What is your view of naturopathic doctors?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
It is. A strong foothold in a political MD/DO organization gives them legitimacy and political bargaining power in the US legislature and elsewhere. As stated in that Bastyr University FB response to a commenter, the latest strengthening of their position in AMSA may help them gain licensing in more states. NDs are currently licensed or regulated in 17 states.

Working directly with AMSA, but not necessarily any other MD & DO physicians/associations, or ICAM providers/associations is also specifically mentioned as the job description for the NMSA Integrative Chair in the 2013-2014 NMSA leadership application.

"INTEGRATIVE MEDICINE CHAIR
- Coordinate American Medical Student Association (AMSA) and NMSA activities
- Communicate information to local AMSA representatives at each ND school
- Attend the AMSA Conference
-Represent the NMSA in a professional manner
- Receive direction from the VP of Legislation"

"VP OF LEGISLATION
- Communicate national and regional legislative efforts to the student bodies of all schools
- Coordinate the activities of local chapters’ Legislative Representatives
- Update legislative issues on the NMSA website
- Coordinate NMSA involvement in national legislative efforts
- Attend the AANP’s monthly alliance calls
- Attend pertinent legislative policy meetings to be determined by VP of Legislation"

The degree of ND inclusion in AMSA reflects the degree of AMSAs acknowledgement of NDs. As NDs gain licensing, establish a required residency program, get Medicare inclusion (already have medicaid), and continue to refine/integrate their curriculums with the broader hc system, then their level of training and experience will be on par. DOs went through a similar process. It's all unfolding now.

Members don't see this ad.
 
The degree of ND inclusion in AMSA reflects the degree of AMSAs acknowledgement of NDs. As NDs gain licensing, establish a required residency program, get Medicare inclusion (already have medicaid), and continue to refine/integrate their curriculums with the broader hc system, then their level of training and experience will be on par. DOs went through a similar process. It's all unfolding now.
It reflects nothing more than recognizing another revenue source
 
  • Like
Reactions: 9 users
Yup. Like I said, it's more common than you might think. It's called CAM, or integrative medicine, or something. It was only an hour, and mostly harmless. But it's there.

Sure, AMSA isn't some particularly influential organization. But a lot of pre meds join it, and likely some med students as well. It doesn't impress a lot of practicing physicians, but that's not the point. The goal is swaying a legislator, not you.

How meaningful is all this? Can't say. But like I said, I see adverse effects of alt med more frequently than I would expect for an insignificant phenomenon.

Most physicians are good people who mean well. This has and will likely continue to hurt us politically.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
I starting to think ND Student is a troll...
Although my very first post stated otherwise, I can confirm that ND Student is a real, living breathing ND student; he's not just a random person or a MD/DO student who's trolling us.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Most physicians are good people who mean well. This has and will likely continue to hurt us politically.
They need to start opening their eyes... I was told the profession has been going downhill since the early 90s...
 
Last edited:
Although my very first post stated otherwise, I can confirm that ND Student is a real, living breathing ND student; he's not just a random person or a MD/DO student who's trolling us.
If he is not a troll, I think he definitely needs help...
 
The degree of ND inclusion in AMSA reflects the degree of AMSAs acknowledgement of NDs. As NDs gain licensing, establish a required residency program, get Medicare inclusion (already have medicaid), and continue to refine/integrate their curriculums with the broader hc system, then their level of training and experience will be on par. DOs went through a similar process. It's all unfolding now.

Except their model is nothing like ours. It requires a complete overhaul
 
They need to start opening their eyes... I was told the profession has been going downhill since the early 90s...

We had some issues that needed to be corrected: arrogance and bullying from physicians. We overshot, unfortunately. We are so afraid of offending others that we have let things get too far. We've empowered many to practice outside of their scope of training. The pendulum needs to swing back to a more middle ground place where doctors maintain a high level of professionalism while maintaining our positions as the leaders of the team and gatekeepers to ensure safe patient care.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 7 users
The degree of ND inclusion in AMSA reflects the degree of AMSAs acknowledgement of NDs. As NDs gain licensing, establish a required residency program, get Medicare inclusion (already have medicaid), and continue to refine/integrate their curriculums with the broader hc system, then their level of training and experience will be on par. DOs went through a similar process. It's all unfolding now.
They will never be on par. Don't delude yourself. You sound like the Militant CRNAs that run their national organization.
Know your limitations.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 9 users
Except their model is nothing like ours. It requires a complete overhaul
I’m not even sure that the Association of Accredited Naturopathic Medical Colleges (AANMC) actually thinks that they need to have residencies or make major curriculum changes even though their current training and curriculum are inadequately science-based and insufficiently thorough for practicing physicians. One of the sources that was cited by the AMSA ND Advisory Board FAQs page was a page about “Comparing the ND & MD Curricula” on the AANMC site and the AANMC’s understanding of the basic structure of the MD curriculum seems flawed. One of the AANMC’s main arguments is that ND students don’t need to complete residencies because during their 3rd and 4th year, they have “increasing opportunities for hands-on clinical training and practice, often at their schools’ teaching clinics and offsite clinics,” but that MD students do need to complete a residency because the AANMC falsely believes that MD students only observe clinical activities during all four years of med school. Contrary to the AANMC's beliefs, 3rd and 4th year in Allopathic programs definitely involve more than just passive observation (links for the ND student: Part 1 & Part 2); additionally, the students at many Allopathic medical schools start learning basic clinical skills during 1st and 2nd year when they are also free to start volunteering in community clinics. Either way, a residency should be required to practice.

Also note that the AANMC made it look like ND programs had far more clinical experience than MD programs in the bar graph by combining Clinical Training with Modality Training; the category of Modality Training includes the courses that cannot be compared to allopathic clinical training like homeopathy, botanical medicine, etc. Plus, contrary to what the AANMC was attempting to prove with numbers, if the total number of credit hours for the first two years of each program are nearly the same (150 vs. 151.5), then that doesn’t support the idea that the two programs are equivalent in terms of medical education/biomedical sciences. If ND programs also devote a significant number of their credits (N credits) to courses like botanical medicine and homeopathy, then ND students would have to take N+150 credits not 150 total credits in order to have a medical education that was equivalent to the MDs in terms of credit hours. It's an extraordinarily dumb argument. Anyhow, it’s probably worth it to read the page in its entirety.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I’m not even sure that the Association of Accredited Naturopathic Medical Colleges (AANMC) actually thinks that they need to have residencies or make major curriculum changes. One of the sources that was actually cited by the AMSA ND Advisory Board FAQs page was a page about “Comparing the ND & MD Curricula” on the AANMC site; the AANMC’s understanding of the basic structure of the MD curriculum seems flawed. One of the AANMC’s main arguments is that ND students don’t need to complete residencies because during their 3rd and 4th year, they have “increasing opportunities for hands-on clinical training and practice, often at their schools’ teaching clinics and offsite clinics,” but that MD students do need to complete a residency because MD students only observe clinical activities during all four years of med school. 3rd and 4th year in Allopathic programs definitely involve more than just passive observation (links for the ND student: Part 1 & Part 2); additionally, the students at my school start learning basic clinical skills during 1st and 2nd year when they are also free to start volunteering in community clinics. Either way, a residency should be required to practice.

Also note that the AANMC made it look like ND programs had far more clinical experience than MD programs in the bar graph by combining Clinical Training with Modality Training; the category of Modality Training includes the courses that cannot be compared to allopathic clinical training like homeopathy, botanical medicine, etc. Plus, contrary to what the AANMC was attempting to prove with numbers, if the total number of credit hours for the first two years of each program are nearly the same (150 vs. 151.5), then that doesn’t support the idea that the two programs are equivalent in terms of medical education/biomedical sciences. If ND programs also devote a significant number of their credits (N credits) to courses like botanical medicine and homeopathy, then ND students would have to take N+150 credits not 150 total credits in order to have a medical education that was equivalent to the MDs in terms of credit hours. It's an extraordinarily dumb argument. Anyhow, I posted most of the main excerpts below, but it’s probably worth it to read the page in its entirety.

"The first two years: a string science background"
“[...] During the first two years, ND students’ credit loads are almost identical to those of MD students. In nearly every biomedical science, ND students are required to complete as many credits as, if not more than, MD students. Specifics vary by school, but a 2010 course comparison of the University of Washington’s (UW) MD program and Bastyr University’s ND program shows that during the first two years, UW MD students complete a total of 150 credits and Bastyr ND students complete 151.5 credits, most of them in comparable biomedical and diagnostic science courses. […] While many conventional medical schools use a systems-based approach to medical education, most naturopathic medical programs currently do not. In a systems-based approach, anatomy, physiology, pathology and diagnostic skills are each taught individually for each body system (i.e., respiratory, digestive, nervous system, etc.). And although some ND schools may be moving toward a more systems-based approach to education, classes in a typical ND program are not divided by system, but rather focus on how a symptom in one part of the body may affect the patient’s entire anatomy and well-being. Some ND school curricula also begin clinical training during the first and second years, just as some MD school curricula initiate observational shifts at that time.”
"Third and fourth years: hands-on experience via clinical training"
"After the first two years, both ND and MD curricula focus on applying medical knowledge to real-life situations; simultaneous classroom studies support this training. Both curricula strive to maximize the synchronization of classroom and clinical training during these key years, thereby improving the quality and practicality of the students’ educations. However, it is during these later years that MDs’ educations begin to differ noticeably from those of NDs. MDs complete clerkships, which are courses in various medical specialties, and although MD students see plenty of patients during these clerkships, their roles are primarily observational: they are not primarily responsible for patient care. Third- and fourth-year ND students have increasing opportunities for hands-on clinical training and practice, often at their schools’ teaching clinics and off-site clinics, which offer diverse patient populations. This period of clinical training goes well beyond the observation and is absolutely essential to NDs’ educations – so much so that clinical training is now being introduced during the first and second years of education at several AANMC-member schools. As a result, naturopathic medical students graduate prepared to begin practice and to diagnose and treat patients, whereas MD students are required to complete residencies after graduation in order to gain clinical experience."
"Post-graduation: residencies and shadowing"
"Examining third- and fourth-year clinical training brings up another major difference: medical residencies. MD residencies are mandated and regulated by conventional medical schools. As a result, an abundance of such opportunities exist at a wide variety of medical facilities all across North America. Every graduate of conventional med school must expect to complete a post-graduation residency. Naturopathic residency opportunities, on the other hand, are not nearly as common because unlike conventional medical residencies, they are not yet required or funded by the federal government. Only 5 to 10 percent of new NDs participate in formally approved residency positions, all of which are associated with colleges approved as residency sponsors by the Council on Naturopathic Medical Education (CNME). There are some naturopathic residency opportunities available, and the naturopathic medical community is working to create more all the time, but such programs are not required (except in Utah). In place of a residency, many new NDs choose to practice with or shadow an experienced ND before setting up their own practices. […]
Primary care physicians. When examining a naturopathic medical curriculum, especially in comparison with that of a conventional medical school, remember this important differentiating factor: all future NDs are in training to become primary care physicians. In other words, a naturopathic medicine program is by definition a specialization in primary care – a field of medicine in extreme shortage in the US today. The majority of conventional med school students opt for careers in particular specialties and receive further training in specific areas, such as emergency medicine, major surgery or oncology. While ND curricula do cover such specialty subjects, they are not studied in depth. ND students learn to recognize the symptoms of diseases that may fall outside of their scope of practice (such as cancer) so that they can refer patients to specialists as appropriate. This is not to say that some NDs don’t go on to expand their educations and develop specialty areas post-graduation. But the focus in naturopathic med school is on learning to treat those diseases that fall within the realm of general practice."​

Too many words. Ain't nobody got time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Members don't see this ad :)
Too many words. Ain't nobody got time.
Haha okay. I only actually wrote the first two paragraphs; the other three were just quoted excerpts from a linked page on the AANMC site. I'll just edit it to leave my two paragraphs and cut out the excerpts.
 
It reflects nothing more than recognizing another revenue source

QFT.

AMSA just seems like one of those self-perpetuating blobs of an organization whose only reason for existence is is self-promotion. They'll never go away because they can always count on the naivety of a steady stream of students coming through every year either to score a free Netters or like my undergrad where they for some idiotic reason functioned as the default "pre-med club".
 
QFT.

AMSA just seems like one of those self-perpetuating blobs of an organization whose only reason for existence is is self-promotion. They'll never go away because they can always count on the naivety of a steady stream of students coming through every year either to score a free Netters or like my undergrad where they for some idiotic reason functioned as the default "pre-med club".
Some think being a member of AMSA will look good on their curriculum vitae...
 
Last edited:
@SouthernSurgeon : Thanks, coming from you, I consider that a real compliment. I have had my share of pointless post call ramblings, and if I look back at my post history, I have said a few things 3-4 years ago that I would disagree with now. Residency has taken me down a peg or two, for sure.

I have some real concerns about the expanding scope of practice of naturopathic medicine, and I am glad people take the time to hear my perspective. That being said, ND Student has been much nicer and more receptive to logic than others I've met (and/or exchanged messages with online).

As an aside, here is an older, but still (I think) pretty useful article about the nephrotoxic mechanisms of some popular supplements and vitamins, including vitamin C loading, which is used in some alt med protocols to fight infections instead of using antibiotics:
http://cjasn.asnjournals.org/content/2/4/757.full I think that it is something to be aware of.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
On a side note, I noticed something earlier. I’m not sure if this was just a poorly thought out mistake or if the graphic designer hired by the Association of Accredited Naturopathic Medical Colleges didn’t like Naturopaths.

The logo of the American Association of Medical Colleges is the one-snake Rod of Asclepius which is a symbol of Asclepius, the Greek god of healing and medicine. The logo of the Association of Accredited Naturopathic Medical Colleges on the other hand is the two-snake winged Caduceus which is a symbol of Hermes, the “messenger of the gods, guide of the dead and protector of merchants, shepherds, gamblers, liars, and thieves.”
logo-aamc.gif-data.gif
vs.
aanmc_logo.png

Relevant excerpt from Wikipedia:

“Despite widespread acceptance of the caduceus as a medical symbol in the United States, it has been observed that the rod of Asclepius has “the more ancient and authentic claim to be the emblem of medicine".[14] Most attempts to defend its use in a medical context date from the last quarter of the 19th century through the first quarter of the 20th, and have been characterized as "based on flimsy and pseudo-historical research".[6]

“In a survey of 242 logos used by organizations related to health or medicine, Friedlander found that professional associations were more likely to display the rod of Asclepius (62%), while organizations with a commercial focus were more likely to use the caduceus (76%). Hospitals were an exception (37% used a staff of Asclepius whereas 63% used a caduceus). Friedlander felt it likely that this might reflect the fact that "professional medical organizations have more often sought a real understanding of the meaning of the two symbols whereas commercial organizations have been less interested in the historical basis of their logo or insignia and more concerned with how well a certain symbol will be recognized by the iconographically unsophisticated audience they are trying to attract to their wares."[1]

“It has been observed that the caduceus is particularly inappropriate for use as a medical symbol due to its long associations with the Greek god Hermes, who was patron of commerce and traders as well as thieves, liars, and gamblers.[16]”
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
On a side note, I noticed something earlier. I’m not sure if this was just a poorly thought out mistake or if the graphic designer hired by the Association of Accredited Naturopathic Medical Colleges didn’t like Naturopaths.

The logo of the American Association of Medical Colleges is the one-snake Rod of Asclepius which is a symbol of Asclepius, the Greek god of healing and medicine. The logo of the Association of Accredited Naturopathic Medical Colleges on the other hand is the two-snake winged Caduceus which is a symbol of Hermes, the “messenger of the gods, guide of the dead and protector of merchants, shepherds, gamblers, liars, and thieves.”
logo-aamc.gif-data.gif
vs.
aanmc_logo.png

Relevant excerpt from Wikipedia:

“Despite widespread acceptance of the caduceus as a medical symbol in the United States, it has been observed that the rod of Asclepius has “the more ancient and authentic claim to be the emblem of medicine".[14] Most attempts to defend its use in a medical context date from the last quarter of the 19th century through the first quarter of the 20th, and have been characterized as "based on flimsy and pseudo-historical research".[6]

“In a survey of 242 logos used by organizations related to health or medicine, Friedlander found that professional associations were more likely to display the rod of Asclepius (62%), while organizations with a commercial focus were more likely to use the caduceus (76%). Hospitals were an exception (37% used a staff of Asclepius whereas 63% used a caduceus). Friedlander felt it likely that this might reflect the fact that "professional medical organizations have more often sought a real understanding of the meaning of the two symbols whereas commercial organizations have been less interested in the historical basis of their logo or insignia and more concerned with how well a certain symbol will be recognized by the iconographically unsophisticated audience they are trying to attract to their wares."[1]

“It has been observed that the caduceus is particularly inappropriate for use as a medical symbol due to its long associations with the Greek god Hermes, who was patron of commerce and traders as well as thieves, liars, and gamblers.[16]”
It actually started when the army medical corps started using the caduceus, everyone else just copied them.
 
It actually started when the army medical corps started using the caduceus, everyone else just copied them.
Yeah the Wikipedia article that I pulled the excerpt from is about the historical and current use of the caduceus as a symbol of medicine and it mentions how the U.S. Army originally made the mistake to use the caduceus instead of the rod of Asclepius. The original mistake is understandable since the U.S. Army Medical Corps adopted the caduceus in 1902, there was some confusion at the time, and the staffs look similar. A few old American copycats of the U.S. Army Medical Corps would also be understandable, but since the AANMC is an international association of medical schools that was established in 2001 and recently designed their logo, it was a poorly researched, but ultimately accurate and mildly entertaining choice. I mean, it only takes a 2 second Google search to know that you have the wrong symbol; the first line that pops up on the caduceus Wikipedia page is “This article is about the Greek symbol. For the usage as a medical symbol, see Caduceus as a symbol of medicine. For the medical symbol with one snake, often mistakenly referred to as a caduceus, see Rod of Asclepius.”

For comparison, here are the current logos of several other American and international medical organizations.
Caduceus:
- The American Association of Naturopathic Physicians
AANP.gif


Rod of Asclepius:

- World Health Organization
225px-Flag_of_WHO.svg.png

- Canadian Medical Association
280px-CMA_AMC.jpg

- American Medical Organization
ama-logo.png

- The American Academy of Family Physicians
Aafplogo.png

- American Osteopathic Association
logo-aoa.png

- Canadian Osteopathic Medical Student Association
logo.png

- Student Osteopathic Medical Organization
Student_Osteopathic_Medical_Association_logo.jpeg

- American Medical Student Association
amsa-small-logo.jpg
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
Top