What is the best course of action?

[IGotsQuestions]

---

Members do not see this ad.

Ok, I have a few concerns I need input on regarding my undergrad career (and I do mean career, haha), medical school red flag,. and ERAS.

Background: Older nontraditional DO 4th year. I attended undergrad right out of high school. Kicked out after 3 years. Went to another school to help get reinstated early.Then needed to quit. Out for five years working. Return to college again. Take 6 years to get degree..No real job prospects Hop right back in on another degree (nursing for 1 year), then switch to yet another degree(biological chemistry-quit 19 credits shy due to $$ and then matriculate into medical school.

During medical school, some serious medical family issues arise. I'm an only child. I have to go home.I Miss 3 weeks and two classes which I end up remediating. Longstanding issue with much back and forth and outside time and worry over second year. This cuts into board study. I feel pressured to take them anyway as third year is looming. I fail USMLE step 1. Retake and low pass. Low pass on COMLEX step 1 first try. Plan on doing well on USMLE Step 2 to "make up" for Step 1 whoopsie. Very anxious test day, as I feel so much is riding on doing well. End up failing USMLE Step 2 Yikes. Awaiting COMLEX Step 2. Currently studying for USMLE Step 2 retake.No problems 3rd year, and 5 pass with honors. Applying to noncompetitive specialty, which almost has to be MD, to be back near family.

Questions: Do I put all that undergrad mess on ERAS? Do I need to list the actual years? Do I have to address it in my PS? I'm already addressing the family remediation and board scores.

I know the above history makes me look like an idiot, but there were reasons( which no longer exist). I'd like to leave out as much as possible, for to explain would be very involved and longwinded, and I figure if it comes up, I can just address it at interviews. If I get any. ;P

Thanks!

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

.

 

[notdeadyet]

Questions: Do I put all that undergrad mess on ERAS? Do I need to list the actual years? Do I have to address it in my PS? I'm already addressing the family remediation and board scores.

I think non-trads should usually account for their years after undergrad in their personal statement, but with your failed Step 1 and 2's, I think your background story might actually add to folks' concerns. I wouldn't bother, but prepared to explain it in interviews if you're asked.

Applying to noncompetitive specialty, which almost has to be MD, to be back near family.

The noncompetitive specialty is good, but I think you're going to find that the biggest obstacle will be restricting yourself geographically. The biggest reason for folks with "checkered" applications not matching is not applying broadly enough. I'd bend over backwards to do anything I could to eek out as many programs as possible.

Best of luck in your application!

 

[IGotsQuestions]

Doctor4Life: I'm interested in what input you have, positive or not.

Notdeadyet: Thanks for the feedback. I guess what I am really asking is should I put my undergraduate history prior to that which led to an actual degree, or can I omit it; In short are you required to list all educational experience?

Trust me: medical school was supposed to be an unblemished beacon of academic success, accolades and all that stuff. I was going to "prove myself," especially considering my early (and lengthy) academic floundering, but things happen. But I can at least say that I am keen on perseverance. 😉

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Trust me, there's plenty of things I'd do over again - especially the 1st year of med school. However, you cant change things now.

Anyways, I was going to comment on how your steps 1 and 2 failures were going to look when applying for the allopathic match. I would say that it may be best to apply for the osteopathic match and roll with that - audition at programs of interest - you may have a better shot there. I understand you want to do something non-competitive, but am not sure if it's b/c you think your failures wont allow you to do anything else or if you're genuinely interested in one of those non-competitive fields. I know someone pursuing a non-primary care specialty with less than ideal scores and has an interview (osteopathic program) because that individual worked hard on the away rotation there. You have passed COMLEX on the first shot it seems, so at least the osteopathic match may be an option for you.

 

[IGotsQuestions]

Trust me, there's plenty of things I'd do over again - especially the 1st year of med school. However, you cant change things now.

Anyways, I was going to comment on how your steps 1 and 2 failures were going to look when applying for the allopathic match. I would say that it may be best to apply for the osteopathic match and roll with that - audition at programs of interest - you may have a better shot there. I understand you want to do something non-competitive, but am not sure if it's b/c you think your failures wont allow you to do anything else or if you're genuinely interested in one of those non-competitive fields. I know someone pursuing a non-primary care specialty with less than ideal scores and has an interview (osteopathic program) because that individual worked hard on the away rotation there. You have passed COMLEX on the first shot it seems, so at least the osteopathic match may be an option for you.

Thanks for the response.

Step 1 failure is linked to the family stuff, so I think I have that "covered." Step 2 was an unexpected surprise. I was freakin' super nervous, no sleep, etc: the usual excuses.

I'm already booked for away rotations all at "name" MD places, so I'm just gonna roll with that. Yeah, I'm actually interested in the specialty I am applying to; it has nothing to do with grades. And its not PC. (BTW my overall preclinical GPA is 82.4 which could be worse considering) I can't imagine that I am the first person to fail both steps.

I am also of course applying DO, but only until I "test the waters" in MD land. There are a few programs I would consider.

I'm going totry to not let my life be ruined because of extremely bad luck (and probably more than a bit of poor planning, I admit.)

 

[NPEMTIV]

Ok, I have a few concerns I need input on regarding my undergrad career (and I do mean career, haha), medical school red flag,. and ERAS.

Background: Older nontraditional DO 4th year. I attended undergrad right out of high school. Kicked out after 3 years. Went to another school to help get reinstated early.Then needed to quit. Out for five years working. Return to college again. Take 6 years to get degree..No real job prospects Hop right back in on another degree (nursing for 1 year), then switch to yet another degree(biological chemistry-quit 19 credits shy due to $$ and then matriculate into medical school.

During medical school, some serious medical family issues arise. I'm an only child. I have to go home.I Miss 3 weeks and two classes which I end up remediating. Longstanding issue with much back and forth and outside time and worry over second year. This cuts into board study. I feel pressured to take them anyway as third year is looming. I fail USMLE step 1. Retake and low pass. Low pass on COMLEX step 1 first try. Plan on doing well on USMLE Step 2 to "make up" for Step 1 whoopsie. Very anxious test day, as I feel so much is riding on doing well. End up failing USMLE Step 2 Yikes. Awaiting COMLEX Step 2. Currently studying for USMLE Step 2 retake.No problems 3rd year, and 5 pass with honors. Applying to noncompetitive specialty, which almost has to be MD, to be back near family.

Questions: Do I put all that undergrad mess on ERAS? Do I need to list the actual years? Do I have to address it in my PS? I'm already addressing the family remediation and board scores.

I know the above history makes me look like an idiot, but there were reasons( which no longer exist). I'd like to leave out as much as possible, for to explain would be very involved and longwinded, and I figure if it comes up, I can just address it at interviews. If I get any. ;P

Thanks!

I think you need to account for all gaps in your educational training; however, undergrad gaps aren't as important (in my understanding) so if you had a job during your gaps I think that will be fine.

The biggest thing is even in several of the non-competative programs (IM) I'm personally applying to they specifically state that successful applicants will have passed both steps on first attempt. That's obviously not always the case, but with two fails on the USMLE I think that would start to become a big issue. Stating that you had numerous issues when taking these exams is similar to the arguments pre-meds make regarding MCAT and undergrad gpa, everyone has a reason. I wouldn't necessarily focus on being nervous or pressured as everyone is in the same boat regarding that. Focusing on excuses as why you didn't do well can do more harm than good. Instead, while acknowledging the problems I would place the focus more on what your strengths are and how you've overcome the failed steps. I would also strongly consider investing heavily in the osteopathic match. I don't mean to seem like I'm being negative towards your chances in ACGME, but outside of some community IM and FP programs two fails will be hard to overcome. Not that I wouldn't recommend pursuing ACGME, but I would also focus on ACGOME until you feel very confident you have a chance.

Just my humble opinion. I hope it works out well.

 

[notdeadyet]

Notdeadyet: Thanks for the feedback. I guess what I am really asking is should I put my undergraduate history prior to that which led to an actual degree, or can I omit it; In short are you required to list all educational experience?

You're required to list all education experience in ERAS. You're not required to address it in your personal statement.

What I meant is that in your case, I'd probably not address it in your personal statement. One failed Step is a red flag on an app. Two red flags really gives pause. Why also draw attention to other past educational troubles if you don't have to?

 

[IGotsQuestions]

Honestly, I could care less about all the college prior to the time of attendance resulting in graduation and even failing the steps in the grand scheme of things. Step 1 I took even though I wasn't prepared because I felt I wouldn't be able to prepare further because third year was about to start and I didn't want to pay another $500.

Step 2 I think I had a panic attack it was that bad. I HATE making excuses, but it is what it is, and I will keep on moving forward. There are zero DO programs in the specialty i am pusuing in the area where I am living now, which I where I intend to remain due to family, friends and it's where my soon-to-be wife wants to live as well. I am also going to apply to another specialty as backup that has both MD and DO programs in the area. However, I do feel somewhat confident that there is some hope to still pull this off regardless. (In other words: I'm in denial)

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

The last thing a PD wants to hear is that you're not a good test-taker. Panic attacks are lame excuses. Whatever, good luck.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

I think you need to account for all gaps in your educational training; however, undergrad gaps aren't as important (in my understanding) so if you had a job during your gaps I think that will be fine.

The biggest thing is even in several of the non-competative programs (IM) I'm personally applying to they specifically state that successful applicants will have passed both steps on first attempt. That's obviously not always the case, but with two fails on the USMLE I think that would start to become a big issue. Stating that you had numerous issues when taking these exams is similar to the arguments pre-meds make regarding MCAT and undergrad gpa, everyone has a reason. I wouldn't necessarily focus on being nervous or pressured as everyone is in the same boat regarding that. Focusing on excuses as why you didn't do well can do more harm than good. Instead, while acknowledging the problems I would place the focus more on what your strengths are and how you've overcome the failed steps. I would also strongly consider investing heavily in the osteopathic match. I don't mean to seem like I'm being negative towards your chances in ACGME, but outside of some community IM and FP programs two fails will be hard to overcome. Not that I wouldn't recommend pursuing ACGME, but I would also focus on ACGOME until you feel very confident you have a chance.

Just my humble opinion. I hope it works out well.

Did you take both USMLE Steps 1 and 2? Or do these programs also take COMLEX 1 and 2? I don't know much about the IM programs since I did not apply to any ... but maybe he doesn't have to report his USMLE failures and just the COMLEX scores - since there is an actual option to where one technically doesn't have to show that he took the USMLE at all ...

 

[IGotsQuestions]

The last thing a PD wants to hear is that you're not a good test-taker. Panic attacks are lame excuses. Whatever, good luck.

Ok it's lame. I cringe to admit it I don't want to lie and make up whatever a good excuse would be. I'm just going to be upfront and honest and then probably not match, not scramble, and then probably go back for another undergrad degree that I won't finish then finally return to my roots as a close up magician!

 

[gstrub]

1-800-truckmasters

 

[IGotsQuestions]

1-800-truckmasters

Perfecto!😀

 

[a winner is you]

To be perfectly honest, I don't see how you're going to match into a MD program, even if in a non-competitive specialty, as a DO student who failed both step 1 and step 2 on the first try. Sure, you have some extenuating circumstances, but those can only allow programs to forgive so much. But good luck to you.

 

[IGotsQuestions]

To be perfectly honest, I don't see how you're going to match into a MD program, even if in a non-competitive specialty, as a DO student who failed both step 1 and step 2 on the first try. Sure, you have some extenuating circumstances, but those can only allow programs to forgive so much. But good luck to you.

I think I've got a chance at the very least at my away rotations. As long as I pass Step 2 on the retake, that ought to do it. I mean come on. I've read about people taking these things like 4 times and still landing a residency. While they are important, I think there's too much weight placed on them. Passing is passing. Regardless, I'll post my match results or lack thereof in a few months.

 

[Buzz Me]

Any other details you'd like to share? Step 1 score? Initial Step 1 and 2 CK scores? What field are you applying to?

Letters of recommendation?

 

[NPEMTIV]

Did you take both USMLE Steps 1 and 2? Or do these programs also take COMLEX 1 and 2? I don't know much about the IM programs since I did not apply to any ... but maybe he doesn't have to report his USMLE failures and just the COMLEX scores - since there is an actual option to where one technically doesn't have to show that he took the USMLE at all ...

I only took the COMLEX. Most of the programs I applied to specifically stated on their website that they took DOs. That or I noticed they had several DO residents so I assumed they were DO knowledgable. You have to submit your USMLE scores anytime you apply to ACGME programs, regardless of specialty so he would have to release it.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Good to know.

I was under the assumption, after seeing ERAS, that if you did not put in your NBME ID # that there was no way to assume one took the USMLE. Good luck with the residency interview process.

OP, good luck, you've received numerous advice suggesting similar things - it's up to you to take it or leave it. I'm done reading this thread.

 

[DartosDO]

Good to know.

I was under the assumption, after seeing ERAS, that if you did not put in your NBME ID # that there was no way to assume one took the USMLE. Good luck with the residency interview process.

OP, good luck, you've received numerous advice suggesting similar things - it's up to you to take it or leave it. I'm done reading this thread.

If you are applying to MD schools, you are REQUIRED to submit your USMLE scores, but from what I understand, if you apply DO only, you don't have to. Be careful with what you to as to not get in trouble later. I can second the first time pass on MD (OBGYN) residencies too - do your research so you don't waste money!

 

[IGotsQuestions]

If you are applying to MD schools, you are REQUIRED to submit your USMLE scores, but from what I understand, if you apply DO only, you don't have to. Be careful with what you to as to not get in trouble later. I can second the first time pass on MD (OBGYN) residencies too - do your research so you don't waste money!

I don't understand the following: "I can second the first time pass on MD (OBGYN) residencies too - do your research so you don't waste money!"

DR4life ok cool, and thanks

Overall, this one particular aspect of my life and the approaching discernment of it's outcome has grown wearisome; so I am no longer gonna sweat it.

 

[IGotsQuestions]

I wanted to ask how to best handle the timing of the release of ERAS application? Should I send it in before I get back my Step 2 results, which will be who-knows-when, (guessing late October early Nov) or should I wait until the exam is graded so I can at least have a (hopefully) passing score for them to admire in all its glory?

Basically, which is better:

1) Send ERAS in NOW (its finished) but no passing Step 2, just the failure.

2) Hold off on ERAS until I receive my score. Looks like late Oct Nov release

Ye, verily I realize this is most likely either way in sum an exercise in futility, but even strictly as an exercise in logic, one of these choices might be better than the other.

 

[notdeadyet]

1) Send ERAS in NOW (its finished) but no passing Step 2, just the failure.

2) Hold off on ERAS until I receive my score. Looks like late Oct Nov release

Personally, I'd go with option 1.

At the end of the day, schools will look at your history of failures on the Step 1 and Step 2 and decide whether or not to interview you based on that. A couple might give you a shot, many will choose not to.

Delaying things until November will potentially shut down options at programs that might otherwise give you a shot but can't now because interviews are hard to come by.

I'd apply. Frankly, I think that most programs that will File 13 your app based on your past test history are the same programs that aren't going to be blown away by proof of a passing Step 2 on retake. The more charitable programs are exactly the ones that might interview you anyway and look at your results by the time you come in.

 

[IGotsQuestions]

Personally, I'd go with option 1.

At the end of the day, schools will look at your history of failures on the Step 1 and Step 2 and decide whether or not to interview you based on that. A couple might give you a shot, many will choose not to.

Delaying things until November will potentially shut down options at programs that might otherwise give you a shot but can't now because interviews are hard to come by.

I'd apply. Frankly, I think that most programs that will File 13 your app based on your past test history are the same programs that aren't going to be blown away by proof of a passing Step 2 on retake. The more charitable programs are exactly the ones that might interview you anyway and look at your results by the time you come in.

Thank you for some great advice and an outside perspective. I like your insights.

 

[peppy]

There are zero DO programs in the specialty i am pusuing in the area where I am living now, which I where I intend to remain due to family, friends and it's where my soon-to-be wife wants to live as well. I am also going to apply to another specialty as backup that has both MD and DO programs in the area. However, I do feel somewhat confident that there is some hope to still pull this off regardless. (In other words: I'm in denial)

Apply broadly. No matter how good you think your reasons for staying in this location are, APPLY BROADLY. Even if you wind up somewhere that is not your ideal location, at least you'll still have a job (and once residency is over you can live wherever you want).
Going unmatched would leave you with a useless degree (yes, I know it seems like after all the work that an MD/DO should be worth something by itself, but to have any hope of a job you need to finish at least an internship). The match is getting harder every year as the number of graduates increases. Don't try to be too picky about where you live and wind up having to pay your debt on your wife's salary because you were so focused on trying to live in your ideal location..

 

[IGotsQuestions]

Apply broadly. No matter how good you think your reasons for staying in this location are, APPLY BROADLY. Even if you wind up somewhere that is not your ideal location, at least you'll still have a job (and once residency is over you can live wherever you want).
Going unmatched would leave you with a useless degree (yes, I know it seems like after all the work that an MD/DO should be worth something by itself, but to have any hope of a job you need to finish at least an internship). The match is getting harder every year as the number of graduates increases. Don't try to be too picky about where you live and wind up having to pay your debt on your wife's salary because you were so focused on trying to live in your ideal location..

Yes. I have decided to take out a massive loan and apply to every single residency for every possible specialty in the US. Seriously, I am going to apply very broadly, and we are prepared to go wherever I (hopefully!) match. The importance of this location, or rather the true importance is that I want to be close to my divorced, sick, aging parents who have done so much for me I owe it to them to be home to help them out. My Dad is at least married and working, but my mom cannot live independently and is in assisted living. However, I completely realize that you can't always get what you want. I just fervently hope that I at least get what I need.

Ironically, I am not really stressed or anything. Even the worst case scenario won't be so bad, really.

 

[IGotsQuestions]

Ok, so is there anyway when applying to DO residencies for them to NOT see the USMLE stuff? I have a separate PS for DO programs that doesn't address any of the aforementioned issues. Just a nice straight-forward PS. Then I realized that I think all of my exams including USMLE will show on my common application.

So, do I ignore that, or should I address the whole mess in the DO PS also, since it looks like there is no way to prevent them from seeing everything? Which I am certain would raise questions, haha. It makes me uncomfortable to hide anything anyway as it feels dishonest so I don't mind doing that if it is the right thing to do. But I thought I could somehow "legally" present a problem-free app on the DO side of things, and feel a little better about this.

 

[gutonc]

Ok, so is there anyway when applying to DO residencies for them to NOT see the USMLE stuff? I have a separate PS for DO programs that doesn't address any of the aforementioned issues. Just a nice straight-forward PS. Then I realized that I think all of my exams including USMLE will show on my common application.

Your scores don't appear on the CAF, just that you took it. If you don't release your USMLE transcript to the DO programs, they won't see the failures and you'll be "fine" at least in that respect.

 

[IGotsQuestions]

Your scores don't appear on the CAF, just that you took it. If you don't release your USMLE transcript to the DO programs, they won't see the failures and you'll be "fine" at least in that respect.

Thanks. So, programs don't get to see what's under the "View your MyERAS Application"tab (which shows everything), they just see whats under the "View your CV" tab? (just showing exam was taken).

 

[dusselas]

Ok, I have a few concerns I need input on regarding my undergrad career (and I do mean career, haha), medical school red flag,. and ERAS.

Background: Older nontraditional DO 4th year. I attended undergrad right out of high school. Kicked out after 3 years. Went to another school to help get reinstated early.Then needed to quit. Out for five years working. Return to college again. Take 6 years to get degree..No real job prospects Hop right back in on another degree (nursing for 1 year), then switch to yet another degree(biological chemistry-quit 19 credits shy due to $$ and then matriculate into medical school.

You should find out if you need to submit your undergraduate transcripts. If not, you could limit the damage by talking about having some initial difficulty as an undergraduate--not being focused, etc-- and leaving, and then returning with a strong interest in the sciences.