What is your response to patients thinking "happiness" caused by anti-depressants isn't real?

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chajjohnson

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Other day in clinic I saw a severely depressed patient refuse to take antidepressants because he didn't think it would be real happiness that resulted from the meds. The psychiatrist I was with spent around 10 minutes explaining why that's not the case but the patient didn't buy it. Anyone have any good explanations they use for patients who think this way?

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Only half joking: typically a sign of personality disorder, would recommend long term insight oriented psychotherapy if resources allow... Explanations are no good unless it comes from the soul *wink*
 
Antidepressants don’t make you happy. I wouldn’t engage.
 
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antidepressants don't make you happy as said above. the patient would be right. the goal of psychiatry has never been to make people happy. the goal of antidepressants is not dissimilar to freud's goal for psychoanalysis, "to transform hysterical misery into common unhappiness."
 
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I think I'd take the route of focusing on the impairments in functioning that led the patient to seeing me. Even if we accept that antidepressants cause a fake happiness, isn't that worthwhile to get their life back on track? We're not planning to be on the antidepressant forever, just to get the patient functioning again consistently.

Don't know if that would work or not, but it's what first came to mind.
 
1) The depression might've not been real either but you suffered from it nonetheless. What do I mean by that? If you had nothing in your life that merited this depression that you suffered then your depression might've been of a nature where it was very biological in nature. Meds do help in that area.
2) Unless the medication makes you hypomanic to manic there's no data showing the antidepresssant causes pathological happiness. For example if you got better on an antidepressant and I kidnapped you, brought you to a third world country and made you a slave you'd still feel bad about it.
3) Depression causes real physiological changes that are harmful such as inflammatory responses against your body and brain. Treating this, getting rid of this pathological process, is still a very important step in improving your health.
4) If you truly feel better with this antidepressant, this will translate to real improvements in your life such as better concentration, memory, sleep, better productivity at work, etc.
5) IF you do not consider this "real" happiness, then this opinion could be of a philosophical nature that transcends the objective and scientific process of medical science. Nonetheless everything I mentioned above are objective measures. If you want to feel what you think of as "real" happiness then we'd have to explore what you mean by this. This could be further explored in psychotherapy or a self-discovery of your own design but in terms of treatment, you were treated within the standard of care. Tell me your thoughts.
 
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The goal of medication is not happiness. Nor is it to have them be on medication for the rest of their life. But commonly when someone is depressed, they're in "a rut," from which they can't seem to get themselves out of it on their own. Medications help the person out of the hole and give them some momentum so everything else can take hold (therapy, changing life circumstances, etc). Then, eventually, the medication becomes less necessary.

I also take the tack that I hate to see people suffering, and that I can see how much they're suffering. Feeling "better" can be a good thing all on its own, just to get some relief while we do all the other things to achieve a better life. I also typically emphasize purpose or finding meaning in life over happiness, because happiness is fleeting. All emotions should be temporary, which is exactly the problem -- they're stuck in feeling depressed.
 
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Explain it like they take away a negative to bring you back to a neutral baseline? Like tylenol takes away my back pain, but it doesn't make my back/core muscles stronger (which is another thing I need to do to prevent back pain) or make me feel "good" like a massage does. It just allows me to not have back pain keeping me up at night/distracting me during the day.
 
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Other day in clinic I saw a severely depressed patient refuse to take antidepressants because he didn't think it would be real happiness that resulted from the meds. The psychiatrist I was with spent around 10 minutes explaining why that's not the case but the patient didn't buy it. Anyone have any good explanations they use for patients who think this way?

Does exercising, keeping a good diet, getting a good nights rest, etc. MAKE us happy? No, but they’re choices we make to give us the best shot, just like taking (or not taking) medication is a choice.

And to echo the above, we need to clarify what people mean when they say “happy,” which for most is having some degree of control, sense of purpose and lack of anxiety/stress. Antidepressants can help by removing barriers, but not creating de novo.
 
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I get what you're saying but I feel like you have to engage with your patients...
I’m pretty sure he meant not to engage in a debate with patients which is almost always good advice. If you find yourself trying to convince someone to do something they don’t want to do then you are in trouble. The more you try to convince them the less they will want to do it. This is more obvious with teens, adults will just hide their resistance better.
 
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"Don't worry; it won't last."

(Don't actually say that.)

<- Not a doctor or anything like a doctor.
 
You know, I will say, that antidepressants of various categories can have very interesting affects... it's almost like what I *imagine* :rolleyes: hallucinagens to be like... colors are brighter, food has more flavor, sex is better, everything has more zest. You feel lighter and getting out of bed is easier.

Is this fake happiness? If we really want to buy into some concept of neurotransmitter balances playing a role in all of this.... What is more real? The apple being tasteless and dull? Or being able to enjoy the apple?

Depression is being stuck in hole. It is not a good state of being. Let's not discuss how normal it is or not. Antidepressants don't manufacture happiness... but I'll tell you this right now, it's easier to be happy when the apple has flavor. It's hard to argue in my mind that the apple *shouldn't* have flavor, that the flavor you now taste isn't real, and the lack of "reality" given the fact that you are currently only tasting it while on medication...

Patients like this piss me off. They shouldn't, I know.

Here's the thing, is what you're doing now, is that a state of existence you would like to continue? No??? Then why so choosy with the solutions? One would almost think you don't want to get better.

I tell my back pain patients this all the time. OK, you don't think tylenol or ibuprofen do anything, and you want narcotics. You know, I sorta get that. Here's the unfortunate truth: we all have this belief that for the person *truly* in pain, they would do any reasonable thing with low SE to try to alleviate that pain. That's what people expect you to do before they hand out hardcore drugs that have hardcore SEs.

Depressed people, like chronic LBP, have reasons to think they'll always continue to suffer. But I'm not hearing any convincing reason why they're not grabbing onto the life preserver thrown to them.

I loved what one psychiatrist used to say inpt, "You are literally fighting for your life right now. That's why you're here." (the ones who admitted they wanted to stop hurting, not really die)

I had one doctor say to me once, "You're here because what YOU'RE doing isn't working, right? That's why you're seeing a doctor. That's why you should consider doing something you haven't done before, right?"

And the last bit is all mine, "The proof is in the pudding." Meaning, who gives a **** how real any of it is? How real is your depression? How real is happiness? Maybe it's possible you have a mental illness (cuz honestly, not everyone is running around feeling the way you do, either you're just specially plugged into some higher school of thought, or you just think that) and it's distorted your thinking on all of this.

So do you want your "real" misery (that you just happen to think is "realer") or do you want "fake" happiness (never mind that the pills don't give you happiness or that the benefits are fake)? Isn't possible that your sense of real or not real is distorted now? And you're more worried about a pill distorting that in a way that makes you more functional, and a better family member/friend?

Basically, you're taking the chance that medications will change your perspective on all of this, and THAT is the very real "risk" of all of this. That you recover from all the distorted thinking of your depression and get "brainwashed" and seduced by tastier apples. The reality is that you're really only going to take antidepressants if they help you. And if they help you... then why shouldn't you take them? Worst case they do nothing and you stop. Best case you feel better. Why is real suffering more noble than manufactured happiness? At some point, you are a crossroads of possibly imperfect scenarios and have to pick one to try to live in. But what about being stuck on pills?

That's very very few people, most people they help the distorted thinking, put the flavor in the apple, help you get out of bed, and do stuff to maintain a new less shytty way of being.

It's highly probable that whatever degree of feeling better on antidepressants, you can feel off them. You're not there now, because as I put it, "it takes "oomph" to get over depression. You've probably used whatever oomph you had up to this point. You need to sleep well, wake, exercise, eat properly, and a load of other things to take good care of yourself and not be depressed. Sound like all the stuff you're having a hard time with now? So the pills will just help you get the "oomph" to do all the things you need to do not be depressed in general, let alone without pills like you are now."

Because of the distorted thinking of depression, patients will say they've never not been unhappy or depressed. So usually you just have to prompt them to remember that there was indeed a time where at minimum life was "easier" as far as showering, work, eating, whatever ADLs.

This is my spiel. I've never had a patient not acknowledge this as logic and theirs as flawed in light of this. Now, I've made peace with being right, being acknowledged as being right, and then it making not a God's bit of difference, because patients will always be as bad as they wanna be.
 
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I tell my back pain patients this all the time. OK, you don't think tylenol or ibuprofen do anything, and you want narcotics. You know, I sorta get that. Here's the unfortunate truth: we all have this belief that for the person *truly* in pain, they would do any reasonable thing with low SE to try to alleviate that pain. That's what people expect you to do before they hand out hardcore drugs that have hardcore SEs.
I know this is tangential to the larger point you're making, but I was always under the impression that the OTC pain-relievers have bad side effects even when compared to say morphine, esp if you take out the addiction aspect (which historically has not been an issue for all people--opiates have been used OTC for centuries). For example, NSAIDS can ulcerate your stomach, raise blood pressure, and increase the risk of heart attack (with the exception of aspirin, and ironically morphine is given during heart attacks), while Tylenol can increase the risk of acute and chronic cardiac liver issues and also increases cardiac risks. From my understanding (which could very well be wrong as I don't know as much abut opiates as I do OTC painkillers), morphine is a relatively clean drug, albeit habit-forming and fatal in overdose (but so is Tylenol). It seems like there's a potential for bad outcomes with either OTC or opiate pain-relievers long-term, but they result from different issues. I would call both hard-core (which is why I take ibuprofen or Tylenol as an absolute last resort--maybe once or twice a year, and given that I am on benzos I refused opiates after my appendectomy due to fear of synergistic respiratory depression). I personally know someone who had a bad back, had back surgery, then had a worse bad back, and was on long-term ibuprofen. I don't know what exactly happened to her stomach, but I know she had to have some sort of intestinal surgery as a result of the long-term ibuprofen use and can't eat raw vegetables now (everything has to be well-cooked).
 
If you have the time, it's an invitation to a deeper conversation. What does the patient mean by "real happiness" and what do they think would get them there? It sounds more like an existential issue than a need for psychopharmacology education.
 
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