What is SGU's current WMPG pass percentage?

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aformerstudent

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I was reading through the Tameer SGU blog and a student who recently matched said that basic sciences WMPG has been bumped from 75 to 82. Can anyone confirm this?

If this is the case, it just shows you how risky going to the Caribbean is getting as even the for-profit schools are weeding out more aggressively.

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The conclusions you make from looking at unverified arbitrary numbers are meaningless. Maybe they are making the tests easier and people will have overall higher test scores.

Why would a Caribbean school ever "weed out" students that could otherwise continue on to practice medicine. That's less students, i.e. less money. Caribbean schools make a profit from each individual student, so why on earth would they want to arbitrarily "weed out" more students.

Despite the nonsense that is stated on this forum, the big Caribbean schools do actually want as many people as possible to graduate. But they also don't want people completing their programs that can't pass the boards. They make their grading and promotion policies as minimal as they can to ensure that most people who make it to the point of the USMLEs can pass them. Caribbean schools accept basically anyone, and they in no way want to "weed" people out. They in fact want as many people as possible to pass, but they also want those who pass to be able to actually complete the USMLE.

This is what they have always done, and this is what they will continue to do.
 
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That was not an essay question man.
 
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Sorry, thought a longer response was in order because you keep making posts that show you're clueless about what minimum passing scores actually represent.

Case in point,
This might be a little late but have you asked what the passing score is at every other Caribbean school? Some schools have a higher passing score than others. Lets say your school has a pass of 69 and you got a 65 and another school has a pass of 62 then you can take that score and present it to that school. I can't offer you specifics but I've heard of med 5's at my old school doing just that because our school has a higher minimum pass than others. Don't give up unless you absolutely must give up at this point.
 
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Are you a Caribbean medical student? If you are not, you should not be responding to my posts or anyone who is on or going down this route as you are not being of any help. The post you so kindly quoted is referring to NBME comp exam scores that most every Carib student takes at the end of basic sciences which are scaled scores.
 
Are you a Caribbean medical student? If you are not, you should not be responding to my posts or anyone who is on or going down this route as you are not being of any help. The post you so kindly quoted is referring to NBME comp exam scores that most every Carib student takes at the end of basic sciences which are scaled scores.


Dude... you're back at it again? Give it a rest. You're done with the Caribbean so leave it behind you and move on. I also don't get why you would berate the only person who gave you a response... it was also 100% accurate.
 
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I don't think it is "risk" as much as competitiveness. SGU and Ross are getting more competitive... Like previously mentioned they aren't making an effort to fail anyone. They want people to succeed and have many resources in place to help students who struggle, but they aren't stupid. They know the statistics and how many people will fail. These are money making machines and if they need more clinical spots there are US hospitals in big cities that are crying for money all over the place....

It is also true that if you aren't likely to pass the boards then they don't want you to take them. Trust me you don't want to take them either if thats the case...

I can't speak on behalf of another person and their experience but.... based on my experience if you work hard it really isn't that difficult. I struggled in college and finished my basic sciences with a 90% average. Lets be real though. If you invite 700 people into med school that arguably aren't qualified .... a high % will likely struggle. That is to be expected and should not be shocking.

I guess the most important question you can ask yourself before going to one of the big carib schools is to truthfully ask yourself if you are capable of changing your ways.
 
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I don't think it is "risk" as much as competitiveness. SGU and Ross are getting more competitive... Like previously mentioned they aren't making an effort to fail anyone. They want people to succeed and have many resources in place to help students who struggle, but they aren't stupid. They know the statistics and how many people will fail. These are money making machines and if they need more clinical spots there are US hospitals in big cities that are crying for money all over the place....

It is also true that if you aren't likely to pass the boards then they don't want you to take them. Trust me you don't want to take them either if thats the case...

I can't speak on behalf of another person and their experience but.... based on my experience if you work hard it really isn't that difficult. I struggled in college and finished my basic sciences with a 90% average. Lets be real though. If you invite 700 people into med school that arguably aren't qualified .... a high % will likely struggle. That is to be expected and should not be shocking.

I guess the most important question you can ask yourself before going to one of the big carib schools is to truthfully ask yourself if you are capable of changing your ways.

Fair enough. Thank you for the insight.
 
I don't think it is "risk" as much as competitiveness. SGU and Ross are getting more competitive... Like previously mentioned they aren't making an effort to fail anyone. They want people to succeed and have many resources in place to help students who struggle, but they aren't stupid. They know the statistics and how many people will fail. These are money making machines and if they need more clinical spots there are US hospitals in big cities that are crying for money all over the place....

It is also true that if you aren't likely to pass the boards then they don't want you to take them. Trust me you don't want to take them either if thats the case...

I can't speak on behalf of another person and their experience but.... based on my experience if you work hard it really isn't that difficult. I struggled in college and finished my basic sciences with a 90% average. Lets be real though. If you invite 700 people into med school that arguably aren't qualified .... a high % will likely struggle. That is to be expected and should not be shocking.

I guess the most important question you can ask yourself before going to one of the big carib schools is to truthfully ask yourself if you are capable of changing your ways.

Exactly this. The business model of for-profit schools like this is not difficult to follow. They make money by filling seats. They don't fill seats if nobody Matches. They don't fill seats if everybody fails out in MS1. They don't fill seats if they can't place students in clinical rotations. They know exactly how many students they are likely to lose each term to attrition, exactly how many students they can manage to enroll each term, and what grades/scores students need to be reasonably assured to Match into a preferred specialty. The schools are not looking to "weed out" anybody, they're looking to cast a wide enough net to fill all of their seats, while still maintaining a certain attrition/Match percentage to ensure long-term desirability of their program. As demand for spots increases, they can be more selective in who they take. If demand falls, they will simply lower admissions standards slightly until they again reach that equilibrium. It's not rocket science.
 
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How is this not weeding out? :confused:

Maybe this is a semantic issue, because it seems to be a real confusing point for a lot of people on these forums. For me, "weeding out" in this context would imply that the school is actively trying to remove students from the program, which as I think I clearly stated above, runs directly counter-current to the aims of a for-profit school. Having a minimum standard is not the same as "weeding out" to me, though perhaps I am indeed in the minority on this.

I don't recall hearing of USMD or DO schools "weeding out" students from their program when they fail a class. Why do you think that is? I'm sure it's not because of some double standard whereby US students are judged differently than IMG/FMG students.
 
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Maybe this is a semantic issue, because it seems to be a real confusing point for a lot of people on these forums. For me, "weeding out" in this context would imply that the school is actively trying to remove students from the program, which as I think I clearly stated above, runs directly counter-current to the aims of a for-profit school. Having a minimum standard is not the same as "weeding out" to me, though perhaps I am indeed in the minority on this.
Semantics indeed.
 
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runs directly counter-current to the aims of a for-profit school

I believe you are confused with the idea of "weeding out" because you are failing to understand the workings of a for-profit school and how they actually make money. If you were to do the math, you would see that SGU would still be making a substantial amount of money from all of the students that it does graduate. The people that get "weeded-out" simply make more money for the school in addition to the profits that they already make from people that do graduate and SGU does this because they have earned the right to do it! They've earned the reputation over the years and people now flock to the school for a second chance at earning an MD. You do remember that Grenada operates on the EC right? You think all those buildings on campus were built with a price tag in US dollars? Yet they charge you the room fees in US dollars. Lots of money to be made there alone.

Also when you have "minimum standards" as you suggest and a school accepts students with stats that show that they have not demonstrated the capacity to meet those "minimum standards," then that is either unethical, some scheme disguised to weed them out, or perhaps both.

US attrition is in the single digits. How you are comparing that number to the Caribbean is :shrug:
 
@aformerstudent I don't understand how you are putting the sole blame on SGU.
A student with a 2.7 GPA and a 25 MCAT, do he/she not realize that medicine just isn't for them? Are they that delusional to not understand that medicine is a rigorous program and they do not have the aptitude for it? An average student who attends SGU's 4 year program is at the very least 22 years old. I would say that a 22 year old is mature enough to know and be able to properly gauge his or her potential.

The students who fail to finish the Caribbean programs were never cut out for medicine to begin with. It's not like these students were perfectly capable to-be-doctors and SGU forcefully/unfairly "weeded them out". They provide ample study resources to all students on campus to succeed and do well. Bottom line is that these subpar students should've known that they arent cut out for med and not have embarked on the journey at all.

And what on earth makes a student who barely made 50th percentile on the MCAT believe that he/she will not only ace the USMLE but also score better on it than USMD students (it is fairly well known that for IMG's to get a particular residency spot, they need to score higher than USMDs applying for the same spots).
 
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Are you a Caribbean medical student? If you are not, you should not be responding to my posts or anyone who is on or going down this route as you are not being of any help. The post you so kindly quoted is referring to NBME comp exam scores that most every Carib student takes at the end of basic sciences which are scaled scores.
Yes, I'm a Ross grad who actually finished school, went through the match, and am now in residency. That's compared to you, who apparently went to a non-big 4 school for some short amount of time, either failed or dropped out, and now you spend your time posting on SDN as an "expert" on Caribbean medical education to "help" other people.

So I'm sure one of us is qualified to talk about these topics, I'll let others decide who that is...
 
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Yes, I'm a Ross grad who actually finished school, went through the match, and am now in residency. That's compared to you, who apparently went to a non-big 4 school for some short amount of time, either failed or dropped out, and now you spend your time posting on SDN as an "expert" on Caribbean medical education to "help" other people.

So I'm sure one of us is qualified to talk about these topics, I'll let others decide who that is...

After this post, I'm going to put you on ignore because I can sense a very confrontational and arrogant approach in ALL of your posts which I find concerning and even more disturbing if you are actually a resident who has a responsibility to teach others. And you certainly aren't doing your part to represent Ross the way I think they'd want an alumnus to.

I think in my first post I had said I dropped out. So get that straight. You don't know me.

Unless you really do live in a cave, you do realize that an IMG is an IMG right? Big 4 or not, there are people even from MUA that are smarter than you in better residencies than you...who DO NOT have time to post on SDN because they are busy actually saving lives. So think about that and try and humble yourself if you think for a second that you are somehow better than someone because you graduated and someone else struggled. Like I said before, MUA, a tiny school, has a guy in surgery at Hopkins. Why don't you go up to that guy and say "Hey look at me! I'm from Big 4 Ross!!"

My posts, if you read them slowly and with your finger going over each word, have been focused solely on the basic sciences component of Caribbean medical education so I think I am more than qualified to talk about that. Whether I completed the program or not is honestly irrelevant as you so keenly pointed out. You made it out? Great, good for you :claps:but again, stay humble and realize that there are people all over the islands right now signing drop slips and withdrawal forms who are not going to reach that point. I think they deserve to know how things work down there. If I can do my part to help them see what I saw, then I will. If you don't like it, look the other way.

To be quite honest with you, I don't know what your argument is. When Caribbean attrition falls into the single digits then maybe people will take you seriously and call me crazy instead. For now, I think it's the other way around.
 
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After this post, I'm going to put you on ignore because I can sense a very confrontational and arrogant approach in ALL of your posts which I find concerning and even more disturbing if you are actually a resident who has a responsibility to teach others. And you certainly aren't doing your part to represent Ross the way I think they'd want an alumnus too. Did you ever read that article about the Ross student who was booted from the clinical program in Florida because he was deemed incompetent? Message me, I'll forward the article to you if you wish...it's great reading.

I think in my first post I had said I dropped out. So get that straight. You don't know me.

Unless you really do live in a cave, you do realize that an IMG is an IMG right? Big 4 or not, there are people even from MUA that are smarter than you in better residencies than you...who DO NOT have time to post on SDN because they are busy actually saving lives. So think about that and try and humble yourself if you think for a second that you are somehow better than someone. Like I said before, MUA, a tiny school, has a guy in surgery at Hopkins. Why don't you go up to that guy and say "Hey look at me! I'm from Big 4 Ross!!"

My posts, if you read them slowly and with your finger going over each word, have been focused solely on the basic sciences component of Caribbean medical education so I think I am more than qualified to talk about that. Whether I completed the program or not is honestly irrelevant. You made it out? Great, good for you :claps:but again, stay humble and realize that there are people all over the islands right now signing drop slips and withdrawal forms who are not going to reach that point. I think they deserve to know how things work down there. If I can do my part to help them see what I saw, then I will. If you don't like it, look the other way. Besides, if you're off the island, why are you lurking on the Caribbean forum anyway?

To be quite honest with you, I don't know what your argument is. When Caribbean attrition falls into the single digits then maybe people will take you seriously and call me crazy instead. For now, I think it's the other way around.

Well, Argus is a doctor. So, I'll take them seriously lol
 
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@aformerstudent I don't understand how you are putting the sole blame on SGU.
A student with a 2.7 GPA and a 25 MCAT, do he/she not realize that medicine just isn't for them? Are they that delusional to not understand that medicine is a rigorous program and they do not have the aptitude for it? An average student who attends SGU's 4 year program is at the very least 22 years old. I would say that a 22 year old is mature enough to know and be able to properly gauge his or her potential.

The students who fail to finish the Caribbean programs were never cut out for medicine to begin with. It's not like these students were perfectly capable to-be-doctors and SGU forcefully/unfairly "weeded them out". They provide ample study resources to all students on campus to succeed and do well. Bottom line is that these subpar students should've known that they arent cut out for med and not have embarked on the journey at all.

And what on earth makes a student who barely made 50th percentile on the MCAT believe that he/she will not only ace the USMLE but also score better on it than USMD students (it is fairly well known that for IMG's to get a particular residency spot, they need to score higher than USMDs applying for the same spots).

When you get to medical school you will understand this concept in practice. SGU or any school is not targeting certain people. There are people with even low incoming stats that end up making it off the island and matching. What a lot of people argue with regards to attrition is that MOST people with a 2.7 and 25 will have a hard time making it out of an accelerated Caribbean program. Some will make the changes to succeed; most will not be able to. As a result, they don't even make it to STEP. Setting the admissions criteria that low is unethical. If a US program did the same thing, the school would get shut down. So if the Caribbean programs are continuing to do it, then it can be inferred that they are indeed weeding students out. My argument has been whether or not taking that risk is worth it for you to apply. The Caribbean is not for every US reject, it's for a very specific student who knows exactly what they are doing.

There are some people on this forum that can't seem to wrap their head around that idea.
 
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When you get to medical school you will understand this concept in practice. SGU or any school is not targeting certain people. There are people with even low incoming stats that end up making it off the island and matching. What a lot of people argue with regards to attrition is that MOST people with a 2.7 and 25 will have a hard time making it out of an accelerated Caribbean program. Some will make the changes to succeed; most will not be able to. As a result, they don't even make it to STEP. Setting the admissions criteria that low is unethical. If a US program did the same thing, the school would get shut down. So if the Caribbean programs are continuing to do it, then it can be inferred that they are indeed weeding students out. My argument has been whether or not taking that risk is worth it for you to apply. The Caribbean is not for every US reject, it's for a very specific student who knows exactly what they are doing.

There are some people on this forum that can't seem to wrap their head around that idea.
Sadly Caribbean schools don't give a **** about their students. Why would they accept a student when they know the student will fail out all in the name of making profit? US schools accept qualified students who actually graduate. I went to SGU and withdrew. If some idiot actually thinks am not cut for medical school or I don't qualify to be a doctor then they will become my laughing stock. Caribbean schools are simply not worth it and with US school expansions its only going to get worse. At SGU, I saw people who worked hard, smart and still couldn't make it but they would have made it for sure in an American school. SCREW Caribbean schools and I hope they all get **** down real soon.
 
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Sadly Caribbean schools don't give a **** about their students. Why would they accept a student when they know the student will fail out all in the name of making profit? US schools accept qualified students who actually graduate. I went to SGU and withdrew. If some idiot actually thinks am not cut for medical school or I don't qualify to be a doctor then they will become my laughing stock. Caribbean schools are simply not worth it and with US school expansions its only going to get worse. At SGU, I saw people who worked hard, smart and still couldn't make it but they would have made it for sure in an American school. SCREW Caribbean schools and I hope they all get **** down real soon.

I'm sorry to hear that you did not make it at SGU. But now you know how it works down there and that will allow you to calculate your next move. I don't think a school like SGU will be closing it's doors any time soon though. What I do see is SGU continuing to raise their admissions standards and also continuing to raise the bar with minimum passing scores. A lot of Caribbean schools are not worth the risk but the right student can succeed at SGU and possibly Ross and still come out a doctor by taking that route. Is it risky? Absolutely, especially today.
 
But they also don't want people completing their programs that can't pass the boards.

:smack:

They in fact want as many people as possible to pass, but they also want those who pass to be able to actually complete the USMLE.

:shrug: If every student from every Caribbean school passed STEP1 and STEP 2, like you are suggesting Caribbean schools are advocating, there aren't enough residencies for them. Can you say lawsuit?
 
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When you get to medical school you will understand this concept in practice. SGU or any school is not targeting certain people. There are people with even low incoming stats that end up making it off the island and matching. What a lot of people argue with regards to attrition is that MOST people with a 2.7 and 25 will have a hard time making it out of an accelerated Caribbean program. Some will make the changes to succeed; most will not be able to. As a result, they don't even make it to STEP. Setting the admissions criteria that low is unethical. If a US program did the same thing, the school would get shut down. So if the Caribbean programs are continuing to do it, then it can be inferred that they are indeed weeding students out. My argument has been whether or not taking that risk is worth it for you to apply. The Caribbean is not for every US reject, it's for a very specific student who knows exactly what they are doing.

There are some people on this forum that can't seem to wrap their head around that idea.

I guess I see what you're trying to say. Idk, i can excuse low GPAs but a low MCAT score, I still feel, should tell the student that med ain't for them. Add to the fact that it is also in the Caribbean..a new country, stigmatized etc..
But I can see how some people might feel cheated or taken for a ride. They shouldn't have been accepted in the first place or their money for first semester should be refunded..
I'm sorry for your experience.
 
I believe you are confused with the idea of "weeding out" because you are failing to understand the workings of a for-profit school and how they actually make money. If you were to do the math, you would see that SGU would still be making a substantial amount of money from all of the students that it does graduate. The people that get "weeded-out" simply make more money for the school in addition to the profits that they already make
from people that do graduate and SGU does this because they have earned the right to do it!

You have no idea what you're talking about. Explain to me clearly how a student leaving the program makes MORE money for SGU than a student that stays in for 4+ years.

They've earned the reputation over the years and people now flock to the school for a second chance at earning an MD. You do remember that Grenada operates on the EC right? You think all those buildings on campus were built with a price tag in US dollars? Yet they charge you the room fees in US dollars. Lots of money to be made there alone.

Would it make you feel better if they charged it in EC? I can't fathom the point you're trying to make here. Yes, it's a very expensive school. Yes, I'm sure construction and labor costs are significantly cheaper in Grenada than they are in the US. What the hell is your point? The amount of money that SGU makes off of room and board is quite a small portion of the overall tuition.

Also when you have "minimum standards" as you suggest and a school accepts students with stats that show that they have not demonstrated the capacity to meet those "minimum standards," then that is either unethical, some scheme disguised to weed them out, or perhaps both.

No it's not, that's a completely false dichotomy. Cutting students from the program because they fail to meet a minimum standard is neither unethical nor a scheme to weed out students. They are not actively trying to remove students from the program, they are trying to preserve credentialing standards and their passing Step/Match rates. Students are aware of those minimum standards well before they ever set foot on the island, and the school gives students MULTIPLE opportunities to correct deficiencies before they will fail them out entirely. Those opportunities, by the way, make the school a ton of money on their own. Deceling a class makes the school a proportionally larger profit because they're expending significantly fewer resources on a student and charging them a hefty fee for the chance to redo part of a class.

US attrition is in the single digits. How you are comparing that number to the Caribbean is :shrug:

Certainly never did that, you're just making up straw-mans at this point.
 
It's probably the alcohol talking, but myself and 840+ other SGU MS4's survived the "weeding out" process and matched into US residencies this year, so the school much be doing something right. Sorry for those that couldn't make it, but it's definitely not impossible. Dreams do come true!
 
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After this post, I'm going to put you on ignore because I can sense a very confrontational and arrogant approach in ALL of your posts which I find concerning and even more disturbing if you are actually a resident who has a responsibility to teach others. And you certainly aren't doing your part to represent Ross the way I think they'd want an alumnus to.

I think in my first post I had said I dropped out. So get that straight. You don't know me.

Unless you really do live in a cave, you do realize that an IMG is an IMG right? Big 4 or not, there are people even from MUA that are smarter than you in better residencies than you...who DO NOT have time to post on SDN because they are busy actually saving lives. So think about that and try and humble yourself if you think for a second that you are somehow better than someone because you graduated and someone else struggled. Like I said before, MUA, a tiny school, has a guy in surgery at Hopkins. Why don't you go up to that guy and say "Hey look at me! I'm from Big 4 Ross!!"

My posts, if you read them slowly and with your finger going over each word, have been focused solely on the basic sciences component of Caribbean medical education so I think I am more than qualified to talk about that. Whether I completed the program or not is honestly irrelevant as you so keenly pointed out. You made it out? Great, good for you :claps:but again, stay humble and realize that there are people all over the islands right now signing drop slips and withdrawal forms who are not going to reach that point. I think they deserve to know how things work down there. If I can do my part to help them see what I saw, then I will. If you don't like it, look the other way.

To be quite honest with you, I don't know what your argument is. When Caribbean attrition falls into the single digits then maybe people will take you seriously and call me crazy instead. For now, I think it's the other way around.
I won't really comment on this ridiculous diatribe other than to say I was in no way saying I'm smarter or more qualified than every MUA grad. I was saying I'm more qualified than you specifically, who is neither an MUA student or graduate. You aren't thoughtful enough to realize that since you didn't actually complete the process of medical school, maybe your declarations aren't as informed or knowledgable as you think they are.
:shrug: If every student from every Caribbean school passed STEP1 and STEP 2, like you are suggesting Caribbean schools are advocating, there aren't enough residencies for them. Can you say lawsuit?
First off, that's just factually incorrect. >3500 foreign-IMGs continue to match every year (>3800 in 2017 actually). All the data shows that other than the small percentage of superstar foreign-IMG applicants from top universities abroad, US-IMGs are favored over foreign-IMGs by residency programs. Unless you are going to claim that >3500 people fail out of Caribbean schools every year, then your argument is nonsense.

And what exactly would a lawsuit look like. No Caribbean school that I'm aware of guarantees graduates a residency spot (Ross surely didn't when I enrolled). In fact, Ross actually puts on their website that only 91% of grads matched into residency within 2 years of graduating. So again, another super well thought out point on your part...
 
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It's probably the alcohol talking, but myself and 840+ other SGU MS4's survived the "weeding out" process and matched into US residencies this year, so the school much be doing something right. Sorry for those that couldn't make it, but it's definitely not impossible. Dreams do come true!

It's the alcohol. But congratulations and best of luck to you as you start your residency. Whether it's SGU or any other Caribbean school, I do have a lot of respect for anyone that makes it through that process and succeeds.
 
You have no idea what you're talking about. Explain to me clearly how a student leaving the program makes MORE money for SGU than a student that stays in for 4+ years. Read what I said again. I said the students that are weeded out make money in ADDITION to the students that SGU feels will make it through the program. That is not suggesting that the students that don't make it make MORE money than students who last the four years.




Would it make you feel better if they charged it in EC? I can't fathom the point you're trying to make here. Yes, it's a very expensive school. Yes, I'm sure construction and labor costs are significantly cheaper in Grenada than they are in the US. What the hell is your point? The amount of money that SGU makes off of room and board is quite a small portion of the overall tuition. Again, you either didn't read what I said or you are deliberately trying to cause confusion. SGU is about making money foremost. The school did not come to exist because CM felt that US rejects were wronged by the system. He saw it as an opportunity to make money, a lot of money, off of that. Why do you think we have so many Caribbean schools anyway? I suggested that SGU has ENOUGH money that I felt it was in poor taste to aggressively weed out so many students to make even MORE money on top of the money that they already have. Case in point, they charge you US prices for the crap dorms that you really should only be paying for in EC's because those dorms were built and are maintained with EC dollars. That's one example and there are probably countless others that make you wonder why they are charging you almost $30000 a term for tuition. Quoting from Tameer's blog, SGU has enough money to build the absolute best anatomy lab that can be built. Why then do you have such a crappy lab for that many students? It's business man. SGU is a huge machine designed to make the owners and investors a lot of money and weeding out generates a lot of money IN ADDITION to the considerable amount of money they are making by graduating 800-900 graduates per year. What businessman doesn't want more profits? You have to think about that without bias for it to make sense which I think is your problem. BTW, do you know that SGU took on more students in 2016 than the CAMPUS COULD EVEN ACCOMMODATE! And that's a pretty big campus. They were housing students and busing them in from local hotels. That is...completely F'ed up my friend.



No it's not, that's a completely false dichotomy. Cutting students from the program because they fail to meet a minimum standard is neither unethical nor a scheme to weed out students. They are not actively trying to remove students from the program, they are trying to preserve credentialing standards and their passing Step/Match rates. Students are aware of those minimum standards well before they ever set foot on the island, and the school gives students MULTIPLE opportunities to correct deficiencies before they will fail them out entirely. Those opportunities, by the way, make the school a ton of money on their own. Deceling a class makes the school a proportionally larger profit because they're expending significantly fewer resources on a student and charging them a hefty fee for the chance to redo part of a class. There is so much wrong with this part of your argument that I don't know where to begin. Cutting vs. not actively trying...I don't know how to respond man. I think you realize they weed out but you're just refusing to accept that. As far as being aware of minimum standards. My understanding was that in 2014 the WMPG went from 72 to 75 for students ALREADY enrolled in the program while on the island. There is conflicting information now as to whether that is 78 or 82 but SGU is not sending letters to the homes of prospective or current students notifying them of these drastic changes in advance. Having been through most of basic sciences myself I can honestly say that the average student who comes in with even around a 3.0 and an MCAT below 500 will not survive basic sciences with straight B's. I've pointed it out in previous posts, to survive Caribbean basic sciences, you have to come in a top student; even then there is still adjustment. If SGU is raising their minimum standards, they must raise their admissions standards concurrently and they are not doing that as they are still letting in people with GPA and MCAT scores below their "recommended" numbers. How you can't see that as weeding out is beyond me. As far as multiple opportunities, I don't think dismissing someone once they fail a course >4 credits would qualify as "multiple opportunities." Students are allowed to decel but they have to have the train of thought to make that decision. Even then that's already one red flag, one more red flag such as a lower STEP1 score will be enough to deem that student noncompetitive and their whole degree could potentially be a waste should they eventually graduate and not match.



Certainly never did that, you're just making up straw-mans at this point. Well you were saying you have never heard of US MD or DO programs weeding out students so yes you did say that. In your defense, you probably haven't heard of it though because well...they don't. If you get into a US program and you complete the program satisfactorily, I would say you will have no problems with the match anybody who does not match down that route has some major deficiency in their application considering some IMG took their spot. What you are failing to admit is that SGU and every other Caribbean school TAKES ON MORE STUDENTS THAN THEIR PROGRAM CAN HANDLE. And this has to do with the logistics of third year and the reality of matching. Naive students don't think this far ahead and honestly they are only human and I don't blame them. If SGU, lets say, takes on 2000 students for August and January, you will not have a match list with 2000 graduates in four years. It's never going to happen. This is exactly what you are trying to argue by claiming that "it's not the school's fault, it's the student." As the post above this shows, around 800+ people matched in 2017. Assuming that in 2012/2013 SGU was not taking 1000 students per term and a good amount of students even decelled, that still begs to ask the question, why isn't that match list greater than it is? As a fellow Caribbean student and someone who knows a lot more about SGU than you might think, there is a lot of information that you are withholding about how things work down there and I don't respect that.

Now what's the point of all of this? I'm just saying know what you're signing up for when you sign up to go down to the Caribbean. It really is not for everybody. You and a few of your compadres somehow think this is somehow about you. This is for the majority of students who apply to SGU and other Caribbean schools thinking it's a legitimate path to a guaranteed MD. Perhaps for a few but certainly not for everyone.
 
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This year's Match stats mete out everything the argus has said on this and other threads with regards to this specific topic.

-Skip
 
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SGU - Residency Appointment Directory

Looking at the list, the appointments are not too shabby. A bunch of surgery and ob-gyn placements, which are moderately competitive. One guy matched categorical in neurosurgery! I know I'll probably get flamed but I think this shows that the Carib route can work out for the right student.
 
SGU - Residency Appointment Directory

Looking at the list, the appointments are not too shabby. A bunch of surgery and ob-gyn placements, which are moderately competitive. One guy matched categorical in neurosurgery! I know I'll probably get flamed but I think this shows that the Carib route can work out for the right student.

There's one person listed as having matched into my program that didn't actually match there. I'm curious how accurate these lists really are.
 
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There's one person listed as having matched into my program that didn't actually match there. I'm curious how accurate these lists really are.
Geesh dude relax. I doubt they would actually put an inaccurate list
 
There's one person listed as having matched into my program that didn't actually match there. I'm curious how accurate these lists really are.
Which specialty? Would make it more verifiable without blowing your anonymity.
 
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A lot of times these errors are the result of there being multiple community branches of bigger residency programs. The people who end up making these lists usually dont know every program or for example the difference between NYU Lutheran and the main NYU program, so every NYU community program gets listed as NYU. Its something that I have seen happen at American schools, and is bound to happen at a school as big as the caribbean schools.
 
A lot of times these errors are the result of there being multiple community branches of bigger residency programs. The people who end up making these lists usually dont know every program or for example the difference between NYU Lutheran and the main NYU program, so every NYU community program gets listed as NYU. Its something that I have seen happen at American schools, and is bound to happen at a school as big as the caribbean schools.
The NRMP sends the school a match list with the exact name of the program.
 
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SGU publishes the name of the student along with where they matched. Seems unlikely they would maliciously post incorrect information as is being implied by @gyngyn
 
Which specialty? Would make it more verifiable without blowing your anonymity.

I'd prefer not to say, not just to protect my anonymity but the anonymity of the person in question.

A lot of times these errors are the result of there being multiple community branches of bigger residency programs. The people who end up making these lists usually dont know every program or for example the difference between NYU Lutheran and the main NYU program, so every NYU community program gets listed as NYU. Its something that I have seen happen at American schools, and is bound to happen at a school as big as the caribbean schools.

This might explain it. My institution has community branches across all of the specialties that are not necessarily distinguishable unless you put in the city of the residency. I'm not in NY so it's possible that whoever made the list assumed the program that the person matched into was mine even if it might be a community branch program with a similar name but a different city if they don't know the area.
 
Do not underestimate the power of ignorance, or wishful thinking. I see way too many posts in SDN from people contemplating the Carib diploma mills who think they they'll be the ones to hit 250 on Steps.

The DDx for a Caribbean grad is pretty off-putting: bad judgment, bad advice, egotism, gullibility, overbearing parents, inability to delay gratification, IA's, legal problems, weak research skills, high risk behavior. This is not to say that all of them still have the quality that drew them into this situation. There is just no way to know which ones they are.

@aformerstudent I don't understand how you are putting the sole blame on SGU. A student with a 2.7 GPA and a 25 MCAT, do he/she not realize that medicine just isn't for them? Are they that delusional to not understand that medicine is a rigorous program and they do not have the aptitude for it? An average student who attends SGU's 4 year program is at the very least 22 years old. I would say that a 22 year old is mature enough to know and be able to properly gauge his or her potential.

The students who fail to finish the Caribbean programs were never cut out for medicine to begin with. It's not like these students were perfectly capable to-be-doctors and SGU forcefully/unfairly "weeded them out". They provide ample study resources to all students on campus to succeed and do well. Bottom line is that these subpar students should've known that they arent cut out for med and not have embarked on the journey at all.

And what on earth makes a student who barely made 50th percentile on the MCAT believe that he/she will not only ace the USMLE but also score better on it than USMD students (it is fairly well known that for IMG's to get a particular residency spot, they need to score higher than USMDs applying for the same spots).


I know a Lotto winner too. But I wouldn't use that as a strategy to prepare for retirement income.

Cue the Lotto winners to come in sputtering ..."but but, NRMP!"


SGU - Residency Appointment Directory
Looking at the list, the appointments are not too shabby. A bunch of surgery and ob-gyn placements, which are moderately competitive. One guy matched categorical in neurosurgery! I know I'll probably get flamed but I think this shows that the Carib route can work out for the right student.
 
Do not underestimate the power of ignorance, or wishful thinking. I see way too many posts in SDN from people contemplating the Carib diploma mills who think they they'll be the ones to hit 250 on Steps.

The DDx for a Caribbean grad is pretty off-putting: bad judgment, bad advice, egotism, gullibility, overbearing parents, inability to delay gratification, IA's, legal problems, weak research skills, high risk behavior. This is not to say that all of them still have the quality that drew them into this situation. There is just no way to know which ones they are.




I know a Lotto winner too. But I wouldn't use that as a strategy to prepare for retirement income.

Cue the Lotto winners to come in sputtering ..."but but, NRMP!"
To compare matching out of the Caribbean to winning the lotto is not only insulting, but also shows a fundamental lack of basic knowledge about match statistics.

Please scurry back to the pre-osteopathic forum where you're at least somewhat qualified to make proclamations.

Please explain why a non-physician PhD who teaches basic science at an osteopathic medical school would have the experience or expertise to make statements on how Caribbean grads are judged by residency PDs. Time spent trolling SDN doesn't count...
 
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To compare matching out of the Caribbean to winning the lotto is not only insulting, but also shows a fundamental lack of basic knowledge about match statistics.

Please scurry back to the pre-osteopathic forum where you're at least somewhat qualified to make proclamations.

Again, please explain how a non-physician PhD who teaches basic science at an osteopathic medical school has the experience or expertise to make statements on how Caribbean grads are judged by residency PDs. Time spent trolling SDN doesn't count...
Lol you such an idiot. Goro is definitely respected all across this board. I honestly don't believe that you are a resident.
 
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Lol you such an idiot. Goro is definitely respected all across this board. I honestly don't believe that you are a resident.
Speaking of people who have no experience or expertise but still feel for some reason that their comments are necessary...
 
I have no experience? Don't play yourself dude. I was in SGU for a year and I know how ****ty the Caribbean is.
 
I have no experience? Don't play yourself dude. I was in SGU for a year and I know how ****ty the Caribbean is.

What I'm confused about is why is that dude who you are referring to is posting so much stuff in favor of the Caribbean when he already matched and is done with the Caribbean experience? I merely started the thread to warn other PROSPECTIVE students about the risks associated with going down the Caribbean route especially today and this guy keeps making strange posts about how he is the authority on Caribbean matching statistics and how anybody who doesn't make it through the program has no say on the issue. There is zero logic in his argument unless I'm speaking a different language and he's just not getting it. When the statistics show that around 50% of IMG's are matching, who in their right mind would advocate going down that path without at least some caution? That dude seriously scares me. The Caribbean today is not the Caribbean of 10 years ago.

You know and I know what goes on at these schools and it is NOT in favor of the student. Every prospective pre-med going down that route deserves to know that before they make that decision because just like you and I had our difficulties, there will be others to come who fall victim to the trap. This guy is somehow sending the message to those same students that these schools want you to succeed and that you are going to succeed. I'm sure they do want you to succeed but they also could care less if you don't. And the program and recruiting are designed to highlight the latter.

On a side note, I hope you're not giving up on med school. Stay focused, improve your stats, and get it done.
 
I was under the impression that Caribbean schools had limited numbers of openings for clinical rotations, so part of the hustle is to make as much money as possible in the preclinical years (accept everyone) where it's almost unlimited and cheap and then only let the number of people you have rotations for advance (weed out, while also limiting the number of failures and non-matches that make you look bad). Is this not accurate? I'm genuinely asking. This question to answer why a for-profit school would dismiss someone when they make money by having them. I am truly just curious (already a med student in the U.S.) and not trying to argue.
 
I was under the impression that Caribbean schools had limited numbers of openings for clinical rotations, so part of the hustle is to make as much money as possible in the preclinical years (accept everyone) where it's almost unlimited and cheap and then only let the number of people you have rotations for advance (weed out, while also limiting the number of failures and non-matches that make you look bad). Is this not accurate? I'm genuinely asking. This question to answer why a for-profit school would dismiss someone when they make money by having them. I am truly just curious (already a med student in the U.S.) and not trying to argue.

That's accurate I suppose. Do you feel that is fair for the unassuming student?
 
What I'm confused about is why is that dude who you are referring to is posting so much stuff in favor of the Caribbean when he already matched and is done with the Caribbean experience? I merely started the thread to warn other PROSPECTIVE students about the risks associated with going down the Caribbean route especially today and this guy keeps making strange posts about how he is the authority on Caribbean matching statistics and how anybody who doesn't make it through the program has no say on the issue. There is zero logic in his argument unless I'm speaking a different language and he's just not getting it. When the statistics show that around 50% of IMG's are matching, who in their right mind would advocate going down that path without at least some caution? That dude seriously scares me. The Caribbean today is not the Caribbean of 10 years ago.
I'm not saying I'm the absolute authority, I'm saying you guys don't know what you're talking about. I also post so PROSPECTIVE students get actual accurate information to make an informed choice, not the ramblings of disgruntled former students or non-physicians with no relevant experience.

This is exemplified by the fact that you claim only 50% of IMGs are matching and that its much different now than 10 years ago. Much higher than 50% of US-IMGs match overall. The numbers you see in the NRMP reports are counting re-applicants, which by including them with fresh graduates way oversamples the yearly unmatched cohort of applicants and skews the data. And if you actually look at the ACGME data, you'll plainly see that basically the same number of IMGs are matching now than were 10 years ago.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uplo...tional-Medical-Graduates-Revised.PDF-File.pdf
look at the mean time since graduation for unmatched US-IMGs. I'll give you a sneak-peak, they're mostly not fresh graduates. Ross specifically states on their website, if you graduate without any USMLE failures, 99% match within 2 years. Out of all graduates (including those with USMLE failures) 91% will match within 2 years.

http://www.acgme.org/About-Us/Publi...Graduate-Medical-Education-Data-Resource-Book
On page 79 you will see that the number of AMGs (USMD + DO) starting residency each year has increased quite a bit over the past decade, but the number of IMGs has stayed mostly stable. That's because the increase in residency positions on a yearly basis has basically equaled the increase in AMGs.
 
Please note that the argus really does make a good point you can match over 90% of the time from the Caribbean!....if you're willing to wait two years, pray, do SOAP twice, have excellent board scores with a std of +10pts (most specialties require at least that to match as a IMG...something argus ALWAYS fails to mention in his NRMP posts), no problems in your rotations, and basically be a candidate from Harvard but from the Caribbean, and then maybe get the random residency out in Wyoming......but please go for it!

This n=1 has to stop, the Caribbean is risky we all know this, and its unfortunate that people like the argus prop it up to be this magnificent alternative. I give him/her credit they made it through and congrats to that but again I personally wouldn't want to wait 2 years AFTER i graduated to start my residency in something like psych which I have no interest in. Remember Caribbean grads match into their first choice but thats because they have changed their first choice from IM in their home state for example like in Pennsylvania, to IM in Alaska, or psych in Georgia its a victory all around but you are limiting yourself and with all the effort and time put in wouldn't you want to be happy with the outcome. I know being a psych isnt something I want to do....if thats you then you're good to go if not then see what you can do in the US first.
 
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Why would a Caribbean school ever "weed out" students that could otherwise continue on to practice medicine. That's less students, i.e. less money. Caribbean schools make a profit from each individual student, so why on earth would they want to arbitrarily "weed out" more students.

They need to weed out students because their corporate overlords couldn't afford to bribe enough hospitals around the US for MS3 clinical rotation spots... so they only have enough space for like half the MS1 class size.


So the idea is...take as much money as you can from as many people as you can during MS1+MS2, but cut enough of the crappier students so that they can find the better ones clinical spots. They still get the MS1+2 money from the crappier students who could never pass the steps anyway, which is many thousands of dollars.

It's really not that hard to figure out and has been discussed ad nauseam on this forum.
 
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Please note that the argus really does make a good point you can match over 90% of the time from the Caribbean!....if you're willing to wait two years, pray, do SOAP twice, have excellent board scores with a std of +10pts (most specialties require at least that to match as a IMG...something argus ALWAYS fails to mention in his NRMP posts), no problems in your rotations, and basically be a candidate from Harvard but from the Caribbean, and then maybe get the random residency out in Wyoming......but please go for it!

This n=1 has to stop, the Caribbean is risky we all know this, and its unfortunate that people like the argus prop it up to be this magnificent alternative. I give him/her credit they made it through and congrats to that but again I personally wouldn't want to wait 2 years AFTER i graduated to start my residency in something like psych which I have no interest in. Remember Caribbean grads match into their first choice but thats because they have changed their first choice from IM in their home state for example like in Pennsylvania, to IM in Alaska, or psych in Georgia its a victory all around but you are limiting yourself and with all the effort and time put in wouldn't you want to be happy with the outcome. I know being a psych isnt something I want to do....if thats you then you're good to go if not then see what you can do in the US first.
What really needs to stop is people like you posting nonsense. Please go back and find some of my quotes that "prop up" the Caribbean as a "magnificent alternative." Please.

I repeatedly say to exhaust all US options for 2 cycles before considering the Caribbean. I also repeatedly say 25% of people that start fail to graduate. And another 10% that do graduate never match. I also repeatedly say most Caribbean grads are limited to primary care specialties, and you are limited in program tier within specialty. I also say you have to apply very broadly and be willing to go anywhere to match.

And your nonsense about having to have higher board scores to match out of the Caribbean is just ridiculous. There's data available. Matched US-IMGs have lower board scores than matched USMDs in most specialties. That's just a fact. To compete with a USMD at a particular program you have to outscore them, but overall board scores are lower. This is freely available information.

And this n=1 argument is also nonsense. Look at the SGU match list over the past few years. You'll see >350 people yearly from SGU matching into university primary care or non-primary care specialties. Ross is about the same. I don't claim to be a special snowflake, I'm not.

So what am I sugar coating? Please, find some examples where I say things that aren't true.
 
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