What Percentage of Ivy-League Pre-Meds Succeed at Getting into Med School?

[qwopty99]

just curious here on people's opinions/experiences with this subject. and let's two-tier it.

of those who are Harvard/Princeton/Yale - they were obviously outstanding HS students before getting there - what percentage of those pre-meds eventually become MDs? do they essentially ALL get in somewhere at some point?

what percentage of Premeds from the "other" Ivys (Columbia, UPenn, Brown, Dartmouth, Cornell) get in? are most of them virtual locks for med school admissions since they too were (many of them anyways) mostly outstanding in HS?

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[dara678]

there are a TON of other good schools that aren't ivies .... such as Duke, University of Chicago, Stanford, Wash U, Northwestern, etc ... and I'm pretty sure that if you are a qualified student, you'll get into med school no matter where you go to school for undergrad.

i really don't see how ivies need to be put on a pedestal above other schools ....

 

[dara678]

there are a TON of other good schools that aren't ivies .... such as Duke, University of Chicago, Stanford, Wash U, Northwestern, etc ... and I'm pretty sure that if you are a qualified student, you'll get into med school no matter where you go to school for undergrad.

i really don't see how ivies need to be put on a pedestal above other schools ....

 

[MarzMD]

http://www.aas.duke.edu/trinity/prehealth/appendix/

 

[qwopty99]

thanks Marz,

that's the kind of data i was thinking of. 89.1% acceptance rate for seniors into medical school - that's nuts.

as for dara,

i wasn't trying to imply that outstanding students don't exist at other universities, or that other schools aren't outstanding. i was just merely asking about what people knew about the acceptance rate for Pre-med students at the Ivys. u mention that if u are qualified for med school at another school, u'll get in. so the point of my question is essentially, what percentage of pre-meds at Ivys are "qualified" for med school.

 

[EctopicFetus]

I went to penn and not to bad mouth duke but thats grade inflation heaven.. Or at least it was..

Those stats are a bit of a misnomer. Early on like 1/3 of classes are filled with pre-meds then self selection happens and only the cream of the crop applies and most get in....

 

[MarzMD]

Just keep in mind that at least 3 times that number started out as premed. Many people get weeded out during the process, and come senior year only the most qualified and/or most dedicated end up applying. A lot of my friends realized that all you needed to do was pick an easy major, get good grades, and you are in good shape to get into a good law school.

 

[kirexhana]

thanks Marz,

that's the kind of data i was thinking of. 89.1% acceptance rate for seniors into medical school - that's nuts.

as for dara,

i wasn't trying to imply that outstanding students don't exist at other universities, or that other schools aren't outstanding. i was just merely asking about what people knew about the acceptance rate for Pre-med students at the Ivys. u mention that if u are qualified for med school at another school, u'll get in. so the point of my question is essentially, what percentage of pre-meds at Ivys are "qualified" for med school.

well, i dunno about that. it doesn't really answer your question about pre-meds, because the statistic about duke doesn't include all the pre-meds. it only includes applicants, which can very well be the ones who are pretty confident that they are qualified enough for med school. the premed population of a school is something else entirely.

 

[MarzMD]

I went to penn and not to bad mouth duke but thats grade inflation heaven.. Or at least it was..

Those stats are a bit of a misnomer. Early on like 1/3 of classes are filled with pre-meds then self selection happens and only the cream of the crop applies and most get in....

Grade inflation heaven?????? While it may be damn near impossible to fail a class at Duke, having a "generous" curve set at a C+/B- average is not exactly easy to compete on. Ive never heard people claim Duke had grade inflation, thats a new one. If you look at the avg. gpa of accepted students from duke, its lower than the national average....but the mcat score is higher.

 

[lowbudget]

I too went to Penn. We do pretty well getting people into med school with numbers similar to Duke's.

http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/gradprof/healthprof/premed/choosing_ugrad.html

 

[jebus]

I too went to Penn. We do pretty well getting people into med school with numbers similar to Duke's.

http://www.vpul.upenn.edu/careerservices/gradprof/healthprof/premed/choosing_ugrad.html

Ok, so I hate SDN now but then I saw your username and I saw you live in Philly and I love hollertronix and that jawn.

the end.

 

[qwopty99]

i see people's points about the applicant pool not being particularly "representative" of the entire pre-med class. i stated in my second posting above, the following:

-->so the point of my question is essentially, what percentage of pre-meds at Ivys are "qualified" for med school?

i guess that's a "better" question. someone above mentioned that perhaps only 1/3 of the Duke class would apply - so for Duke, about 1/3 are thus "qualified" (since 89.1% of them got in). how does this ratio rate at HYP? at darmouth/brown?

are there students who get into HYP (or non-Ivy equivalent eg. Stanford) intending to go to med school, but end up pulling really bad marks to the point that their med school dreams don't realize? or is the population there just too good to begin with, that essentially no one ends up in that predicament. what about dartmouth/brown (or Duke or non-Ivy equivalent)?

i'm not an american and don't know many ivy-leaguers, so i really don't know the answre to these questions.

 

[Rafa]

are there students who get into HYP intending to go to med school, but end up pulling really bad marks to the point that their med school dreams don't realize? or is the population there just too good to begin with, that essentially no one ends up in that predicament. what about dartmouth/brown?

i'm not an american and don't know many ivy-leaguers, so i really don't know the answre to these questions.

it's more or less the same at every college here. the majority of students who start out as premeds do not go on to be premeds. the ivies aren't an exception to this.

 

[notdeadyet]

OP- You're not going to get any worthwhile data on this, regardless of the source. The best you can get is the acceptance rate for students who are applying for medical school during their undergraduate years.

This is a small subset. More and more students are pursuing a Master's, the peace corps, or just plain working for a year or two before applying to medical school. These students would not be counted in any application/acceptance percentages.

 

[MarzMD]

OP- You're not going to get any worthwhile data on this, regardless of the source. The best you can get is the acceptance rate for students who are applying for medical school during their undergraduate years.

This is a small subset. More and more students are pursuing a Master's, the peace corps, or just plain working for a year or two before applying to medical school. These students would not be counted in any application/acceptance percentages.

The link I provided had reapplicant data as well as alumni applicants, so it should be a start. Still not completely sure what the OP intends to gain from this data though....but a class at Duke is about 1400-1600 students. Only 119 applied in 2005.

 

[Donkey Hote]

just curious here on people's opinions/experiences with this subject. and let's two-tier it.

of those who are Harvard/Princeton/Yale - they were obviously outstanding HS students before getting there - what percentage of those pre-meds eventually become MDs? do they essentially ALL get in somewhere at some point?

what percentage of Premeds from the "other" Ivys (Columbia, UPenn, Brown, Dartmouth, Cornell) get in? are most of them virtual locks for med school admissions since they too were (many of them anyways) mostly outstanding in HS?

From my own personal experience...just go to an Ivy (or Stanford, Duke...you know the list) and you'll get into medical school...not to say that you will do well. We have quite a few in my fourth year class at my mid-tier medical school, and they seem to have their problems. (2 not advancing for academic reasons)

So, if I was to "tier it" as you say for preparedness for medical school/preformance in medical school, I would instead list it...

tier 1: UC grads (no grade inflation, ridiculous competition among premeds)

tier 2: Big state schools, some privates: U Mich, U of Washington, U Wisconsin, Mizzou, Notre Dame, Northwestern, Emory, Rice...

tier 3: Ivy's, Stanford (anywhere with grade inflation), small privates with no competition

Im not even joking...it's true...but anyways, congrats at being at a super-dooper ivy league school. You'll probably get into medical school, hopefully not taking the place of someone more qualified who worked harder for their non-inflated grades.

 

[qwopty99]

From my own personal experience...just go to an Ivy (or Stanford, Duke...you know the list) and you'll get into medical school...

thanks DH - this is kinda what i was getting at. personal anecdotes might be the only way to go here. same with Rafa's comments here that express a differing opinion:

"it's more or less the same at every college here. the majority of students who start out as premeds do not go on to be premeds. the ivies aren't an exception to this."

lastly, i wasn't asking which undergrads prepare u the best for meds - i was just merely asking the question that is answered by the replies above.

 

[riceman04]

I went to penn and not to bad mouth duke but thats grade inflation heaven.. Or at least it was..

Those stats are a bit of a misnomer. Early on like 1/3 of classes are filled with pre-meds then self selection happens and only the cream of the crop applies and most get in....

And Penn is not grade inflation heaven?????....hahahaha that's funny!!!!!!

 

[snobored18]

tier 3: small privates with no competition

Hahaha...you won't be saying that when a top 20 LAC grad is kicking your ass next year...seriously though many of the top liberal arts colleges have absolutely minimal grade inflation so this is false. Not to mention LAC grads do absolutely fantastic in the medical school app process...there are many advantages to having only 1600 at your entire school and it shows when you apply. It matters little where you go as I look through the second visit lists there are people from all over the place, sure there are ivies, big state Us and top LACS...but there are also a bunch of regional schools in there as well...

 

[tennisguy896]

Hahaha...you won't be saying that when a top 20 LAC grad is kicking your ass next year...seriously though many of the top liberal arts colleges have absolutely minimal grade inflation so this is false. Not to mention LAC grads do absolutely fantastic in the medical school app process...there are many advantages to having only 1600 at your entire school and it shows when you apply.

Completely agree. At my liberal arts college, curves are virtually non-existant, so if everyone fails an orgo exam, everyone fails. My brother went to princeton and he said the curve for most orgo exams was 40%= A, but his prof was notorious. Also, there is a clear trend that admissions offices have openly discussed of how med schools are more actively accepting liberal arts grads. By the way, I remember fondly that when I went to a Princeton vs. UPenn bball game, all the princeton guys chanted "SAFETY SCHOOL" at the penn guys b/c all the ivy guys knows that Penn is one of the easiest.

 

[riceman04]

Hahaha...you won't be saying that when a top 20 LAC grad is kicking your ass next year...seriously though many of the top liberal arts colleges have absolutely minimal grade inflation so this is false. Not to mention LAC grads do absolutely fantastic in the medical school app process...there are many advantages to having only 1600 at your entire school and it shows when you apply. It matters little where you go as I look through the second visit lists there are people from all over the place, sure there are ivies, big state Us and top LACS...but there are also a bunch of regional schools in there as well...

totally agree...coming from a Liberal Arts Like University myself!!!!

The only diff is that Rice is Division I in all sports....but we are so dang small that many consider us more like a LAC with serious benefits

 

[Booyakasha]

Completely agree. At my liberal arts college, curves are virtually non-existant, so if everyone fails an orgo exam, everyone fails. My brother went to princeton and he said the curve for most orgo exams was 40%= A, but his prof was notorious. Also, there is a clear trend that admissions offices have openly discussed of how med schools are more actively accepting liberal arts grads. By the way, I remember fondly that when I went to a Princeton vs. UPenn bball game, all the princeton guys chanted "SAFETY SCHOOL" at the penn guys b/c all the ivy guys knows that Penn is one of the easiest.

And what is you alma mater, oh objective one?

 

[Will Ferrell]

Hahaha...you won't be saying that when a top 20 LAC grad is kicking your ass next year...seriously though many of the top liberal arts colleges have absolutely minimal grade inflation so this is false. Not to mention LAC grads do absolutely fantastic in the medical school app process...there are many advantages to having only 1600 at your entire school and it shows when you apply. It matters little where you go as I look through the second visit lists there are people from all over the place, sure there are ivies, big state Us and top LACS...but there are also a bunch of regional schools in there as well...

I wouldn't listen to Donkey Hote. He obviously has NO idea what he was talking about.

 

[MediMama23]

People at the Ivies are no more outstanding or qualified than those at impressive state or other private schools. They just either

a) took the time to apply to an Ivy;
b) had connections that could get them into an Ivy; or
c) said and did the right things to get themselves into an Ivy.

There are people who are dumb as bricks at Ivies (even HPY), and people so damn smart you swear they could teach some of the classes at any school. Just like there are extremely qualified students who get turned down from Ivies, and seemingly undeserved students who get in. You could probably say the same thing for kids at the most and least prestigious schools near you. The only thing that differentiates an Ivy from a non-Ivy is the term "Ivy League." After that, they're all the same, IMO.

To answer one of your questions, yes, there are people in the Ivies who come in with the "I'm going to be a doctor" mindset, get their first intro chem scores back, and strangely enough, switch to something else. I've also seen people come in with no desire to go to medical school and then get on the pre-med track and ride it out. Then there are those students who come in pre-med, do really badly the whole way through, but still work to get themselves into medical school, whether it's with a post-bacc program or staying in their school a little while longer as a grad student. Does it work out for every last one of them who applies? No. They may have gone to a big name school, but they also have as much potential to fuk up their own application as the name of their school has to help them get in.

 

[macadamianut]

About 45 out of the 180 accepted to Hopkins this year were comprised of Yale and Harvard students.

 

[tennisguy896]

And what is you alma mater, oh objective one?

A small liberal arts college that has an 80% acceptance rate for med school applicants. This year we have at least 2/3 guys going to Mayo that I know of. What about you?

 

[eastsidaz]

just curious here on people's opinions/experiences with this subject. and let's two-tier it.

of those who are Harvard/Princeton/Yale - they were obviously outstanding HS students before getting there - what percentage of those pre-meds eventually become MDs? do they essentially ALL get in somewhere at some point?

what percentage of Premeds from the "other" Ivys (Columbia, UPenn, Brown, Dartmouth, Cornell) get in? are most of them virtual locks for med school admissions since they too were (many of them anyways) mostly outstanding in HS?

Not all, but darn close. Keep in mind that a lot of getting in to hotshot undergrads depended on our ability to take standardized tests, an ability that translates to the MCAT. So it's more than just school name--the idea is that the "cream" that rose to the top in the college admissions game rises to the top the med school admissions game too. Whether it's superior people or superior schools is somewhat of a chicken-and-egg unanswerable.

 

[snobored18]

One thing I have to say on this forum is that any school boosting an 80%+ acceptance rate is self selecting when it comes to who gets a committee letter, which in my humble opinion is a complete BS thing to do to your students/graduates. Everyone who has done the work should get the opportunity and encouragement to at least go for their dreams even if they are completely unrealistic ones.

 

[MarzMD]

One thing I have to say on this forum is that any school boosting an 80%+ acceptance rate is self selecting when it comes to who gets a committee letter, which in my humble opinion is a complete BS thing to do to your students/graduates. Everyone who has done the work should get the opportunity and encouragement to at least go for their dreams even if they are completely unrealistic ones.

There are schools that wont write you a LOR?

 

[Mr. Tee]

There are schools that wont write you a LOR?

yep, what a bitter reality.

 

[riceman04]

One thing I have to say on this forum is that any school boosting an 80%+ acceptance rate is self selecting when it comes to who gets a committee letter, which in my humble opinion is a complete BS thing to do to your students/graduates. Everyone who has done the work should get the opportunity and encouragement to at least go for their dreams even if they are completely unrealistic ones.

not so at my undergrad....accep rate is much higher than 80% and the premed advisors are sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo far from selective.
If you want to apply they write a committee letter...that's it...no questions asked...of course they act as your advisor and offer alternatives if they feel that maybe another year of XYZ might help...but if you decide you want to apply anyway...they support you 100%

 

[tennisguy896]

One thing I have to say on this forum is that any school boosting an 80%+ acceptance rate is self selecting when it comes to who gets a committee letter, which in my humble opinion is a complete BS thing to do to your students/graduates. Everyone who has done the work should get the opportunity and encouragement to at least go for their dreams even if they are completely unrealistic ones.

My school has a relatively small applicant pool, which is very strong by the time senior year comes along as many have dropped out. I think that's probably why our acceptance rate is high. Also, my school's health committee doesn't weed anyone out, generally students have realized they shouldn't be applying before they reach the committee.

 

[lowbudget]

Completely agree. At my liberal arts college, curves are virtually non-existant, so if everyone fails an orgo exam, everyone fails. My brother went to princeton and he said the curve for most orgo exams was 40%= A, but his prof was notorious. Also, there is a clear trend that admissions offices have openly discussed of how med schools are more actively accepting liberal arts grads. By the way, I remember fondly that when I went to a Princeton vs. UPenn bball game, all the princeton guys chanted "SAFETY SCHOOL" at the penn guys b/c all the ivy guys knows that Penn is one of the easiest.

Sad, isn't it? Only at an Ivy League NCAA ball game will you hear "SAFETY SCHOOL" as a war cry. So how did Princeton do this year in the Tournament of Close-But-2nd-Place-Sucks-Doesn't-It Invitational?

 

[MediMama23]

not so at my undergrad....accep rate is much higher than 80% and the premed advisors are sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo far from selective.
If you want to apply they write a committee letter...that's it...no questions asked...of course they act as your advisor and offer alternatives if they feel that maybe another year of XYZ might help...but if you decide you want to apply anyway...they support you 100%

Same with us. And last time I checked, we had about 85%+ acceptance (I want to put 91% out there, for entrance in 2004)...no lie.

 

[tennisguy896]

Sad, isn't it? Only at an Ivy League NCAA ball game will you hear "SAFETY SCHOOL" as a war cry. So how did Princeton do this year in the Tournament of Close-But-2nd-Place-Sucks-Doesn't-It Invitational?

I think most of the Ivies suck pretty bad at sports. I remember hearing that Princeton had the lowest scoring bbal game since the implementation of the 3 pt shot last year .

 

[snobored18]

not so at my undergrad....accep rate is much higher than 80% and the premed advisors are sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo far from selective.
If you want to apply they write a committee letter...that's it...no questions asked...of course they act as your advisor and offer alternatives if they feel that maybe another year of XYZ might help...but if you decide you want to apply anyway...they support you 100%

Yeah but who in their right mind is going to apply when the committee comes back and says "Well John Smith we think you should consider a post-bacc year or do this or that next year to strengthen your app". I certainly would take their advice to heart and definitely wouldn't risk the chance of getting a lukewarm letter than would be the kiss of death on an application that already has flaws. I'm sure there are schools out there that do it the right way and occasionally go well above 80% for a single year (I know my school has done it in years past...not this year though bc a group of people with no chance applied anyways)...but I would bet over the course of a decade any school that is open to anyone applying will see their average slip closer to 60 or 70%

 

[snobored18]

Sad, isn't it? Only at an Ivy League NCAA ball game will you hear "SAFETY SCHOOL" as a war cry. So how did Princeton do this year in the Tournament of Close-But-2nd-Place-Sucks-Doesn't-It Invitational?

Princeton a DI lost to Carnegie Mellon a DIII school this year...that has to sting

 

[tennisguy896]

Princeton a DI lost to Carnegie Mellon a DIII school this year...that has to sting

Yeah, but Princeton's got John Nash.

 

[snobored18]

Yeah, but Princeton's got John Nash.

This is true...can he ball though??? I heard he has mad stat taking skills

 

[Booyakasha]

A small liberal arts college that has an 80% acceptance rate for med school applicants. This year we have at least 2/3 guys going to Mayo that I know of. What about you?

I go to a moderately-sized public school that probably has about the same acceptance rate, perhaps a little lower (I have never really cared to look hard enough for the actual numbers). Most go to state medical schools, but quite a few of us have gotten into top schools this year (a few Harvard, a few Penn, several Michigan, a few Yale, Wash U, you get the idea).

Thought you might have been a Princeton dude...

 

[crazy_cavalier]

thanks Marz,

that's the kind of data i was thinking of. 89.1% acceptance rate for seniors into medical school - that's nuts.

as for dara,

i wasn't trying to imply that outstanding students don't exist at other universities, or that other schools aren't outstanding. i was just merely asking about what people knew about the acceptance rate for Pre-med students at the Ivys. u mention that if u are qualified for med school at another school, u'll get in. so the point of my question is essentially, what percentage of pre-meds at Ivys are "qualified" for med school.

Duke is not Ivy... but 90% isn't bad at all, hah.

I'm positive that Harvard consistently has a 100% rate for its premed Biochem students.

 

[Booyakasha]

I think most of the Ivies suck pretty bad at sports. I remember hearing that Princeton had the lowest scoring bbal game since the implementation of the 3 pt shot last year .

Penn wasn't too horrible this year, at least they made it to the NCAA tourney

 

[Will Ferrell]

Yeah, but Princeton's got John Nash.

actually Princeton and Carnegie Mellon (his undergrad) share him.

 

[notdeadyet]

About 45 out of the 180 accepted to Hopkins this year were comprised of Yale and Harvard students.

Source? If that's actually the case, I'll DEFINITELY drop Hopkins off the list. That sounds like the least diverse med school I've ever heard of...

 

[tennisguy896]

actually Princeton and Carnegie Mellon (his undergrad) share him.

He went to Carnegie, but he teaches at Princeton.

 

[Donkey Hote]

Hahaha...you won't be saying that when a top 20 LAC grad is kicking your ass next year...

Hmmm....actually, I'm a fourth year medical student, just reporting the trends I see, from actually going through medical school, not just talking about it...and no, noone has "kicked my ass" in med school...not even the ivy leaguers or the small liberal artisans.

Oh, Im a UC grad...if it wasn't obvious.

(I shouldn't even be in this premed forum, as I'm a md in 3 weeks, I just saw a subject heading that screamed annoying Ivy league arrogance and I had to vent.)

 

[snobored18]

Hmmm....actually, I'm a fourth year medical student, just reporting the trends I see, from actually going through medical school, not just talking about it...and no, noone has "kicked my ass" in med school...not even the ivy leaguers or the small liberal artisans.

Oh, Im a UC grad...if it wasn't obvious.

(I shouldn't even be in this premed forum, as I'm a md in 3 weeks, I just saw a subject heading that screamed annoying Ivy league arrogance and I had to vent.)

Hahahaha...I figured you were a UC alum...but lumping the LACs with the ivies pissed me off...we work harder for our grades and don't need the reassurance that we are indeed special, and not in the short bus kind of way...congrats on graduating Dr.

 

[Hercules022]

Not sure why there is so much debate about this, when the answer to the OP's question is statistically obvious. The national average for acceptance to medical school is something like 48%. So that is going to mean that most schools will be around that percentage for applied / accepted. Many of the posters have acted like even average or low-ranked undergrads probably have great acceptance rates to med schools, as if the people pulling the national stats down to 48% are bums on the street randomly applying and not getting in. Since almost every applicant has or will shortly have a degree from a four year school, the people pulling the national avg. down to 48% are students / alums from four year colleges.

So Duke being 89% or an Ivy being in the 80-90% range is quite impressive, and clearly suggests that students at Ivies / other top schools are, for whatever reason, getting into med school at a much higher rate than students at lower-ranked schools

 

[doublehh03]

not necessarily. like someone said above, maybe at ivies or elite schools like that, they may suggests to some students who are not very strong applicants (like 3.0-3.3; 27-29 MCAT) not to apply and go find other careers. therefore, the only students who apply will be very strong applicants and therefore most likely to be accepted at a med school somewhere => hence the high acceptance rate. i CANNOT believe that at yale only 146 ppl applied to med schools. that's too low a # and we can see they may have helped chosen the "strong" students to apply.

at other schools, the acceptance rate may not be as high b/c it doesn't matter who apply. u can have the worst stats and they can't stop u from applying. therefore, the acceptance rate won't be as high

 

[riceman04]

Yeah but who in their right mind is going to apply when the committee comes back and says "Well John Smith we think you should consider a post-bacc year or do this or that next year to strengthen your app". I certainly would take their advice to heart and definitely wouldn't risk the chance of getting a lukewarm letter than would be the kiss of death on an application that already has flaws. I'm sure there are schools out there that do it the right way and occasionally go well above 80% for a single year (I know my school has done it in years past...not this year though bc a group of people with no chance applied anyways)...but I would bet over the course of a decade any school that is open to anyone applying will see their average slip closer to 60 or 70%

we can settle this by calling the adcademic advising office at Rice...ask for Noreen and she can tell you the stats over the past X number of years...you will be surprised.

The suggestion that the advisors make is presented as an option, which, surprisingly, most people do not take.
Here is something that I want you to consider...Rice is in Texas and the majority of the students attending Rice are from Texas (although the new pres is quickly changing that... .
It is sooooooooo much easier for students (especially coming from that school) to gain acceptance at a Texas medical school b/c the state has many medical schools and saves the vast majority of the seats for Tex residents.

That is something that I am sure plays a role in the very high acceptance rate at Rizzzzzzice