What is the point of D.O. degrees?

Burrell College of Osteopathic Medicine
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officedepot

officedepot

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Seriously I've been wondering why in world there are both MD and DO degrees. If they fulfill the same role in medicine why have two separate degrees?

now I'm sure I'll get flamed for this but honestly the only thing I can think of is that it is just a way for people who cannot get into medical school to still become physicians.

In my opinion the system needs to be changed. I say just get DO's into primary care areas (moreso than they are) and any sort of speciality beyond general family medicine or peds be reserved for MDs. I realize this is essentially the way it is now but it should almost be a rule. Again I just see no real point in having two separate degrees like this. It would be far better to have DOs in a primary care setting than NPs or PAs alone.

edit: just found this wikipedia article-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compar...d_osteopathic_physicians_in_the_United_States
 
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You must be really bored tonight.
 
officedepot said:
Seriously I've been wondering why in world there are both MD and DO degrees. If they fulfill the same role in medicine why have two separate degrees?

now I'm sure I'll get flamed for this but honestly the only thing I can think of is that it is just a way for people who cannot get into medical school to still become physicians.

In my opinion the system needs to be changed. I say just get DO's into primary care areas (moreso than they are) and any sort of speciality beyond general family medicine or peds be reserved for MDs. I realize this is essentially the way it is now but it should almost be a rule. Again I just see no real point in having two separate degrees like this. It would be far better to have DOs in a primary care setting than NPs or PAs alone.
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Since they are both doctorates, and yet focus on some different content, why not let both degrees saturate the need for physicians period? Why relegate any degree to certain specialties? Since they can fundamentally practice them same thing in the same way, why restrict at all?
 
Cool-Story-Brah-600x563.jpg
 
officedepot said:
In my opinion the system needs to be changed. I say just get DO's into primary care areas (moreso than they are) and any sort of speciality beyond general family medicine or peds be reserved for MDs. I realize this is essentially the way it is now but it should almost be a rule.
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Yeah. Remind me not to touch that "reserved" drinking fountain if we ever meet.
 
i'm pretty excited for the day you hear about the numerous DO's who kicked your a** on the USMLE. Study hard.
 
officedepot said:
Seriously I've been wondering why in world there are both MD and DO degrees. If they fulfill the same role in medicine why have two separate degrees?

now I'm sure I'll get flamed for this but honestly the only thing I can think of is that it is just a way for people who cannot get into medical school to still become physicians.

In my opinion the system needs to be changed. I say just get DO's into primary care areas (moreso than they are) and any sort of speciality beyond general family medicine or peds be reserved for MDs. I realize this is essentially the way it is now but it should almost be a rule. Again I just see no real point in having two separate degrees like this. It would be far better to have DOs in a primary care setting than NPs or PAs alone.
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Your an idiot.

I'll tell that to my DO interventional cardiologist. Who did all three of his fellows at Mass Gen (cards, inteventional, and heart failure).
 
officedepot said:
Seriously I've been wondering why in world there are both MD and DO degrees. If they fulfill the same role in medicine why have two separate degrees?
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There are plenty of weird historical artifacts that persist past the point that they may or may not make sense anymore. Most DOs seem not to have much interest in OMM, which makes them pretty much the same as MDs. But they're still separate.

When Benjamin Franklin was first figuring out electricity, he understood that there are two opposing types of electrical charge. Not knowing much more about them than that, he called one positive and negative. Turns out the one he called negative turned out to be the electron, which is the one that actually does most of the stuff that results in observable electrical phenomena. In retrospect, it'd have been better for everyone if he had made that the positive one. But he didn't. And there's not much prospect of rolling it all back and switching it around now. We just have to get used to it.
 
phltz said:
When Benjamin Franklin was first figuring out electricity, he understood that there are two opposing types of electrical charge. Not knowing much more about them than that, he called one positive and negative. Turns out the one he called negative turned out to be the electron, which is the one that actually does most of the stuff that results in observable electrical phenomena. In retrospect, it'd have been better for everyone if he had made that the positive one. But he didn't. And there's not much prospect of rolling it all back and switching it around now. We just have to get used to it.
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I loved that you brought up Benjamin Franklin in this discussion. You just don't see that everyday, you know?
 
irJanus said:
i'm pretty excited for the day you hear about the numerous DO's who kicked your a** on the USMLE. Study hard.
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that's not the point. Even MDs who get a 220 still have a 10x better shot than DOs who get a 250. Why is that?

look I know it seems like I'm trolling but I actually do wonder what's the point of the separate programs. As others have said there really isn't much of a difference anymore.

I don't think "making" them do primary care is the answer but I'm sure there are plently of people out there who want to do primary care medicine in both adults and kids and in my opinion this would be a great fit for DOs to fill that void in our health care system. They have trouble matching into US residency programs as it is.

And as to the interventional cards DO, I'm sure the guy is smart but he is older and today the students at DO school are, honestly, not the same calliber students that are at MD school. It's kinda like how going to a carribean school is not the same as going to a US school.
 
officedepot said:
I don't think "making" them do primary care is the answer but I'm sure there are plently of people out there who want to do primary care medicine in both adults and kids and in my opinion this would be a great fit for DOs to fill that void in our health care system. They have trouble matching into US residency programs as it is.
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This doesn't make much sense. The DOs (and MDs) ARE taking the offered residency spots in primary care. The "void" isn't due to the DOs not taking them. If there is a void, it's the result of not enough doctors being trained, period.

The more relevant question is who cares? If a DO wants to do derm or ortho or whatever, more power to him/her. If an MD wants to do primary care, that's great. There are historical reasons (as others have said) for the distinction, but I don't see a compelling issue that needs resolved over it.
 
Wouldn't being a older DO create more obstacles to jump through than a younger one? More allo residencies take DO's then ever before.
 
officedepot said:
that's not the point. Even MDs who get a 220 still have a 10x better shot than DOs who get a 250. Why is that?


And as to the interventional cards DO, I'm sure the guy is smart but he is older and today the students at DO school are, honestly, not the same calliber students that are at MD school.
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this.

you say a DO isn't the same caliber.
You say a DO scoring a 250 to an MD's 220 is irrelevant.

well which is it?
I'll grant you this, some programs will not take a DO. Some programs WILL consider a DO 220 to be less than an MD 220...

but you want to say the student scoring 250 on the same damn test as you is not the same caliber? Isn't that EXACTLY what the USMLE is set to establish? haha... 🙄

not a big deal... those 'DO's' who you view as a lower caliber may well run circles around you in practice, but don't you worry because they're lesser doctors 😉
 
officedepot said:
that's not the point. Even MDs who get a 220 still have a 10x better shot than DOs who get a 250. Why is that?

look I know it seems like I'm trolling but I actually do wonder what's the point of the separate programs. As others have said there really isn't much of a difference anymore.

I don't think "making" them do primary care is the answer but I'm sure there are plently of people out there who want to do primary care medicine in both adults and kids and in my opinion this would be a great fit for DOs to fill that void in our health care system. They have trouble matching into US residency programs as it is.

And as to the interventional cards DO, I'm sure the guy is smart but he is older and today the students at DO school are, honestly, not the same calliber students that are at MD school. It's kinda like how going to a carribean school is not the same as going to a US school.
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its actually not kinda like that at all.......and as others have said...you're an idiot.

officedepot said:
any sort of speciality beyond general family medicine or peds be reserved for MDs. I realize this is essentially the way it is now but it should almost be a rule.
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wtf? That is not the way it is at all. Again let me reiterate...you're an idiot.
 
D elegans said:
The more relevant question is who cares? If a DO wants to do derm or ortho or whatever, more power to him/her. If an MD wants to do primary care, that's great. There are historical reasons (as others have said) for the distinction, but I don't see a compelling issue that needs resolved over it.
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well my point is why continue to have the distinction if there really isn't one anymore? Students applying to osteopathic schools today, from my experience, do so because they cannot get into an allopathic school for one reason or another...
 
You really want to know what the difference between MD and DO is?Check out the MCAT scores and GPAs of DO students and allopathic students. Check out the USMLE pass rates.

BTW, this doesn't mean that some guy who slacked in premed years and ended up in DO school can't turn it on later and become a medical superstar.
 
officedepot said:
well my point is why continue to have the distinction if there really isn't one anymore? Students applying to osteopathic schools today, from my experience, do so because they cannot get into an allopathic school for one reason or another...
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what 'experience' are you talking about? as an admissions coordinator for a big name school? as a medical school admissions counselor?
besides, what you're talking about it a different discussion entirely (merits of having two different yet equal degrees)... you started this thread as a means to devalue a degree, not ask "why the difference"
 
officedepot said:
well my point is why continue to have the distinction if there really isn't one anymore? Students applying to osteopathic schools today, from my experience, do so because they cannot get into an allopathic school for one reason or another...
Click to expand...


Your question and your supporting sentence have nothing to do with each other. Keep it up stud.
 
irJanus said:
but you want to say the student scoring 250 on the same damn test as you is not the same caliber? Isn't that EXACTLY what the USMLE is set to establish? haha... 🙄

not a big deal... those 'DO's' who you view as a lower caliber may well run circles around you in practice, but don't you worry because they're lesser doctors 😉
Click to expand...

eh the USMLE isn't the end all when it comes to the caliber of a student.

And I'm sure there are tons of capable DOs and many who get into residencies who go on to become awesome physicians. however if you've ever worked with one you'll see the difference. It's hard to describe but MD students are just better trained overall (before residency) and have a more inate sense of critical thinking ability. If those DO students are so good why do they not go to an allopathic school??


and please enough with the flaming. thanks.
 
RySerr21 said:
Your question and your supporting sentence have nothing to do with each other. Keep it up stud.
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you clearly cannot understand what I was trying to say...

1. if MD and DO do the same thing and go to the same residencies why have two separate degrees.

2. people who go to osteopathic schools usually go there because they cannot get into an allopathic school... Thus there is a difference in the caliber of students at each school.
 
lol you're right, it sure isn't the end-all/be-all, but residency programs sure do seem to value it as a means to weed people out. As for "you should work with one"... I've worked with several. They're every bit as capable and an MD, namely because they're the same thing... a physician.

I'm not flaming, I'm pointing out how ridiculous you are being. I give you your own quotes pointing it out, but your response is to 'stop flaming'. Maybe you should think before you post.
 
officedepot said:
eh the USMLE isn't the end all when it comes to the caliber of a student.

And I'm sure there are tons of capable DOs and many who get into residencies who go on to become awesome physicians. however if you've ever worked with one you'll see the difference. It's hard to describe but MD students are just better trained overall (before residency) and have a more inate sense of critical thinking ability. If those DO students are so good why do they not go to an allopathic school??


and please enough with the flaming. thanks.
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believe it or not, some people apply to medical schools irrespective of the degree they will be receiving at the end of the 4 years. They then choose a school based on which one they think they will be happiest at. * Gasp *
 
From the wikipedia article:

Student aptitude indicators
Some authors note the differences in average GPA and MCAT scores of those who matriculate at DO schools versus those who matriculate at MD schools within the United States. In 2010, the average MCAT and GPA for students entering US-based MD programs were 31.1 [29] and 3.67,[30], respectively, and 26.49 and 3.47 for DO matriculants.[31] As many as one out of every three students matriculating at an osteopathic medical school has been rejected by MD programs,[32]however, osteopathic medical schools are more likely to accept non-traditional students,[33][34] who are older, coming to medicine as a second career, non-science majors, etc., which some MD programs would automatically, categorically reject. Osteopathic medical students are required to take Comprehensive Osteopathic Medical Licensure Examination (COMLEX-USA) that is sponsored by the National Board of Osteopathic Medical Examiners (NBOME). This exam is a prerequisite for DO-associated residency programs, which are available in almost every specialty of medicine and surgery. American osteopathic physicians (DO) may also choose to sit for the USMLE [35]if they wish to take an allopathic residency; however, if they have taken COMLEX, it may or may not be needed, depending on the individual institution’s program requirements.[36][37][38] First-time USMLE pass rates for DO vs. MD students are as follows: Step 1: 80% and 92% and Step 2: 90% and 96%, respectively; however, DO graduates have a higher pass rate than their MD counterparts for Step 3: 96% vs. 93%, respectively.[39] Given that DO graduates have performed competitively with their US trained MD counterparts, the trend is now overwhelmingly towards acceptance of COMLEX.[40][41][42]
Residency

Graduates of both osteopathic and MD certified medical schools are eligible to apply to residency programs through the National Resident Matching Program (NRMP). In 2003, 99% of new US MDs and 43% of new US DO's went on to train in ACGME-accredited residency programs.[17]
The American Osteopathic Association accredits osteopathic residency programs. There have been calls to end the remaining barriers between the two types of programs.[44][45][46] Since 1985, a single residency training program can be dual-accredited by both the ACGME and the AOA.[17][47][48]
In 2001, the AOA adopted a provision making it possible for a resident (who is a DO) in any MD program to apply for osteopathic approval of their training.[49] The topic of dual-accreditation is controversial. Opponents claim that by merging osteopathic students into the "MD world", the unique quality of osteopathic philosophy will be lost.[17] Supporters claim the programs are popular because of the higher prestige and higher resident reimbursement salaries associated with MD programs.[50] MDs are generally not permitted to train in osteopathic (AOA-accredited) residencies, though this has become a subject of debate within the osteopathic profession. The American Osteopathic Association has agreed to study the issue of permitting MDs to train in DO (AOA-accredited) residencies.








the entire article has more info and is pretty good.
 
glad you used Wiki as your 'evidence' lol

no worries, I'm not going to change your mind/make you think differently. You are who you are, and you think that you think. Maybe in 10 yrs when you're in practice, you'll work alongside some DOs and you'll find yourself impressed and think back to the days where you were a bit immature and unaware. There's no shame in gaining wisdom with age and reevaluating things you once thought true.

That said, no harm/no foul. I'd rather focus on shelf examinations and step 2.
Woo Sa 👍

edit: a quick clarification for you: the reason '43%' matched ACGME is because 56% chose an AOA program and there was still the 1% unmatched.
 
officedepot said:
In 2003, 99% of new US MDs and 43% of new US DO's went on to train in ACGME-accredited residency programs
Click to expand...

Not all DO's choose to train at ACGME-accredited sites. Shocking, huh? 😱
 
DrDrToBe said:
😱 lower caliber, eh?
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does anyone really even care about step 3? I mean all you gotta do is pass. Whatever.

anyway I actually find it interesting that you guys here who go to allopathic schools don't acknowledge that students at DO schools clearly got lower grades than those at allopathic schools. Also do none of you really think that you will get better training at an allopathic school? If it doesn't matter and they are just as good then why are you paying for allopathic school? Why try and go to highly ranked med schools if where you go makes no difference?

some of you guys make no sense defending this...
 
then why do 7% not pass? it wasn't an assessment of the mean, it was overall pass rate. by your measure, DO is better.

I respect you defending your degree. I just think you're misguided. People here 'defend' DO because they realize that getting into a medical school (DO or MD) is difficult, period, and at the end of the day, you will be shoulder to shoulder with each other in practice, be it FM, EM, IM, you name it. We will both be physicians at the end of 4 yrs.

ps... allopathic schools don't cost more than osteopathic schools lol. if anything, allopathic in-state schools are MUCH cheaper. the cheapest DO school is just shy of 30k/yr.
 
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irJanus said:
I respect you defending your degree. I just think you're misguided. People here 'defend' DO because they realize that getting into a medical school (DO or MD) is difficult, period, and at the end of the day, you will be shoulder to shoulder with each other in practice, be it FM, EM, IM, you name it. We will both be physicians at the end of 4 yrs.
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Great post 👍
 
officedepot said:
anyway I actually find it interesting that you guys here who go to allopathic schools don't acknowledge that students at DO schools clearly got lower grades than those at allopathic schools.
Click to expand...

Since average matriculant MCAT/GPA is so important to you, how do you feel about the students at some US MD schools that have similar, if not lower, average matriculant stats than some DO schools?
 
officedepot said:
does anyone really even care about step 3? I mean all you gotta do is pass. Whatever.

anyway I actually find it interesting that you guys here who go to allopathic schools don't acknowledge that students at DO schools clearly got lower grades than those at allopathic schools. Also do none of you really think that you will get better training at an allopathic school? If it doesn't matter and they are just as good then why are you paying for allopathic school? Why try and go to highly ranked med schools if where you go makes no difference?

some of you guys make no sense defending this...
Click to expand...

Do higher ranked schools produce better physicians? Do the students magically transform that NIH funding into better board scores and clinical knowledge? You do realize that the ranking of medical schools is based on the amount of NIH funding the professors get to do research and has nothing to do with the amazingly awesome students they produce right? A medical education is a medical education that is pretty standard across all schools (MD and DO) so that the students are competent enough to practice the standard of care. The reason I applied to some high ranked schools was simply for the prestige factor or location, which are probably the same reasons why everybody else does. I applied to 17 schools, both md and do, and all the DO schools were not at the bottom of my rank list, one was even in my top 5. People apply to DO schools for a number of reasons and your assertion that people who go there are only MD applicant failures is incredibly ignorant and naive and is most likely the reason why people are "flaming" you for insulting them.
 
I'm pretty sure those DOs should be relegated to lightning bone setting only.
 
Thriller said:
Do higher ranked schools produce better physicians? Do the students magically transform that NIH funding into better board scores and clinical knowledge? You do realize that the ranking of medical schools is based on the amount of NIH funding the professors get to do research and has nothing to do with the amazingly awesome students they produce right? A medical education is a medical education that is pretty standard across all schools (MD and DO) so that the students are competent enough to practice the standard of care. The reason I applied to some high ranked schools was simply for the prestige factor or location, which are probably the same reasons why everybody else does. I applied to 17 schools, both md and do, and all the DO schools were not at the bottom of my rank list, one was even in my top 5. People apply to DO schools for a number of reasons and your assertion that people who go there are only MD applicant failures is incredibly ignorant and naive and is most likely the reason why people are "flaming" you for insulting them.
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👍 THIS.
 
You're the same douchebag that insulted an attending in the other thread.

I wish you'd come rotate at some philly hospitals so I could kick your ass up and down the floors all day long while the UPenn and Jeff kids watch amusingly.
 
officedepot said:
you clearly cannot understand what I was trying to say...

1. if MD and DO do the same thing and go to the same residencies why have two separate degrees.
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People have answered this for you already. Historical differences that are largely gone today, as well as OMM.

Since there's the primary care shortage and all, why not just force MDs into it? There's more of them, after all. They'd fill it more quickly.

Why not make them the same degree? California tried that in the 1960's. If DOs paid a fee, they'd change into MDs. It was mostly an attempt at eliminating competition, which is interesting, considering that the DOs are clearly inferior students. Why would they feel the need to do that?

You've got to be just trying to irritate people, you couldn't possibly think this way...
 
officedepot said:
does anyone really even care about step 3?
Click to expand...

Not too many people really care about Step 3. The only people that care about Step 3 are physicians who want to become licensed and practice medicine. Otherwise, Step 3 is completely irrelevant. Obviously 7% of graduating MDs did not want to obtain a license and practice and that's why they took Step 3 and didn't care to pass it. Obviously.
 
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Shinken said:
Not too many people really care about Step 3. The only people that care about Step 3 are physicians who want to become licensed and practice medicine. Otherwise, Step 3 is completely irrelevant. Obviously 7% of graduating MDs did not want to obtain a license and practice and that's why they took Step 3 and didn't care to pass it. Obviously.
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Obviously lol
 
Rollo said:
You're the same douchebag that insulted an attending in the other thread.

I wish you'd come rotate at some philly hospitals so I could kick your ass up and down the floors all day long while the UPenn and Jeff kids watch amusingly.
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oh sorry I forgot that being listed as an "attending" on the internet automatically means that you deserve respect from those you don't know... A title does not dictate what kind of "respect" a person should receive.



and whatever. I'm not trolling. It was a legitimate question but clearly there are just a bunch of high minded 1st and 2nd year students on this board for the most part. Thanks to those who point out there there really is no need for the two separate degrees.


and I'm sorry if it offends people but DO schools take students on average with significantly lower grades. Those students would not be able to get into allopathic school. That is fact. And I'll be honest I think it makes a difference as grades speak to the type of person one is and the innate ability to solve problems. Personally I would not go to a DO for my primary physician. But that's just me. And yes I do think it makes a huge difference where one goes to medical school. The rank indicates which school has more funding and generally more resources. Those schools are competetive because of more than just rank. They generally offer better training. None of you will see this until you begin working with residents and students from other schools on away rotations. Only then will you notice that the medical school a person goes to very much dictates how that doctor will practice. Whatever I'm done with this thread. Too many naive idiots for me.
 
Try not to get in an accident, because you might be worked on by a DO in the ER who would be happy to save your pathetic ass.
​
 
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