What it takes to be a physician.

[Gregory Gulick]

I know there's been a lot of talk here recently about grades vs. compassion and so forth. Well, I learned something interesting yesterday that I thought I would share with the group.

My grandparents (both in their 80s) were recently involved in a hit-and-run accident. They were in their car at a stoplight and some young guy plowed into them quite hard from behind. The guy who hit them immediately sped off leaving the accident. My grandfather, thankfully, was okay. My grandmother, being quite frail, sustained injuries to her head and neck (severe headaches, nausea, and occasional loss of consciousness). For the past two weeks she's been seeing a neurologist without much success.

The interesting conclusion to the story is this: There was a woman on the corner who witnessed the ordeal. She penciled down the guy's license plate and they caught him last week. It turns out the guy is an M.D. student here at the local state university.

It occurred to me: we have truly have no means to assess the quality of ANY medical school applicant. Undoubtedly, this student must be intelligent and posess good numbers like everyone else. But in my opinion, his seat in that medical school is wasted. His lack of responsibility for his own actions disqualifies him from being responsible for others. It is entirely possible that someday he might possess the knowledge of HOW to practice good medicine, but lack the ethics and values to put that knowledge to proper use.

I guess it is more than intelligence and much more than compassion. Applicants must also posess proper ethics and values if they are going to facilitate any form of healing. How do we assess these qualities, or can we?

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[HeatherR]

Is hit-and-run a felony or just a misdemeanor? If it is a felony he may just lose his seat at the medical school (his knowing this is probably what prompted him to leave the scene in the first place). Many medical schools have guidelines that allow them to dismiss students based on criminal behaviour even if it is unrelated to the practice of medicine. I have heard of medical students being dismissed for rape and drug trafficking. If I were you, I would write to the Dean of the medical school and inform them of what their student did and demand that he be dismissed or reprimanded.
As medical students we should all be aware that our actions reflect not only on ourselves, but also on our school and our profession, and we must learn to carry ourselves accordingly. It may not be fair, but as physicians, and future physicians we will always be under public scrutiny.

 

[Eric Ryan]

Heather,
It would not have been a felony by hit-and-run, if he had not run, so this did not affect the driver's decision. Further, if he had any morals and ethics (as Gregory mentioned) he would have stopped to see if the other persons involved in the accident were ok, despite the fact that he would be held accountable.
I agree that there needs to be some sort of ethical/moral sreecning tool (perhaps a battery of pychological tests?), however, anyone with the apparent intellect (GPA, MCAT, etc.) to be considered for admission into a medical university, will know the right answers to questions posed, and will mostly likely be suave enough to put on a good performance for the interview personnel.

 

[Henry]

Waht, I thought hit and run is a serious crime and should be a falony. Definitely, that med student don't deserve to be a doctor.

If he ever become a doc, he will always to things to cover his own @$$. Imagine you may become his colleague one day, are you scare?

 

[DOGBOY]

Why don't I write to NOVA and ask that Henry be dismissed for making ridiculous comments and Greg be dismissed for being annoying. Obviously this kid made a mistake. It is possible he panicked after the event. He did make the situation for himself worse but shouldn't we try to hear his side of the story before deciding that his spot in school is wasted. People do make mistakes and he should have to pay but at least listen before you throw him out of school. This is just what i expected from you guys. You are so nice and friendly to everyone but as soon as someone does anything you think is wrong you swoop down like a vulture to devour whatever is left. Don't comment on someones livliehood before you know all the facts.

 

[DOGCATCHER]

Well DOGBOY,

I think that you should be neutered because I FEEL (remember, its my opinion) that it would be devastating if you were allowed to procreate. Also, from what I understand, dogs tend to be calmer after being neutered.

dogcatcher

 

[DOGBOY]

Maybe I will have rabies and bite you so you can start foaming at the mouth and die an extremely painful and disgraceful death. This site blows chunks. The majority of you are back-stabbing *****s and I fully expect you will always be that way. It's OK if Gullick says kick someone out of school and he shouldn't have been admitted in the first place. I especially like how he mentioned he was a dreaded MD student. A DO student would never do that. However if DOGBOY says hear his side of the story before dismissing him from medical school and ruining his future I get comments from dogcatcher. This is why i respond the way I do and by the way do you really think I would attend NOVA. Please. One final comment before I leave. 'old man dave' will jump the proverbial osteopathic ship if he is accepted into allopathic school. So although some may choose DO school first most of us are using it as a backup and maybe people shouldn't be so scared to say that. What's the big deal. I hope most of you fail miserably in your attempt to become physicians. For the normal people good luck

 

[VM]

DOGBOY,
Are you leaving us? Say it isn't so. Sometimes I don't agree with you, sometimes I do, but I for one feel that you are entitled to your opinions. Right or wrong, we can count on you to tell it like you see it.

 

[mevannorden]

Imust admit that the initial story has little relevance. That person could just as easily have been a DO student. Like DOGBOY said, it's entirely possible he freaked. Although I don't think I would ever leave the scene of an accident, you never know until you're in that person's shoes. By no means are the person's actions excused, but it's not right to ruin the guy's career without having all the facts. Also, food for thought: What if the driver was borrowing the car, and it wasn't the MD student afterall? YOu just never know.

 

[lala]

I agree with DOGBOY. Reading some of these posts here is scary. The mindless devotion that some of you people have to osteopathic medicine is frightening. Think for yourselves! It seems like you guys will go along with anything that the AOA puts out or anything that Gregory says. You guys are like the Party members in Orwell's book, Nineteen Eightyfour, where Gregory is Big Brother. You just repeat and agree with anything that people feed you. Like little ducks that speak with only their voice boxes and not their brains. For the love of God, read Nineteen Eightyfour and learn to think for yourselves. Have your own opinion about something!

 

[2003]

Wow, who can resist? Dogboy is a *cringe* good devil's advocate. Plain and simple, he always looks at the other side (which often has merit). In Gregory's defense, he said that we didn't have the capability to assess the quality of any medical school applicant (I believe that includes DO and MD students).

The issue is whether this individual (you can pretend he is in DO school if you like) deserves to be in medical school. Obviously, his side of the story is needed. Regardless, Dogboy, I find it hard to think of any excuse that would make his actions excusable. If I was Dean of his school I'd look at his record before this incident -- if clean, I'd probably let him continue (under a magnifying glass and after a long, serious discussion). Some people need to learn things the hard way before they really learn them and, maybe (I hope), this med student has learned how to be responsible for his actions. If not, he'll be out before long.

 

[DOPhD student]

Dogboy and sympathizers, I'm usually a nice guy, but I am really sick of your stupidity. Read the post. Gregory never mentioned anything about being MD students being malevolent in general or the importance of that student's being in an MD school. Read closely you *****s. What Gregory said is that it would be difficult to assess the character of medical students, not MD student. There is no blatant or concealed attack of the MD profession so I don't know where you *****s get this idea that people are attacking you personally. You should be so lucky that people give a damn about what you want to do with your lives as we are too busy with our own lives to care about yours, and that's the truth. Who cares where you go to medical school dogboy? I certainly don't. And lala, who cares what you think? Complain and whine all you want. I don't know about anyone else, but this is one DO student who's sick of hearing about your opinion. Now SHUT UP. Enough of Mr. Nice Guy. I may be nice but also smart enough to know enough is enough. Good riddance to you detractors. Be gone.

 

[DOGBOY]

It is nice to hear someone finally speak their mind although again it still goes back to if I don't like what I hear you must leave. Just ignore me DOPhd. However it is nice to finally see a DO show some backbone.

 

[Gregory Gulick]

Well, so much for having an intellectual discussion about assessing the ethics and values of medical school applicants. If this were an MCAT question, only 2003 and DOPhD would have gotten it correct. The rest of you read what you WANTED to read: that it was an M.D. vs D.O. issue or an issue about punishing this possible felon who hurt an innocent person (and you sympathized with him?!). Both of these issues were completely irrelevant to the intended discussion of assessing ANY medical school applicant.

I apologize to those of you that once used this site to honestly share your thoughts and concerns with peers. I realize that it is difficult to do so when the anonymity this site allows is abused by persons who cowardly use that anonymity to put out nasty, hateful opinions they would unlikely share with us were they required to OWN these opinions. May I recommend that you consider subscribing to the Student Doctor listserve at www.studentdoctor.com ? This list is composed predominantly of practicing D.O.s, but premeds are welcome to ask any questions they might have about the profession.

 

[OldManDave]

DOGBOY,

First, I must grant you that you have a valid point...yes, the med students side must be known prior to any conviction. However, you completely missed the impetus of Gregory's story...Can we truly and accurately assess an individual's capacity to become an effective physician? We have debated in numerous place the merits of one system over the other...and reached no cogent conclusion. Could the answer actually lie in the absence of an answer?

However, as usual, you ruined your very valid point with your coarse delivery. People wouldn't descend 'like vultures' if you weren't so prone to attacking posters for typos and grammatical errors. It is sad that someone who is obviously intelligent and articulate causes themselves to be over-looked simply because they can't be respectful of others.

Yes, you have a right to your opinions, as we have a right to ours. You also have free reign to constructively comment or critique any and all posts...BUT, you don't have the right to attack people, like it or not, nor does anyone have the right to attack you. As irritating as it is, by returning his shots, we incite his behaviour. We are perpetuating our own problem by engaging in his verbal foil and parry.

As for your cheap shot trying to get me into the fray...I considered not even justifying it with a response; but you are completely wrong. I have no intentions of choosing an allopathic program over KCOM. I would thank you to refrain from shaking the 'rumor tree' in the future.

Greg, my symapthies and best wishes for your grand-parents. I hope they recover completely and quickly.

As for the med student, if he/she is repsonsible...I hope they learn something from this incident.

------------------
'Old Man Dave'
KCOM, Class of '03

 

[Henry]

Dogboy, my comment is not killing someone here and my Dean will not dismiss me for sure. So don't you worry.

Leaving the scene of an accident is like leave your patient unattended and allow your patient to suffer and die. Panick is not an excuse for him to leave 2 HUMAN BEINGS at the accident scene. He doesn't even bother to call for help.


Personally, I can't work with people that act irresponsively. There is no excuse for a going-to-be-doc to have such kind of behavior.


By the way, if my Dean is going to kick me out of school, definitely he will not be very happy letting you into the door of NOVA.

 

[matt s]

While not getting into the darker aspects of this thread, I think that as a future doctor Greg has a duty to his collegues to report this behavior to the school. In his letter to the dean he should be forthright and honest, cast no allegations just state the facts. The reason for this is simple, most people are willing to give others the benefit of the doubt for a simple mistake. If however there are multiple mistakes that form a pattern then action should be taken.By his alleged actions, this student has indicated a lack of responsibility. Do you want that quality in a doctor? In this case the letter from greg should be added to med students file so that if an incident occurs later it will be taken into account. On a further note what this student is alleged to have done is a crime, one that injured others and which he took no responsiblity for.
Well that is my two cents worth.

Matt

 

[VM]

lala, what are YOU talking about? Most of us here do think for ourselves. I certainly do. And no, I don't blindly believe in everything Gregory or anyone else in the osteopathic medical profession "dishes" out. I don't think that the majority of the other posters do either. Give us more credit than that. Gregory, sorry about your grandparents. DOGBOY, you brought up a valid point about not ruining this guy's career before knowing all the facts. IF he did do this, it needs to be addressed. I did not take it that Gregory meant anything about stating that the student was an MD. It was just a fact. If he state it was a female would you think that he is stating something about all females. Many of you read between the lines and see what you want to see. Maybe I'm wrong, only Gregory can answer this. Also, DOGBOY, I thought you WERE going to Nova.

 

[NickCVM]

I personaly think that DOGBOY will end up going to a school like CMS.
Greg, I hope your gran' ma does ok.
later
--Nicolas--
WesternU'03

 

[DOGBOY]

Show me one place where I attacked Henry for spelling or grammar. I said he makes ridiculous comments at times, that doesn't mention anything about his command of English.

By the way what school is CMS and why would I end up there?

If you have no intention of going to MD school I apologize and wish you well at KCOM.