What to do next....

[JenHi]

I scrolled months, even into years of old conversations about people not passing the NAVLE. I was able to gain some information but ultimately decided I want to post something more recent and relevant in case things changed at all.

I NEVER thought I would exist in such a present time but here I am several attempts later and still have not passed the NAVLE. I hit my highest score 2 tests ago and now just been getting worse and worse. My desire, passion, and drive are gone. This last testing time frame, I looked into jobs I could do without passing the NAVLE and let me tell you, I could not find much or most denied me at the front door. I live in California so things might differ here than compared to other states, so I am hoping to get some guidance that can pertain to living in California and not wanting to relocate.

I hate how late we get our results that the deadline to sign up again is within a 1-2 weeks span so I have to make choices. Do I sign up again and spend all this money or do I skip a session and aim to take them in December? (This was just internal thoughts I wanted to type up and share.)

Ultimately the goal of this post isn't to get told its okay not to pass and not to be hard on myself. What can I do career wise? What jobs could I apply for with my DVM degree but not passing the NAVLE? Should I take courses to get certified in something that might help me like physical therapy, acupuncture, etc? Surely, any tips on best study sources for the NAVLE would be appreciated but I am beyond that as I have tried many sites, services, and just have spent way too much. I can't spend anymore. Part of me even thinks maybe I need to career shift but with the debt we all end with, I don't think I can find a job outside my degree to pay for such a debt and not be told I am over qualifying because of the DVM degree.

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[battie]

I'm sorry you're going through this. <3 A couple of things:

1. Depends on how many times you've tested and your state laws. Some states limit how many times you can take the NAVLE before getting licensed. Look into that information.

2. You do not have to be licensed to work for the USDA. A close friend in the class below me went this route after failing the NAVLE and actually really enjoys her job now. @SkiOtter might know more details than me on the pertinent info.

3. If you choose to attempt the NAVLE again, the ICVA has a long document of everything that could potentially be on that test. You could use that document to make your own study guides using the Merck vet manual and other such resources.

 

[SkiOtter]

She works for the food safety inspection service as a public health vet. She just started getting to work on her own and be the lead on during her shift. She started in September and so far is LOVING it. She was NOT initially interested in anything to do with large animal at all but took the leap because it meant she was still working as a veterinarian vs having to work as a tech while studying for her next navle (her state didn’t allow you to work as a vet under another vets license, but some do but you then must pass navle next round). She is still planning to retake it, but it will be a lot less stressful for her with studying and actually taking it because her future job no longer rides on this one stupid test.
Here’s a bit of info about FSIS. She does have a long commute (a bit over an hour) currently because her and her husband haven’t moved out closer to her plant yet, but that’s the eventual plan.

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/careers/career-profiles/public-health-veterinarian-phv

 

[SkiOtter]

Fair warning though. Pay isn’t the highest but does increase on the GS scale and I think you get an increase at least yearly(don’t quote me on that, I don’t work for the government). My friend is fine with the lower pay because the benefits are good though.
Since it IS the government, they do move at a fairly slow pace with hiring though, so if you’re heavily considering this route and wanting to start closer to when you graduate, I’d apply before graduation just to get the process started.

 

[SkiOtter]

Also, if you haven’t heard about it yet, there’s a Facebook support group for people who didn’t pass. This article has the info of the person you contact to get added, if you’re interested in joining to commiserate with people in the same position and plan for the future, whether that’s retakes and studying/tips or job ideas (because I’m sure there’s people in there who needed to find a job they could do without a license).

SAVMA's The Vet Gazette - Main - A letter about the NAVLE

This month's Wellness Spotlight was written by our past SAVMA president, Matt Holland, offering su...

thevetgazette.com

 

[JenHi]

I'm sorry you're going through this. <3 A couple of things:

1. Depends on how many times you've tested and your state laws. Some states limit how many times you can take the NAVLE before getting licensed. Look into that information.

2. You do not have to be licensed to work for the USDA. A close friend in the class below me went this route after failing the NAVLE and actually really enjoys her job now. @SkiOtter might know more details than me on the pertinent info.

3. If you choose to attempt the NAVLE again, the ICVA has a long document of everything that could potentially be on that test. You could use that document to make your own study guides using the Merck vet manual and other such resources.

California has no limit...luckily but I do know some states do like Arizona (off the top of my head). I know if I were to ever move to another state in the future all these attempts may haunt me but I don't plan to live CA.

I have looked into that actually. I was told its a great option for those without a license. I have no desire at all to work with livestock but my options are limited so I can't be picky haha. Ill look back into that and see if there is options in my state. I know when I looked last, there was nothing available but maybe there are some places to apply to now. As well, I will reach out to your friend.

I appreciate that information. I know which one you speak of. I actually used it to guide my studies that way I know what diseases, and such should at least be focused more on since there is so much out there.

 

[JenHi]

She works for the food safety inspection service as a public health vet. She just started getting to work on her own and be the lead on during her shift. She started in September and so far is LOVING it. She was NOT initially interested in anything to do with large animal at all but took the leap because it meant she was still working as a veterinarian vs having to work as a tech while studying for her next navle (her state didn’t allow you to work as a vet under another vets license, but some do but you then must pass navle next round). She is still planning to retake it, but it will be a lot less stressful for her with studying and actually taking it because her future job no longer rides on this one stupid test.
Here’s a bit of info about FSIS. She does have a long commute (a bit over an hour) currently because her and her husband haven’t moved out closer to her plant yet, but that’s the eventual plan.

https://www.fsis.usda.gov/careers/career-profiles/public-health-veterinarian-phv

Glad to hear she is similar to me and had no desire working with large animals but seem to find a liking to it. I will definitely look into this again and see what I can local to me. I've already graduated so I am worried my time away from schooling and clinics will hinder me when I apply to places. I had tried to be hired at a vet assistant or something close to that but I kept getting denied and time kept passing sadly. I'm definitely not in a good spot right now but I am going to keep applying and trying. I just don't want my degree to go lacking and I never truly get to use it.

I will check out this facebook group and see what information I can find. Hopefully find something useful that pertains to me. Thanks again for responding. I appreciate anything at this point.

 

[SkiOtter]

Glad to hear she is similar to me and had no desire working with large animals but seem to find a liking to it. I will definitely look into this again and see what I can local to me. I've already graduated so I am worried my time away from schooling and clinics will hinder me when I apply to places. I had tried to be hired at a vet assistant or something close to that but I kept getting denied and time kept passing sadly. I'm definitely not in a good spot right now but I am going to keep applying and trying. I just don't want my degree to go lacking and I never truly get to use it.

I will check out this facebook group and see what information I can find. Hopefully find something useful that pertains to me. Thanks again for responding. I appreciate anything at this point.

I think it’s more similar to necropsy and looking for weirdness on carcasses and deciding whether to condemn it or not and looking at animals as they walk into the building and just making sure none look visibly sick. I know that’s not *all* she does, but those are some of the main things. You don’t need to do any sort of treatment of animals or herd health or anything like if you were an actual large animal vet so it’s def a decent option and not a ton to do with actual large animal med.

 

[HopefulVet2]

I’m so sorry you’re going through this. But NVA has a post-graduation NAVLE prep program where non-licensed DVMs can get paid for 6-12months in a clinical setting while concurrently studying for the NAVLE. Idk anyone who has been through the program before but it’s worthwhile to look into. They seem to be mostly in the Midwest but may have positions elsewhere.

 

[JenHi]

I think it’s more similar to necropsy and looking for weirdness on carcasses and deciding whether to condemn it or not and looking at animals as they walk into the building and just making sure none look visibly sick. I know that’s not *all* she does, but those are some of the main things. You don’t need to do any sort of treatment of animals or herd health or anything like if you were an actual large animal vet so it’s def a decent option and not a ton to do with actual large animal med.

I had assumed it would be carcass inspection. I thought about looking into necropsy type job, but I think I need additional schooling for that and can't just get a job for that without having pass the NAVLE. I was relatively good at it during my clinical year but then again that year has passed some time ago. Still no luck in getting an interview at least. I will have to keep applying and looking.

 

[JenHi]

I’m so sorry you’re going through this. But NVA has a post-graduation NAVLE prep program where non-licensed DVMs can get paid for 6-12months in a clinical setting while concurrently studying for the NAVLE. Idk anyone who has been through the program before but it’s worthwhile to look into. They seem to be mostly in the Midwest but may have positions elsewhere.

Oh....okay....this is new information to me. It might be because its most for the midwest and I am not living there but I am going to 100% look into this and see if it works out for me. THANK YOU. I hope I am still considered "post-graduation" to them because it has been awhile since I finished vet school sadly. Again, thank you.

 

[SkiOtter]

I had assumed it would be carcass inspection. I thought about looking into necropsy type job, but I think I need additional schooling for that and can't just get a job for that without having pass the NAVLE. I was relatively good at it during my clinical year but then again that year has passed some time ago. Still no luck in getting an interview at least. I will have to keep applying and looking.

I’d definitely consider looking into USDA jobs that don’t require a license. At least for her job/field with the USDA, there was a lot of training before she was the only vet on (she started mid-Sept and just got to be alone last week or the week before). Hope you find your path 💜

 

[britzen]

Federal vet here.

Anything in federal government is exempt from state licensing requirements. I assume state government veterinarians are too.

Honestly a lot of us don't work directly with animals that much - it's more disease management and paperwork than hands-on activities. I might put my hands on an animal a few times a month in my role. For some people its every day all day, and for some people it's never. Depends on the job.

Your options with no license are things related to public health or industry pretty much. You only need a license if you are treating animals. There are lots of Veterinary jobs that don't do that.

For FSIS, they are one of the very few government agencies that have the power to hire essentially on the same day. If you contact your local recruiter or the regional boss, they can inprocess you very quickly. Every other agency hires on an approximately 4-6 month timeline. FSIS makes a lot of overtime if you go that route too btw. Most of them make like $30K a year or more on top of their salary. They also have hiring bonuses and annual renention bonuses for some of their jobs.

The next round of USDA APHIS VS jobs will post in a few weeks. If I remember, I'll post a link here, but you can also stalk usajobs.com

In theory the pay is low, but for what they pay into my pension, 401K matching, student loan forgiveness, and very cheap but very good health insurance... it's actually worth quite a lot. I ran the numbers at some point and the number I came up with was that a private company would need to pay me at least 30K a year more to make up for the monetary value of my benefits.

(Seriously on the Healthcare though - someone I know just had a $18,000 hospital stay and they paid a grand total of $300 dollars out of pocket. And our insurance only costs like $2K per year.)

I also get to live somewhere very cheap - I got offered a job to work for a private Corp in a large city that would have paid me $45,000 more per year than I make now. To get equivalent housing to what we currently own, it would have cost us $36K more per year in housing costs, so honestly, the salary was close to a wash after taxes unless we wanted to downsize significantly. They also offered me a large bonus - that'll be a wash eventually too when compared to the value of what the government is going to do for my student loans.

I also have a great work life balance. I've got time to hit the gym every day or do hobbies, make healthy meals, relax and spend time with family, get 8 hours of sleep a night, etc.

At my level (more than 3 years in govt) I also get 44 paid days off a year - 4 full weeks of vacation, 13 sick days, and 11 federal holidays. All combined, it's up to 8-9 weeks per year if you used it all. We also get 12 weeks of paid time off for maternity leave if that's something you think you'll use.

(We often also get random bonus time off too - usually a 2 hour early release on the Friday before a holiday, and we got an extra day off this year during Christmas week just for funsies.)

Happy to answer questions on the thread or in pm. I'm very happy in my job, and glad I turned down all the private practice jobs I got offered at the end of vet school.

(For the record though, I do legitimately love regulatory things, epidemiology, and foreign trade issues... It was my intended path from the beginning of vet school. So its not like I dislike any actual part of my day job. If you really love clinical work, it may not be a great fit for you. But it is a way to earn doctor level money without having to go back to school or change job fields completely.)

 

[JenHi]

Federal vet here.

Anything in federal government is exempt from state licensing requirements. I assume state government veterinarians are too.

Honestly a lot of us don't work directly with animals that much - it's more disease management and paperwork than hands-on activities. I might put my hands on an animal a few times a month in my role. For some people its every day all day, and for some people it's never. Depends on the job.

Your options with no license are things related to public health or industry pretty much. You only need a license if you are treating animals. There are lots of Veterinary jobs that don't do that.

For FSIS, they are one of the very few government agencies that have the power to hire essentially on the same day. If you contact your local recruiter or the regional boss, they can inprocess you very quickly. Every other agency hires on an approximately 4-6 month timeline. FSIS makes a lot of overtime if you go that route too btw. Most of them make like $30K a year or more on top of their salary. They also have hiring bonuses and annual renention bonuses for some of their jobs.

The next round of USDA APHIS VS jobs will post in a few weeks. If I remember, I'll post a link here, but you can also stalk usajobs.com

In theory the pay is low, but for what they pay into my pension, 401K matching, student loan forgiveness, and very cheap but very good health insurance... it's actually worth quite a lot. I ran the numbers at some point and the number I came up with was that a private company would need to pay me at least 30K a year more to make up for the monetary value of my benefits.

(Seriously on the Healthcare though - someone I know just had a $18,000 hospital stay and they paid a grand total of $300 dollars out of pocket. And our insurance only costs like $2K per year.)

I also get to live somewhere very cheap - I got offered a job to work for a private Corp in a large city that would have paid me $45,000 more per year than I make now. To get equivalent housing to what we currently own, it would have cost us $36K more per year in housing costs, so honestly, the salary was close to a wash after taxes unless we wanted to downsize significantly. They also offered me a large bonus - that'll be a wash eventually too when compared to the value of what the government is going to do for my student loans.

I also have a great work life balance. I've got time to hit the gym every day or do hobbies, make healthy meals, relax and spend time with family, get 8 hours of sleep a night, etc.

At my level (more than 3 years in govt) I also get 44 paid days off a year - 4 full weeks of vacation, 13 sick days, and 11 federal holidays. All combined, it's up to 8-9 weeks per year if you used it all. We also get 12 weeks of paid time off for maternity leave if that's something you think you'll use.

(We often also get random bonus time off too - usually a 2 hour early release on the Friday before a holiday, and we got an extra day off this year during Christmas week just for funsies.)

Happy to answer questions on the thread or in pm. I'm very happy in my job, and glad I turned down all the private practice jobs I got offered at the end of vet school.

(For the record though, I do legitimately love regulatory things, epidemiology, and foreign trade issues... It was my intended path from the beginning of vet school. So its not like I dislike any actual part of my day job. If you really love clinical work, it may not be a great fit for you. But it is a way to earn doctor level money without having to go back to school or change job fields completely.

Sorry for just getting around to respond to this. I've been on the mad hunt looking for jobs that could work. I will continue to dig through federal and government jobs. As mentioned, the postings are kind of bare and not often, so I try to look every morning to see something. It also might not help that I am limiting where I am willing to relocate to. I'd prefer to stay in California, but I might need to change my mindset soon and search further out. I GREATLY appreciate the description you went to in your response. It was honestly incredible and breathtaking haha

I can't say this was my intended path from the start to work in such a field. As times has moved on though I can't be picky. I need to get back into this work life (even though i do have job now but its self-employment). I have realized I love working with senior animals and animals with disabilities, but I know that would require a license if I wanted to work with them. I thought about somehow incorporating that passion with my current job (pet sitter/walker/drop-in visits) and opening my personal home to only accept watching pets who are older or with a disability since I do have the knowledge and skills to work with them but not a license.

Again, THANK YOU. If you have more information, you can always reach me personally or continue to message on this thread. I just don't really know what I need to know, if you get that. I'm having to look at paths I did not know exist since my mindset was to work at a small animal hospital since I was younger.

 

[JenHi]

I’d definitely consider looking into USDA jobs that don’t require a license. At least for her job/field with the USDA, there was a lot of training before she was the only vet on (she started mid-Sept and just got to be alone last week or the week before). Hope you find your path 💜

I am glad to hear she got alot of training prior to being on her own as I feel like I'd need guidance from the start. That way I can perform at peak performance.

 

[SkiOtter]

I am glad to hear she got alot of training prior to being on her own as I feel like I'd need guidance from the start. That way I can perform at peak performance.

Yeah, she definitely felt the same way. There was a lot of online training and a lot of training at her location and different locations (iirc she had to go to other plants to learn the different food animals even though she isn’t currently going to be working with any of them and her plant is just one species). She’s definitely very happy this is where she ended up and enjoys her job.

 

[JenHi]

I appreciate all the information you have been giving. I know we have been speaking back and forth for a bit now so I do appreciate it and hope one day I'll add some good news on this post.

 

[Airsrpay]

Another venue you might consider is working in the pharma/biotech industry. Some companies allow vets to fill positions like MST, clinical advisor etc. Granted it's not the most interesting job in the world (mostly administrative, keeping track of experiments, researching the literature, communication with clients etc.) but the pay and the benefits are usually quite good and it's a stable 9 to 5 kinda job...
It's not easy to find these jobs though as most employers look for MDs, pharmacists, engineers etc but they do exist out there.

 

[JenHi]

Another venue you might consider is working in the pharma/biotech industry. Some companies allow vets to fill positions like MST, clinical advisor etc. Granted it's not the most interesting job in the world (mostly administrative, keeping track of experiments, researching the literature, communication with clients etc.) but the pay and the benefits are usually quite good and it's a stable 9 to 5 kinda job...
It's not easy to find these jobs though as most employers look for MDs, pharmacists, engineers etc but they do exist out there.

It's now March and I have yet to find a job without my license. I have been applying but there aren't too many options here in California. I will look into this but as you said I might not be the top pick as there are many others with degrees better fit.

 

[britzen]

It's now March and I have yet to find a job without my license. I have been applying but there aren't too many options here in California. I will look into this but as you said I might not be the top pick as there are many others with degrees better fit.

USDA is currently hiring in CA (only 2 days left to apply though!)

Veterinary Medical Officer (Ready Response Corp)

As a Veterinary Medicals Officer within the Ready Response Corp of Veterinary Services, Field Operations, you will perform emergency management response work including deploying, coordinating, and managing response efforts to mitigate the spread of animal diseases. Your ingenuity, initiative...

www.usajobs.gov

 

[JenHi]

USDA is currently hiring in CA (only 2 days left to apply though!)

Veterinary Medical Officer (Ready Response Corp)

As a Veterinary Medicals Officer within the Ready Response Corp of Veterinary Services, Field Operations, you will perform emergency management response work including deploying, coordinating, and managing response efforts to mitigate the spread of animal diseases. Your ingenuity, initiative...

www.usajobs.gov

I'm sadly just seeing this response right now. I have been busy with my current job so haven't had much time to check this forum.

 

[SkiOtter]

I'm sadly just seeing this response right now. I have been busy with my current job so haven't had much time to check this forum.

Looks like they’ve extended it through 3/13 if you see this before then.

 

[SkiOtter]

The FSIS job is also open again through 3/30 with a handful of California locations.

Supervisory Veterinary Medical Officer / Public Health Veterinarian (SVMO/SPHV)-Multiple Incentives

•$20K Recruitment Incentive, Government Assisted Relocation, Creditable Service for Annual Leave Accrual Incentive and more available•<br> <br> - click <em><b>Learn more about this agency</b></em> below for more info<br> <br> <b>For specific position information on vacancies open...

www.usajobs.gov

 

[JenHi]

The FSIS job is also open again through 3/30 with a handful of California locations.

Supervisory Veterinary Medical Officer / Public Health Veterinarian (SVMO/SPHV)-Multiple Incentives

•$20K Recruitment Incentive, Government Assisted Relocation, Creditable Service for Annual Leave Accrual Incentive and more available•<br> <br> - click <em><b>Learn more about this agency</b></em> below for more info<br> <br> <b>For specific position information on vacancies open...

www.usajobs.gov

Saw the previous one too late but I got time for the FSIS job 🙂

 

[britzen]

Saw the previous one too late but I got time for the FSIS job 🙂

You can put a saved search into USAJobs that will email you every day with any new job openings btw!

If you use "0701" as your keyword search it will pull every veterinarian job currently open in the federal government. (0701 is the official job code for veterinarians in the federal government.)

You can also narrow the search down by geographic location so that it just pull jobs from California.

Good luck!

 

[cml156]

Reviving this forum as someone who is entering yet another NAVLE cycle attempt. I have ambitions of specializing but I can not seem to pass the dreaded NAVLE. I’m starting an academic internship next month that luckily didn’t require the NAVLE to enter the program, so I can still work toward my goal while trying to take the exam yet again. I know there’s also academic residencies that don’t require the NAVLE to enter those programs as well. It’s odd to me that you can enter the training programs without the NAVLE pass yet, because then what happens if you pass board exams but never pass the NAVLE? You aren’t able to practice but have the board certification. I’m assuming maybe you’d be able to teach the subject at a vet school or something, it’s just so odd to me. I’m trying to find other routes to still be happy with what I want goal wise and I have USDA on the list of backups but there has to be more possibilities I can add to my list of just in case careers outside of the USDA that seems to be the main fallback I see on multiple forums. It’s very hard to find information on this anywhere, it makes me feel so singled out since everyone else is able to pass the NAVLE and move on with their lives.

 

[JaynaAli]

While some residency training programs may not require you to be licensed because you’re covered under a faculty license, I think it would be really hard to sell yourself to a program without having passed NAVLE and I’d be surprised if programs are actually accepting people without it very often. I don’t believe that failing the NAVLE indicates that someone will be a poor doctor and I’ve known a couple of smart people who took two or even multiple attempts to pass NAVLE, but specialty board exams are even more difficult than NAVLE and require even more self-guided study and self-driven learning. If someone tests poorly and does/can not pass NAVLE, one has to question whether they’ll be able to pass boards at the end of their training, since that’s another very similar but usually even harder test. Residents who don’t pass boards reflect poorly on the program: a program’s boards pass rate was one question consistently asked during interviews. specialty training is so competitive and I think a program is going to take a candidate who has passed NAVLE over someone who hasn’t almost every time, even if it’s not technically a program requirement. Maybe if you have some tie or an “in” at a program they’d take the chance, but I bet most won’t. I am in a specialty where it’s a grey zone if we need to be licensed (path; I maintain a license and insurance but technically we provide interpretations only which may or may not be practicing and the DVMs which request our interpretations make the diagnosis if they agree with our interpretations) and my institution didn’t require residents to get a license, but I can’t imagine the program I trained at accepting someone who hadn’t passed NAVLE. Of course ymmv in a different specialty. I don’t say this to discourage you from pursuing a specialty or make you feel bad in any way, but if you’re truly dedicated to the specialty track, you may have to stick it out in internships until you do pass. I wouldn’t want to commit that much time and emotional energy and poor pay to a specialty unless I was sure I could use that education somehow. Hopefully you pass on your next attempt!

 

[pp9]

Reviving this forum as someone who is entering yet another NAVLE cycle attempt. I have ambitions of specializing but I can not seem to pass the dreaded NAVLE. I’m starting an academic internship next month that luckily didn’t require the NAVLE to enter the program, so I can still work toward my goal while trying to take the exam yet again. I know there’s also academic residencies that don’t require the NAVLE to enter those programs as well. It’s odd to me that you can enter the training programs without the NAVLE pass yet, because then what happens if you pass board exams but never pass the NAVLE? You aren’t able to practice but have the board certification. I’m assuming maybe you’d be able to teach the subject at a vet school or something, it’s just so odd to me. I’m trying to find other routes to still be happy with what I want goal wise and I have USDA on the list of backups but there has to be more possibilities I can add to my list of just in case careers outside of the USDA that seems to be the main fallback I see on multiple forums. It’s very hard to find information on this anywhere, it makes me feel so singled out since everyone else is able to pass the NAVLE and move on with their lives.

If you are looking down at a residency offer and still don't have a license, I would tell you not to take it and to find whatever job you can work at that point. No sense in adding more years of poorly paid work when you won't be sure that you can practice in that field at the end of it. I will also gently point out that the NAVLE pales in comparison to most specialty exams. Some specialty exams have a 50% or less pass rate.

The reason you are not finding that info is because it is exceptionally rare for someone to straight up never pass after all allotted attempts (which is 5 now, before you have to start an appeals process). I personally know a large handful of people who have come darn close, including one that passed on the 5th attempt, but none that have never ultimately passed.

This next bit is unsolicited advice: The NAVLE is not designed to make test takers fail/weed people out. Take a minute and determine if you really prepped appropriately. If you did, consider seeking out a learning specialist or a psychiatrist. Undiagnosed learning issues and severe test anxiety are not as obvious as you'd think and it might make a huge difference if that ends up being the case. Advice for someone who has failed NAVLE multiple times an oldie but a goodie, although you can scroll past the drama lol