What is your view of naturopathic doctors?

[ND Student]

Thank you for reviewing this issue, listening to my concerns, and recognizing that NMSA’s social media posts should be more careful. I would suggest avoiding all content from similar sites like NaturalNews as well; even if one particular article seems fairly benign, the rest of the content hosted on these sites is generally pretty bad.

I did a little more research and it looks like it’s fairly routine for Sayer Ji and GreenMedInfo to misrepresent study results and cite bad studies. This Science Blogs article “I do not think that study shows what you think it shows” covers another article co-written by Sayer Ji and Kelly Brogan MD (HPV Vaccine Maker’s Study Proves Natural HPV Infection Beneficial, Not Deadly) that makes statements like it’s just an “assumption” and not necessarily a scientifically proven fact that cervical cancer can be fatal and HPV can cause cervical cancer.

Honestly the entire GreenMedInfo website is riddled with BS and misleading interpretations of study results. The information about vaccines and cancer treatment are particularly bad.
Some random examples:
Vaccines

- "200 Evidence Based Reasons NOT to Vaccinate – FREE Research PDF Download!"
- "No Historical Benefit in Vaccines: Polish Study"
- "Study Links Vaccine Induced Overload to Autism, Diabetes, Obesity"​

Cancer Treatment

- "Why This Doctor Says You Should Avoid the Oncologist – Video: Michael Farley ND"
- "The Problems with Chemotherapy – Video: Michael Farley ND"
- "Why Doctors “Do Not Want to find a Cure for Cancer” – Video: Ronald Klatz, MD DO"
- "Cancer Nurse Quits After Discovering Nutrition Heals Cancer - Video"
- Etc.​

Allopathy

- "Why You Should Fire Your MD Now – Video: Peter Glidden ND"​

Yep. I agree natural news is 75% bogus. There's a lot of bad info out there. The whole vaccine thing gets blown out of proportion in terms of how people view NDs. As a profession we are totally in favor of vaccines (the AANP will be posting their vaccine position paper. I read it a few weeks ago. Totally in favor of vaccination.). In school, we're taught the science and encouraged to come up with our own vaccine schedule. There is no anti-vaccine dogma whatsoever. That said, I think the CDC schedule needs a serious overhaul, and pharma companies need to get their mitts off of legislatures and docs.

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[Vain Brother]

So... I'll likely get a lot of flack for this, but that goes without saying on this forum ;-). This SDN experience has got me thinking. I've been speaking with MD/DO friends quite a bit the past couple days. I've decided to wholeheartedly stick with Naturopathic and Chinese medicine. I love the medicine, the standard of care, the culture, and the scope. I've seen NDs change a lot of people's lives and heal serious chronic disease. I want to help this profession grow. I won't be going back for an MD, but I look forward to working with them, as well as everyone else (DO, DC, LAc, NP, RN, PhD, etc.).

i can assure you that you weren't going to get into any US MD program anyway, but best of luck

 

[ERK123]

Yep. I agree natural news is 75% bogus. There's a lot of bad info out there. The whole vaccine thing gets blown out of proportion in terms of how people view NDs. As a profession we are totally in favor of vaccines (the AANP will be posting their vaccine position paper. I read it a few weeks ago. Totally in favor of vaccination.). In school, we're taught the science and encouraged to come up with our own vaccine schedule. There is no anti-vaccine dogma whatsoever. That said, I think the CDC schedule needs a serious overhaul, and pharma companies need to get their mitts off of legislatures and docs.

Why do you think the the vaccine schedule needs alteration?

 

[Vain Brother]

Why do you think the the vaccine schedule needs alteration?

the customer is always right

 

[ERK123]

the customer is always right

Just trying to make a living

 

[loris]

@ND Student
Seriously dude. The article shared a few hours ago by the Naturopathic Medical Student Association’s Facebook page contains even more inaccurate, potentially harmful information and it links to Healthy Holistic Living, a site that has articles like this one: “How One Woman Healed her Ovarian Cancer Through Diet and Lifestyle Changes” which will lead to some recently diagnosed patients forgoing any potentially lifesaving or life-prolonging treatment and dying early. The NMSA FB post with today’s link states “Spaghetti squash for pasta, almond milk for skim milk, coconut aminos for soy! Oh my! This is a great reference list with well organized infographics that would be a good resource for patients. ‪#‎naturopathic‬ ‪#‎prevention‬ ‪#‎NMSALife‬.”

Seriously? Just look at one of the infographics in today’s article.
Unless you want to significantly increase their risk of skin cancer by leaving them completely unprotected and let their infections run rampant, you can’t tell people that coconut oil can be effectively used in place of sunscreen, toothpaste, antifungals, antibiotics, antivirals, antiparasitics, thyroid hormone therapy, etc. Also, unless you want to be responsible for unwanted pregnancies and the spread of STDs, you can’t suggest that people use oils as personal lubricants; they breakdown latex condoms and lead to failure. A lot of NDs may believe that they are better at preventing disease, but if they propagate articles like this, then they are actually pretty damn good at increasing disease rates.
15 shares/16 likes and counting.

 

[ND Student]

@ND Student
Seriously dude. I know that you specifically are in a position that has the potential to change this. The article shared a few hours ago by the Naturopathic Medical Student Association’s Facebook page contains even more inaccurate, potentially harmful information and it links to Healthy Holistic Living, a site that has articles like this one: “How One Woman Healed her Ovarian Cancer Through Diet and Lifestyle Changes” which will lead to some recently diagnosed patients forgoing any potentially lifesaving or life-prolonging treatment and dying early. The NMSA FB post with today’s link states “Spaghetti squash for pasta, almond milk for skim milk, coconut aminos for soy! Oh my! This is a great reference list with well organized infographics that would be a good resource for patients. ‪#‎naturopathic‬ ‪#‎prevention‬ ‪#‎NMSALife‬.”

Seriously? Just look at one of the infographics in today’s article.
Unless you want to significantly increase their risk of skin cancer by leaving them completely unprotected and let their infections run rampant, you can’t tell people that coconut oil can be effectively used in place of sunscreen, toothpaste, antifungals, antibiotics, antivirals, antiparasitics, thyroid hormone therapy, etc. Also, unless you want to be responsible for unwanted pregnancies and the spread of STDs, you can’t suggest that people use oils as personal lubricants; they breakdown latex condoms and lead to failure. A lot of NDs may believe that they are better at preventing disease, but if they propagate articles like this, then they are actually pretty damn good at increasing disease rates.
15 shares/16 likes and counting.

I looked through the article. Seems pretty harmless, fun, and useful to me. Coconut oil actually has an SPF of 8! haha. So it would take 8 times longer to burn than not wearing any sunscreen. Not too shabby. I think the recommend is 30...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3140123/

Does the article actually say to use coconut oil as sex lube? Didn't see that.

 

[ND Student]

@ND Student
Seriously dude. I know that you specifically are in a position that has the potential to change this. The article shared a few hours ago by the Naturopathic Medical Student Association’s Facebook page contains even more inaccurate, potentially harmful information and it links to Healthy Holistic Living, a site that has articles like this one: “How One Woman Healed her Ovarian Cancer Through Diet and Lifestyle Changes” which will lead to some recently diagnosed patients forgoing any potentially lifesaving or life-prolonging treatment and dying early. The NMSA FB post with today’s link states “Spaghetti squash for pasta, almond milk for skim milk, coconut aminos for soy! Oh my! This is a great reference list with well organized infographics that would be a good resource for patients. ‪#‎naturopathic‬ ‪#‎prevention‬ ‪#‎NMSALife‬.”

Seriously? Just look at one of the infographics in today’s article.
Unless you want to significantly increase their risk of skin cancer by leaving them completely unprotected and let their infections run rampant, you can’t tell people that coconut oil can be effectively used in place of sunscreen, toothpaste, antifungals, antibiotics, antivirals, antiparasitics, thyroid hormone therapy, etc. Also, unless you want to be responsible for unwanted pregnancies and the spread of STDs, you can’t suggest that people use oils as personal lubricants; they breakdown latex condoms and lead to failure. A lot of NDs may believe that they are better at preventing disease, but if they propagate articles like this, then they are actually pretty damn good at increasing disease rates.
15 shares/16 likes and counting.

I looked through the article. Seems pretty harmless, fun, and useful to me. Coconut oil actually has an SPF of 8! haha. So it would take 8 times longer to burn than not wearing any sunscreen. Not too shabby. I think the recommend is 30...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3140123/

Does the article actually say to use coconut oil as sex lube? Didn't see that.

Still going to forward your concerns and pay closer attention to this.

 

[ND Student]

i can assure you that you weren't going to get into any US MD program anyway, but best of luck

Already was accepted. That said, it would probably be trickier after having changed paths.

 

[loris]

I looked through the article. Seems pretty harmless, fun, and useful to me. Coconut oil actually has an SPF of 8! haha. So it would take 8 times longer to burn than not wearing any sunscreen. Not too shabby. I think the recommend is 30...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3140123/

Does the article actually say to use coconut oil as sex lube? Didn't see that.

Still going to forward your concerns and pay closer attention to this.

“Personal Lubricant” is in the middle of the list on the “Beauty” side of the coconut oil infographic.

Why wouldn’t you just recommend that they use the most effective option to protect themselves? If someone is going to spend the time, effort, and money to slather something all over their skin in order to protect it from sun damage, then why would you tell them to use a sunscreen alternative especially if your alternative option doesn’t even provide the minimum recommended SPF? Since the SPF isn’t listed in the infographic, people are going to assume that coconut oil provides the equivalent or at least the minimum amount of protection. I guess you could argue that adults who personally chose to use coconut oil instead of sunscreen without researching the SPF are responsible for any skin damage they receive, but what about the dependent relatives (children, elderly, etc.) of the adults who read this and don’t do their research?

 

[Psai]

personal lubricant eh?

 

[ND Student]

Ah, I see.

I wouldn't necessarily recommend coconut oil as sunscreen over something else. I would perhaps include it as an option if the pt is looking for alternatives and may benefit from its use. I'd let them know about SPF differences and whatever else may come to mind. There are potentially toxic substances in industrial sunscreens, and some people do have adverse reactions. Some people are just not willing to wear it, whether it's just out of some kind of phobia of chemicals or something more analytical. That brings up another point: folks who tend to be averse to 'conventional' healthcare are able to access care that they wouldn't otherwise be able to seek out. Some people, for whatever reason, tend to be more receptive to NDs, so it gives us opportunity to help them understand that pharma and surgery are not 'bad' so long as they are utilized wisely. People can get lost in the healthcare system, and yea, some people do become victims of it. NDs often get an opportunity to explain to biased pts that pharma and surgery save a great many lives, and that most all interventions have a place and purpose.

 

[username456789]

“Personal Lubricant” is in the middle of the list on the “Beauty” side of the coconut oil infographic.

Why wouldn’t you just recommend that they use the most effective option to protect themselves? If someone is going to spend the time, effort, and money to slather something all over their skin in order to protect it from sun damage, then why would you tell them to use a sunscreen alternative especially if your alternative option doesn’t even provide the minimum recommended SPF? Since the SPF isn’t listed in the infographic, people are going to assume that coconut oil provides the equivalent or at least the minimum amount of protection. I guess you could argue that adults who personally chose to use coconut oil instead of sunscreen without researching the SPF are responsible for any skin damage they receive, but what about the dependent relatives (children, elderly, etc.) of the adults who read this and don’t do their research?

Coconut oil is the latest trend, and any good snake oil salesman/ND latches onto these things to help ingratiate themselves with the masses.

It proceeds as such:
1. Society inexplicably and suddenly becomes infatuated with coconut oil
2. NDs take note
3. NDs begin to strongly endorse many false/exaggerated claims regarding coconut oil and its uses
4. People in society see NDs reinforcing their own pre-existing (and once again inexplicable) infatuation with cocnut oil
5. Society fawns over NDs

It's actually quite clever, and possibly the only true skill the NDs possess.

 

[Bryan O’Blivion]

Yep. I agree natural news is 75% bogus. There's a lot of bad info out there. The whole vaccine thing gets blown out of proportion in terms of how people view NDs. As a profession we are totally in favor of vaccines (the AANP will be posting their vaccine position paper. I read it a few weeks ago. Totally in favor of vaccination.). In school, we're taught the science and encouraged to come up with our own vaccine schedule. There is no anti-vaccine dogma whatsoever. That said, I think the CDC schedule needs a serious overhaul, and pharma companies need to get their mitts off of legislatures and docs.

Patients who see naturopaths as PCPs are significantly less likely to vaccinate their children. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2924961/

While the AANP may pay lip service to vaccination, the advice many actual naturopaths give to their patients on the subject is likely to differ. Here is a good example of the "balanced" presentation one ND gives his patients, in keeping with the AANP's positions: http://www.southbaytotalhealth.com/Vaccinations.htm. For anyone well acquainted with history, immunology, or infectious disease, it is clearly the offering of a naive mind. Unfortunately, this does not seem to be a minority opinion among naturopaths.

When reading pages like this the conclusion that I come to is that it bespeaks of the disservice that naturopathic education does to its graduates: After four years of never running to codes, never treating septic patients in ICU, never treating patients in the ED, never operating, never running wards of sick patients at night, ND schools turn their students loose with the notion that they are physicians. Since it is questionable whether or not ND students ever treat acutely ill patients, one can understand why they come to a world view devoid of an appreciation of or respect for infectious disease.

Again, not necessarily disparaging naturopaths. I have been seen and treated by multiple naturopaths, as a patient. Some treatments were useless. Others, surprisingly beneficial. I credit a regimen recommended by a naturopath for reducing my projected requirement for physical therapy, post trauma.

The point I am trying to make is that all this lobbying for the expansion of scope of practice is not a good idea. There are a lot of things naturopaths should really not attempt to manage. Unfortunately, these sort of problems come to you, when you start calling yourself a physician, and make statements of equivalency.

 

[ERK123]

Personal Lubricant” is in the middle of the list on the “Beauty” side of the coconut oil infographic.

Why wouldn’t you just recommend that they use the most effective option to protect themselves? If someone is going to spend the time, effort, and money to slather something all over their skin in order to protect it from sun damage, then why would you tell them to use a sunscreen alternative especially if your alternative option doesn’t even provide the minimum recommended SPF? Since the SPF isn’t listed in the infographic, people are going to assume that coconut oil provides the equivalent or at least the minimum amount of protection. I guess you could argue that adults who personally chose to use coconut oil instead of sunscreen without researching the SPF are responsible for any skin damage they receive, but what about the dependent relatives (children, elderly, etc.) of the adults who read this and don’t do their research?

Ah, I see.

I wouldn't necessarily recommend coconut oil as sunscreen over something else. I would perhaps include it as an option if the pt is looking for alternatives and may benefit from its use. I'd let them know about SPF differences and whatever else may come to mind. There are potentially toxic substances in industrial sunscreens, and some people do have adverse reactions. Some people are just not willing to wear it, whether it's just out of some kind of phobia of chemicals or something more analytical. That brings up another point: folks who tend to be averse to 'conventional' healthcare are able to access care that they wouldn't otherwise be able to seek out. Some people, for whatever reason, tend to be more receptive to NDs, so it gives us opportunity to help them understand that pharma and surgery are not 'bad' so long as they are utilized wisely. People can get lost in the healthcare system, and yea, some people do become victims of it. NDs often get an opportunity to explain to biased pts that pharma and surgery save a great many lives, and that most all interventions have a place and purpose.

I think that Im beginning to understand. ND's are for people who are in part for people who are too crazy to accept traditional medicine (I suppose there are some occasions where this could be a positive). Instead, ND's provide an avenue of healthcare for people who would otherwise not seek any medicine, just like crazy religious patients might want crazy religious doctors (thanks Liberty). I guess this is one positive of ND's. However, I think this has long term consequences.

 

[ND Student]

Patients who see naturopaths as PCPs are significantly less likely to vaccinate their children. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2924961/

While the AANP may pay lip service to vaccination, the advice many actual naturopaths give to their patients on the subject is likely to differ. Here is a good example of the "balanced" presentation one ND gives his patients, in keeping with the AANP's positions: http://www.southbaytotalhealth.com/Vaccinations.htm. For anyone well acquainted with history, immunology, or infectious disease, it is clearly the offering of a naive mind. Unfortunately, this does not seem to be a minority opinion among naturopaths.

When reading pages like this the conclusion that I come to is that it bespeaks of the disservice that naturopathic education does to its graduates: After four years of never running to codes, never treating septic patients in ICU, never treating patients in the ED, never operating, never running wards of sick patients at night, ND schools turn their students loose with the notion that they are physicians. Since it is questionable whether or not ND students ever treat acutely ill patients, one can understand why they come to a world view devoid of an appreciation of or respect for infectious disease.

Again, not necessarily disparaging naturopaths. I have been seen and treated by multiple naturopaths, as a patient. Some treatments were useless. Others, surprisingly beneficial. I credit a regimen recommended by a naturopath for reducing my projected requirement for physical therapy, post trauma.

The point I am trying to make is that all this lobbying for the expansion of scope of practice is not a good idea. There are a lot of things naturopaths should really not attempt to manage. Unfortunately, these sort of problems come to you, when you start calling yourself a physician, and make statements of equivalency.

I'm definitely not looking for a vaccine debate. I haven't read the article, but there are MDs and DOs that don't like vaccines as well, albeit it is likely that a larger percentage of NDs are skeptical of vaccines. I did intend to respond the the CDC schedule comment. Put simply, it seems strange that in a developed country, the CDC recommends we pump infants with 20-30 doses foreign proteins, adjutants, and preservatives before 2yo, often through injecting multiple vaccines simultaneously... pretty taxing on a baby's body. To be candid, vaccine reactions are real and common, but people most often cannot get a balanced full story, so they become fearful and take on extreme stances. To me, the bottom line is the vaccine issue is very complex. I am not anti-vaccine. I believe vaccines most definitely have their place in healthcare. But, there are a lot of kinks to work out of the science and distribution system. One thing I can take a stance on is that I believe mandatory vaccination should not be legally enforced. There is simply too much corruption in the US govt and poor boundaries between government, industry, and academia. These sects of society are meant to regulate each other, but instead they are collaborating. I do not want these people determining what and when chemicals should be injected into my or, hypothetically speaking, my child's body. I see this as a violation of civil rights.

It would be nice if ND students got more exposure to acute healthcare settings, which I think will inevitably happen as part of our education, but I would not go nearly as far as to say that NDs are 'devoid' of respect for infectious disease. That is simply not the case.

 

[ERK123]

Put simply, it seems strange that in a developed country, the CDC recommends we pump infants with 20-30 doses foreign proteins, adjutants, and preservatives before 2yo, often through injecting multiple vaccines simultaneously... pretty taxing on a baby's body. To be candid, vaccine reactions are real and common, but people most often cannot get a balanced full story, so they become fearful and take on extreme stances. To me, the bottom line is the vaccine issue is very complex. I am not anti-vaccine. I believe vaccines most definitely have their place in healthcare. But, there are a lot of kinks to work out of the science and distribution system.

You better provide peer reviewed sources to back up these assertions, because I have never heard these claims backed up by anything other than bull****.

 

[ND Student]

I think that Im beginning to understand. ND's are for people who are in part for people who are too crazy to accept traditional medicine (I suppose there are some occasions where this could be a positive). Instead, ND's provide an avenue of healthcare for people who would otherwise not seek any medicine, just like crazy religious patients might want crazy religious doctors (thanks Liberty). I guess this is one positive of ND's. However, I think this has long term consequences.

Sure, we get people like that, but we also get people with other legitimate concerns. For instance, my aunt has scleroderma. Her friend who was the same age as her also had scleroderma, and she recently died from lung involvement despite having sought out the best care possible at the time. Despite my aunt's thorough efforts in seeking out the best medical care possible, her pathological condition continued to progress. Her docs told her there was nothing more they could offer her. She sought me out because she was scared. I recommend her to an ND who specializes in MS disorders. She's now getting better. I have a close friend who's experience in the psychiatric healthcare system has added significant burden to her life. An ND has helped her significantly. People who's loved ones have died from a drug reaction (my grandmother, for instance) often seek out NDs. Unnecessary surgeries and prescriptions skew people's trust in conventional treatment. My mechanic's wife had 3 cervical vertebra fused dt chronic pain as a 'last resort'. Didn't help. Her docs were at a loss. An ND is helping her. I am not disparaging anyone. MDs and DOs save countless lives and help people get better all the time. Just trying to level the playing field. I've seen it at work first-hand many times.

 

[ND Student]

You better provide peer reviewed sources to back up these assertions, because I have never heard these claims backed up by anything other than bull****.

Okay, I most definitely will as soon as I have time.

 

[Bryan O’Blivion]

@ND Student : I also am not looking for a vaccine debate, I find it wearisome beyond belief.

You feel that it is not the case that NDs are devoid of respect for infectious disease? Well, the guy who wrote the link I posted is. He recommends using homeopathy in the lieu of vaccination, or eating well and intentionally exposing one's kids to childhood diseases. Tell me, is he a rogue? An outlier? Or is he just an example of someone who considers himself to be an authority on something he really does not know anything about? My guess is option three. According to the numbers, he's not alone.

He asserts that infectious disease was a scourge of centuries past. It might appear that way to him, because he hasn't had much opportunity to encounter or treat it. People form their world view out of their experiences. I don't think that this guy is inherently evil, I just think that he doesn't know what he's talking about, so he really shouldn't be giving advice about it. Especially not as a health care practitioner. Unfortunately, his degree, with the D for doctor at the end of it, has allowed him to fool himself into thinking that he is qualified to make such statements, and that they are backed up by evidence.

Don't be like that.

Unless you actually somehow start working in an academic children's hospital, treating sick patients with infectious disease, performing laboratory and population studies and find evidence to support the conclusion that kids should have a different vaccination schedule based on the risk benefit ratio you have observed, you really don't have any solid reason to construct a vaccine schedule for your patients. Just because you feel that kids get injected with too many proteins, ADJUVANTS, and preservatives, and you get to introduce yourself as "doctor" isn't really reason enough. At the end of the story, you really just don't know. You may think you know, but you don't. I'm not being harsh here. I appreciate your enthusiasm for what you do, and your willingness to engage in this conversation.

We all are in the process of learning. Developing an awareness of the extent of what you don't know is an important part of that process. For instance, I am not going to tray and gainsay your point about your relative with scleroderma, mostly because I don't know all that much about the different treatments for scleroderma. I saw a few cases in rheum clinic as a med student, but sure did not follow them longitudinally. My general sense is that treated or untreated, it tends to be progressive. But I am really not at all aware of experimental or alternative treatments for it, and so, I have to say, I don't know.

Good luck in your career as a wellness entrepreneur (Bastyr's phrase, not mine). If you find a reliable method of reversing scleroderma, and hard evidence that it works, I mean this in all seriousness, let me know, I'd be genuinely interested. Just... Don't steer people away from the rheumatologist if they aren't ACTUALLY getting better.


-Brick

 

[ND Student]

@ND Student : I also am not looking for a vaccine debate, I find it wearisome beyond belief.

You feel that it is not the case that NDs are devoid of respect for infectious disease? Well, the guy who wrote the link I posted is. He recommends using homeopathy in the lieu of vaccination, or eating well and intentionally exposing one's kids to childhood diseases. Tell me, is he a rogue? An outlier? Or is he just an example of someone who considers himself to be an authority on something he really does not know anything about? My guess is option three. According to the numbers, he's not alone.

He asserts that infectious disease was a scourge of centuries past. It might appear that way to him, because he hasn't had much opportunity to encounter or treat it. People form their world view out of their experiences. I don't think that this guy is inherently evil, I just think that he doesn't know what he's talking about, so he really shouldn't be giving advice about it. Especially not as a health care practitioner. Unfortunately, his degree, with the D for doctor at the end of it, has allowed him to fool himself into thinking that he is qualified to make such statements, and that they are backed up by evidence.

Don't be like that.

Unless you actually somehow start working in an academic children's hospital, treating sick patients with infectious disease, performing laboratory and population studies and find evidence to support the conclusion that kids should have a different vaccination schedule based on the risk benefit ratio you have observed, you really don't have any solid reason to construct a vaccine schedule for your patients. Just because you feel that kids get injected with too many proteins, ADJUVANTS, and preservatives, and you get to introduce yourself as "doctor" isn't really reason enough. At the end of the story, you really just don't know. You may think you know, but you don't. I'm not being harsh here. I appreciate your enthusiasm for what you do, and your willingness to engage in this conversation.

We all are in the process of learning. Developing an awareness of the extent of what you don't know is an important part of that process. For instance, I am not going to tray and gainsay your point about your relative with scleroderma, mostly because I don't know all that much about the different treatments for scleroderma. I saw a few cases in rheum clinic as a med student, but sure did not follow them longitudinally. My general sense is that treated or untreated, it tends to be progressive. But I am really not at all aware of experimental or alternative treatments for it, and so, I have to say, I don't know.

Good luck in your career as a wellness entrepreneur (Bastyr's phrase, not mine). If you find a reliable method of reversing scleroderma, and hard evidence that it works, I mean this in all seriousness, let me know, I'd be genuinely interested. Just... Don't steer people away from the rheumatologist if they aren't ACTUALLY getting better.


-Brick

Your points are well taken. I do not claim to be an expert on vaccine schedules - just sharing an opinion and having an open-minded discussion. From what you describe, he seems to me to be an outlier. At NCNM, we have classes available to learn specifically about vaccines. The most popular elective is taught by Heather Zwickey, PhD. She's a respected immunologist. Another resource currently sought out by our profession is Vaccine Consult LLC, which offers continuing education on individualized vaccination schedules: http://vaccineconsult.com/ce-courses/live-webinars/#VBA. It's open to all professions. I know of a few MDs who have taken courses with her, and they have given positive feedback. PCPs administer vaccines. I want to be as informed as possible.

My aunt's friend had rapidly progressive systemic sclerosis. My aunt has been told that she has a unique case of systemic sclerosis. The disease was progressing until she started the ND regimen. Her symptoms eventually started to improve and she seems to have plateaued. That's all I know. I'll post something if I learn more.

I appreciate your comment that we are all in the process of learning.

 

[AlteredScale]

Your points are well taken. I do not claim to be an expert on vaccine schedules - just sharing an opinion and having an open-minded discussion. From what you describe, he seems to me to be an outlier. At NCNM, we have classes available to learn specifically about vaccines. The most popular elective is taught by Heather Zwickey, PhD. She's a respected immunologist. Another resource currently sought out by our profession is Vaccine Consult LLC, which offers continuing education on individualized vaccination schedules: http://vaccineconsult.com/ce-courses/live-webinars/#VBA. It's open to all professions. I know of a few MDs who have taken courses with her, and they have given positive feedback. PCPs administer vaccines. I want to be as informed as possible.

My aunt's friend had rapidly progressive systemic sclerosis. My aunt has been told that she has a unique case of systemic sclerosis. The disease was progressing until she started the ND regimen. Her symptoms eventually started to improve and she seems to have plateaued. That's all I know. I'll post something if I learn more.

I appreciate your comment that we are all in the process of learning.

Thank you for your responses to this thread and for keeping an open mind to other opinions.

For Prof. Zwickey, why would you consider her to be respected in the terms of the field of immunology? The latest in the literature with her authorship include "Is prayer CAM?" while the one authorship she does have related to her prior training is to a prelim clinical study in which the article presents no explanation as to where she was actually involved in the research.

IMO, I think she is respected in the world of NM but I wouldn't say in immunology. But wow yes she does have two active grants under her name (NIH Reporter Results Here).

 

[WingedOx]

I think that Im beginning to understand. ND's are for people who are in part for people who are too crazy to accept traditional medicine (I suppose there are some occasions where this could be a positive). Instead, ND's provide an avenue of healthcare for people who would otherwise not seek any medicine, just like crazy religious patients might want crazy religious doctors (thanks Liberty). I guess this is one positive of ND's. However, I think this has long term consequences.

this would be fine except for the intense amount of marketing that goes on in the "natural" medicine community. They're just as likely to pull someone away from an effective practitioner than someone getting no care at all.

 

[ND Student]

Thank you for your responses to this thread and for keeping an open mind to other opinions.

For Prof. Zwickey, why would you consider her to be respected in the terms of the field of immunology? The latest in the literature with her authorship include "Is prayer CAM?" while the one authorship she does have related to her prior training is to a prelim clinical study in which the article presents no explanation as to where she was actually involved in the research.

IMO, I think she is respected in the world of NM but I wouldn't say in immunology. But wow yes she does have two active grants under her name (NIH Reporter Results Here).

Hm... I would call her a researcher with special interests in clinical immunology and NM. Her career has been devoted to these areas. She got her PhD in immunology and microbiology and she's established in these fields. However, her association with NM must be difficult to navigate professionally. I've attached her CV from the NCNM website if you want to see her research experience.

 

[loris]

this would be fine except for the intense amount of marketing that goes on in the "natural" medicine community. They're just as likely to pull someone away from an effective practitioner than someone getting no care at all.

I linked the articles with these videos in a previous post. Both were in the video section of a site full of articles with bad health advice that I noticed from article links on NMSA's Fb page; when friends and organizations share articles from these sites, they are also endorsing the rest of the site's content. At the very end of the oncology video, Michael Farley ND confidently tells people that they should forgo surgery, chemo, radiation, or any other conventional medical treatment if they are diagnosed with cancer and tell their physician that they are opting for purely alternative measures instead. In his words, “Once you are diagnosed with cancer, it’s very important that you make every effort to get back to your general practitioner, say, ‘I will sign any release form possible that you would require to give me a better quality of life, because I have chosen not to undergo conventional therapy.’”

Advice like that leads to anecdotes like these:

It can be much more dangerous than that. Because I live in a community with a NMD school and a lot of "woo", we often see patients present with chronic fungating malignancies who have been "treated" by naturopaths. Its criminal.

My personal anecdote is that we had to transplant a patient in fulminant liver failure from taking natural supplements. These herbs and such are not just "harmless" and the idea that something is natural and therefore safe is absurd.

My non-personal anecdote is the tale of Steve Jobs, who had a resectable pancreatic neuroendocrine tumor that he attempted to treat "naturally" for over a year before every undergoing surgery, at which time it had metastasized to his liver.

I see alt med disasters every few months. Kidneys shot from nephrotoxic elixirs, patients who came from seeing chiropractors who "adjusted" their headaches not suspecting the sagittal sinus thrombosis within. Elderly patients crippled by strokes, cozened into buying some ground up herb in a $40 bottle of gelcaps advertised as a blood pressure medicine, giving up their amlodipine ($20) to do so. Immigrant families buying homeopathic remedies for their sick children, thinking they are purchasing medicine.

Michael Farley, ND: "Why Does this Doctor Say Stay Away from the Oncologist?"

Peter Glidden, ND: "Why You Should Fire Your MD Now"

 

[ND Student]

I linked the articles with these videos in a previous post. Both were in the video section of a site full of articles with bad health advice that I noticed from article links on NMSA's Fb page; when friends and organizations share articles from these sites, they are also endorsing the rest of the site's content. At the very end of the oncology video, Michael Farley ND confidently tells people that they should forgo surgery, chemo, radiation, or any other conventional medical treatment if they are diagnosed with cancer and tell their physician that they are opting for purely alternative measures instead. In his words, “Once you are diagnosed with cancer, it’s very important that you make every effort to get back to your general practitioner, say, ‘I will sign any release form possible that you would require to give me a better quality of life, because I have chosen not to undergo conventional therapy.’”

Advice like that leads to anecdotes like these:





Michael Farley, ND: "Why Does this Doctor Say Stay Away from the Oncologist?"

Peter Glidden, ND: "Why You Should Fire Your MD Now"

I looked him up. He did not graduate from an accredited naturopathic medical school. He says he got an "ND" from the "Native American Studies Institute". I've never heard of this school. This guy is an example of what we call "UN-D's", or people who say they are NDs or "naturopaths" when they have not graduated from an accredited ND school. They are not licensed and they cause a lot of confusion, frustration, and misunderstandings within and outside of our profession. These folks will be weeded out as NDs continue to get licensed and regulation becomes more established. Thanks for brining him to my attention.

 

[ND Student]

These people are a better representation of how NDs are trained to view cancer treatment.

Timothy Birdsall, ND, FABNO
Tina Kaczor, ND, FABNO
Chad Aschtgen, ND, FABNO
Michael Traub, ND, FABNO

 

[deleted480308]

I looked him up. He did not graduate from an accredited naturopathic medical school. He says he got an "ND" from the "Native American Studies Institute". I've never heard of this school. This guy is an example of what we call "UN-D's", or people who say they are NDs or "naturopaths" when they have not graduated from an accredited ND school. They are not licensed and they cause a lot of confusion, frustration, and misunderstandings within and outside of our profession. These folks will be weeded out as NDs continue to get licensed and regulation becomes more established. Thanks for brining him to my attention.

It's annoying when crazy people with no actual knowledge run around claiming to be just like you isn't it?

 

[Psai]

Why are we having a discussion with this joker?

 

[Instatewaiter]

Sure, we get people like that, but we also get people with other legitimate concerns. For instance, my aunt has scleroderma. Her friend who was the same age as her also had scleroderma, and she recently died from lung involvement despite having sought out the best care possible at the time. Despite my aunt's thorough efforts in seeking out the best medical care possible, her pathological condition continued to progress. Her docs told her there was nothing more they could offer her. She sought me out because she was scared. I recommend her to an ND who specializes in MS disorders. She's now getting better. I have a close friend who's experience in the psychiatric healthcare system has added significant burden to her life. An ND has helped her significantly. People who's loved ones have died from a drug reaction (my grandmother, for instance) often seek out NDs. Unnecessary surgeries and prescriptions skew people's trust in conventional treatment. My mechanic's wife had 3 cervical vertebra fused dt chronic pain as a 'last resort'. Didn't help. Her docs were at a loss. An ND is helping her. I am not disparaging anyone. MDs and DOs save countless lives and help people get better all the time. Just trying to level the playing field. I've seen it at work first-hand many times.

The plural of anecdoteis not data

 

[Bryan O’Blivion]

I looked him up. He did not graduate from an accredited naturopathic medical school. He says he got an "ND" from the "Native American Studies Institute". I've never heard of this school. This guy is an example of what we call "UN-D's", or people who say they are NDs or "naturopaths" when they have not graduated from an accredited ND school. They are not licensed and they cause a lot of confusion, frustration, and misunderstandings within and outside of our profession. These folks will be weeded out as NDs continue to get licensed and regulation becomes more established. Thanks for brining him to my attention.

Here's the problem, dude: Loris posts two Youtube videos with naturopaths exhorting people to avoid conventional medicine. One of them, according to you, may have printed his ND diploma himself from his home printer on some nice faux vellum card stock, and the other one graduated from Bastyr. To hear them talk, you really could not have predicted which one was which.

Arlan Cage, the homeopathic vaccinator whose private practice page I referenced earlier, obtained his degree from Southwest. So, yes, there are UNDs, NDs, and based on their behavior, it can be pretty hard to tell them apart. So there it is.

What are you looking for here? An acknowledgement that there are sincere naturopaths out there who are earnestly trying to improve health outcomes in their patients? I think I said something like that already. No point in repeating myself.

I have an experiment for you: Why don't you start asking your fellow students and instructors how their treatments work? Why they work? How they know that those treatments are effective, or that the hypothesis behind them is plausible? How they arrived at their point of view? (Other than the old "I went to an allopathic doctor, and he was mean" trope) I think that you will ultimately get more out of that doing that rather than trying to convince a bunch of MD/DO students and residents that your ND degree program produces legit physicians. If you can provide insight into these treatments and hypotheses, and hard clear convincing evidence that they are actually superior in managing chronic disease, then we will have something to talk about. Until then, we are just going over the same old ground: You can name some NDs who are doing good work, and I can show you some NDs who are misinformed and spreading nonsense.

Shalom

 

[Instatewaiter]

Just... Don't steer people away from the rheumatologist if they aren't ACTUALLY getting better.
-Brick

I recently admitted a guy to the cicu who was in shock from chronic and progressive severe Aortic insufficiency from untreated ankylosis spondylitis because he was being "treated" by a chiropractor who didn't know his boundaries. The guy had a completely fused spine and an aortopathy because he wasn't being appropriately treated. It was so bad the intubation for his TEE had to happen with the consent of neurosurgery and with neuro anesthesia present because his spine was so unstable. This degree of progression is no longer seen with appropriate treatment.

People who don't have the training, shouldn't be treating things beyond their scope. Period.

I've seen a naturopath convince a leukemia patient not to go back for consolidation therapy after a fabulous response to induction. The cancer, which was probably going to be cured, progressed and the guy ended up dying from it because his naturopath told him not to continue the chemo therapy.

I assume this isn't the norm but this kind of quackery is criminally dangerous. A natural path and a chiropractor basically shouldn't be treating any serious medical condition. If it worked it would be called
Medicine not natural medicine.

 

[Bryan O’Blivion]

I recently admitted a guy to the cicu who was in shock from chronic and progressive severe Aortic insufficiency from untreated ankylosis spondylitis because he was being "treated" by a chiropractor who didn't know his boundaries. The guy had a completely fused spine and an aortopathy because he wasn't being appropriately treated. It was so bad the intubation for his TEE had to happen with the consent of neurosurgery and with neuro anesthesia present because his spine was so unstable. This degree of progression is no longer seen with appropriate treatment.

People who don't have the training, shouldn't be treating things beyond their scope. Period.

I've seen a naturopath convince a leukemia patient not to go back for consolidation therapy after a fabulous response to induction. The cancer, which was probably going to be cured, progressed and the guy ended up dying from it because his naturopath told him not to continue the chemo therapy.

I assume this isn't the norm but this kind of quackery is criminally dangerous. A natural path and a chiropractor basically shouldn't be treating any serious medical condition. If it worked it would be called
Medicine not natural medicine.

Good point. I cannot disagree with anything you say here. The lack of insight and objectivity are some of the most major problems, along with the demonstrated inability to recognize serious conditions. It is hard to learn this sort of thing without actual experience. Sad, all around.

 

[IlDestriero]

It's annoying when crazy people with no actual knowledge run around claiming to be just like you isn't it?

That was gold man. Thanks!

 

[Microshaft]

fap fap fap

 

[ND Student]

Here's the problem, dude: Loris posts two Youtube videos with naturopaths exhorting people to avoid conventional medicine. One of them, according to you, may have printed his ND diploma himself from his home printer on some nice faux vellum card stock, and the other one graduated from Bastyr. To hear them talk, you really could not have predicted which one was which.

Arlan Cage, the homeopathic vaccinator whose private practice page I referenced earlier, obtained his degree from Southwest. So, yes, there are UNDs, NDs, and based on their behavior, it can be pretty hard to tell them apart. So there it is.

What are you looking for here? An acknowledgement that there are sincere naturopaths out there who are earnestly trying to improve health outcomes in their patients? I think I said something like that already. No point in repeating myself.

I have an experiment for you: Why don't you start asking your fellow students and instructors how their treatments work? Why they work? How they know that those treatments are effective, or that the hypothesis behind them is plausible? How they arrived at their point of view? (Other than the old "I went to an allopathic doctor, and he was mean" trope) I think that you will ultimately get more out of that doing that rather than trying to convince a bunch of MD/DO students and residents that your ND degree program produces legit physicians. If you can provide insight into these treatments and hypotheses, and hard clear convincing evidence that they are actually superior in managing chronic disease, then we will have something to talk about. Until then, we are just going over the same old ground: You can name some NDs who are doing good work, and I can show you some NDs who are misinformed and spreading nonsense.

Shalom

I literally agree with everything you said. I started posting here in response to the original thread topic. Since then, I've gotten a lot of questions and felt compelled to clear up some possible misconceptions. I've learned a lot through this whole process and feel fortunate to have gone through it. I am not on here trying to promote NDs as better than MDs or DOs. However, I do want to share that the majority of NDs out there are solid people trying their best to be good healthcare providers, and a good number of them are working as PCPs. If I wanted to, I could post any number of videos, essays, books, or evidence from misinformed, confused, or outright criminal MDs or DOs, but I do not want to do that because I do not believe it is constructive. I respect good doctors, period. Sure, there are quacks out there, and there are irresponsible and lazy docs out there, but I am not about to paint all MDs, DOs, or NDs as such. In general, I am going to show a deep respect for the people who have chosen the path of becoming a doctor, because I like to think that the majority of them are intelligent people who have pure intentions. With all of this, I guess I am simply attempting to build a bridge. There are good NDs out there, trying to do things differently, and they're doing good work. So if you ever meet one, or have an opportunity to work with one, just know that most of them are competent, just like most MDs and DOs are competent.

 

[loris]

Why are we having a discussion with this joker?

Because as medical students and licensed MDs and DOs, we should be aware of the environment that we will be and/or are currently practicing in and that environment includes other professions that advertise themselves as healthcare providers. NDs have been actively campaigning across the country to increase their scope of practice. The Naturopathic students who have been slowly influencing and joining AMSA as affiliate members have also been continuously lobbying for full membership in the historically MD/DO student organization and they have been steadily gaining more ground (timeline w/ some quoted examples below).

- 03/16/09: Naturopathic Student Association Blog - AMSA Convention March 12-15, 2009:

“Each year, AMSA (the American Medical Student Association) holds its annual convention, which more than 1,000 MD, DO and premed students attend. In the last few years ND students have been attending these conventions, starting with just a mere few and reaching 9 students that attended last year’s conference. At this year’s convention, which was held in Washington D.C. March 12th-15th, we had 14 representatives from all four US accredited naturopathic colleges in attendance. […] At the moment naturopathic students are considered affiliate members in AMSA, as only MD/DO students can become medical student members. Working together with AMSA leadership, two resolutions were drafted which came before AMSA’s House of Delegates (HOD). The first resolution was full medical student membership rights and the other was the ability to run for and sit on Action Committees and Interest Groups. The full membership resolution did not pass, however the second resolution did pass and we can now serve as Action Committee leaders! This is a great achievement for naturopathic students. Not only can we now work along side out MD and DO colleagues to attain common goals, but we will also be educating our peers about our medicine. […] By becoming involved in an Action Committee, ND students will be able to provide input on topics of common interest and continue to educate our MD and DO colleagues about naturopathic medicine. We have one naturopathic student serving AMSA leadership: Adrian Chase (NCNM): Community and Environmental Health Action Committee.
In addition to Action Committees, AMSA has Interest Groups, which have been set up to educate medical students on topics not covered by the Action Committees. A Naturopathic Medicine Interest Group was set up in 2007. We now have 2 ND students serving on Interest Groups: Imani Owens-Bailey (SCNM): Preventative Medicine Interest Group Coordinator. Mark Davis (NCNM): Naturopathic Interest Group Coordinator. […]
Elections for action committees are held each year at AMSA’s National Convention, so stay tuned for next years convention announcement! Until then, fell free to contact our NMSA AMSA directors Hadas Hilewitz and Katie Stage or school AMSA reps and join the action committee list-serves (www.amsa.org). We encourage ND students to become members of AMSA, in addition to being a member of the NMSA. AMSA membership will benefit student by providing invitations to events, Institutes, Regional Meetings and the Annual Convention. Becoming a member also increases our interaction with other medical students and helps the future of medicine.”​

- 02/09/15: “Naturopathic Advocacy and Community Awareness Team – FB Page”:

“AMSA Has a Naturopathic Doctor Advisory Board (ND AB)!! Concurrent with the membership drive, the ND AB is now accepting applications for those interested in applying to become a member of the board! Here is the link to apply! Applications are being accepted through the end of March 31, 2015. Why join AMSA? It is IMPERATIVE that naturopathic medical students join AMSA this year! Why? Well, this year, the ND AB members put in a resolution into the AMSA House of Delegates (HOD), which, if passed as the AMSA Annual Convention at the end of February, would create a separate category of membership for ND students... something that naturopathic physicians who have gone before us have been asking for for over 10 years! In order to help the resolution pass, we need numbers! Right now, there are very few NMS members of AMSA.”​

- 02/16/15-02/20/15: AMSA Membership Drive Hosted by the NMSA - Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine Chapter, Scottsdale, AZ - FB Page

“IMPORTANCE OF THE AMSA MEMBERSHIP DRIVE THIS YEAR WITH REGARDS TO NM RESOLUTIONS. To everyone, again, it is IMPERATIVE that interested students join AMSA during the AMSA Membership Drive this year, as the numbers of joined NM students is being tracked for defense of a resolution in the AMSA House of Delegates (HOD) that creates a separate category of membership for NM students at this year's AMSA Convention, which is taking place at the end of this month. This resolution is a culmination of what NM students have been asking for for over 10 years. One of the original NM students who was involved in AMSA, Dr. Shidfar Rouhani, ND, DC, is now the physician advisor for the AMSA ND AB and is attending the convention in support of the ND AB and the resolutions. Please join today!”
​

- 03/10/15: “Naturopathic Students make Strides at the 2015 American Medical Student Association - Bastyr Website

“Naturopathic students attending the 65th National Convention for the American Medical Student Association (AMSA) in Washington, D.C. made positive strides this year, as the AMSA House of Delegates passed an amended resolution relating to the naturopathic profession. The C3 Naturopathic Medicine Principles Resolution updates AMSA's Preamble, Purposes and Principles to include principles regarding naturopathic medicine. […] Over the past decade, naturopathic medical students and doctors have petitioned to for more inclusion in AMSA. The amended and passed resolution paves the way for stronger ties between AMSA and the naturopathic profession. In a strong show of unity, students and faculty members from both of Bastyr University’s campuses attended the convention, along with students from other naturopathic medicine schools. Many thanks go to the student authors of the 2015 C3 resolution and kudos to the many doctors who have worked toward this aim in the past. We are getting there!”
​

- 03/17/15: Bastyr University - FB Page

"For the first time ever, the AMSA (American Medical Student Association) House of Delegates passed two critical resolutions in March 2015 that relate to the naturopathic profession:
The B3 Naturopathic Student Membership Resolution recognizes naturopathic medical students as an added AMSA membership category, rather than as “supporting affiliate members.”
The C3 Naturopathic Medicine Principles Resolution will update AMSA's Preamble, Purposes and Principles to include principles regarding naturopathic medicine."

From the Comments on this FB Post:
Commenter - "For one soon applying to school can someone explains how these changes affect recognition of the profession, please?" (March 17 at 2:37pm)
Bastyr University to Commenter - "It gives naturopathic medical students a stronger voice in the discussions within the medical community and could help influence state ND licensure efforts." (March 17 at 5:16pm)
​

 

[WingedOx]

At this point I don't know who ND Student is trying to convince... us or himself/herself.

 

[W19]

..

 

[loris]

Haha I glanced over the AMSA Naturopathic Doctor Advisory Board page and one of its sources. I'm being picky, but a few parts are reminiscent of reading a document written by a bunch of lawyers, politicians, or realtors; there are a few very subtle omissions, vague descriptions, tangents, and technically correct, but misleadingly phrased statements involved.

For example, in realtor speak this ad:

“This charming abode for the single buyer is overwhelmingly full of character and has a very long unique history. A perfect project home for someone who wants to explore their creative side.”​

Translates to this:

“This microscopic house with an incredibly bizarre floorplan and outdated decorating was built in the 1920’s. It was recently the site of an unsolved murder and was frequently used by squatters to manufacture meth. It’s currently being held together by hope and very frail duct tape and will require either a genius handyman or a dedicated contractor to make livable. Good luck.”​

From the AMSA ND Advisory Board FAQs:

“Do naturopathic physicians practice Evidence-Based Medicine?"
"Naturopathic Physicians utilize all available information including current research and case-studies, as well as clinical experience and factors relevant to each individual patient to help determine which treatments to recommend. Naturopathic physicians have the most comprehensive evidence-based ICAM training at the physician level upon graduation and serve as invaluable resources in the medical field.”​

Translation:

“Do naturopathic physicians practice Evidence-Based Medicine?"
"Note that we won’t just directly say yes, because the answer is ‘Not entirely.’ Naturopathic Physicians utilize ALL available information which includes information that may or may not be evidence based (e.g. the available information about homeopathy); however, at least some of the information that they use includes current research and case-studies. Some other information used by naturopaths can be vaguely described as ‘clinical experience and factors relevant to each individual patient to help determine which treatments to recommend;' this vaguely medical statement can be interpreted whichever way you feel is best, but it probably actually means things like ‘acupuncture’ and ‘homeopathy’ in addition to standard medical treatments and decision making. Their training does include a lot of the evidence-based body of ICAM, but 100% of their training and practice isn't evidence based (e.g. homeopathy).”​

 

[W19]

You should stop engaging with him. I know you're all enjoying your fun at his expense, and I know that he doesn't get the joke, but the perpetuation of this thread should probably end.

It has been the most active thread in the allo forum and I usually log in just to read it. I've had some fun reading the last couple of pages of this thread...

 

[TwinsFan]

The part about the NMSA organizing and endorsing inclusion on every level to the AMSA feels a little like strategic infiltration...

 

[IlDestriero]

The part about the NMSA organizing and endorsing inclusion on every level to the AMSA feels a little like strategic infiltration...

I'm not sure why they have any interest in including NDs at all. Student Physicians only, thanks.
That's worth looking into...

 

[loris]

The part about the NMSA organizing and endorsing inclusion on every level to the AMSA feels a little like strategic infiltration...

It is. A strong foothold in a political MD/DO organization gives them legitimacy and political bargaining power in the US legislature and elsewhere. As stated in that Bastyr University FB response to a commenter, the latest strengthening of their position in AMSA may help them gain licensing in more states. NDs are currently licensed or regulated in 17 states.

Working directly with AMSA, but not necessarily any other MD & DO physicians/associations, or ICAM providers/associations is also specifically mentioned as the job description for the NMSA Integrative Chair in the 2013-2014 NMSA leadership application.

"INTEGRATIVE MEDICINE CHAIR
- Coordinate American Medical Student Association (AMSA) and NMSA activities
- Communicate information to local AMSA representatives at each ND school
- Attend the AMSA Conference
-Represent the NMSA in a professional manner
- Receive direction from the VP of Legislation"

"VP OF LEGISLATION
- Communicate national and regional legislative efforts to the student bodies of all schools
- Coordinate the activities of local chapters’ Legislative Representatives
- Update legislative issues on the NMSA website
- Coordinate NMSA involvement in national legislative efforts
- Attend the AANP’s monthly alliance calls
- Attend pertinent legislative policy meetings to be determined by VP of Legislation"

 

[WingedOx]

You should stop engaging with him. I know you're all enjoying your fun at his expense, and I know that he doesn't get the joke, but the perpetuation of this thread should probably end.

Eh, I know MDs who work at a major academic center who (1), aren't aware of what NDs are and do (and don't), and (2) aren't even aware their own institution hires quacks for their "integrative medicine center". While disjointed at times, this thread has been a pretty good takedown of some frequently perpetuated bad ideas.

 

[Bryan O’Blivion]

I wholeheartedly agree that this thread lost its freshness a good while back, and I half apologize for perpetuating it like I've been doing. The thing is, depending on your region, you may not be aware of how pervasive this really is. Winged Ox is right, quackademic medicine is a real thing, I have had to sit through lectures by NDs in medical school, biting my tongue out of decorum, while they siad some pretty questionable things. I also think that Loris has done a pretty good job of demonstrating how the NMSA has been infiltrating AMSA, while at the same time perpetuating information from the supplement and disinformation industry by forwarding bogus articles from GreenMedInfo and NaturalNews. I think he's right, sharing organizations with MD/DOs is way to demonstrate equivalence and gain licensure. Since some people seem to think that NDs who attend "accredited" universities are going to have real medical training and behave responsibly with the public, I think it worth pointing out that this is not necessarily the case.

I agree, this is tired. But I don't think that it can be simply dismissed by ridicule. I am not sure what to do about it, but personally I plan to start collecting case reports of the incidents that I encounter with the names of the practitioners, dates seen, advice given, and so forth.

 

[IlDestriero]

I'm not even sure what AMSA is. When I was a student we were part of the AMA student section. That was the recognized medical student organization. Is this some rogue group? My medical school is definitely old guard, but they definitely didn't participate in this organization. I was in student leadership, I would have known.
Their leadership is a joke and the Chief Executive isn't even a physician, but is a marketing expert with an MBA and a history of frequent job changes. They claim to have 35000 members and 68000 in the Wikipedia page, including premeds? I'm skeptical. Very skeptical.
And I've never seen a copy of their New Physician magazine.

 

[WingedOx]

I'm not even sure what AMSA is

you don't want to know...

 

[Psai]

I wholeheartedly agree that this thread lost its freshness a good while back, and I half apologize for perpetuating it like I've been doing. The thing is, depending on your region, you may not be aware of how pervasive this really is. Winged Ox is right, quackademic medicine is a real thing, I have had to sit through lectures by NDs in medical school, biting my tongue out of decorum, while they siad some pretty questionable things. I also think that Loris has done a pretty good job of demonstrating how the NMSA has been infiltrating AMSA, while at the same time perpetuating information from the supplement and disinformation industry by forwarding bogus articles from GreenMedInfo and NaturalNews. I think he's right, sharing organizations with MD/DOs is way to demonstrate equivalence and gain licensure. Since some people seem to think that NDs who attend "accredited" universities are going to have real medical training and behave responsibly with the public, I think it worth pointing out that this is not necessarily the case.

I agree, this is tired. But I don't think that it can be simply dismissed by ridicule. I am not sure what to do about it, but personally I plan to start collecting case reports of the incidents that I encounter with the names of the practitioners, dates seen, advice given, and so forth.

Lmao your school has fake doctors lecturing you? You need to get a refund

 

[Bryan O’Blivion]

Lmao your school has fake doctors lecturing you? You need to get a refund

Yup. Like I said, it's more common than you might think. It's called CAM, or integrative medicine, or something. It was only an hour, and mostly harmless. But it's there.

Sure, AMSA isn't some particularly influential organization. But a lot of pre meds join it, and likely some med students as well. It doesn't impress a lot of practicing physicians, but that's not the point. The goal is swaying a legislator, not you.

How meaningful is all this? Can't say. But like I said, I see adverse effects of alt med more frequently than I would expect for an insignificant phenomenon.