What pronoun do you use to refer to a party whose gender you don't know in secondaries?

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sallyhasanidea

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UF has us reading stories, and I need to refer to the author of the stories. Which of the followign would be appropriate:

"the author took time out of his or her day...."
---- my quipe with this is that it takes up a lot of chracters as you use he and she often
or

"the author took time out of his day..."

or is there a completely better way to write this?
 
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Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
He (and more recently, she) is the convention. "He or she" has been used as well, but is bulky writing. Contrary to popular belief, the use of they or their as a singular gender-neutral pronoun is pretty widely accepted.

http://grammarist.com/usage/they/
Click to expand...

hmm... that would save me characters without offending anybody by using the pronoun he... @Goro any opinions on this matter?
 
"The author took time out of eir day."

Common. It's 2016!
 
Vocoded Super Saw said:
This is incorrect grammar. "Their" is reserved for plural.
Click to expand...
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
He (and more recently, she) is the convention. "He or she" has been used as well, but is bulky writing. Contrary to popular belief, the use of they or their as a singular gender-neutral pronoun is pretty widely accepted.

http://grammarist.com/usage/they/
Click to expand...
sallyhasanidea said:
hmm... that would save me characters without offending anybody by using the pronoun he... @Goro any opinions on this matter?
Click to expand...

Singular they is historically popular. I would use it personally to save space and because it's gender neutral.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/can-they-be-accepted-as-a-singular-pronoun-1428686651
 
"A student may run into any number of obstacles when he or she applies to medical school."

Using the term their is incorrect and refers to more than one person.
 
I was taught that they/their is always plural, and to use it otherwise is incorrect. However, using they/their singularly is so common that I don't think anyone would notice/care unless it is a piece of technical writing.
 
As I posted earlier, the use of they/their as a singular pronoun is widely accepted and has been for a while. The "rule" that it is always plural is like the rule that you cannot end a sentence with a preposition--just a myth you needn't worry about.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
As I posted earlier, the use of they/their as a singular pronoun is widely accepted and has been for a while. The "rule" that it is always plural is like the rule that you cannot end a sentence with a preposition--just a myth you needn't worry about.
Click to expand...

These are myths?! You just rocked my world.
 
DocJuan said:
They didn't actually say anything definitive.
Click to expand...
sallyhasanidea said:
So what's the verdict? Should I use their/they as a singular pronoun?
Click to expand...

The linked video says using singular they is acceptable. Why? Because using his/her, he/she, him/her repeatedly throughout makes the sentence look rather cumbersome. Singular they has been used for many centuries without a problem, so using it now is perfectly fine.
 
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@Lawper

I guess... but one could avoid using a "singular" they or their without making the sentence look ridiculous.
 
DocJuan said:
@Lawper

I guess... but one could avoid using a "singular" they or their without making the sentence look ridiculous.
Click to expand...

Language evolves. "Rules" are just guidelines that can change as the culture and language change. The only rule that is really timeless is to be efficacious and efficient with language.
 
DocJuan said:
@Lawper

I guess... but one could avoid using a "singular" they or their without making the sentence look ridiculous.
Click to expand...

But why? Singular they was used since 1400s! Just because some radical grammarians in the 18th century wanted to redefine the rules of grammar doesn't invalidate the use of singular they. The simple alternative of replacing singular they with he risks running into problems of gender neutrality. Singular words like everyone, anyone etc. refer to a group of people, so matching with the pronoun they makes sense.
 
Some old-timers and grammar nazis (like me) still find the use of singular they instead of the politically correct s/he or the grammar-neutral (but unPC) presumptive he awkward at times but acceptable in some contexts.

Very Acceptable: Everyone should do their best.
Awkward: Pat went to the store. What did they buy? (When "they" is just one person)

Yes, endless he or she, him or her, his or hers get cumbersome.

Personally, I opt for s/he when s/he is the subject of the sentence -- not a character hog, clear, and PC. I'll use their for possessive. And him/her if appropriate, but not too often if it can be avoided.
 
DokterMom said:
Some old-timers and grammar nazis (like me) still find the use of singular they instead of the politically correct s/he or the grammar-neutral (but unPC) presumptive he awkward at times but acceptable in some contexts.

Very Acceptable: Everyone should do their best.
Awkward: Pat went to the store. What did they buy? (When "they" is just one person)

Yes, endless he or she, him or her, his or hers get cumbersome.

Personally, I opt for s/he when s/he is the subject of the sentence -- not a character hog, clear, and PC. I'll use their for possessive. And him/her if appropriate, but not too often if it can be avoided.
Click to expand...

No one is going to advocate using a gender neutral pronoun when the gender is known. That makes no sense and actually is poor construction. It would be just like using she when the gender is masculine.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
No one is going to advocate using a gender neutral pronoun when the gender is known. That makes no sense and actually is poor construction. It would be just like using she when the gender is masculine.
Click to expand...

Correct. No one is. So which gender is Pat?
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
As I posted earlier, the use of they/their as a singular pronoun is widely accepted and has been for a while. The "rule" that it is always plural is like the rule that you cannot end a sentence with a preposition--just a myth you needn't worry about.
Click to expand...
I still try to never end a sentence with a preposition, unless I have to.

...

couldn't resist.
 
DokterMom said:
Some old-timers and grammar nazis (like me) still find the use of singular they instead of the politically correct s/he or the grammar-neutral (but unPC) presumptive he awkward at times but acceptable in some contexts.

Very Acceptable: Everyone should do their best.
Awkward: Pat went to the store. What did they buy? (When "they" is just one person)

Yes, endless he or she, him or her, his or hers get cumbersome.

Personally, I opt for s/he when s/he is the subject of the sentence -- not a character hog, clear, and PC. I'll use their for possessive. And him/her if appropriate, but not too often if it can be avoided.
Click to expand...
DokterMom said:
Correct. No one is. So which gender is Pat?
Click to expand...

I will use the singular they. Yes even when used to refer to a single person. Why? Because singular they is purely gender neutral. He/she requires the assumption of a gender binary, which some don't conform to. Singular they best solves this without the need of creating more pronouns.

Regarding your response, I don't understand what you mean by old timers and grammar nazis. Singular they has been used since 1400s; the radical grammarian revolt to revise the grammar rules happened few centuries later. Opposing singular they is actually a modern approach historically. If old timers want to be traditional, they should avoid these radical revisions.
 
Using "they" is the most appropriate use for your reasons because:

1. It avoids awkward use of he/she
2. Some people do not identify by either gender and actually use they/their in place of she/her or he/his. You never know if you will have someone who will be that level of picky with you reading your admissions essay and think you aren't being inclusive enough
3. Saves the character count
 
Lawper said:
I will use the singular they. Yes even when used to refer to a single person. Why? Because singular they is purely gender neutral. He/she requires the assumption of a gender binary, which some don't conform to. Singular they best solves this without the need of creating more pronouns.

Regarding your response, I don't understand what you mean by old timers and grammar nazis. Singular they has been used since 1400s; the radical grammarian revolt to revise the grammar rules happened few centuries later. Opposing singular they is actually a modern approach historically. If old timers want to be traditional, they should avoid these radical revisions.
Click to expand...

Much of the written English from the 1400s is nearly indecipherable. I won't endorse it merely because it is old.

While it's true that singular they is truly gender neutral, I'd prefer creating a new singular pronoun to clouding the meaning of an old one. I understand I may be in the minority with that view, but that is my preference. The language evolves and we add new words all the time. This is one instance where I think we need a new word.

Best available option though -- Reword the sentence. "What did Pat buy?"
 
DokterMom said:
Much of the written English from the 1400s is nearly indecipherable. I won't endorse it merely because it is old.

While it's true that singular they is truly gender neutral, I'd prefer creating a new singular pronoun to clouding the meaning of an old one. I understand I may be in the minority with that view, but that is my preference. The language evolves and we add new words all the time. This is one instance where I think we need a new word.

Best available option though -- Reword the sentence. "What did Pat buy?"
Click to expand...

Well there goes Shakespeare 🙁 the point still stands. Writers across centuries enjoyed employing the singular they since it instills creativity in their works. Somehow, radical grammarians took issue with that and decided to add arbitrary rules that satisfy their interpretation. Luckily, the movement towards promoting singular they is strengthening from the above article I cited.

That's fine and I respect that. I'm just emphasizing that there is nothing wrong with singular they, and the opposition to it is based entirely on the rules of grammar drafted by grammarians who like making rules on everything 😉

Yeah rewording sentences would help.
 
JustAPhD said:
You can actually use "their" to refer to a singular subject.
Click to expand...

Tutoring SAT all these past years, I like to tell people to use "his or her." I don't think anyone actually cares, but it's just become so ingrained into my mind.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singular_they

Garner's Modern American Usage (2003) recommends cautious use of singular they, and avoidance where possible because its use is stigmatized.

  • "Where noun–pronoun disagreement can be avoided, avoid it. Where it can't be avoided, resort to it cautiously because some people will doubt your literacy ...
Do I think adcoms will care? No. Also they removed the SAT writing portion so this probably doesn't even matter for that test any more.

You can pretty much use whatever you want, but I would use "The author took time out of his or her day..."
 
DokterMom said:
Much of the written English from the 1400s is nearly indecipherable. I won't endorse it merely because it is old.

While it's true that singular they is truly gender neutral, I'd prefer creating a new singular pronoun to clouding the meaning of an old one. I understand I may be in the minority with that view, but that is my preference. The language evolves and we add new words all the time. This is one instance where I think we need a new word.

Best available option though -- Reword the sentence. "What did Pat buy?"
Click to expand...

Your example doesn't serve your point. You wouldn't use a gender neutral pronoun to describe a character whose gender is known. The reader isn't supposed to be guessing the gender. The author should be making it clear.
 
Do people actually care? Just use "her" and anyone with half a brain should know what you are attempting. I mean, if you use "their," your essay should be perfect in both grammar and style (even then it is a gamble); else it would be be perceived as as an error.

And if they accuse you of sexism, you can ask if they check their cis-privilege today.
700px-Gender_Chart.png

BTW, I demand to be addressed as "xe" from now on. Thank you very much.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...f-thats-the-pronoun-they-demand-that-you-use/
 
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wizzed101 said:
Do people actually care? Just use "her" and anyone with half a brain should know what you are attempting. I mean, if you use "their," your essay should be perfect in both grammar and style (even then it is a gamble); else it would be be perceived as as an error.

And if they accuse you of sexism, you can ask if they check their cis-privilege today.
cJwvDY8.png

BTW, I demand to be addressed as "xe" from now on. Thank you very much.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...f-thats-the-pronoun-they-demand-that-you-use/
Click to expand...

Idk how to respond to this
 
Use the least awkward-sounding pronoun and move on. This isn't something worth worrying about.
 
What does it matter? There's nothing wrong with calling an author "he" or "she" if it is difficult to distinguish his gender. You're doing nothing wrong. It's superfluous information anyways. Nobody gives a hoot about the author's gender. They want to know what you are trying to convey. If you really think saying "he" could be offensive, why not say,

"The author took the time to ___",

"The author ___" or

"The author spent -adjective or adjective phrase- time to__"

and eliminate it all together. English is a pretty flexible language. Also time is always taken out of your day (unless there is reason to distinguish between the time during day and that during night). There is no reason to explain that. Whoever reads this probably has an understanding of how tasks can eat up the time in your day. I would just avoid it anyways.

I would also think about the message you want to convey about the subject in question. You can create contrast between subjects by attributing certain genders. It's a bit cheeky, but y'know...
 
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tskbdmnd said:

I would also think about the message you want to convey about the subject in question. You can create contrast between subjects by attributing certain genders. It's a bit cheeky, but y'know...
Click to expand...
One gripe I have with made up stories that ascribe a gender to the characters is that inevitably the man is demonstrating good behavior and the woman is screwing things up.

It is another argument for using they and their as singular when gender is unknown. It doesn't sound as weird as you might think... look at the experiences while shadowing thread that described someone with "their penis stuck in a wrench".
 
LizzyM said:
One gripe I have with made up stories that ascribe a gender to the characters is that inevitably the man is demonstrating good behavior and the woman is screwing things up.

It is another argument for using they and their as singular when gender is unknown. It doesn't sound as weird as you might think... look at the experiences while shadowing thread that described someone with "their penis stuck in a wrench".
Click to expand...

So I noticed the opposite trend in my personal statement. I only mentioned female doctors teaching me about medicine or compassion or w/e and it was the males ****ing everything up. Either way I'm hoping nobody notices.
 
LizzyM said:
One gripe I have with made up stories that ascribe a gender to the characters is that inevitably the man is demonstrating good behavior and the woman is screwing things up.

It is another argument for using they and their as singular when gender is unknown. It doesn't sound as weird as you might think... look at the experiences while shadowing thread that described someone with "their penis stuck in a wrench".
Click to expand...

Yeah, but you can do it without being terrible. It's just an extension of grammatical gender for a rhetorical use. Obviously you can use it to convey the negatives of masculinity and femininity, but you could also use it to convey the positives of them. Once again, it's superfluous information. Unless you're just being dumb, nobody should care.

Example: The church being called the bride of Christ. There's a lot of great information to be taken from the analogy.

Imo the better option is to avoid gender all together. It limits you a bit, but it'll force you to learn more direct ways of conveying information.
 
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