewhere else.

I remember that episode/season. I quit watching after that. Dr. Greene was awesome.

 

[Conflagration]

awwww I was actually aiming for oncology. So wait I thought D.Os and M.Ds were treated equally ? Why is it harder for one to get into a profession than the other? What do most D.Os become, general physicians ?

When you finish medical school, you earn the ability to be essentially on-the-job trained in the specialty of your choice(that's what a residency is). A residency pays you(albeit not much compared to attending salary) to get good at your specialty.

Because there are only so many hospitals, and an even smaller amount of them that could sustain a residency seat, there are limits to how many seats there are per specialty.

The AOA sponsors residency seats just for DO students that are available after you take the COMLEX. These tend to be focused on the primary care specialties(family, peds, OB/GYN, etc.), but there are slots available for just about every specialty.

There are allopathic residencies too- and lots of them. After all, there are a lot of allopathic students and there are residencies that cater to just about every specialty here too. What a DO student can do if they want to go to an allopathic residency is to take the USMLE and try to match into that residency.

A DO will have an easier time with getting into a primary care specialty simply because that's what a majority of the residencies are intended to train someone in. Although, it is not impossible for a DO to get into a more competitive specialty. You have to take the USMLE and kill it, though.

At least that is my understanding. ^^

 

[Roxas]

I was talking to this kid today about how I'm aiming for D.O school and he looked at me with disbelief and said why ? He later went on and said they aren't as respected as M.Ds and they have very few opportunities. Where are people getting this mentality from?

Even though this came from a pre-med, a large number of people don't even know the difference between nursing, medical assistant, and medical school. I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[Columbia09]

When you finish medical school, you earn the ability to be essentially on-the-job trained in the specialty of your choice(that's what a residency is). A residency pays you(albeit not much compared to attending salary) to get good at your specialty.

Because there are only so many hospitals, and an even smaller amount of them that could sustain a residency seat, there are limits to how many seats there are per specialty.

The AOA sponsors residency seats just for DO students that are available after you take the COMLEX. These tend to be focused on the primary care specialties(family, peds, OB/GYN, etc.), but there are slots available for just about every specialty.

There are allopathic residencies too- and lots of them. After all, there are a lot of allopathic students and there are residencies that cater to just about every specialty here too. What a DO student can do if they want to go to an allopathic residency is to take the USMLE and try to match into that residency.

A DO will have an easier time with getting into a primary care specialty simply because that's what a majority of the residencies are intended to train someone in. Although, it is not impossible for a DO to get into a more competitive specialty. You have to take the USMLE and kill it, though.

At least that is my understanding. ^^

Is that what most D.Os are ? I mean the D.O I'm currently shadowing is in internal medicine

 

[medickdb]

I was talking to this kid today about how I'm aiming for D.O school and he looked at me with disbelief and said why ? He later went on and said they aren't as respected as M.Ds and they have very few opportunities. Where are people getting this mentality from?

I don't know how many times I've had to put up with the same thing in varying respects. Most of the time, it's a premed who's ignorant of what a DO actually is. It's funny, as another poster pointed out, that someone would rather give up the opportunity to practice medicine if one does not get into 'the' school. I've worked with doctors from renowned US schools, but most have either been from schools I've never even heard of or from another country altogether. Not that it matters, but I think people forget that foreign medical graduates can test for a US MD depending on reciprocity agreements between their respective countries and the US.

No matter what career, there seem to be a select few that simply enjoy getting others riled up for some reason. Medicine is no exception. I see the same banter between paramedics and nurses all the time. My old supervisor, a paramedic and RN, used to joke with me, asking why I wasn't applying to a 'real' medical school. I simply replied that the joke would be on him when he found me hovering over his hospital bed one day.

When I converse with people outside of medicine, they either know what a DO is or they don't. The ones who know about osteopathic medicine have had nothing but positive things to say about it.

At the end of the day, it's largely on you what kind of doctor you want to be. Do you want to be the doctor everyone talks about behind his or her back? Or, do you want to be the doctor who his or her coworkers and patients hold in high regard?

Enabling this banter on any level helps no one.

 

[coolingglasses]

Is that what most D.Os are ? I mean the D.O I'm currently shadowing is in internal medicine

IM is primary care, if that's what you're wondering.

 

[Columbia09]

Just read something that primary care physicians usually aren't on call like surgeons, and some of them work half of the year and make 250, 000 ! Don't know how true that is

 

[IslandStyle808]

it's supposedly like rad/onco/plastic. apparently harder to get in as a DO but not impossible.

radiology is actually becoming more DO friendly. Rad Onco on the other hand is almost impossible to get as a DO.

 

[coolingglasses]

Heck even then, Derm is still attainable through AOA (despite the weird FM -> Derm thing). As for things like Urology and competitive Fellowships, that is lacking in the AOA world.

Also that Medical Student badge suits you 👍

Thanks! Although maybe not these past two nights... I've been awful about studying and we have a block next week

Just read something that primary care physicians usually aren't on call like surgeons, and some of them work half of the year and make 250, 000 ! Don't know how true that is

I'd wager it depends on how/where you practice. If you're doing IM in a big hospital, I'd think you'd be on call. If you're doing FM at a clinic in a rural town, maybe not. And I could see the pay being good in rural areas as this is where the PCP shortages tend to be.

radiology is actually becoming more DO friendly. Rad Onco on the other hand is almost impossible to get as a DO.

I've heard this too

 

[guylewis]

radiology is actually becoming more DO friendly. Rad Onco on the other hand is almost impossible to get as a DO.

I still don't get why Rad is so sought after. I mean, I bet the pay is great but don't those doctors have a tendency of dying of cancer far more often and a lot sooner than other docs. I dunno how appealing that sounds. I'd rather take my chances working at a nucular panner plant

 

[verynice]

I just think of it as less competition when people act like that. A friend from college is so obsessed with the letters "MD" that he is going to apply to Caribbean schools only. I asked him why he didn't want to apply DO and his only reason was that he knew a DO (yes, n=1) in his home state who was terrible.

It astounds me that there are so many ignorant people who pursue medicine. It's like they don't want to take the time to research their future profession.

Then again, maybe we obsess a little too much 😉

 

[coolingglasses]

I still don't get why Rad is so sought after. I mean, I bet the pay is great but don't those doctors have a tendency of dying of cancer far more often and a lot sooner than other docs. I dunno how appealing that sounds. I'd rather take my chances working at a nucular panner plant

I don't think the risk is that much higher, especially for docs. And if it were, rad techs would be getting dosed far more frequently than the docs.

High exposure exams where the radiologist is present... anything with fluoroscopy, including angiography/specials, possibly investigative CTs (biopsy, angio). Nothing else comes to mind.

Surgical staff probably get large doses too, if their exams are heavy on the C-arm (and some surgeons insist on not letting you off the exposure button as often as you might need to).

 

[IslandStyle808]

I still don't get why Rad is so sought after. I mean, I bet the pay is great but don't those doctors have a tendency of dying of cancer far more often and a lot sooner than other docs. I dunno how appealing that sounds. I'd rather take my chances working at a nucular panner plant

I don't have much knowledge in this area but here is a thread that addressed this concern.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=200869

I don't think the risk is that much higher, especially for docs. And if it were, rad techs would be getting dosed far more frequently than the docs.

High exposure exams where the radiologist is present... anything with fluoroscopy, including angiography/specials, possibly investigative CTs (biopsy, angio). Nothing else comes to mind.

Surgical staff probably get large doses too, if their exams are heavy on the C-arm (and some surgeons insist on not letting you off the exposure button as often as you might need to).

Plus the radiologist and radiation oncologist have specific training to deal with radiation. So they understand what to do to minimize risk more so than docs in other fields that are also exposed to high levels.

 

[cliquesh]

I still don't get why Rad is so sought after. I mean, I bet the pay is great but don't those doctors have a tendency of dying of cancer far more often and a lot sooner than other docs. I dunno how appealing that sounds. I'd rather take my chances working at a nucular panner plant

It was the highest paying field for awhile, you don't have to see patients, and your paper work is minimal.

 

[mcgst9]

I still don't get why Rad is so sought after. I mean, I bet the pay is great but don't those doctors have a tendency of dying of cancer far more often and a lot sooner than other docs. I dunno how appealing that sounds. I'd rather take my chances working at a nucular panner plant

I want to do radiology because I enjoy it. I have a degree as a nuclear medicine technologist and I just find everything about it incredibly interesting.

That's not to say that I will end up doing it after 4 years of medical school, but it is what I have planned for now.

The money and other things are just icing on the cake.


Also, what specialties are hard to get for DO other than oncology and plastic surgery? Does a roughly equal amount of DO's become surgeons, internal medicine, ect?

 

[Columbia09]

He says that his brother in laws are burn doctors and that they said d.os don't have much going for them.

 

[Columbia09]

I want to do radiology because I enjoy it. I have a degree as a nuclear medicine technologist and I just find everything about it incredibly interesting.

That's not to say that I will end up doing it after 4 years of medical school, but it is what I have planned for now.

The money and other things are just icing on the cake.


Also, what specialties are hard to get for DO other than oncology and plastic surgery? Does a roughly equal amount of DO's become surgeons, internal medicine, ect?

Don't radiologists just look at x ray scans and operate the machinery ? Do you need a strong physics back ground ?

 

[NontradCA]

He says that his brother in laws are burn doctors and that they said d.os don't have much going for them.

That's when you should've said "and you think you do because your sisters are banging some MDs? Ooo, now you might need to see them"

 

[mcgst9]

He says that his brother in laws are burn doctors and that they said d.os don't have much going for them.

He might be right, but only for his location.

My aunt works as a nurse at UPMC Presbyterian Hospital in Pittsburgh, PA, which is a very large hospital that does tons of research. She says that she hasn't seen very many DO in her 25+ years of being there. If I recall, she remembered only seeing one in recent years.

Unfortunately, old habits seem to die hard, and location is a major decider in where DO's get jobs it seems.

 

[mcgst9]

Don't radiologists just look at x ray scans and operate the machinery ? Do you need a strong physics back ground ?

I am pretty sure a doctor in radiology does ultrasound, x-rays, nuclear medicine, MRI, and PET (which is typically considered nuclear medicine). But I could be wrong.

As for operating machinery? I believe techs do all of that. A strong physics background is likely unnecessary unless the school teaches it.

 

[Columbia09]

He might be right, but only for his location.

My aunt works as a nurse at UPMC Presbyterian Hospital in Pittsburgh, PA, which is a very large hospital that does tons of research. She says that she hasn't seen very many DO in her 25+ years of being there. If I recall, she remembered only seeing one in recent years.

Unfortunately, old habits seem to die hard, and location is a major decider in where DO's get jobs it seems.

We're in ny so idk what that means

 

[cliquesh]

That's when you should've said "and you think you do because your sisters are banging some MDs? Ooo, now you might need to see them"

They look at xrays, CT, MRI, nuclear studies, PET scans, ultrasound, and mammography. They don't actually take the images. They just read them in their office. Radiologist can also do a fellowship in interventional radiology where they can perform procedures on patients, like placing drains, stents, taking biopsies, etc.They're kind of like surgeons. It's a cool field.

 

[mcgst9]

They look at xrays, CT, MRI, nuclear studies, PET scans, ultrasound, and mammography. They don't actually take the images. They just read them in their office. Radiologist can also do a fellowship in interventional radiology where they can perform procedures on patients, like placing drains, stents, taking biopsies, etc.They're kind of like surgeons. It's a cool field.

I am actually planning to shadow an interventional radiologist, too bad he's not a DO though! 😀

 

[darklabel]

I still don't get why Rad is so sought after. I mean, I bet the pay is great but don't those doctors have a tendency of dying of cancer far more often and a lot sooner than other docs. I dunno how appealing that sounds. I'd rather take my chances working at a nucular panner plant

Job market is becoming saturated, especially with the advent of telemedicine and what not. Pathology is also very DO friendly but the job market is so bad that every time I pass by those forums, it seems like the world is ending for them.

At least with primary care specialties, theres enough jobs almost everywhere that there shouldn't be much of an issue.

 

[SurgeDO]

Job market is becoming saturated, especially with the advent of telemedicine and what not. Pathology is also very DO friendly but the job market is so bad that every time I pass by those forums, it seems like the world is ending for them.

At least with primary care specialties, theres enough jobs almost everywhere that there shouldn't be much of an issue.

Physicians/med students/pre-meds tend to bitch about everything. That's why everything on SDN is doom and gloom--it's a conglomeration of pessimists.

Look back to the early beginnings of the anesthesia forum and you will think nurse anesthetists would have ruined medicine by now.

OP, you need to grow some thicker skin. In medicine, discrimination extends beyond your degree.

 

[mcgst9]

Job market is becoming saturated, especially with the advent of telemedicine and what not. Pathology is also very DO friendly but the job market is so bad that every time I pass by those forums, it seems like the world is ending for them.

At least with primary care specialties, theres enough jobs almost everywhere that there shouldn't be much of an issue.

What about this doctor shortage I keep hearing about?

 

[Radon XP]

OP, just ignore them. Once you're a physician, it's not like your job title will be "DO". You can just say you're a doctor/surgeon/whatever specialty

Out of curiosity, is EM medicine considered IM? Can DO's realistically match into EM? I've done some research, just looking into more insight.

 

[NeuroLAX]

OP, just ignore them. Once you're a physician, it's not like your job title will be "DO". You can just say you're a doctor/surgeon/whatever specialty

Out of curiosity, is EM medicine considered IM? Can DO's realistically match into EM? I've done some research, just looking into more insight.

Yes of course DOs match EM.

 

[sylvanthus]

OP, just ignore them. Once you're a physician, it's not like your job title will be "DO". You can just say you're a doctor/surgeon/whatever specialty

Out of curiosity, is EM medicine considered IM? Can DO's realistically match into EM? I've done some research, just looking into more insight.

EM is a separate specialty and yes DOs can match EM.