What is Wrong With Aiming High?

[CertifiedGunner]

Hey all, I'm brand new here. Well that's not entirely true... I've been lurking on this website without an account for quite some while now. Normally I have never felt the need to post anything, but recently I've been seeing something that has kind of been rubbing me the wrong way.
I've noticed that whenever a pre-med mentions that they want to become a neurosurgeon or something along the same lines, they are almost immediately shot down by some of the "hot shots" over here. I'd like to know what is the reasoning behind this. If asked, I assume they would defend themselves by saying that they are only trying to save others from future disappointment. When you think about it, it is kind of similar to a gunner pre-med telling their classmate that getting into med school is way too hard, and that they should rather look into podiatry instead. Anyway, that's enough of my rambling. Thoughts?

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[TheBiologist]

I think it's just a matter of statistics; the actual numbers show that the vast vast majority of wide eyed freshman will not become pediatric neurosurgeons (or even get into med school), as unfortunate as that might sound

it's up to the individual student to prove them wrong

 

[sab3156]

I've noticed that whenever a pre-med mentions that they want to become a neurosurgeon or something along the same lines, they are almost immediately shot down by some of the "hot shots" over here.

No, it's just that people should actually figure out what it takes to obtain competitive residencies before coming here and blabbering about it and annoying everyone. Same thing when pre-meds come and ask about their chances of getting into medical school and they don't even have an MCAT score.

This thread sucks, by the way.

 

[Robin-jay]

You can be whatever you want.

 

[efle]

Hey all, I'm brand new here. Well that's not entirely true... I've been lurking on this website without an account for quite some while now. Normally I have never felt the need to post anything, but recently I've been seeing something that has kind of been rubbing me the wrong way.
I've noticed that whenever a pre-med mentions that they want to become a neurosurgeon or something along the same lines, they are almost immediately shot down by some of the "hot shots" over here. I'd like to know what is the reasoning behind this. If asked, I assume they would defend themselves by saying that they are only trying to save others from future disappointment. When you think about it, it is kind of similar to a gunner pre-med telling their classmate that getting into med school is way too hard, and that they should rather look into podiatry instead. Anyway, that's enough of my rambling. Thoughts?

How many of these premeds know what a neurosurgeon's training pathway and life is really like? It's a classic tell that they have no idea what they're talking about and just like the idea of wealth and prestige. The real analogy would be like a freshman in college telling their fellow pre-meds "I decided I'm going to Penn on a full ride" before they even know if medicine is the right choice. If they got told to take it down a level, that would be totally appropriate.

 

[CertifiedGunner]

No, it's just that people should actually figure out what it takes to obtain competitive residencies before coming here and blabbering about it and annoying everyone. Same thing when pre-meds come and ask about their chances of getting into medical school and they don't even have an MCAT score.

This thread sucks, by the way.

First of all, I would like to thank you for your input. Not only because I value everybody's opinion, but also because you are a prime example of what I am talking about. I don't see the correlation between your second point and what I am referring to. Clearly not having a key component to the AMCAS application and then asking someone to determine your competitiveness is an issue. Back to your first point, you are already making the assumption that said people have not already done that. If people did not want to become neurosurgeons because "it's too difficult" we wouldn't have neurosurgeons. I agree with the statement that many with these aspirations will not achieve their goal, but there are still plenty that do, and what good is it to discourage them?

 

[LoveBeingHuman:)]

Because 9/10 times the person who wants to go into neurosurgery is a pompous undergrad freshman who thinks he’ll be on the top of the class just because he was the top in high school and thinks becoming a neurosurgeon will be a walk in the park for him. Not to mention the fact that the only thing he likes about neurosurgery is the fact that it’s the most prestigious medical speciality.

 

[Pagan FutureDoc]

You can be whatever you want.

I’m just gonna be buccaroo banzai

 

[el_duderino]

This thread is going places.

 

[CertifiedGunner]

Once you've been exposed enough to medicine, you'll realize how much you don't know. Your opinions can, and likely will, change completely at some point in medical school. Boasting that you're gunning for neurosurg demonstrates immaturity and lack of comprehension.

I can't tell from this post whether or not you're referring to me or not. If so, I have made no mention of myself gunning for neurosurg. If referring to pre-meds in general, I do agree partially. If you're boasting this early that you are GOING to be a neurosurgeon then yes, that is extremely naive. I however see no harm in saying that you are pursuing a career in neurosurg. Opinions are of course subject to change, but what is the harm in being focused on something that interests you?

 

[JPmoleymole]

It because SDN takes itself way too seriously

Don't sweat the small stuff man

 

[SpoiledMilk]

This is like trial by fire!

Keeping fighting the good fight cuz SDN is what it is...

 

[Robin-jay]

I can't tell from this post whether or not you're referring to me or not. If so, I have made no mention of myself gunning for neurosurg. If referring to pre-meds in general, I do agree partially. If you're boasting this early that you are GOING to be a neurosurgeon then yes, that is extremely naive. I however see no harm in saying that you are pursuing a career in neurosurg. Opinions are of course subject to change, but what is the harm in being focused on something that interests you?

You should be focusing on medicine, not a rigorous specialty, as of right now.

If you can't see yourself in primary care if things don't go perfectly in medical school, then maybe you shouldn't even apply in the first place. This is because "helping people" should be the reason you go into medicine in the first place, not wealth and prestige.

 

[Med Ed]

Hey all, I'm brand new here. Well that's not entirely true... I've been lurking on this website without an account for quite some while now. Normally I have never felt the need to post anything, but recently I've been seeing something that has kind of been rubbing me the wrong way.

Troll.

 

[DrRiker]

I can't tell from this post whether or not you're referring to me or not. If so, I have made no mention of myself gunning for neurosurg. If referring to pre-meds in general, I do agree partially. If you're boasting this early that you are GOING to be a neurosurgeon then yes, that is extremely naive. I however see no harm in saying that you are pursuing a career in neurosurg. Opinions are of course subject to change, but what is the harm in being focused on something that interests you?

Hypothetical. Not aimed at you.

 

[ciestar]

Nothing wrong at all about aiming high, but as with all other things in medical education, but prepared to have a plan B. As pointed out previously, only the very best are able to obtain residency in the most sought after fields. A majority end up in one kind of primary care or another and as an applicant, they must be okay with this possibility.

Hubris among many pre-meds is the exact reason it is discouraged. Working hard isn’t enough. You have to be a rockstar more than just academically.

 

[Saifa]

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

In my school about 50% of premeds get weeded out freshman year, and maybe another 33% during orgo. It's a bit silly to aim high when you haven't got the credentials to prove that you can handle it yet.

 

[Robin-jay]

In my school about 50% of premeds get weeded out freshman year, and maybe another 33% during orgo. It's a bit silly to aim high when you haven't got the credentials to prove that you can handle it yet.

Yea that's still crazy to think about. I would think the MCAT or something more rigorous would do it. General chemistry and orgo. chemistry weeding out pre-meds always seemed weird to me. Things get much harder after that.

 

[LebronManning]

It's because the people who go on to become pediatric neurosurgeons, etc. don't post on here about it as pre meds. They understand that it's way too premature as a pre med to have that kind've career aspiration all figured and planned out. These prodigies tend to be very logical, thus why they succeed in life. They take it one step at a time to the top.

 

[Saifa]

In my school about 50% of premeds get weeded out freshman year, and maybe another 33% during orgo. It's a bit silly to aim high when you haven't got the credentials to prove that you can handle it yet.

I usually tell advisees that they are going to run into people who lead them to blindly believe they will make it or never will, and both of these types are unhelpful. There's a common trend with "I'm fully set on becoming a heart surgeon," "I study biology and I'm going to be a pediatric neurosurgeon," or what have you and never even pitching a medical school application. These people are often egged on by parents or friends and never end up thinking about what you actually have to do to become a doctor. I was the same way with anesthesia.

And FWIW once people are in/applying to medical school they talk freely here about their specialty interests, be it IM or neurosurgery.

 

[ciestar]

Yea that's still crazy to think about. I would think the MCAT or something more rigorous would do it. General chemistry and orgo. chemistry weeding out pre-meds always seemed weird to me. Things get much harder after that.

Not everyone’s forte is chemistry 😛
But you’re not wrong, things absolutely do get harder.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

I can't tell from this post whether or not you're referring to me or not. If so, I have made no mention of myself gunning for neurosurg. If referring to pre-meds in general, I do agree partially. If you're boasting this early that you are GOING to be a neurosurgeon then yes, that is extremely naive. I however see no harm in saying that you are pursuing a career in neurosurg. Opinions are of course subject to change, but what is the harm in being focused on something that interests you?

Because it’s jumping the gun. They went from pre-med to neurosurgeon while skipping the actual “doctor” part. Until you’re in med school, you have no comprehension of what the various specialties are actually like, let alone the most competitive ones. Let me say it again. NO comprehension. That’s why it sounds silly to hear people say it. As if saying “I want to be a doctor” is somehow not good enough—(of course most of them won’t even make that far). It underscores a whole bunch of assumptions about medicine that are frankly idiotic. If they say, “I want to be a doctor,” no one would bat an eye. Gotta walk before you can run, buddy.


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[getdown]

Cause it displays a level of premed arrogance and lack of comprehension. Many of us actually in practice have encountered plenty of people who say this and when pressed further invariably it boils down to "it's cool" or saw it on Gray's Anatomy of some stupid **** like that. The progression is: you can think it as a premed, you can say it as a med student and when you can actually do it as a resident then we'll care otherwise you're just talking out of your ass and anyone who knows better will just laugh at you.

You wanna impress the hot girl at the coffee shop? Go ahead. But don't expect to come to where people actually know what's going on spouting this stuff and not get ridiculed.

 

[tammyp]

Hey all, I'm brand new here. Well that's not entirely true... I've been lurking on this website without an account for quite some while now. Normally I have never felt the need to post anything, but recently I've been seeing something that has kind of been rubbing me the wrong way.
I've noticed that whenever a pre-med mentions that they want to become a neurosurgeon or something along the same lines, they are almost immediately shot down by some of the "hot shots" over here. I'd like to know what is the reasoning behind this. If asked, I assume they would defend themselves by saying that they are only trying to save others from future disappointment. When you think about it, it is kind of similar to a gunner pre-med telling their classmate that getting into med school is way too hard, and that they should rather look into podiatry instead. Anyway, that's enough of my rambling. Thoughts?

A lot of SDN users like to act like they're giving out advice and tough love, which may be true to an extent, but usually its just another case of people using the internet as a chance to be ridiculously rude to others in a way they can never or will never do in person. If thats what you're inspired by and gives you drive, then by all means go for it. Just be open minded and adaptable along the way because you have a long road ahead.

 

[Jdp00921]

I've lurked and posted on this site for some time and I have to say, I don't think these posts are as common as you are making them seem, OP. Although I do agree that sometimes, SDN posts that very likely mean no harm and are just genuine (albeit maybe naïve) questions are met with a bit of harshness, it seems most common when the poster writes with a bit of obvious obnoxiousness. I don't think I've ever read a pre-med post that simply mentioned possibly liking neurosurgery and asking about shadowing/etc. met with too much backlash.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

A lot of SDN users like to act like they're giving out advice and tough love, which may be true to an extent, but usually its just another case of people using the internet as a chance to be ridiculously rude to others in a way they can never or will never do in person. If thats what you're inspired by and gives you drive, then by all means go for it. Just be open minded and adaptable along the way because you have a long road ahead.

Giving someone a dose of reality is not rude inandof itself.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

First of all, I would like to thank you for your input. Not only because I value everybody's opinion, but also because you are a prime example of what I am talking about. I don't see the correlation between your second point and what I am referring to. Clearly not having a key component to the AMCAS application and then asking someone to determine your competitiveness is an issue. Back to your first point, you are already making the assumption that said people have not already done that. If people did not want to become neurosurgeons because "it's too difficult" we wouldn't have neurosurgeons. I agree with the statement that many with these aspirations will not achieve their goal, but there are still plenty that do, and what good is it to discourage them?

And this shows how little you know about the process. There are several key components that give one even a shot at matching neuro that you do in med school. Asking wamc without an MCAT is actually a good analogy since saying you’re going to be a neurosurgeon without a med school acceptance and a step 1 score is equally ridiculous.

 

[onyxbell]

Imagine a cheese connoisseur club with the members enjoying a good Stilton, Roquefort or some other types of exotic variant. They frequently meet and discuss their opinions and ratings and whatnot. Then an upstart shows up and wants to join and aim to be the chairman so the members want to know the new person's credentials. He claims that he loves the Kraft Singles in the lunch sandwich and dabbles in nacho cheese occasionally. Of course it's not going to fly with the club members.

Unless somehow the new person is the son of a farmer from a French countryside whose family tradition is making cheese. Then that's different, and he won't love Kraft Singles and that will reflect from his demeanor. But for the majority of the time, we don't see that.

 

[tammyp]

Giving someone a dose of reality is not rude inandof itself.

You don't need to be rude to give a dose of reality. Everything can be said in a kinder way. But being kind doesn't get you likes on SDN, being rude and sarcastic does.
You can be realistic and honest with people without trying to crush their aspirations and dreams from the jump. It ruins self confidence and its something I wish didn't affect me as much as it did in college. It can really damage performance.

 

[MDPedigree]

I completely agree with OP. I almost failed out of high school and wound up attending a state school near my home that no ones heard about and that everyone who applies to gets in. Before starting college I told people I wanted to go to medical school, and that I was going to do it. Everyone laughed at me, including my own family.

I knew nothing about pre-med, how hard it was, how it worked, how the mcat worked and how hard it was. Fast forward 4 years and I have multiple MD acceptances, some to upper-mid tier schools. When you have a goal and you're hungry for it, no one can stop you, even if you don't know what it takes. Some people are willing to do WHATEVER it takes.

Stay hungry my friends.

 

[dr_kateb]

You don't need to be rude to give a dose of reality. Everything can be said in a kinder way. But being kind doesn't get you likes on SDN, being rude and sarcastic does.
You can be realistic and honest with people without trying to crush their aspirations and dreams from the jump. It ruins self confidence and its something I wish didn't affect me as much as it did in college. It can really damage performance.

If the difference between making it and failing is a few kind words I suggest you don’t try to be a doctor.

 

[dr_kateb]

I can't tell from this post whether or not you're referring to me or not. If so, I have made no mention of myself gunning for neurosurg. If referring to pre-meds in general, I do agree partially. If you're boasting this early that you are GOING to be a neurosurgeon then yes, that is extremely naive. I however see no harm in saying that you are pursuing a career in neurosurg. Opinions are of course subject to change, but what is the harm in being focused on something that interests you?

This is the premed forum where getting into med school is #1. No one cares what your aspirations are for all of the reasons people have given already.

 

[tammyp]

From my position as an advisor, I get comments from both prospective applicants and their parents, that they only want to be a neurosurgeon or plastics or ortho with a degree from Harvard, Hopkins, Standford, etc. If I could physically throw a bucket of ice cold water on them, I would. I always warn them if you are unable to accept that you maybe a family practice doc in the Des Moinies, then you may want to reconsider this path. I have to go thru the entire litany of hurdles that they must face.

1) At any individual school, there are thousands of applications that must be reduced by at least 80% pre-interview to hundreds of interview slots that further get reduced to a few hundred acceptances to finally a hundred or so matriculating students. Students and parents are shocked, shocked I tell you, that little Johnnie or Jane were rejected from the start.

2) Overall, most people who apply do not get accepted; consider yourself lucky to get any acceptance. BTW, I would say about a 1/3 of the people who contact me for advising are reapplicants who are good to great applicants who applied to Harvard, Standford, Mayo, Hopkins and just other top schools and are shocked, shocked I tell you, that they didnt even get an interview.

100% apply
60% get rejected
20% get a single acceptance
20% get multiple acceptance.

3) Many advisees, most in fact, do not have any real idea of how residencies work and are shocked, shocked I tell you, to find out that they cant realistically just go into any specialty they want. When I pull up NRMP data, or program directors survey data, they seem dumbfounded to find that of all the applicants to residencies, only 0.8% get into neurosurgery in 2017.

I want applicants to get into the process with eyes wide open as I have seen the other side of medical school admissions. By that I mean, the bitter 30+ year old who has finally finished residency, has yet to practice an independent day in their life, not any place they expected to be as a bright-eyed and bushy-tailed premed

I understand how it important it is for people to know their odds and I'm thankful that faculty members like yourself are here to remind us of that. And I'm sure that you are absolutely sick of dealing with hundreds of applicant with the same unrealistic aspiration. I'm just coming from the perspective of an applicant whose confidence was almost shattered completely by these statistics and almost changed paths 4 times during undergrad, avoided applying for 2 cycles and almost didn't this cycle out of fear of failure. And I'll be attending med school in August.

I've been told "aim for the moon so you can at least catch some stars". Just make sure you'll still be grateful for the stars.

 

[tammyp]

If the difference between making it and failing is a few kind words I suggest you don’t try to be a doctor.

Cute. As I begin training to become a doctor in August I'll keep in mind that positive reinforcement is almost always more effective than negative reinforcement. And that you truly do not gain anything at all from being rude and condescending to others, peers and patients alike, besides a fake sense of importance.

 

[Med Ed]

I've lurked and posted on this site for some time and I have to say, I don't think these posts are as common as you are making them seem, OP.

I repeat: this is a troll thread.

 

[3toedsloth]

it's always the most arrogant freshman kid who wants to do neurosurgery, so it's fun to make fun of them. They are seeking the respect and prestige associated with their future profession like 15 years before even getting there.

99/100 either drop out of premed, go to the Caribbean, or do go to med school but are not competitive enough to match neurosurg and end up in PM&R or family med. That one guy who makes it can tell us all to **** off, but it's fun to make fun of the rest of them.

"I want to be a pediatric surgical neuro-oncologist." says premed sophomore while holding their D- ochem exam.

 

[WingedOx]

Unless somehow the new person is the son of a farmer from a French countryside whose family tradition is making cheese. Then that's different, and he won't love Kraft Singles and that will reflect from his demeanor. But for the majority of the time, we don't see that.

To be fair, the nepotism described here is basically how I got through medical training. And I've always been more of a Kraft singles type of MD.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

You don't need to be rude to give a dose of reality. Everything can be said in a kinder way. But being kind doesn't get you likes on SDN, being rude and sarcastic does.
You can be realistic and honest with people without trying to crush their aspirations and dreams from the jump. It ruins self confidence and its something I wish didn't affect me as much as it did in college. It can really damage performance.

That's why I said "in and of itself." Giving a dose of reality is not rude. Telling someone they will most likely change their mind in medical school (since ~80% do) isn't rude. Telling someone that gunning for one of the most competitive specialties when you haven't even completed the med school prereqs or taken the MCAT is jumping the gun and setting you up for burnout/disappointment isn't rude. Making fun of someone for wanting to be a neurosurgeon is, but that's not the same thing.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

That one guy who makes it can tell us all to **** off, but it's fun to make fun of the rest of them.

I actually don't see why it would be "fun" to make fun of someone for being misinformed or naive.

 

[tammyp]

That's why I said "in and of itself." Giving a dose of reality is not rude. Telling someone they will most likely change their mind in medical school (since ~80% do) isn't rude. Telling someone that gunning for one of the most competitive specialties when you haven't even completed the med school prereqs or taken the MCAT is jumping the gun and setting you up for burnout/disappointment isn't rude. Making fun of someone for wanting to be a neurosurgeon is, but that's not the same thing.

I wasn't disagreeing with you, I know that the concept of giving a dose of reality isn't rude. I'm just emphasizing that how its done can be extremely rude and condescending to the point where its no longer about helping the student but just about making yourself feel more important or trying to get a like from SDN users.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

extremely rude and condescending to the point where its no longer about helping the student but just about making yourself feel more important

I don’t think the comments of anyone here match that description.


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[tammyp]

I don’t think the comments of anyone here match that description.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

I'm not referring to this particular thread, I'm referring to some of the comments on the type of threads OP was talking about.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I don’t think the comments of anyone here match that description.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

I did notice one person say that they think it's fun to make fun of them, but that's as close as it's gotten I think.

 

[21Rush12]

It sounds mean until you meet the people IRL and realize they’re insufferable.

Yes, 1/1000 are actually great people who are going to make it. But 999 of them are the most obnoxious “premeds” on the planet.

Being in Med school is different though. I know multiple people who are 100% going to be neurosurgeons and they’re far different from the starry-eyed ignorant second semester freshmen who are confidently riding their As in Bio 1 and English Composition all the way to MGH.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I wasn't disagreeing with you, I know that the concept of giving a dose of reality isn't rude. I'm just emphasizing that how its done can be extremely rude and condescending to the point where its no longer about helping the student but just about making yourself feel more important or trying to get a like from SDN users.

I posted about how it's not rude to give a dose of reality, and you quoted me and said it doesn't have to be done in a rude way. I agree with you. I just think some people might be a little sensitive.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

It sounds mean until you meet the people IRL and realize they’re insufferable.

Yes, 1/1000 are actually great people who are going to make it. But 999 of them are the most obnoxious “premeds” on the planet.

Being in Med school is different though. I know multiple people who are 100% going to be neurosurgeons and they’re far different from the starry-eyed ignorant second semester freshmen who are confidently riding their As in Bio 1 and English Composition all the way to MGH.

I don't disagree with you, but I still think that taking pleasure in making fun of those people means you're probably pretty obnoxious as well (not you specifically).

 

[tammyp]

I posted about how it's not rude to give a dose of reality, and you quoted me and said it doesn't have to be done in a rude way. I agree with you. I just think some people might be a little sensitive.

Yeah we're essentially saying the same thing. And I definitely agree that people can be very sensitive but I've been reading "How to Win Friends and Influence People" and its just really changed how I communicate with people online and in person. SDN gets pretty nasty sometimes so I get where OP is coming from, troll post or not.

 

[Goro]

Hey all, I'm brand new here. Well that's not entirely true... I've been lurking on this website without an account for quite some while now. Normally I have never felt the need to post anything, but recently I've been seeing something that has kind of been rubbing me the wrong way.
I've noticed that whenever a pre-med mentions that they want to become a neurosurgeon or something along the same lines, they are almost immediately shot down by some of the "hot shots" over here. I'd like to know what is the reasoning behind this. If asked, I assume they would defend themselves by saying that they are only trying to save others from future disappointment. When you think about it, it is kind of similar to a gunner pre-med telling their classmate that getting into med school is way too hard, and that they should rather look into podiatry instead. Anyway, that's enough of my rambling. Thoughts?

It's because most of these comments come from starry-eyed people who have never set foot in a hospital.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Yeah we're essentially saying the same thing. And I definitely agree that people can be very sensitive but I've been reading "How to Win Friends and Influence People" and its just really changed how I communicate with people online and in person. SDN gets pretty nasty sometimes so I get where OP is coming from, troll post or not.

Yeah, it is odd to me that people find being starry-eyed and annoying to be insufferable, but find it perfectly acceptable to be an obnoxious bully.