What proportion of programs use board cutoffs?

[HeyThereJude]

I come from a top tier school, have good research, excellent recs, but not special board scores. I am open to going anywhere for residency, and will apply to over 100 programs, but am still deciding if it is worth even applying. How can I know which programs don't have cut offs so I won't waste time/money applying there? Are there any programs that look past numbers in derm?

Also, how does applying to intern year and applying to derm work? Are there programs that accept you together, or are they all such that you must apply separately, and will probably have to move after PGY1?

Lastly, are there malignant derm programs around? How can I find out which these are?

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[Doublecortin]

I come from a top tier school, have good research, excellent recs, but not special board scores. I am open to going anywhere for residency, and will apply to over 100 programs, but am still deciding if it is worth even applying. How can I know which programs don't have cut offs so I won't waste time/money applying there? Are there any programs that look past numbers in derm?

Also, how does applying to intern year and applying to derm work? Are there programs that accept you together, or are they all such that you must apply separately, and will probably have to move after PGY1?

Lastly, are there malignant derm programs around? How can I find out which these are?

Yeah, it's a tough one. I read on Mount Sinai's website their cut off is 230, secretary at Colorado said theirs is 220, but I am guessing most programs won't disclose it.

 

[jmw38]

I come from a top tier school, have good research, excellent recs, but not special board scores. I am open to going anywhere for residency, and will apply to over 100 programs, but am still deciding if it is worth even applying. How can I know which programs don't have cut offs so I won't waste time/money applying there? Are there any programs that look past numbers in derm?

Also, how does applying to intern year and applying to derm work? Are there programs that accept you together, or are they all such that you must apply separately, and will probably have to move after PGY1?

Lastly, are there malignant derm programs around? How can I find out which these are?

if you have solid research and connections/recs, i would suggest still applying. you hear about people all the time who match without "derm" scores. honor what you can and do a lot of aways.

there are a few categorical derm programs but not many. most require that you arrange your own intern year.

 

[moinmoin]

There are some derm programs that allow you to automatically match at their prelim/TY program if you match with them for derm. I know Minnesota was like that. There were others as well but I can't remember which ones now

 

[dermathalon]

I come from a top tier school, have good research, excellent recs, but not special board scores. I am open to going anywhere for residency, and will apply to over 100 programs, but am still deciding if it is worth even applying. How can I know which programs don't have cut offs so I won't waste time/money applying there? Are there any programs that look past numbers in derm?

Lastly, are there malignant derm programs around? How can I find out which these are?

Predicting cutoffs is going to be tough. Programs may change their requirements from year to year so nothing is set in stone. There are many programs that will look past numbers but you'll have to give them a reason to do that. Either you have to write something really interesting specific for that program in your personal statement or you'll have to have a connection. If you are below the filter in programs that use this, you can forget it unless someone can vouch for you to get your application looked at.

I'd be surprised if anyone will outright tell you what the malignant derm programs are so you'll have to read in between the lines. If a program went unmatched in the past, that might perk up your antennae. Regardless, you should still go to the interview and then see what people are like when you get there. In my experience, residents at a program are not always negative about their own program during the interview unless you know that resident personally. Of course, there are exceptions where a resident will be open, but I don't think it's that common. I think what's more important is the subtle things like the body language of how the residents interact with each other in the dinner or during the interview day. Are they truly friends with each other or are they tolerating each other? Also, ask them what they like about the program and see how much they actually "gush" about the program or does it seem to come across forced where they are word finding to make a good answer. Also, are the faculty too busy doling out their preformed "well formulated questions" instead of actually getting to know you and listening to your answers...a clue that a particular faculty member is not a good interviewer and more interested in themselves rather than the resident. I found fre-form interviewers to be the best and extract the most information out of me since I felt open and comfortable to tell them about myself in ways that weren't obvious in the written application.

As an aside, in these cases where you get pre-formed lists, you still smile and do your best to answer their questions but you'll have to realize that there will tend to be a more rushed and forced feeling to these interviews. So you'll want to be sure with your words, project confidence but not over the top arrogance, don't trip over your words (practice answering tough questions...a favorite one is to talk about a ethical dilemma), maintain good eye contact, and don't ramble. Take a second to think about your answer (especially if you already have the answer ready) since it will seem like you were more thoughtful instead of just blurting out the canned response.

 

[Jimmer Fredette]

Programs with cutoffs according to websites or above posters:

University of Wisconsin 220
University of Colorado 220
Texas A&M 220
Mt. Sinai 230

 

[SierraPoppa]

If you are serious about doing derm I would not recommend trying to save money or time on the ERAS process. The amount of money is miniscule compared to just about anything else in your life (loans, future salary, what you spent on that prada bag last week). There is just no way to know who will or won't offer you an interview, which is why most of us shotgunned it.

 

[pupster]

There is just no way to know who will or won't offer you an interview, which is why most of us shotgunned it.

Amen.

 

[Doublecortin]

Amen.

yeah, and then they write on their websites or in rejection emails how they've received this many hundreds of applications for only 2-3 spots... Perhaps that's because everybody applies everywhere?

 

[HopkinsHottie]

yeah, and then they write on their websites or in rejection emails how they've received this many hundreds of applications for only 2-3 spots... Perhaps that's because everybody applies everywhere?

Amen. I think they should limit the number of applications allowed per applicant. If we were all allowed to apply to only, say 40 programs, it might make you think a bit more of where to apply and limit the fatigue felt by the programs at having to screen every single applicant applying to derm, even when they have no reason to want to go to Ohio (for example) except just to apply. I think it's annoying on both sides of the equation.

 

[Doublecortin]

Amen. I think they should limit the number of applications allowed per applicant. If we were all allowed to apply to only, say 40 programs, it might make you think a bit more of where to apply and limit the fatigue felt by the programs at having to screen every single applicant applying to derm, even when they have no reason to want to go to Ohio (for example) except just to apply. I think it's annoying on both sides of the equation.

I agree, it would be a win-win for both sides. Except AAMC, which is the biggest racket in the history of mankind wouldn't let that happen. They wanna squeeze every last penny out of us.

 

[hawk126]

I agree, it would be a win-win for both sides. Except AAMC, which is the biggest racket in the history of mankind wouldn't let that happen. They wanna squeeze every last penny out of us.

In the world of medical student racketeering,

NBME >>> AAMC

 

[SierraPoppa]

yeah, and then they write on their websites or in rejection emails how they've received this many hundreds of applications for only 2-3 spots... Perhaps that's because everybody applies everywhere?

Nothing pisses me off quicker than being shoved into a broken, racketeered, meat-grinder of a system only to be ridiculed by my peers when I do everything within my power to secure a favorable outcome for myself.

You know what the programs want. You know the best strategies for optimizing your chances. None of these things are a secret. This is a game, and a broken one at that, and we all know it. If you don't want to play, go home, but don't take the ball with you.

 

[dermathalon]

Nothing pisses me off quicker than being shoved into a broken, racketeered, meat-grinder of a system only to be ridiculed by my peers when I do everything within my power to secure a favorable outcome for myself.

You know what the programs want. You know the best strategies for optimizing your chances. None of these things are a secret. This is a game, and a broken one at that, and we all know it. If you don't want to play, go home, but don't take the ball with you.

Exactly...it's a game and you've got to play. Couldn't have said it any better Sierra. It's not THAT random if you play the game (although we all want to console ourselves by saying its all random....you can still control the outcome). That's my problem with people on this forum that live and die on the probabilities...connections mean a lot and playing the game means a lot more.

 

[HeyThereJude]

I agree that in the larger picture of things, the amount that you will pay for applying to 50 schools that will not even look at your app because you didn't make their cut-off is not major.

However, I feel that it would help with the emotional rollercoaster of application season, and help with the time you invest per school to research/show your interest in them.

I really would have liked it these cut-offs were public knowledge or accessible to applicants, as right now many of us don't welcome any extra costs, however small, especially when our application may just be an easy source of extra income for an otherwise uninterested program.

 

[dermathalon]

I agree that in the larger picture of things, the amount that you will pay for applying to 50 schools that will not even look at your app because you didn't make their cut-off is not major.

However, I feel that it would help with the emotional rollercoaster of application season, and help with the time you invest per school to research/show your interest in them.

I really would have liked it these cut-offs were public knowledge or accessible to applicants, as right now many of us don't welcome any extra costs, however small, especially when our application may just be an easy source of extra income for an otherwise uninterested program.

Yeah, this is yet another part of the application process that really sucks so I get where you are coming from.

Unfortunately, there is no way that places will say in writing what their cutoffs are because they internally violate cut-offs all the time. The cutoff is just to make it easier on them to get through 300+ applications. However, if you are a known person to them, the step 1 score is not that important as they will know you beyond a number. So in effect, the cutoffs are soft cutoffs and not an absolute if you have another redeeming quality such as a connection, research (including but not limited to PhDs), etc. Tip of the iceberg...

 

[pupster]

Yeah, this is yet another part of the application process that really sucks so I get where you are coming from.

Unfortunately, there is no way that places will say in writing what their cutoffs are because they internally violate cut-offs all the time. The cutoff is just to make it easier on them to get through 300+ applications. However, if you are a known person to them, the step 1 score is not that important as they will know you beyond a number. So in effect, the cutoffs are soft cutoffs and not an absolute if you have another redeeming quality such as a connection, research (including but not limited to PhDs), etc. Tip of the iceberg...

I will second that. There is a way in ERAS to only download applications meeting certain criteria (i.e. AOA, board scores). However, if you are known to the program, then the program can also manually pull your application for review. Happens all the time...which is why you won't see firm cutoffs.

 

[asmallchild]

The other thing to remember is that cutoffs are fluid. I come from a program that has traditionally set its cutoffs very high but among the candidates reviewed thus far and extended interview offers to, it appears we are lowering that cutoff for this year.

 

[pupster]

The other thing to remember is that cutoffs are fluid. I come from a program that has traditionally set its cutoffs very high but among the candidates reviewed thus far and extended interview offers to, it appears we are lowering that cutoff for this year.

Interesting...do you think it will be less competitive this year due to the increased # of spots?

 

[asmallchild]

Interesting...do you think it will be less competitive this year due to the increased # of spots?

It's possible, I do not think it was an intended drop in the cutoff. The faculty across the board were stunned by the average Step1 scores they were seeing this year.

 

[pupster]

It's possible, I do not think it was an intended drop in the cutoff. The faculty across the board were stunned by the average Step1 scores they were seeing this year.

How much lower are the scores that you're getting? "Stunned" seems like a rather strong adjective.

 

[asmallchild]

How much lower are the scores that you're getting? "Stunned" seems like a rather strong adjective.

Obviously I'm not privy to the entire list of applicants but we've extended interviews to a couple students who scored below the national average. I'm certain my school's deans would have strongly discouraged me from applying if I were in those shoes so in a way it is stunning to me to have multiple applicants with those scores.

Perhaps this represents a shift in our program to attract applicants with different strengths? Perhaps this is a reflection of the applicant pool this year? Perhaps those applicants were connected somehow that we were not aware of? Perhaps different screening criteria are used for people who rotated through our department as compared to complete unknowns?

I agree with the poster above who stated the safest course probably is to apply to as many programs as you can afford. While many programs do use cutoffs, they do move and exceptions are made.