What is it with people and D.Os ?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
DrBowtie said:
Or they think there is some huge pool of adequately trained Indian radiologists twiddling their their thumbs waiting to took er jurbs!
Click to expand...

And it is totally cool for them to sign off on a report without an evaluation by their US counterparts.

Why am I here? I'm transferring to a school in Europe.
 
Do most DO's willingly go into primary care (peds, obgyn, etc) or are they kind of forced into it due to an abundance of residencies and less residencies for other specialties which have increased competitiveness?

Also, for jobs, can DO's get jobs at any location they want or do they really have to search?
 
csx said:
Do most DO's willingly go into primary care (peds, obgyn, etc) or are they kind of forced into it due to an abundance of residencies and less residencies for other specialties which have increased competitiveness?

Also, for jobs, can DO's get jobs at any location they want or do they really have to search?
Click to expand...

I think many people choose primary care. Why is there such a stigma on primary care?
 
acceptmeplease said:
I think many people choose primary care. Why is there such a stigma on primary care?
Click to expand...
generally it pays less than other specialties, though this has been a trend that has been changing since the Affordable Care Act which now puts a greater demand for primary care doctors. lately, primary care doctors have been seeing an overall pay increase whereas many specialties have seen stagnant or even falling wages. Not to mention, there are now a lot more incentives to go into primary care, especially in underserved communities, and the government is offering to pay off a good chunk of your med school debt in exchange of providing four years to these communities. I was talking to some OMS II students at Western and they were saying that getting a chance to work in those under-served communities after graduating is actually becoming quite competitive right now because of the awesome incentives.
 
Columbia09 said:
I was talking to this kid today about how I'm aiming for D.O school and he looked at me with disbelief and said why ? He later went on and said they aren't as respected as M.Ds and they have very few opportunities. Where are people getting this mentality from?
Click to expand...

God knows. To be honest, I knew of a person who was so set on getting into MD with a 63 Lizzy M (got into 4 MDs.... god knows how to be honest). She refused to consider going to a DO and told everyone she would have gone to a masters program to try to get the MD. I don't know her incentive. 🙄

My father has practiced for 30 years and said I've met some horrible MDs and some horrible DOs. He said he also knows DOs who are incredible surgeons. Especially one that who is barely in his late 30s and is somehow a head of his cardiology department at his hospital. Boss? 👍.

He is encouraging me to go to a DO if I can't get into a state MD. He said it is pretty much the same thing. He said he actually believes OMM is a useful tool to use in medicine. The doctors I previously shadowed said there is barely any difference. Only main difference: can't practice abroad as a DO (I'm not planning on doing this so it's fine)

DOs can make as much as MDs if not more. I know DOs who are making well more than my father and I know MDs making less.

I prefer DO because I like serving under-privileged areas and have been fascinated by two fields specifically: Emergency Medicine and Orthopedic Surgery. I do admit however if I can get into a MD (even if its a very low tier one), I think I would go there.

Carribean MD is my last resort if DO or MD do not work out.
 
Dreamstoo said:
God knows. To be honest, I knew of a person who was so set on getting into MD with a 63 Lizzy M (got into 4 MDs.... god knows how to be honest). She refused to consider going to a DO and told everyone she would have gone to a masters program to try to get the MD. I don't know her incentive. 🙄
Click to expand...

She was prolly really hott.
 
Dreamstoo said:
I prefer DO because I like serving under-privileged areas and have been fascinated by two fields specifically: Emergency Medicine and Orthopedic Surgery. I do admit however if I can get into a MD (even if its a very low tier one), I think I would go there.
Click to expand...

cool story (not being sarcastic). Isn't ortho/any surgery next to impossible to get into though if you're a DO?
 
csx said:
cool story (not being sarcastic). Isn't ortho/any surgery next to impossible to get into though if you're a DO?
Click to expand...

nope. if you really want it is possible. I know of a head of interventional cardiologist whose in his late 30s and is a DO. Anything is possible if you got the wheels to go the distance 👍. However, I do admit it is quite uncommon for DOs and requires outstanding marks in medical school. Surgery is possible. You can go to DO residencies for surgeries or if you take the USLME I believe (do not quote me on this), you can apply for MD residencies for surgeries. Look at PCOM has orthopedics, plastics, general surgery, a few more that I cannot remember has residencies for these specialities. It is a DO. It is one of my top osteopathic schools on schools I want to apply to in two years.
 
csx said:
cool story (not being sarcastic). Isn't ortho/any surgery next to impossible to get into though if you're a DO?
Click to expand...

Ortho is in the realm of possible for DOs to match.

The specialties that I have heard that are near impossible for DOs are ENT, Nurosuergery, Urology, Optho, Derm, anything Internal medicine specialized like GI or Cardiology, and Plastics.

Ortho, Gen Surgery, Family Med, OBGYN, PMR, GAS, etc, are all possible.
 
Dreamstoo said:
God knows. To be honest, I knew of a person who was so set on getting into MD with a 63 Lizzy M (got into 4 MDs.... god knows how to be honest). She refused to consider going to a DO and told everyone she would have gone to a masters program to try to get the MD. I don't know her incentive. 🙄

My father has practiced for 30 years and said I've met some horrible MDs and some horrible DOs. He said he also knows DOs who are incredible surgeons. Especially one that who is barely in his late 30s and is somehow a head of his cardiology department at his hospital. Boss? 👍.

He is encouraging me to go to a DO if I can't get into a state MD. He said it is pretty much the same thing. He said he actually believes OMM is a useful tool to use in medicine. The doctors I previously shadowed said there is barely any difference. Only main difference: can't practice abroad as a DO (I'm not planning on doing this so it's fine)

DOs can make as much as MDs if not more. I know DOs who are making well more than my father and I know MDs making less.

I prefer DO because I like serving under-privileged areas and have been fascinated by two fields specifically: Emergency Medicine and Orthopedic Surgery. I do admit however if I can get into a MD (even if its a very low tier one), I think I would go there.

Carribean MD is my last resort if DO or MD do not work out.
Click to expand...

I was like that in the beginning too, I was only aiming for MD but then I asked myself why do I want to be an MD instead of a DO.. and the answer was only prestige and recognition.. I realized I would choose being a primary care doctor over prestige any day ..plus I believe in patient-centered medicine over disease-centered medicine.
 
GypsyHummus said:
Ortho is in the realm of possible for DOs to match.

The specialties that I have heard that are near impossible for DOs are ENT, Nurosuergery, Urology, Optho, Derm, anything Internal medicine specialized like GI or Cardiology, and Plastics.

Ortho, Gen Surgery, Family Med, OBGYN, PMR, GAS, etc, are all possible.
Click to expand...


I would agree with all of that but I would say Cardiology is doable. I've met 3 DOs who are Cardiologist at a hospital (granted the department I worked in had about 14-15 doctors). I've seen more DO Cardiologists then anything where I live.

And spot on with the "possible" matches. I agree entirely with those listed. Plastics and dermatology are near impossible to get even as MDs. Cousin is a dermatologist and has a lot less stress than her husband who is a gen surgeon.

I actually want to pursue Orthopedic surgery specifically on sports related injuries (torn ACLs/MCLs). Hopefully this dream can be fulfilled.
 
GypsyHummus said:
Ortho is in the realm of possible for DOs to match.

The specialties that I have heard that are near impossible for DOs are ENT, Nurosuergery, Urology, Optho, Derm, anything Internal medicine specialized like GI or Cardiology, and Plastics.

Ortho, Gen Surgery, Family Med, OBGYN, PMR, GAS, etc, are all possible.
Click to expand...

Plastics is very much in the possibility for DO's... there are no directly integrated plastics programs that I am aware of but there are a number of DO plastics fellowships and many of them will let you match in after your third year of GS residency.

Survivor DO
 
survivordo said:
Plastics is very much in the possibility for DO's... there are no directly integrated plastics programs that I am aware of but there are a number of DO plastics fellowships and many of them will let you match in after your third year of GS residency.

Survivor DO
Click to expand...

There are 7 total. Most take 1 fellow per year except for pcoms program, which takes 3 to 4.

GI is the hardest of the acgme IM fellowships for DOs (16 matched and 32 failed to match). Cardiology (28 matched and 15 failed to match) and hem/onc (26 matched and 15 failed to match) are more DO friendly.

There are many (26) AOA cardiology fellowships.
 
It absolutely astounds me every time people post you can't do "X, Y, or Z if you're a DO" and base it on either what "they've heard" or "what they've read on SDN."

Use this link (a 5 second google search):

http://opportunities.osteopathic.org/search/search.cfm

That will show you all of the current AOA residencies.

Now, take a look at the percentage of DOs applying to competitive AOA residencies versus number of accepted applicants (surprise, surprise its on the AACOM website):

http://data.aacom.org/media/DO_GME_match_2011.pdf

If you want to, you can compare it to ACGME residencies for MDs applying to the most competitive residencies:

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf

Take away message... the ratio of applicants applying per position to the number of positions available isn't that different from MD. Neurosurgery will still be hard as $%*# no matter where you go to school - same for ENT, ortho, cardiology fellowship, etc. It's not like the acceptance rate is 10% for graduates applying. While there aren't as many DO positions available, there aren't as many applicants and graduates either -- THIS IS TRULY WHAT MATTERS.

If you're comparing DOs matching ACGME surgical subspecialties that is a different story, but people on here seem to forget the AOA route when repeating what other people tell them. If you aren't going to place ortho as a DO and that's what you were set on, you sure weren't going to just because you went to a MD school.

Furthermore, the number of countries DOs can practice in is in the high 60s to 70s now and will continue to expand...
 
Dreamstoo said:
nope. if you really want it is possible. I know of a head of interventional cardiologist whose in his late 30s and is a DO. Anything is possible if you got the wheels to go the distance 👍. However, I do admit it is quite uncommon for DOs and requires outstanding marks in medical school. Surgery is possible. You can go to DO residencies for surgeries or if you take the USLME I believe (do not quote me on this), you can apply for MD residencies for surgeries. Look at PCOM has orthopedics, plastics, general surgery, a few more that I cannot remember has residencies for these specialities. It is a DO. It is one of my top osteopathic schools on schools I want to apply to in two years.
Click to expand...

Just like everyone wants a +35 on the MCAT. Lets be realistic here.
 
DrEnderW said:
It absolutely astounds me every time people post you can't do "X, Y, or Z if you're a DO" and base it on either what "they've heard" or "what they've read on SDN."

Use this link (a 5 second google search):

http://opportunities.osteopathic.org/search/search.cfm

That will show you all of the current AOA residencies.

Now, take a look at the percentage of DOs applying to competitive AOA residencies versus number of accepted applicants (surprise, surprise its on the AACOM website):

http://data.aacom.org/media/DO_GME_match_2011.pdf

If you want to, you can compare it to ACGME residencies for MDs applying to the most competitive residencies:

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf

Take away message... the ratio of applicants applying per position to the number of positions available isn't that different from MD. Neurosurgery will still be hard as $%*# no matter where you go to school - same for ENT, ortho, cardiology fellowship, etc. It's not like the acceptance rate is 10% for graduates applying. While there aren't as many DO positions available, there aren't as many applicants and graduates either -- THIS IS TRULY WHAT MATTERS.

If you're comparing DOs matching ACGME surgical subspecialties that is a different story, but people on here seem to forget the AOA route when repeating what other people tell them. If you aren't going to place ortho as a DO and that's what you were set on, you sure weren't going to just because you went to a MD school.

Furthermore, the number of countries DOs can practice in is in the high 60s to 70s now and will continue to expand...
Click to expand...

😱 Awesome!
 
Did everyone just forget that hiring committees CARE about where you did your residency?
 
Anicetus said:
Did everyone just forget that hiring committees CARE about where you did your residency?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you're referring to, but AOA trained physicians do fine, at least the surgical specialists. A senior aoa urology resident I met had numerous job offers 1.5 years before he graduated. The job he accepted starts at 450k and he is eligible for partnership after 3 years. The job is also in a good city.
 
cliquesh said:
I'm not sure what you're referring to, but AOA trained physicians do fine, at least the surgical specialists. A senior aoa urology resident I met had numerous job offers 1.5 years before he graduated. The job he accepted starts at 450k and he is eligible for partnership after 3 years. The job is also in a good city.
Click to expand...

Why is there such an income disparity between primary care and surgical specialties? Like, a family med doc would never bring in that kind of money his first year and only make that much if he was a savvy business man. I guess thats why there is so much competition for the surgical specialties.
 
GypsyHummus said:
Why is there such an income disparity between primary care and surgical specialties? Like, a family med doc would never bring in that kind of money his first year and only make that much if he was a savvy business man. I guess thats why there is so much competition for the surgical specialties.
Click to expand...

Cuz surgeons are better looking.
 
DrEnderW said:
It absolutely astounds me every time people post you can't do "X, Y, or Z if you're a DO" and base it on either what "they've heard" or "what they've read on SDN."

Use this link (a 5 second google search):

http://opportunities.osteopathic.org/search/search.cfm

That will show you all of the current AOA residencies.

Now, take a look at the percentage of DOs applying to competitive AOA residencies versus number of accepted applicants (surprise, surprise its on the AACOM website):

http://data.aacom.org/media/DO_GME_match_2011.pdf

If you want to, you can compare it to ACGME residencies for MDs applying to the most competitive residencies:

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf

Take away message... the ratio of applicants applying per position to the number of positions available isn't that different from MD. Neurosurgery will still be hard as $%*# no matter where you go to school - same for ENT, ortho, cardiology fellowship, etc. It's not like the acceptance rate is 10% for graduates applying. While there aren't as many DO positions available, there aren't as many applicants and graduates either -- THIS IS TRULY WHAT MATTERS.

If you're comparing DOs matching ACGME surgical subspecialties that is a different story, but people on here seem to forget the AOA route when repeating what other people tell them. If you aren't going to place ortho as a DO and that's what you were set on, you sure weren't going to just because you went to a MD school.

Furthermore, the number of countries DOs can practice in is in the high 60s to 70s now and will continue to expand...
Click to expand...

Looking at Ortho, it's 56 % v. 77%. That's pretty significant. That being said there probably less than qualified applicants who have no business doing so on the DO side.
 
Anicetus said:
Did everyone just forget that hiring committees CARE about where you did your residency?
Click to expand...

Not really. They usually want a letter of Recommendation from your PD, a certificate of completion, Medical School diploma, a LOR from physicians you worked with, preferably from that facility, background/ credit check, and a license for the state you want to work in. Where this all comes from really is not a big factor.
 
cliquesh said:
I'm not sure what you're referring to, but AOA trained physicians do fine, at least the surgical specialists. A senior aoa urology resident I met had numerous job offers 1.5 years before he graduated. The job he accepted starts at 450k and he is eligible for partnership after 3 years. The job is also in a good city.
Click to expand...

Maybe it was just in California then. I have friends' parents on the hiring committees that say where you did your residency counts and although they don't care about MD vs DO, they do care about ACGME vs AOA.
 
GypsyHummus said:
Ortho is in the realm of possible for DOs to match.

The specialties that I have heard that are near impossible for DOs are ENT, Nurosuergery, Urology, Optho, Derm, anything Internal medicine specialized like GI or Cardiology, and Plastics.

Ortho, Gen Surgery, Family Med, OBGYN, PMR, GAS, etc, are all possible.
Click to expand...

Haha what? The derm practice that I go to is owned by a husband and wife, both DOs. A friend of mine is a neuro resident who graduated from Nova.

There are DOs in every specialty, there's just fewer of them than MDs.
 
GypsyHummus said:
Ortho is in the realm of possible for DOs to match.

The specialties that I have heard that are near impossible for DOs are ENT, Nurosuergery, Urology, Optho, Derm, anything Internal medicine specialized like GI or Cardiology, and Plastics.

Ortho, Gen Surgery, Family Med, OBGYN, PMR, GAS, etc, are all possible.
Click to expand...

I don't think your list of "impossibles" is quite right....I think what really happens is fewer DOs go for that. But if you look at the DMU match list for class of 2013 there are ENT/facial plastic, optho, and urology matches.

I also, for kicks and giggles, went to my local hospital's "search for a physician" page and searched each specialty for DOs specifically...I found multiple DOs to be working in gastroenterology, transplant, vascular surgery, ENT, optho, derm, neurology, oncology, nephrology, infectious disease, cardiology, urology, plastics, general surgery, ortho, rheumatology, pulmonary disease....basically every specialty except neurosurgery and allergy/immunology. Of course that's just my local hospital....so maybe there are some DOs in that specialty elsewhere.
Anywho....
 
Dreamstoo said:
My father has practiced for 30 years and said I've met some horrible MDs and some horrible DOs. He said he also knows DOs who are incredible surgeons. Especially one that who is barely in his late 30s and is somehow a head of his cardiology department at his hospital. Boss? 👍.
Click to expand...

Cardiology is not a surgical subspecialty.


Carl Seitan said:
Haha what? The derm practice that I go to is owned by a husband and wife, both DOs. A friend of mine is a neuro resident who graduated from Nova.
Click to expand...

Neuro and neurosurgery are very, very different in terms of competitiveness. NS is competitive. A potted plant could match into neurology.
 
Instatewaiter said:
Neuro and neurosurgery are very, very different in terms of competitiveness. NS is competitive. A potted plant could match into neurology.
Click to expand...

Thanks for clarifying that neurosurgery and neurology were two different things.🙄

GypsyHummus said:
The specialties that I have heard that are near impossible for DOs are ENT, Nurosuergery, Urology, Optho, Derm, anything Internal medicine specialized like GI or Cardiology, and Plastics.
Click to expand...
 
I had to explain to my sister, who is a NURSE going for her NP that DOs have the same practice rights as MDs and that I can do any type of medicine(she was under the impression DOs can't be surgeons). :smack:
 
My GI doc is a DO who graduated from PCOM
 
I wanted to find out if there were neurosurgeons and immunologists with DO credentials so.....

I just googled "DO neurosurgery" and found some. One graduated from NOVA and does pediatric and adult neurosurgery and the other I looked at graduated from KCUMB and is the chief neurosurgeon at his hospital. So, yes, it is possible to get this specialty as a DO.
A third I found is the director of neurosurgery at his hospital.

Also found a few DO allergist/immunologists who graduated from PCOM, DMU, and Chicago....one did her fellowship at Johns Hopkins....

Putting it out there that certain specialties for DOs are "near impossible" is just excessive. It may be difficult because there are fewer positions available for residency and fellowship training but it's not near impossible.
 
I'll state the obvious. Perhaps people have issues with DOs sometimes because to most people it screams "I couldn't get into an MD school", which means to the common people that DOs were not "smart" enough for "normal" medical school.

People are assuming and judgmental. That's how our country is. Just deal with it.
 
I feel like DOs more so come in different categories

1. Omm true believers
2. This school has the best location for my family
3. I partied too hard freshman year
4. Im non trad


None of these really have any bearing on how good of a doctor you are going to be imo
 
touchpause13 said:
I feel like DOs more so come in different categories

1. Omm true believers
2. This school has the best location for my family
3. I partied too hard freshman year
4. Im non trad


None of these really have any bearing on how good of a doctor you are going to be imo
Click to expand...

I'm sure a lot of us can agree on this but the "common people" wouldn't know. They'd just assume we weren't smart enough for MD. This could depend on the location but for common people less informed about the medical world in general wouldn't have the slightest clue the difference between MD and DO while common people that have somewhat of an idea of the system, would jump to the conclusion that we just weren't smart enough for "normal" medical school.

It also doesn't help when some people actually go so far as to look up the avg GPA and think "my GPA in college was higher than a 3.2! I'm smarter than this doctor!"
 
Anicetus said:
I'll state the obvious. Perhaps people have issues with DOs sometimes because to most people it screams "I couldn't get into an MD school", which means to the common people that DOs were not "smart" enough for "normal" medical school.

People are assuming and judgmental. That's how our country is. Just deal with it.
Click to expand...

Yep, that is true. A lot of people say stuff like that. It's sad. It happens in my area a lot because there are a lot of kids who had parents who were MD doctors.
 
Out of all my friends and family who have been treated by DOs, only once have I heard a complaint. Most of the people who I meet who have either worked with a DO or been treated by one only have the best things to say about them. 👍
 
I had an advisor tell me that if I go DO I will only be able to do family medicine :smack:

Not that it matters or anything because I'm kinda wanting to do rural medicine anyway.

Just the fact that she may be misinforming so many premeds that seek her advice...
 
tigerbadger said:
I had an advisor tell me that if I go DO I will only be able to do family medicine :smack:

Not that it matters or anything because I'm kinda wanting to do rural medicine anyway.

Just the fact that she may be misinforming so many premeds that seek her advice...
Click to expand...

Reminds me of half of the pre-meds in my major.
 
tigerbadger said:
I had an advisor tell me that if I go DO I will only be able to do family medicine :smack:

Not that it matters or anything because I'm kinda wanting to do rural medicine anyway.

Just the fact that she may be misinforming so many premeds that seek her advice...
Click to expand...

Dreamstoo said:
Reminds me of half of the pre-meds in my major.
Click to expand...

Its sad premeds see Family Medicine in such a negative light and use it in a derogatory fashion. I can't believe and Advisor would be so negative about primary care.
 
darklabel said:
Its sad premeds see Family Medicine in such a negative light and use it in a derogatory fashion. I can't believe and Advisor would be so negative about primary care.
Click to expand...

Aye. Even those FP's who find themselves making less than others still have several times more income than the average person. Not to mention the ability to form long-term relationships with their patients.
 
had no interest whatsoever in FP prior to my job shadow of an FP...now it's on the list of possibilities. I'm still leaning more IM with a subspecialty but I really enjoyed FP and how you have to know a little of everything to do it well. As an FP you are the front line -- you basically see everything up front. It's quite interesting. Some days, yes, are all physicals and sore throats but some days are full of the odd and abnormal....it was a good time.
 
acceptmeplease said:
I think many people choose primary care. Why is there such a stigma on primary care?
Click to expand...

Ever shadowed an FM physician? 8+ hours a day of hypertension, diabetes, depression, physicals, and smoking cessation or weight loss counseling. No thanks.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

M
  • Locked
DO bias? is it real or is it more nuanced?
Replies
1
Views
965
wysdoc
wysdoc
D
WAMC is it realistic to apply or not
Replies
7
Views
1K
deleted610572
D
A
Interviewing with AZCOM and CCOM
Replies
2
Views
1K
DrFutureDO
DrFutureDO
I
AACOMAS-how does fee assistance work and is it too late to get it
Replies
2
Views
2K
infinitestars
I
M
  • Locked
Is it a red flag that my LORs include my AAMC ID?
Replies
5
Views
889
minst
M
Top