What purpose does Verbal serve on MCAT

[Midifelder10]

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If you can perform on physical and biological section why is verbal weighed so heavy. If you are doing fine in other sections you do understand the language, can communicate with the patients. This section has kept some good students who wanted to be in med school from pursuing their dreams. It is so counterproductive and inefficient that people are taking this test multiple times just to get in.

Example A; P 11, V 7, BS 11 29
Example B: P 9, V 13, B 9 31

Who has a better chance of success in Med school? My vote A.

I don't want to start crap but a honest intellectual discussion only.

 

[areserine]

Narmerguy, how well are you doing on verbal? It sounds to me like the answers don't have a strong correlation with the conclusions that you reach by reasoning, but they match the conclusions that the test makers, the people who did the questions when they were experimental, and that I, and other people who are scoring well on the section reached. I've barely seen any answers that were not logical conclusions, and the best possible conclusion based on the information in the passage.

Regardless, do you not see how reaching the same assumptions as the author could be an important skill in medicine? For example, you're discussing some new symptoms with a patient. (I have little knowledge of actual diseases, and I'm not trying to describe and actual diagnosis here, just a possible situation.) She's been complaining of back pain for years, with headaches, but lately it's gotten worse. She says she "hears a crinking sound coming from her back, and it feels like warblabing in her head." And you look at her and think, what the hell does that mean? You need to use her prior language (and followup questions, which may lead to answers that are equally unclear) to figure out what a crinking sound probably means, and whether warblabing is a sharp or dull pain, where it is, etc. Do you think all patients come in and can clearly describe what's wrong? Yes, part (some people may argue most) of reading people and interpreting what they're saying is non-verbal, the pauses they take, their body language, etc, but a lot of it is verbal. For example, they way they phrase things when they're not telling the whole truth. "Yeah, I'll be fine, I've got neighbors." Is not the same response to a question like, is there someone at home who can take care of you as "Yes, my next-door neighbor and I are very close, she will come over every day and make sure I take my pills."

 

[Narmerguy]

Narmerguy, how well are you doing on verbal? It sounds to me like the answers don't have a strong correlation with the conclusions that you reach by reasoning, but they match the conclusions that the test makers, the people who did the questions when they were experimental, and that I, and other people who are scoring well on the section reached. I've barely seen any answers that were not logical conclusions, and the best possible conclusion based on the information in the passage.

Regardless, do you not see how reaching the same assumptions as the author could be an important skill in medicine? For example, you're discussing some new symptoms with a patient. (I have little knowledge of actual diseases, and I'm not trying to describe and actual diagnosis here, just a possible situation.) She's been complaining of back pain for years, with headaches, but lately it's gotten worse. She says she "hears a crinking sound coming from her back, and it feels like warblabing in her head." And you look at her and think, what the hell does that mean? You need to use her prior language (and followup questions, which may lead to answers that are equally unclear) to figure out what a crinking sound probably means, and whether warblabing is a sharp or dull pain, where it is, etc. Do you think all patients come in and can clearly describe what's wrong? Yes, part (some people may argue most) of reading people and interpreting what they're saying is non-verbal, the pauses they take, their body language, etc, but a lot of it is verbal. For example, they way they phrase things when they're not telling the whole truth. "Yeah, I'll be fine, I've got neighbors." Is not the same response to a question like, is there someone at home who can take care of you as "Yes, my next-door neighbor and I are very close, she will come over every day and make sure I take my pills."

I scored 11's & 12's on my practice tests with the occasional 13. Haven't got the real scores back yet.

Most of VR is very logical and reasonable. Don't get me wrong on that. However, if you miss even 5-6 questions (12%-15%), you're already looking at an 11 at best. Thus, the potential cost of even just a few of their questions being legitimately debatable or ambiguous is extremely high.

I think the VR encourages the wrong approach for these sorts of problems. With BS and PS, indeed, there is one correct answer and the information provided (coupled with background knowledge) is sufficient to select the correct answer. But this is not the case for the Verbal. Verbal requires making assumptions about the author or the topic. Similar to examining a patient, why would I assume that my assumption is accurate when I can simply ask additional questions to get at the answer.

More importantly, why would I assume that other options are not even plausible? Whether one "answer" or choice is most likely out of a range of options depends on the degree to which I believe each corresponding necessary assumption is likely. For some cases, this is obvious (is it more likely to assume that this artist, despite being introduced as a male, is a sex-change patient who was born a female, or that he was born a male?). However, in other cases, this becomes a matter of taste, experience, or pure personal preference. I'd give specific examples but that is against the rules.

My point is, this test forces one to state that three answers are "wrong" and that one is "right". Or that three choices are less likely and that one answer is most likely. So long as the correct answer can be arrived at through logical reasoning alone, that seems like a perfectly fine testing model. But as soon as one must make ambiguous assumptions, we are no longer testing just reasoning abilities.

For example, I answered a question that hinged on my interpretation of how small an object was that the passage referred to only once (if it was smaller than a pea, one answer would be most likely, but if it was smaller than a grain of sand, another answer would be most likely). This is an example of what I consider a stupid question. I am perfectly aware of how one could reasonably arrive at every single answer choice, but all of it hinged completely on my interpretation of how small the object was (and other factors that I considered rather simple to figure out). So if I guess wrong, what does that say? Did I not understand the passage now? Am I incapable of rational thought? Most likely, in a real scenario, I would simply ask for clarification of how size of the object and this would be over and done with.

But who knows. Perhaps I just lack the necessary reading comprehension skills and all these answers are obvious once you see the solution. Often that is the case, but I find multiple cases where I would still call BS.

 

[Dianyla]

I think the real purpose of Verbal is to assess your ability to cope with making the best choices given limited clues and high uncertainty. If that's not important to the actual practice of most medicine, well I'll eat my hat.

As Narmerguy points out, most science questions have a tidy black or white right or wrong answer. Verbal tests your powers of inference and prediction, interpreting what information you've been given, considering the bias through which it's been communicated. Most answers are more vs. less right. Shades of grey.

Understandably, this is maddening to all you science-heavy types who want there to be a 100% right answer. But remember, medicine is an art, not a science. There are very few black/white diagnoses or treatment plans in the real world.

Many medical schools are very interested in the Verbal score. In fact, McMaster University doesn't even use PS/BS or cumulative in their assessment of candidates, they only look at verbal.

 

[ur2l8]

I would give B an interview over A.

Since when did elementary physics and organic chemistry play a huge role in the daily tasks of practitioners? You think knowing the cell cycle is really all that relevant to whether someone is a good doctor? Being well-rounded applies only for the direct skills of a doctor. The tools you learn now are tools that help you in learning the skills to be in medicine, they are not the skills directly.

What the PS and BS sections will show is the ability to work hard to comprehend and memorize information. VR tests an innate (harder to improve) ability to think critically and efficiently. Being a doctor, I would say, is more about analyzing complex information and making the best decision than outright memorization.

While low science scores would be a red flag for me as it indicates a lack of time and dedication put forth for a significant test, I would weigh verbal reasoning significantly higher because the ceiling that person can reach is higher; thus, if I was on an admissions committee, I would grant that person an interview and see if he/she is committed to changing habits to improve dedication and work harder.

On a final note (which I hope will not offend too many people), it is not as if the sciences that we have to know for the MCAT are particularly difficult. They are the most basic concepts in each of the respective fields. If you and anyone else do get into medical school, I think it highly likely that you may look back at the MCAT and scoff at its simplicity.

P.S. I am not bashing the sciences, I agree that a solid scientific background is a plus, as it will make med school much easier to understand. Also, my argument is assuming we are not talking about two different applicants with extreme differences in scores (i.e. 14/6/14 vs 7/15/7 . Such scenarios are rare, but definitely more interesting as it really highlights the specific weaknesses of the applicants. They would both have to prove to me that they can overcome those weaknesses).

+1 so hard. Verbal is probably the most important section in my opinion. Anyone can know basic science

 

[whoknows87]

Verbal and Physics just why, Biology and Chemistry I totally get, but do they teach you physics again in Medical School no, sure you should be familiar with some concepts and topics but 2 semesters worth I dont think so , they make you take physics as a pre req, but not Anatomy & Physiology something is wrong here

 

[CaribbeanBlue]

Verbal and Physics just why, Biology and Chemistry I totally get, but do they teach you physics again in Medical School no, sure you should be familiar with some concepts and topics but 2 semesters worth I dont think so , they make you take physics as a pre req, but not Anatomy & Physiology something is wrong here

I think physics is significant for the reason that quite a few doctors are sort of like technicians now. Not every doctor will need to understand the properties of physics but radiology would definitely need to understand the machines they are working with.

Also, because chemistry is a basis for biology, physics is also a basis for chemistry. It's pretty relative.

I feel like the type "Verbal Reasoning" required by a doctor is more so relative to the reasoning in the BS passages than the VR passages. Of course I am biased because I score well on BS and not well on VR, but it seems like everyone's reasons as to why VR is important for being a doctor relates more to the BS than the VR.

 

[Renaissance Man]

This thread: "VR is hard! I don't score well on it, so it must be useless/faulty..."

 

[Midifelder10]

This thread: "VR is hard! I don't score well on it, so it must be useless/faulty..."

Why not "I am a smart #$%, I have no proof but I will pretend earth is flat."

 

[Midifelder10]

Verbal and Physics just why, Biology and Chemistry I totally get, but do they teach you physics again in Medical School no, sure you should be familiar with some concepts and topics but 2 semesters worth I dont think so , they make you take physics as a pre req, but not Anatomy & Physiology something is wrong here

Good point. If this type of verbal reasoning is so important why is it not a course in med school. They teach everything else. If they are so concerned why dont they have 5 or 6 courses along with clinicals.

 

[Renaissance Man]

Why not "I am a smart #$%, I have no proof but I will pretend earth is flat."

You have one random link. Some other poster had like 6 or something like that. I don't need proof...

"What purpose does VR serve on MCAT?" Well for you, it will serve as the subsection that kept you out of medical school. The number of volunteer hours and shadowing hours have no correlation on ability to learn in medical school either, but guess what? Everyone has to do it. I think VR is important, you don't. Either way, it is still 1/3 of your score. So just keep on telling us what's important for becoming a doctor and what isn't, premed.

 

[Temperature101]

You have one random link. Some other poster had like 6 or something like that. I don't need proof...

"What purpose does VR serve on MCAT?" Well for you, it will serve as the subsection that kept you out of medical school. The number of volunteer hours and shadowing hours have no correlation on ability to learn in medical school either, but guess what? Everyone has to do it. I think VR is important, you don't. Either way, it is still 1/3 of your score. So just keep on telling us what's important for becoming a doctor and what isn't, premed.

Do you really think that most of the foreign physicians can score 8+ in VR?

 

[Midifelder10]

Do you really think that most of the foreign physicians can score 8+ in VR?

Try more like 6+. I guess they dont understand the patients that is why no one shows up at their practice.
I am being polite but people are hurling abuse and that is not fair. Let us keep it civil.

 

[Midifelder10]

You have one random link. Some other poster had like 6 or something like that. I don't need proof...

"What purpose does VR serve on MCAT?" Well for you, it will serve as the subsection that kept you out of medical school. The number of volunteer hours and shadowing hours have no correlation on ability to learn in medical school either, but guess what? Everyone has to do it. I think VR is important, you don't. Either way, it is still 1/3 of your score. So just keep on telling us what's important for becoming a doctor and what isn't, premed.

My gripe is it should not be weighed that heavy.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

Do you really think that most of the foreign physicians can score 8+ in VR?

What foreign physicians?

You need to go to a US undergrad to get into a US medical school, and you PRETTY much need to go to a US med school to get a nice US residency. On top of that, you need a US residency to practice in the US.

You're now talking about a very small minority of physicians, who were already exceptional by being the top in their country (otherwise they wouldn't have been accepted to a US residency). This minority will also shrink in the future as residencies become more competitive.

 

[gtbROX]

This thread: "VR is hard! I don't score well on it, so it must be useless/faulty..."

This....
I feel that, with any of the sections of the mcat, the gifted few will achieve 13-15 (with or without much studying) and people who may be less gifted in any of the sections can potentially achieve 10-12 with diligence. I don't see any other explanation for the fact that I went from 6-8s to 9-11s (on AAMCs and EK 101 passages) over the course of 3 months of mcat studying. I study 5x more for VR than I do for sciences, but I have no right to complain about verbal because there is probably someone out there who scores 13-15s on verbal that spends most of their time struggling with BS/PS.
Verbal can be improved, convert the energy you expend complaining into studying for VR (since energy can be converted 🙂) and after a month or two I can guarantee you will see improvement.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

I scored 11's & 12's on my practice tests with the occasional 13. Haven't got the real scores back yet.

Most of VR is very logical and reasonable. Don't get me wrong on that. However, if you miss even 5-6 questions (12%-15%), you're already looking at an 11 at best. Thus, the potential cost of even just a few of their questions being legitimately debatable or ambiguous is extremely high.

Honestly, this is a problem with the entire test. The difference between an 11 and 12 is noticeable, but after a 12 it's pretty much all luck (given that it's usually just 1 or 2 questions).

My lowest score in VR was an 11 and my highest a 14. Similarly, my lowest in BS was an 11 and my highest a 14. When I made the jump from 11 to 12 I actually FELT like I had done better. From a 12 to 13 or 13 to 14 I just got lucky because I had seen some obscure fact somewhere before, outside of what I studied for the MCAT.

Maybe that's why most schools don't have MCAT averages above 36. I think at some level it's accepted that anything above a 12 is usually just luck.

 

[Bamfu]

Simple answer? Torture.

 

[Dianyla]

Good point. If this type of verbal reasoning is so important why is it not a course in med school. They teach everything else. If they are so concerned why dont they have 5 or 6 courses along with clinicals.

Because the level of verbal reasoning skill that medical schools want you to have is not something you can just teach in a couple of courses. It's the culmination of years of formative schooling, reading experience, and language processing. If you don't have at least a competent level of this skill going into medical school, everything will be so much harder for you. You cannot catch up in verbal while also trying to drink from the firehose of medical curriculum.

Medical schools don't want to admit large numbers of applicants who are more likely to struggle because they are limited by reading comprehension skills. Besides being a risky investment for them, it tarnishes their reputation. If everything else about you as an applicant is promising and you just happen to have a verbal score that's on the low side, there are some schools out there who will take a chance on you. Most schools are fairly forgiving of low verbal scores caused by having a primary language other than English.

 

[Midifelder10]

Because the level of verbal reasoning skill that medical schools want you to have is not something you can just teach in a couple of courses. It's the culmination of years of formative schooling, reading experience, and language processing. If you don't have at least a competent level of this skill going into medical school, everything will be so much harder for you. You cannot catch up in verbal while also trying to drink from the firehose of medical curriculum.

Medical schools don't want to admit large numbers of applicants who are more likely to struggle because they are limited by reading comprehension skills. Besides being a risky investment for them, it tarnishes their reputation. If everything else about you as an applicant is promising and you just happen to have a verbal score that's on the low side, there are some schools out there who will take a chance on you. Most schools are fairly forgiving of low verbal scores caused by having a primary language other than English.

Why odes someone assume that if you struggle at verbal you will struggle with scientific reading too? No proof just blind faith. Verbal does test some skill set granted but is that relevant?is that efficient?is that detrimental to med school education? The answer is resounding no to all those questions.

 

[Renaissance Man]

Do you really think that most of the foreign physicians can score 8+ in VR?

I didn't realize we were even talking about foreign physicians 😕. I think if they want to be able to attend a medical school in the USA, that they need to have a competitive MCAT score, VR included.

Try more like 6+. I guess they dont understand the patients that is why no one shows up at their practice.
I am being polite but people are hurling abuse and that is not fair. Let us keep it civil.

I was attempting to be civil, then you posted this referring back to me...

Why not "I am a smart #$%, I have no proof but I will pretend earth is flat."

Anyways, sorry you have issues with VR. The MCAT isn't going to change because of your beliefs about what is important. I feel like at this point the conversation is just going in circles. All I can say is that studying for the MCAT and VR is nothing compared to what you will have to do in the first block of medical school. Lots of things we do aren't "necessary" for becoming a doctor, but in the end there are those of us that do it anyways, and others that don't.

 

[Midifelder10]

All of you will make great doctors one day but let us approach this problem in a scientific manner. Is there any proof or publication that refutes the one I have shown which sort of negates the results of that study. Please support your answer with facts otherwise as far as i am concerned sun goes around earth and I will believe it crowd mentality is not scientific.

 

[Midifelder10]

I didn't realize we were even talking about foreign physicians 😕. I think if they want to be able to attend a medical school in the USA, that they need to have a competitive MCAT score, VR included.




I was attempting to be civil, then you posted this referring back to me...




Anyways, sorry you have issues with VR. The MCAT isn't going to change because of your beliefs about what is important. I feel like at this point the conversation is just going in circles. All I can say is that studying for the MCAT and VR is nothing compared to what you will have to do in the first block of medical school. Lots of things we do aren't "necessary" for becoming a doctor, but in the end there are those of us that do it anyways, and others that don't.

Sorry if I offended you. I really don't behave that way.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

All of you will make great doctors one day but let us approach this problem in a scientific manner. Is there any proof or publication that refutes the one I have shown which sort of negates the results of that study. Please support your answer with facts otherwise as far as i am concerned sun goes around earth and I will believe it crowd mentality is not scientific.

I posted a study for you, but you never mentioned it. A poster on the first page also posted a study.

Also, as I said before even YOUR study said there was a correlation. Weak correlation != no correlation.

Besides, as a scientist you should be able to admit that ONE study does not make a scientific fact.

EDIT: Here are the links to the two posts.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=13023843&postcount=45

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=13024124&postcount=48

 

[Dianyla]

Why odes someone assume that if you struggle at verbal you will struggle with scientific reading too? No proof just blind faith. Verbal does test some skill set granted but is that relevant?is that efficient?is that detrimental to med school education? The answer is resounding no to all those questions.

Well your mind seems pretty made up, but if you're interested in learning how verbal skills might possibly be useful in graduate education, here's a study:

Toward a Definition of Verbal Reasoning in Higher Education

This study is targeted more at the GRE and grad school, but I think it's highly relevant to the conversation about MCAT verbal and medical school. Page 11 in particular is a very good description of entry level reading skills and how they are different from more advanced critical reading skills.

 

[Midifelder10]

Well your mind seems pretty made up, but if you're interested in learning how verbal skills might possibly be useful in graduate education, here's a study:

Toward a Definition of Verbal Reasoning in Higher Education

This study is targeted more at the GRE and grad school, but I think it's highly relevant to the conversation about MCAT verbal and medical school. Page 11 in particular is a very good description of entry level reading skills and how they are different from more advanced critical reading skills.

Thanks for the link. Just a point of reference most of the engineering grad schools routinely drop the reading portion of GRE and only look at math for grad admissions. They know a certain sub set of students (foreign) struggle with verbal so it is deemed not relevant. Those kids tend to make great engineers/scientists with plenty of publications.

 

[Midifelder10]

I posted a study for you, but you never mentioned it. A poster on the first page also posted a study.

Also, as I said before even YOUR study said there was a correlation. Weak correlation != no correlation.

Besides, as a scientist you should be able to admit that ONE study does not make a scientific fact.

EDIT: Here are the links to the two posts.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=13023843&postcount=45

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=13024124&postcount=48

True but the study also mentioned that highest correlation was bs followed by ps and then verbal. In that sense according to the study it is least relevant.

This is not scientific but I have observed that on this forum students with psychology/humanities background score the highest on verbal. same for students with literature back ground. Does that mean their critical reasoning skills are better than physics/engineering/math major? They all are skilled just a different skill set.

 

[Dianyla]

Thanks for the link. Just a point of reference most of the engineering grad schools routinely drop the reading portion of GRE and only look at math for grad admissions. They know a certain sub set of students (foreign) struggle with verbal so it is deemed not relevant. Those kids tend to make great engineers/scientists with plenty of publications.

I know someone with a quite low verbal score who did get admitted to MD/PhD programs who was continually passed over by MD-only programs.

When reading most engineering/science research articles, you could probably understand it quite well by skimming through it and paying most of your attention to the numbers, equations, proofs, etc. That technique doesn't work as well with medical/clinical research papers.

 

[Renaissance Man]

Sorry if I offended you. I really don't behave that way.

No worries, my follow-up post was rash as well. I wish you luck on VR and your applications. Maybe try this link for VR help.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

True but the study also mentioned that highest correlation was bs followed by ps and then verbal. In that sense according to the study it is least relevant.

This is not scientific but I have observed that on this forum students with psychology/humanities background score the highest on verbal. same for students with literature back ground. Does that mean their critical reasoning skills are better than physics/engineering/math major? They all are skilled just a different skill set.

But there's still a correlation, so why throw it out completely. I was mostly referring to the study I posted about VR skills being more predictive of patient examination skills than the BS or PS sections.

Well I'm not a psychology or humanities major so I can't really answer that. However, the AMCAS data points out that it's not so simple. Actually, math/statistics majors tend to score highest in EVERY section of the MCAT. Physical science majors are not that far behind humanities majors, given that the SD for humanities is smaller than that of physical sciences even if the mean is higher.

https://www.aamc.org/download/161692/data/table18.pdf

Also as I said earlier, most of the people in my engineering classes would make great scientists but awful doctors. There's more to becoming a doctor than just brute skill in the sciences.

 

[Midifelder10]

But there's still a correlation, so why throw it out completely. I was mostly referring to the study I posted about VR skills being more predictive of patient examination skills than the BS or PS sections.

Well I'm not a psychology or humanities major so I can't really answer that. However, the AMCAS data points out that it's not so simple. Actually, math/statistics majors tend to score highest in EVERY section of the MCAT. Physical science majors are not that far behind humanities majors, given that the SD for humanities is smaller than that of physical sciences even if the mean is higher.

https://www.aamc.org/download/161692/data/table18.pdf

Also as I said earlier, most of the people in my engineering classes would make great scientists but awful doctors. There's more to becoming a doctor than just brute skill in the sciences.

Your first statement is something I can easily agree with as I have seen that data, verbal is directly correlated to better patient management.

Rest of the data only points to a correlation with BS.

Thanks! Off to work I go.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

Your first statement is something I can easily agree with as I have seen that data, verbal is directly correlated to better patient management.

Rest of the data only points to a correlation with BS.

Thanks! Off to work I go.

Really though, just start reading for fun and the next time you practice for VR you'll see your scores have dramatically improved without any "effort" on your part.

If I have to recommend something, I'd recommend Atul Gawande's books. He's a surgeon but also a great writer/storyteller! I've read almost everything he's written 🙂

 

[whoknows87]

What foreign physicians?

You need to go to a US undergrad to get into a US medical school, and you PRETTY much need to go to a US med school to get a nice US residency. On top of that, you need a US residency to practice in the US.

You're now talking about a very small minority of physicians, who were already exceptional by being the top in their country (otherwise they wouldn't have been accepted to a US residency). This minority will also shrink in the future as residencies become more competitive.

But you can still go to Medical School in another country and then all you have to do is take your steps, in most cases you actually save a year or 2, medical school in most countries with the exception of the US is 5-6 years and you graduate with a Bachelor of Medicine, in the US you need 4 years of useless undergrad+4 years of Medical School +Residency
I know quite a few Physicians who went to Medical School overseas all they have to do is pass their steps and score a residency in most cases they have no problems matching ( I'm not talking highly competitive residencies here although they get those too +high score +networking = anything is possible, and No they dont have to be exceptional top in their country , all you have to do is your USMLES for them it works out great , no serious debt + didn't have to deal with the MCAT

 

[LuciusVorenus]

But you can still go to Medical School in another country and then all you have to do is take your steps, in most cases you actually save a year or 2, medical school in most countries with the exception of the US is 5-6 years and you graduate with a Bachelor of Medicine, in the US you need 4 years of useless undergrad+4 years of Medical School +Residency
I know quite a few Physicians who went to Medical School overseas all they have to do is pass their steps and score a residency in most cases they have no problems matching ( I'm not talking highly competitive residencies here although they get those too +high score +networking = anything is possible, and No they dont have to be exceptional top in their country , all you have to do is your USMLES for them it works out great , no serious debt + didn't have to deal with the MCAT

I really doubt that US residencies are taking mediocre students from foreign countries. The students are exceptional for the field they are applying to. Besides, I still doubt they would get the residency slot without the ability to communicate effectively in English. Again though, this group is in the minority anyways so it's not really TOO relevant to the discussion.

Also I'm kind of meh about the idea of skipping undergrad and going straight to medical school. I'm from a country where that's the norm, and people there complain that you don't really know what you want to do straight out of high school so it's kind of unfair to put that kind of pressure on kids at that age. I have a lot of doctors in my family who wish they'd done something else once they actually turned 19/20.

It's a good path to take if you're interested in nothing but FP and IM, but more competitive specialties become almost impossible. I don't feel like finding the data, but the AMA publishes the number of IMGs per residency type and their STEP scores and it becomes obvious that you're making your life A LOT harder just to skip the MCAT.

 

[whoknows87]

in all honesty what do we gain from undergrad? the first 2 years are basics the last 2 years you get into upper level sciences+electives , so really its 2 years of sciences+ 4 years of Medical school.. the folks I was talking about were good students for sure , but they were not the top of their class, they came here took a Kaplan course, prepared for the USMLES did a bunch of MCQs and took the test . all scored residencies few years ago they recently wrapped up their residencies and are living the dream they still say it takes too long to become a Doctor in the US+ The Debt, I was just pointing that out that's all

 

[LuciusVorenus]

in all honesty what do we gain from undergrad? the first 2 years are basics the last 2 years you get into upper level sciences+electives , so really its 2 years of sciences+ 4 years of Medical school.. the folks I was talking about were good students for sure , but they were not the top of their class, they came here took a Kaplan course, prepared for the USMLES did a bunch of MCQs and took the test . all scored residencies few years ago they recently wrapped up their residencies and are living the dream they still say it takes too long to become a Doctor in the US+ The Debt, I was just pointing that out that's all

I agree that undergrad can be shortened by maybe 2 years (after all you only need 2 years of sciences to take the MCAT), but I just mostly think that 18 is way too young to start medical school. That's just my opinion though. Obviously some people mature faster. I'm also kind of biased because I thoroughly enjoyed the engineering background I got from undergrad.

There's also all those people who messed up in high school (it's a dangerous, dangerous time for a lot of people haha) but turned it around in college. When a BS/BA is required for medical school you're kind of getting a "second chance" after high school, something you'd never get if you were applying straight out of high school.

Again, it's really just a matter of opinion though.

 

[CaribbeanBlue]

This....
I feel that, with any of the sections of the mcat, the gifted few will achieve 13-15 (with or without much studying) and people who may be less gifted in any of the sections can potentially achieve 10-12 with diligence. I don't see any other explanation for the fact that I went from 6-8s to 9-11s (on AAMCs and EK 101 passages) over the course of 3 months of mcat studying. I study 5x more for VR than I do for sciences, but I have no right to complain about verbal because there is probably someone out there who scores 13-15s on verbal that spends most of their time struggling with BS/PS.
Verbal can be improved, convert the energy you expend complaining into studying for VR (since energy can be converted 🙂) and after a month or two I can guarantee you will see improvement.

You can't guarantee that. Just because it works for you doesn't mean it will work for everyone else.

 

[gtbROX]

You can't guarantee that. Just because it works for you doesn't mean it will work for everyone else.

I can't guarantee that premeds study both efficiently and consistently for verbal either. I can, however, guarantee that I have, and I've been seeing results. This is enough to disprove the statement that verbal is completely impossible to improve on. As for it's usefulness as a medical school diagnostic, please refer to the posts that included links/citations of research.

 

[CaribbeanBlue]

I can't guarantee that premeds study both efficiently and consistently for verbal either. I can, however, guarantee that I have, and I've been seeing results. This is enough to disprove the statement that verbal is completely impossible to improve on. As for it's usefulness as a medical school diagnostic, please refer to the posts that included links/citations of research.

I don't doubt the usefulness of the section. I also don't doubt your study habits being efficient either. I just don't believe there are any guarantees with this section. I believe if you study enough for PS/BS it is possible to pull a 10 from freestanding questions + questions requiring knowledge in the passages.

As for verbal, perhaps I am a minority against the consensus that you can improve VR to a score of a 10 with efficient studying in 2-3 months. I can assure anyone that I studied my *** off for this section and the best I have been scoring is an 8-9. I have studied for this test for about a year now (took a couple months off after sept 2011 exam and in april/may of 2012), but I took the TPR class, used TPRH, EK (twice), Kaplan, all TPR/AAMC practice exams, every practice passage available online for TPR student tools, all the Cracking and Review FL exams online and my results have been an increase from a VR diagnostic score of 5 to about an 8 with about 300 passages of practice and review of why I missed each question.

I have plateaued around an 8 +/-1 for VR over the last 5-6 FL exams. But I believe that I am a minority because I honestly never read books ever. I only sparknoted them or looked up summaries online to ace english courses in HS. Whenever I read anything pertaining to class, I would skim or accumulate main ideas from friends etc. The only reason I have the confidence to get into medical school is because my sGPA>cGPA>3.6 and have basically excelled in anything that didn't have to do with critical reading skills up to this point. When I took the SAT's, I scored in the mid 400s in VR yet was still admitted to a top 50 national university, so I sort of blew off the significance of critical reading.

If I were to point out the problem, it isn't my study habits for this VR section. Although, I realize even attempting to get into a US medical school that most of my peers excel in critical reading more than I do. I have just been able to waiver any critical reading up to this point and started it when I started studying for this exam. I will be happy with an 8 on the real exam since my science scores have been 12+ on practice.

So with that I just don't think it is possible for EVERYONE to obtain a certain score with enough efficient practice on VR. Perhaps for people like me, I could crack out a 10 if I had access to about 1000 more passages to practice for another 2 years, but most of us don't really have the time or money to do so.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

I have plateaued around an 8 +/-1 for VR over the last 5-6 FL exams. But I believe that I am a minority because I honestly never read books ever. I only sparknoted them or looked up summaries online to ace english courses in HS. Whenever I read anything pertaining to class, I would skim or accumulate main ideas from friends etc. The only reason I have the confidence to get into medical school is because my sGPA>cGPA>3.6 and have basically excelled in anything that didn't have to do with critical reading skills up to this point. When I took the SAT's, I scored in the mid 400s in VR yet was still admitted to a top 50 national university, so I sort of blew off the significance of critical reading.

...

So with that I just don't think it is possible for EVERYONE to obtain a certain score with enough efficient practice on VR. Perhaps for people like me, I could crack out a 10 if I had access to about 1000 more passages to practice for another 2 years, but most of us don't really have the time or money to do so.

I think what most people are not paying attention to in this thread is that the only practice for VR is reading. If you haven't been reading over the years, then you haven't been practicing for VR. Practice passages/hints/tests are only to improve your timing as far as I'm concerned. It's not like BS or PS where you're reviewing content.

I really believe that if you had spent the year reading instead of doing practice passages, you would have seen an improvement in your score.

 

[CaribbeanBlue]

I think what most people are not paying attention to in this thread is that the only practice for VR is reading. If you haven't been reading over the years, then you haven't been practicing for VR. Practice passages/hints/tests are only to improve your timing as far as I'm concerned. It's not like BS or PS where you're reviewing content.

I really believe that if you had spent the year reading instead of doing practice passages, you would have seen an improvement in your score.

You believe, heh. When I said I took those gaps of months, I spent the time reading philosophy as well as books earlier this year. It did improve my reading comprehension a bit because when I would get 5's and 6's a year ago, it was usually because I did not understand the passages at all sometimes. My issue isn't really reading comprehension at this point. I think there is a difference between critical reading within a time crunch versus reading comprehension. I think the former has more to do with a good solid short term memory and a strong hold on the author's argument so that if outside information was presented, one could easily tell, without doubt, how the author would feel about that information.

When I said "I honestly never read books ever" I meant "read" in the past tense when I was in HS and throughout undergrad, except for science textbooks, of course.

 

[Dianyla]

I think what most people are not paying attention to in this thread is that the only practice for VR is reading.

This. 👍

And not just passive light reading. I mean, sinking your teeth into deep meaty chunks tearing it apart reading.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

You believe, heh. When I said I took those gaps of months, I spent the time reading philosophy as well as books earlier this year. It did improve my reading comprehension a bit because when I would get 5's and 6's a year ago, it was usually because I did not understand the passages at all sometimes. My issue isn't really reading comprehension at this point.

When I said "I honestly never read books ever" I meant "read" in the past tense when I was in HS and throughout undergrad, except for science textbooks, of course.

A 5-6 to a 8-9 is actually a huge improvement for just one year of reading. The test is basically curved on a log scale so the differences between the lower scores are huge while the differences between the higher scores are minimal. So it sounds like the year of reading worked? Who can say, maybe another year of reading would have helped you over that 9 to 11 bump? Like I said earlier, after 11 it's allll luck. Especially on a test that's only 40 questions.

 

[CaribbeanBlue]

A 5-6 to a 8-9 is actually a huge improvement for just one year of reading. The test is basically curved on a log scale so the differences between the lower scores are huge while the differences between the higher scores are minimal. So it sounds like the year of reading worked? Who can say, maybe another year of reading would have helped you over that 9 to 11 bump? Like I said earlier, after 11 it's allll luck. Especially on a test that's only 40 questions.

I definitely agree. Although, I basically took 3 months (no job, no school, no social life) to prep for this exam one last time because that's all I could afford really, haha. I'll be in a tight financial issues with other external issues to where if I were to retake for the 4th time, I wouldn't nearly have as much time to study as I did this summer and am sure my PS and BS wouldn't be as strong as they are now. It will be a risk, but I am planning on just taking this score on 9/7 and applying to medical schools next june and hope for the best.

I will keep reading books because I feel like I missed on out a whole world out there with reading. Who knows, maybe I will attempt this test again one day when I have the time and if they don't care about another score on my record, haha.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

I definitely agree. Although, I basically took 3 months (no job, no school, no social life) to prep for this exam one last time because that's all I could afford really, haha. I'll be in a tight financial issues with other external issues to where if I were to retake for the 4th time, I wouldn't nearly have as much time to study as I did this summer and am sure my PS and BS wouldn't be as strong as they are now. It will be a risk, but I am planning on just taking this score on 9/7 and applying to medical schools next june and hope for the best.

I will keep reading books because I feel like I missed on out a whole world out there with reading. Who knows, maybe I will attempt this test again one day when I have the time and if they don't care about another score on my record, haha.

If you're scoring around a +/- 8 then you're fine. The average for accepted students is around a 9 so if you score a 9 it definitely won't keep you out of med school. An 8 won't either probably. You might not get into your top 25 dream school, but there's always residency.

Here's what I did for VR on my practice tests/real test if it helps.

1. Never fall for the trap of reading the same passage/most of a passage more than once. Try to read the whole thing in 6 minutes, even if it means you have to skip over-convoluted sentences. Sentences where you know you got nothing out of because of how convoluted they were you should highlight. Even if you skimmed it, chances are you got enough information to answer 3-4 of the questions correctly.

2. Princeton Review says you should skip the hardest passage, but I disagree. The reason is because even the HARDEST passages have 2 sometimes 3 questions you can answer just by getting the general gist of the passage after your first run through. Ask yourself if it's worth skipping those 2-3 easy questions to have enough time to guess on 4-5 HARD questions you know you only have a ~60% chance of getting right even with extra time. So if after the first few sentences you think you've reached a hard passage, don't skip and don't start re-reading. Just power through and do your best.

3. For the questions you don't get right away after your first read through, USE THE CROSS OUT FEATURE (I'll explain why later) to eliminate answers you know for sure are wrong, then make your best guess. MARK THESE QUESTIONS.

4. There will be 1 or maybe even 2 questions a passage where you have no idea after your first read through. Make an educated guess, don't cross anything out if you aren't 95% sure it's wrong, MARK IT, then move on. Always make at least SOME guess before you skip in case you run out of time later. Even if you have no idea, you still have a 25% chance of getting it right (that might be 1 out of 4 if you guess on 4!).

5. If you've done the first 4 things, you should have around 10-15 minutes for review. Here's where the crossing out/marking come in. First go through marked questions that have choices crossed out. If you have any sentences highlighted, re-read them and try again. Try your best to answer these questions in 30 seconds. It should be easier the second time around since you've had a break from it, and now some of the choices are already crossed out.

6. Once you've gone through all the marked/crossed out questions, go through the marked/random guess questions. Again, re-read highlighted sentences and if you have time even entire paragraphs that are relevant to the question. Depending on how much time you have left, spend as much time as you can on these questions. If you only have 2 minutes left and 4-5 of these kinds of questions then don't try to speed through all of them. Give yourself 30-seconds to a minute and try your best on SOME rather than half-assing ALL of them.

Really the entire MCAT is about developing a strategy to maximize your score. Just know when to call it quits on a question, when to mark for a better shot later, and when to spend that extra 20 seconds to get the right answer.

Just don't panic, take a break after PS, and do your best! Remember that as long as the rest of your application is good, nothing short of an abysmal VR score will keep you from being a doctor.

 

[CaribbeanBlue]

If you're scoring around a +/- 8 then you're fine. The average for accepted students is around a 9 so if you score a 9 it definitely won't keep you out of med school. An 8 won't either probably. You might not get into your top 25 dream school, but there's always residency.

Here's what I did for VR on my practice tests/real test if it helps.

1. Never fall for the trap of reading the same passage/most of a passage more than once. Try to read the whole thing in 6 minutes, even if it means you have to skip over-convoluted sentences. Sentences where you know you got nothing out of because of how convoluted they were you should highlight. Even if you skimmed it, chances are you got enough information to answer 3-4 of the questions correctly.

2. Princeton Review says you should skip the hardest passage, but I disagree. The reason is because even the HARDEST passages have 2 sometimes 3 questions you can answer just by getting the general gist of the passage after your first run through. Ask yourself if it's worth skipping those 2-3 easy questions to have enough time to guess on 4-5 HARD questions you know you only have a ~60% chance of getting right even with extra time. So if after the first few sentences you think you've reached a hard passage, don't skip and don't start re-reading. Just power through and do your best.

3. For the questions you don't get right away after your first read through, USE THE CROSS OUT FEATURE (I'll explain why later) to eliminate answers you know for sure are wrong, then make your best guess. MARK THESE QUESTIONS.

4. There will be 1 or maybe even 2 questions a passage where you have no idea after your first read through. Make an educated guess, don't cross anything out if you aren't 95% sure it's wrong, MARK IT, then move on. Always make at least SOME guess before you skip in case you run out of time later. Even if you have no idea, you still have a 25% chance of getting it right (that might be 1 out of 4 if you guess on 4!).

5. If you've done the first 4 things, you should have around 10-15 minutes for review. Here's where the crossing out/marking come in. First go through marked questions that have choices crossed out. If you have any sentences highlighted, re-read them and try again. Try your best to answer these questions in 30 seconds. It should be easier the second time around since you've had a break from it, and now some of the choices are already crossed out.

6. Once you've gone through all the marked/crossed out questions, go through the marked/random guess questions. Again, re-read highlighted sentences and if you have time even entire paragraphs that are relevant to the question. Depending on how much time you have left, spend as much time as you can on these questions. If you only have 2 minutes left and 4-5 of these kinds of questions then don't try to speed through all of them. Give yourself 30-seconds to a minute and try your best on SOME rather than half-assing ALL of them.

Really the entire MCAT is about developing a strategy to maximize your score. Just know when to call it quits on a question, when to mark for a better shot later, and when to spend that extra 20 seconds to get the right answer.

Just don't panic, take a break after PS, and do your best! Remember that as long as the rest of your application is good, nothing short of an abysmal VR score will keep you from being a doctor.

Your strategy sounds similar to the one I have sort have developed (after experimenting with TPR/Kaplan/EK strategies). The part where we differ is where you have that 10-15 extra minutes and I basically reach passage #7 with about 7-8 minutes left.

I have made it a goal to finish reading the passage around 4-4.5 mins and then finish the questions in 4 minutes so a total passage + questions in 8 minutes.

I run into the problem of your #4 a lot. I will be able to cross out 2 questions easily but then sometimes I have a hard time with my educated guesses and I will fall into the trap of going back to the passage too much. My 9's have been from times that I finish the test comfortably, but I have never been able to have time to go back to marked questions just because the questions hold me up time-wise.

Your note about knowing when to spend an extra 20 seconds or when to call it quits I feel is totally key with me because I really want to keep from missing more than 10 out of the 40 questions. I only really have one more day to practice verbal before my test, but I will try to stay firm with when to move on just to conserve time. That could be the deal breaker.

Thanks for the post and good luck to you!

 

[LuciusVorenus]

Your strategy sounds similar to the one I have sort have developed (after experimenting with TPR/Kaplan/EK strategies). The part where we differ is where you have that 10-15 extra minutes and I basically reach passage #7 with about 7-8 minutes left.

I have made it a goal to finish reading the passage around 4-4.5 mins and then finish the questions in 4 minutes so a total passage + questions in 8 minutes.

I run into the problem of your #4 a lot. I will be able to cross out 2 questions easily but then sometimes I have a hard time with my educated guesses and I will fall into the trap of going back to the passage too much. My 9's have been from times that I finish the test comfortably, but I have never been able to have time to go back to marked questions just because the questions hold me up time-wise.

Your note about knowing when to spend an extra 20 seconds or when to call it quits I feel is totally key with me because I really want to keep from missing more than 10 out of the 40 questions. I only really have one more day to practice verbal before my test, but I will try to stay firm with when to move on just to conserve time. That could be the deal breaker.

Thanks for the post and good luck to you!

Good luck!

 

[Totle]

From my understanding, verbal reasoning is your "common sense" test. As a doctor, it isn't enough to regurgitate a medical textbook, but rather you need to be able to take in new information that you aren't necessarily familiar with and use logic to extrapolate what you can from it. As a result, the verbal reasoning is like an indicator of what happens when a patient comes into your office. They aren't going to pull out charts, graphs, and tables for you to interpret, but rather are going to provide information in a generally non scientific way, and you need to be able to tease it apart and gather necessary data. Simply put, anyone can memorize a textbook, but there's no such course for the VR. The only way to study for it is by doing passages over and over again and building experience. Consequently, med schools value the VR score because it is indicative of how well you think, not just how much you can memorize.

 

[Midifelder10]

From my understanding, verbal reasoning is your "common sense" test. As a doctor, it isn't enough to regurgitate a medical textbook, but rather you need to be able to take in new information that you aren't necessarily familiar with and use logic to extrapolate what you can from it. As a result, the verbal reasoning is like an indicator of what happens when a patient comes into your office. They aren't going to pull out charts, graphs, and tables for you to interpret, but rather are going to provide information in a generally non scientific way, and you need to be able to tease it apart and gather necessary data. Simply put, anyone can memorize a textbook, but there's no such course for the VR. The only way to study for it is by doing passages over and over again and building experience. Consequently, med schools value the VR score because it is indicative of how well you think, not just how much you can memorize.

It is something but not common sense or intelligence. Rubiks cube is intelligence shakespear is not. My chem,phy,bio teachers could give me some unknown info and test my knowledge but using verbal as a medium to do it does not make sense.

 

[Renaissance Man]

It is something but not common sense or intelligence. Rubiks cube is intelligence shakespear is not. My chem,phy,bio teachers could give me some unknown info and test my knowledge but using verbal as a medium to do it does not make sense.

I hate to jump back in, but after reading this...no, just no. I can't help but comment. If you truly believe that ShakespearE*'s writings didn't take intelligence to craft. Or if you think understanding/thinking critically/writing about Shakespeare doesn't require intelligence than you really need to experience more of the world.

Solving a Rubik's is an algorithm. Everyone from children, to the blind, to a computer can do it. I personally, have never bothered to learn it, and I can't even come close to solving one. Knowing science (or memorizing things) doesn't mean you are intelligent. In fact, you can be the smartest man in the world but if you can't express yourself cohesively (writing and speaking) than it doesn't matter.

I always thought my philosophy and literature professors were some of the most intelligent men and women at my university. Come on now!

 

[MDforMee]

If you can perform on physical and biological section why is verbal weighed so heavy. If you are doing fine in other sections you do understand the language, can communicate with the patients. This section has kept some good students who wanted to be in med school from pursuing their dreams. It is so counterproductive and inefficient that people are taking this test multiple times just to get in.

Example A; P 11, V 7, BS 11 29
Example B: P 9, V 13, B 9 31

Who has a better chance of success in Med school? My vote A.

I don't want to start crap but a honest intellectual discussion only.

If you elect yourself to have the authority to decide whether certain people are qualified to become physicians, then you should be accountable for knowing what it takes to succeed as a physician.

Being a successful physician depends on staying up to date with current research in the various specialties.

Being a successful physician also depends on reading TONS of material, and being able to quickly, and accurately make decisions based on said material.

In my opinion, your emotions about your own performance on the verbal section of the MCAT are influencing your judgments concerning the importance of the verbal section on the MCAT.

To poker players, it's called playing on "tilt."

Try reading an issue of JAMA, cover to cover, and get back to us.