What % of your Class Doing General Surgery?

[makatak]

We started out about a month ago with about 17 or 18 out of 140-160 in the 4th year class. Now I think there is less than 10! @#@#$ maybe even about 7 total.

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[woundvac]

10%

 

[unregistered]

Last year no one in my entire medical school class of ~100 went for general surgery. Although a few ended up scrambling for gen surg positions after the didn't match in more competative specialties.

 

[makatak]

The irony, well perhaps not, is that the ones who have left are "better" students and are trending toward radiology (3 of them), optho, anesthesia, ER.

 

[Mirror Form]

Originally posted by makatak
The irony, well perhaps not, is that the ones who have left are "better" students and are trending toward radiology (3 of them), optho, anesthesia, ER.

well if you're a good enough student to get into one of the more competitive fields, you'd have to be smoking crack to go into general surgery (especially over the surgical subspecialties) unless you were planning on doing a fellowship which is a long road. There are so many cons to gen surg and the pro's keep diminishing. Although if the 80 hour work week pans out, more people will probably want to go into it.

 

[idoc]

Originally posted by Sledge2005
well if you're a good enough student to get into one of the more competitive fields, you'd have to be smoking crack to go into general surgery (especially over the surgical subspecialties)

Now that's just the village idiot talking there. This idea presupposes that you think the least talented people should be steered into the most challenging fields & vice versa.

 

[makatak]

I agree Idoc,
But it does seem to be that way. There was a 20/20 special on residencies, and one of the program directors mentioned that the most competitive applicants are leaning toward the least challenging/risky fields such as general surgery and obgyn. it's unfortunate.

 

[makatak]

(repeat)
I agree Idoc,
But it does seem to be that way. There was a 20/20 special on residencies, and one of the program directors mentioned that the most competitive applicants are leaning toward the least challenging/risky fields, away from general surgery and obgyn. it's unfortunate.

 

[trauma_junky]

80 hour work week starts getting enforced, I'll do it! If not, I don't know.

 

[Mirror Form]

Originally posted by idoc
Now that's just the village idiot talking there. This idea presupposes that you think the least talented people should be steered into the most challenging fields & vice versa.

You said that, not me. I definitely don't think that general surgery is any more challenging then other surgical fields except sometimes in terms of sleep deprivation and a poor lifestyle.

What I meant was, what's the point of going into GS, when you can go into another surgical area and still get to operate, while also making more money, having a better lifestyle, and not even having to be tortured for five years to get there? Most applicants have decided there is no point, which is why the surgical subspecialties are so competitive and GS isn't.

I don't mean to talk down to anybody doing GS. Some people do take pride in it and you if like the field then that's perfect. But I think most people who simply want to operate find the surgical subspecialties more attractive.

 

[makatak]

Sledge,
I agree with you. I am choosing general surgery because I want the broad training that GS gives you. Broad is a dying attribute nowadays, but it's still what I want.

Unfortunately, GS due to money and hours can not compete with other more competitive and specialized fields.

 

[Foxxy Cleopatra]

I could go on and defend why I don't think the "best and brightest" always necessarily pursue the most competitive fields, but I don't feel like beating a dead horse. I just don't like blanket statements/assumptions. In my case, if you want to operate on the abdomen, general surgery is what you have to do. ENT, ophtho, urology may make better money and have a nicer lifestyle, but I can't do what I really want if I took one of those paths.

 

[Teufelhunden]

Originally posted by Foxxy Cleopatra
I could go on and defend why I don't think the "best and brightest" always necessarily pursue the most competitive fields, but I don't feel like beating a dead horse.

Foxxy, I'm curious on this issue, so go ahead...beat the dead horse for a little while (or refer me to a previous thread that explains where you're coming from on this.)

It does seem that the best & brightest are steering towards the ultra-competitive fields. It's actually very confusing to me...why does Derm get the best and brightest? Nothing against Derm, but why would a field like Derm require any more brains than GS or IM?

I know this isn't always the case...there's an FP resident at my hospital that has the reputation of being "off-the-charts smart" - supposedly scored >95% on all his boards. So, there are exceptions...

I just don't understand how certain fields became so much more exclusive than others. I mean, I understand it's a #s game, and that lifestyle is everything now...but it just seems wrong to me that certain fields siphon off the cream of the crop, while other fields take what's left over. Again, does derm, optho and rads really require more intelligence than IM, GS or FP? In general, which of your doctors would you rather make a mistake, your dermatologist or your surgeon?

Don't get me wrong, either...I'm by no means even close to being the "best and brightest"...my 51% COMLEX 1 score has already eliminated my from the ultra-competitve residencies.

 

[md03]

Of my class last year (160 grads) 21 went into gen surg. Add 7 ortho, 4 ENT, and 3 neurosurg (4 ophtho).

It's not that the "best and brightest" are steered into specific fields. It's just that some fields have evolved to be so competitive that you can only the "best and brightest" can match in those fields. I had strong enough numbers to pursue any specialty, and I chose GS because I LIKE IT. Like FC said, if you want to operate on the abdomen, GS is the only option. I could not imagine choosing a surgical field where I cannot operate on the abdomen.

A number of my class "best and brightest" chose IM. Why? Because they like it. The "best and brightest" tend to wind up in the more competitive fields because they have more options. I know a number of folks who decided they wanted to do derm, for example but wound up in IM because they didn't have the numbers to match in derm.

 

[Thewonderer]

My take on why the brightest goes into the most competitive subspecialities is "prestige" and "money."

The type of people who go into medicine are the type that wants the most prestige or reputation (and often confuse that with excellent education). Just go to the premed part of SDN. Or look into yourself 4 years earlier. Everybody (or almost everybody) wanted a shot at Harvard and Hopkins med. People even go to the extent of saying that my med school is ranked top 30 as opposed top 40 (like that makes a difference).

If you are AOA, are you going to swallow the fact that you will go into psych or general surgery even if your interests lie in either of those two? Most likely not, with the type of person who enter the profession of medicine in general. This can also be seen in the hierarchy of the hospital and in attendings who compare how many papers they each publish per year.

And of course, there is the money. People can always knock the cons of your specialty, but once you start mentioning your paycheck, that can usually shut other people's mouths up.

This is just human nature.

 

[Mirror Form]

Originally posted by Thewonderer
If you are AOA, are you going to swallow the fact that you will go into psych or general surgery even if your interests lie in either of those two? Most likely not, with the type of person who enter the profession of medicine in general. This can also be seen in the hierarchy of the hospital and in attendings who compare how many papers they each publish per year.

I don't think people will avoid a field just b/c it's easy to get into. You can always apply to mass general and hopkins, which are tough to get into and very prestigious for fields like IM and general surg. Of the AOA people in my med school class, I don't know any planning on doing general surgery. This is probably b/c most third year medical students haven't yet really developed a special interest in any types of surgeries, and therefore the subspecilaties are the obvious choices b/c of the better lifestyle, money, and training.

 

[LaCirujana]

Originally posted by Thewonderer


If you are AOA, are you going to swallow the fact that you will go into psych or general surgery even if your interests lie in either of those two? Most likely not, with the type of person who enter the profession of medicine in general.

Of the people in my class (100 people total) that were AOA, 3 went into general surgery, 3 went into IM, 2 went into family practice, 1 went into Peds, 1 went into Med/Peds. The others went into more competitive stuff, but really, I think people will go into the specialties that they like, assuming that they are able to match into them, rather than going for something competitive just because they can.

 

[womansurg]

Originally posted by Thewonderer
If you are AOA, are you going to swallow the fact that you will go into psych or general surgery even if your interests lie in either of those two?

I'm curious, what program are you affiliated with that the general surgery residents are so substandard? Almost all of the residents at my program were AOA, and I was at a virtually unheard of community program.

Trust me, general surgery is full of people who had stats to do whatever their hearts desired - and they desired surgery. It's the most fascinating branch of medicine there is; there's nothing else like it.

Don't mistakenly assume that because people are afraid of the gen surg residency that bright, talented people don't find surgery interesting. In fact, many who choose surgical subspecialties over general surgery will readily admit that they did so simply as a way to avoid the arduous training of a GS residency while still staying within the surgical disciplines.

 

[womansurg]

Originally posted by pba
not true, womansurg.

i wanted to do general surgery because i wanted to work with others who were just as stupid and lazy as me.

pba

Oftentimes your posts are sort of nonsensical in that trying-to-be-purposefully-obtuse-and-misunderstood-so-hopefully-you'll-think-I'm-really-smart way.

But this one...I don't know...

-ws out

 

[unregistered]

Womansurg - what is that picture in you avitar? Is that a snapshot from you last vacation to the bahamas or what?

 

[Foxxy Cleopatra]

Originally posted by Teufelhunden
Foxxy, I'm curious on this issue, so go ahead...beat the dead horse for a little while (or refer me to a previous thread that explains where you're coming from on this.)

There are some people that may be "brilliant" for whatever that means (very high board scores, grades) who happen to really like something like IM or surgery. Things like anesthesia and rads are great, needed specialties but I'd rather work 120 hours a week doing something I like than 8 hours a day doing something where I am looking at the clock every 5 minutes.

Plus, I always found the "who is smarter than who" arguments in medical school to be silly, when people walk around thinking they are better with their 250 on the boards than the guy next to them with a 245. Most of us are pretty academically competent last time I checked.

I realize that the more competitive programs and specialties do have higher board score/grade standards, but all I think it does is foster the cutthroat tendencies and insecurities that are rampant in overacheivers whom an intelligence gradient is really trivial. This is something that I think medine would be better off without.

 

[md03]

Amen, FC!!!!

 

[Crypt Abscess]

In my class of 200, there are only about 12-15 students applying to GS. Of that number, two are AOA, and there are several in that group who are bottom of the class- just goes to show that there are great candidates and not so great candidates (who I wouldn't let operate on my dog) that apply to every field. During third year there were >30 students interested in Surgery, but this quickly changed after their Surgery clerkship, as now surgery subspecialties are very popular in my class. Is this a general trend?

 

[dr.evil]

I've finally realized why medicine pisses me off so bad. It's not the paperwork, the bureaucracy, or even the thankless, unemployed crack addict who comes in at 3am with a GSW to the leg (where did these guys learn to shoot a gun?).

It's the total petiness and "who's penis is bigger" mentality of everyone in medical school and beyond. I really thought this would subside in residency, and it has a little, but it's very prevalent. I thought that doctors would be a bit more professional and acknowledge that making it through medical school usually guaranteed a certain level of intelligence. But there continues to be the same old crap. Who's residency is higher ranked, who scored higher on their ABSITE by 5%, who was AOA, who wasn't AOA, who did Family Practice even though they were AOA!...?

This gets so annoying. I could care less if the top quartile of the class does general surgery, psychiatry, dermatology, or whatever. People need to quit choosing their future on ego and pick what they won't mind doing for 40 years.

I'm just ranting. I love general surgery and hate that someone out there thinks it is suddenly sub-standard because the match rates have struggled the last few years. What a horrendous way to assess a specialty. Why not assess the specialty on the interactions you have from those subspecialists?

Maybe the programs elsewhere have brought down the view of general surgery, but not at mine. We and ortho continue to be top dogs at our facility (or at least we think we are ).

I'm tired

 

[womansurg]

Originally posted by dr.evil
It's the total petiness and "who's penis is bigger" mentality of everyone in medical school and beyond.

My penis is bigger.

 

[womansurg]

Originally posted by pba
kind of like a crack-***** eating ice chips.

pba

yeah, exactly like that