What to do with a stubborn friend...

[ZOT! ZOT!]

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I have a friend who wants to go to medical school. The person has taken the MCAT twice and has gotten the same score twice - a 23. This person also has a decent GPA, ~3.55, and is preparing to take the MCAT for the 3rd time. It doesn't look good this time either.

We've been friends for years and I really care for this person, so I thought nothing of suggesting the inclusion of some DO schools this application cycle (first time applying). This was the reaction:

"Never! D.O.s are an embarrassment to the medical profession. I would rather do dentisty than get a DO!"

So I tried to explain that she couldn't be more wrong and questioned whether it was the roles and duties of a doctor she was after, or the MD after her name. She said it was the roles and duties, so I asked her... "what is wrong with DO? It's not fair and it's not true to say that people who save lives every day are an embarrassment."

Now, I am at a crossroads. She left a message on my phone saying that she doesn't need my pity and that she thinks that I think she's pathetic and that I'm a horrible friend and that she never wants to talk to me again. She also said "I will get into a medical school even if you don't think I can..." and a bunch of other crap like that. At first I was pissed, but then I was like... "Whatever, dude... I'm trying to help."

I guess my question is this: How do I deal with a person like this? A DO school IS a medical school! She knows NOTHING about DO! She has this impression that DOs pray for their patients and treat them with herbs and stuff! Where she got the info I will never know, but an hour before the phone call, I emailed her an article about DOs clearing up any misconceptions. That will probably piss her off when she reads it. Oh well...


Was I wrong, guys?

 

[IndyZX]

im going to go out a limb and guess your friend is a girl.

 

[SanDiegoSOD]

I'd say give him/her one more shot at the MCAT before telling him/her that s/he is making a mistake in trying again. I'll bet this person will figure it out (or go to an Island school) by the third time. And if s/he doesn't, then there is nothing you can really do, right? This person has to live their own life, and despite your good intentions, further advice may destroy your relationship if s/he takes it personally. In the end, this isnt a good situation for either of you. Good luck to the both of you 👍

 

[ZOT! ZOT!]

im going to go out a limb and guess your friend is a girl.

That's not important... any useful advice?

 

[Munchkin6245]

definitely a girl and you need to tell her to grow the f*k up....she's acting like a 12 yr/old with that message....hahaha....i'm not sure she should be a doctor with an attitude like that. It won't be her MCAT keeping her out...

 

[ZOT! ZOT!]

I'd say give him/her one more shot at the MCAT before telling him/her that s/he is making a mistake in trying again. I'll bet this person will figure it out (or go to an Island school) by the third time. And if s/he doesn't, then there is nothing you can really do, right? This person has to live their own life, and despite your good intentions, further advice may destroy your relationship if s/he takes it personally. In the end, this isnt a good situation for either of you. Good luck to the both of you 👍

I never once said the person was making a mistake. I only suggested adding a couple of DO schools.

 

[SanDiegoSOD]

I never once said the person was making a mistake. I only suggested adding a couple of DO schools.

Ok, but you think this person is making a mistake by not applying to a DO school, right? Why else would you feel so strongly about it?
That's what I read your post to mean, and that you implied to her that she was making a mistake. My bad. <shruggs shoulders>

 

[playa4real]

hey no need to jump to conclusions..she might be a WOMAN... 😱

 

[ny skindoc]

Your friend has difficulty taking advice on this matter.She may have self esteem or other psychological issues. Dont force it on her,you've said enough.I'd let this subject go.Let her go through the application process,she will hear about the DO option from other people and may be more prepared to consider it in the future.

 

[safrat]

I as many med students have asked, "why not DO?" Even if you can get into a medical school, why not go to DO school instead?

My main problems stem from the system that created the title DO. What I dislike is that it's for those "other" med students. You know, the one's going against all odds, or as applicants have regarded as the "unfortunate". Looking at their stats, it's pretty obvious that these people who scored low on the mcat and gpa are doing the same job that MD's are doing. Not just that, they are also taking more courses.

What do the DO's get in return? Hmmm, lower rate of residency placement, the title "Other type of Doctor", high-priced education (like private schools)and can't leave the US and practice.

That's when I realize that if this is the way people look and treat them, then why would I want to be ostrasized and looked down on as opposing to being being admired and recognized by the community at whole. Your friends image of them is one example of this negativity.

IMO, this is why I chose to apply to medical school. I don't want to do my best, doing the same job as an MD, and have the establishment tell me that my effort isn't good enough for a medical degree. The whole Osteopathic/Allopathic argument is a load of bullsh|t. It's all the same.

Finally, making a difference in people's lives is very fulfilling to me. However, this decision of DO or MD is more of a pride/practicing issue to me. I want to have all the options (residencies) when I decide to choose my occupation, and the freedom of practicing and saving the lives of anyone in the world. So, if I want to save lives as a neurologist, then I should expect to not have my degree affect these chances.

I hope I didn't offend anyone. These are just my thoughts. I don't look down on DO's; it's just a risk I wouldn't take. This view is a view that I share with many people. I hold this view so much so that I wouldn't go to DO school if I didn't get into MD. The same reason I wouldn't go to the carribean--just too damn risky.

 

[ZOT! ZOT!]

Do you guys feel it's even likey to get into a MD school with a 23? Twice? What about if the third score is the same?

I thought I knew how much medicine meant to this person so I wanted to offer all of the options. I don't think I did anything wrong.

 

[stoic]

Male or female, your friend is a bitch.

S/he is obviously not being particuarly realistic about their chances at an MD school. With a 23, there's a chance, but not a good one.

If you just want to be a doctor, what's the difference? Particuarly if your other option is NOT being a doctor.

Your friend needs to take a deep breath and face the reality of their situation.

 

[ZOT! ZOT!]

How come the shistosome thread is getting more attention than this? That's too funny.

I agree with this 100%:

If you just want to be a doctor, what's the difference? Particuarly if your other option is NOT being a doctor.

 

[uproarhz]

Male or female, your friend is a bitch.QUOTE]

I love the fact that everyone here is sooooooooooooo politically correct that, even though the originial post has "she" written all over it, people still are talking about "the friend" as if they don't know her gender. So you can safely use "she" or "her" instead of the whole s/he his/her language.

 

[dwightbean]

This person has to live their own life

i agree w/ this. i would've suggested the option, but not much further.

 

[Shades McCool]

Well if it were me talking to her, I would point out the facts.

Fact #1: You took the MCAT and made a 23 on it, which is below the national average.

Fact #2: You took the MCAT a second time after scoring below the national average the first time. You scored a 23 on it the second time. Once again you were below the national average.

Fact #3: Things are not looking good for your third attempt. If you screw up this time you need to have permission to take the test again.



Next I would lay the scenarios out for her.

Scenario #1: You are not smart enough to do the work.

Scenario #2: You really are not serious about doing well on the MCAT because you have done piss poor on it the first two times and things don't look well now.



Finally I would lay the options out on the table:

Option #1: Quit because you obviously can't handle the work.

Option #2: Light a fire under your ass and knock this bitch out. If it takes you being mad at me, then so be it. Just get it done.

That is just my opinion. I am pretty cut and dry. Plus, I hate drama.

 

[Giving My .02]

Classmates from my undergrad had stellar stats and got into DO schools and others with lesser stats get into MD schools. This is a bias most pre-meds have. Let your friend do her thing. I wouldn't advise her anymore, unless she asks. Probably if she does ask you what her chances are, she doesn't want an honest answer either. It is like the question "does this make me look big"? There is never a good answer.

 

[DD214_DOC]

Who cares, if your friend is this self-conscious and bitchy, I wouldn't want her in a DO school.

Why does everyone insist on convincing people to go this route? Let them make their own decisions, however misinformed they may be.

Have you suggested the Caribbean to her?

 

[rcd]

meh, let her be. with any luck she'll either straighten out herself, or she'll never get into med school. from your description of her i wouldn't want her (someone who ignores others...) to operate on me...

 

[ZOT! ZOT!]

Male or female, your friend is a bitch.QUOTE]

I love the fact that everyone here is sooooooooooooo politically correct that, even though the originial post has "she" written all over it, people still are talking about "the friend" as if they don't know her gender. So you can safely use "she" or "her" instead of the whole s/he his/her language.

Originally, I had the post in a gender neutral form, but it was too bothersome to read. Everyone above your post was responding to the way my post was written, so get off of their backs, please.

 

[ZOT! ZOT!]

Thanks guys for all of your advice. If only I could somehow let you hear the message. You would know how I feel.

I've definitely backed off, but I'll be there for her if she needs me (which will probably be after she gets this MCAT score) like always.

 

[Medikit]

Your advice was good and caring, she is immature. I predict consistent misery in her life.

 

[Assembler]

Man, I don't want to be rude, but your friend is a total bitch.

The hell with the intelligence/MCAT factor. Her reaction towards you was totally uncalled for, especially with the concern that you had demonstrated. I say let her do whatever the f*** she wants.

If she's really your friend, she'll realize she overreacted, and will eventually come back to you.

One word of advice: don't do **** for people that won't do any in return for you. You just get "used and abused" that way.

P.S. From a psychological standpoint, I would place my bets that your friend is jealous that you have already been accepted to a medical school. As such, if you decide to give her advice, it would make it seem as if you were looking down on her; this would, in turn, heighten her inferiority complex. Just a thought. Remember, this is all self-induced (on her part).

 

[safrat]

bull**** to all previous posts. *******es. If you guys haven't figured it out, that whole claim of the mcat being a good predictor of your performance is nothing more than another way to weed people out. On the mcat, you have a verbal and written section. Hmmm, i just don't think I'll be needing those in med school. And, don't say **** like, "oh, you don't need to read or write in med school? ha ha ha". F-off losers. I know plenty of friends who can't do either very well but yet still managed to do well on both sections, and vice versa. Physics? Gen Chem?? ORGO???? Come on, this test isn't 100% accurate at predicting, considering that this person has done alright in college. Back to the point, if mcat predicts your performance as a physician and medical school, then how do you explain DO's, who do the same work(even more) than medical school?

Zot!Zot!, great timing. I think, it's about 2 weeks before the mcat. Great words of encouragement. Most likely, there is a med school committee that's looking at the number of times she applies. Yes, I have heard of people with lower mcat scores getting in after repeated tries. And, I also know of people who magically do really well on the mcat their third time w/o showing improvement while practicing.

I know I mentioned a lot of maybe's and people, but don't you think she should have a shot at doing what SHE wants to do. She doesn't want to be "considered" a second rate doctor. I mean, how many of you guys take the podiatry school letters seriously???

over and out

 

[Assembler]

OK, you are going into a completely different ballpark, buddy.

By the way, I did happen to in fact mention that there was no need to discuss the intelligence/MCAT factor. Why? It has no relevance to this discussion. Honestly, if you could go back and look at his original post, there are more emotions involved than there are stats. On a side note however, I do agree, that the MCAT really doesn't have much correlation to success in medical school. I fully believe anyone with perseverance, motivation, determination, and a lifetime of effort can do it.

OK, she should should do what she wants to do. Fine. If she has to, she can always go to the Caribbeans as well. But, c'mon now, if she won't even look to DO options as alternatives, why would she ever even contemplate going offshore? The point is, she probably wants the best of the best. Whatever the hell that means. The way I see it, it doesn't really matter how the f*ck you got your degree (ie. where it came from), as long as in the end, you are able to successfully practice as you have always dreamed of. Point being: there are many roads to one path. It was also nice that you quoted the "considered" remark, because I do find that somewhat offensive that you would go so far as even to call any other profession in the medical business being second-rate. I for one would dislike to commit to podiatry as a profession, but I do know quite a few DPM's that love their job. Even more so, 100% of the dentists are know are absolutely ecstatic about their profession (and how much they are reeling in of course).

 

[chopper]

If you guys haven't figured it out, that whole claim of the mcat being a good predictor of your performance is nothing more than another way to weed people out.

Please. Of course the MCAT is a predictor of success in medical school. There must be three posts a week on this site citing studies that show correlations between good MCAT scores and good board scores, higher placement in class, whatever. Is it because, as a group, people who do well on the MCAT are more prepared, 'smarter' (hate to use that word), whatever - for med school.

Does this mean that you won't do well if you do poorly on MCAT? Of course not. It's one PREDICTOR based on looking at entire student populations anf follwoing them through med school. Citing anectodotal evidence of 'I know someone who did poorly on the MCAT and did great in Med school' is just using a non-scientific Rikki Lake argument - you are using one or two sensational outlier examples to try and prove your point. I thought as future physicians we were going to be scientists. Are you going to use this same arguement with your patients - "If you guys hadn't figured it out, Lipitor does NOT help lower cholesterol. I had a couple patients who took it and it didn't help them. All those people who try to tell you different are just F**** stupid". Come on.

Oh - and to the OP, your friend is very spoiled and I agree - you've done enough. She has had this idea of going to MD school and now is coming face to face with the fact that it probably won't happen. Give her some space.

 

[safrat]

dear scientist,

outliers are still part of the data. You can't just simply toss them out. Oh, and you didn't answer my question in regards to DO schools with mcat AVERAGES of 24. The studies cited are missing a couple of variables aren't they? I remember reading it and finding tons of holes in the study. And the outcomes were like 50-60% of the people with high mcat AND gpa did well in medical school. Most importantly, from what I remember about that study is that it only followed one or two classes for their 2-5 years of education. Also, what does it mean to do well in medical school???? Get A's an B's? I think that's like 60-80% of the class. So if you set up your association rules to look for gpa and mcat relations your bound to get something. And it being a class full of good grades I'd think it would have something to do with good med. school grades. I think they're still trying to prove the how well the mcat is at predicting usmle scores. My guess is if you JUST take the high mcat population and look at usmle scores your bound to find the correlation of good mcat-->good usmle. Well, at least 50%-60% of the time.

As a scientist, I'm skeptical of any study done by the same people that administer it and profiting from it. Hahahahah, come take my test. Just pay 180 one year, 185 the next, and 190 this year. Oh and if you want practice, I'll give you some tests for $40 each or you can buy the one year membership for $80.

His friend isn't spoiled. Some people just don't have the guts to stand for what they want. Spoiled my ass, she's busting her ass for the 3rd time. How is that spoiled? Do you even know what that means? She's busting her ass to get where she wants to. She's not settling for second best. Doesn't that mean anything anymore??? Or is it all about the numbers?

F-bombsto all that disagree

 

[RaistlinMajere]

How do I deal with a person like this?

Tell her that your sorry she took your advice this way, but that you meant to be helpful... you're in her court! You weren't wrong for giving your honest opinion, but my guess is that it came out a bit heavy handed. Remember, if her dream is to be an MD--right or wrong--you were crushing it at that moment.

You can't MAKE her or anyone understand that a DO is legit. Other than the fact that DOs are the medical and legal equivalent of MDs. So, I would let it go. You've given your advice once and that's fine, even if it wasn't what she wanted to hear. Don't do it twice or you'll risk becoming a nag.

 

[Fumoffu]

I tried to help friends in similiar situations and showed concern and they just attacked me and said I was "lecturing" them even though I tried hard not to make it sound preachy.

From my experience, sometimes it's just best to let them hit rock bottom and then realize it themself. Yes it's painful to watch a friend slide down the path to oblivion but I've strained and almost lost 10+ year friendships by trying to help my friends.

Best wishes to you and your friend.

 

[DrPharaohX]

I'd have to agree with what safrat is saying, despite the...passion...in his posts 😉

Doctors with DO may be legally and practically the same as MD's, but in a profession like medicine, where we have to bust our butts to get to where we hope we can get to, we have a right to a certain degree of respect and recognition once we graduate and start practicing.

The facts are these: DO schools accept applicants with lower average stats than MD schools. There are points in life when I think back to what I accomplished and succeeded in gaining - the hard way. NO ONE wants to feel they were granted a "different type of medical degree" or remember that they did not succeed in gaining admission to MD schools, so they took the alternative. The fact that we even mention DO schools as an option to a less-than-stellar applicant alludes to the stigma associated with this type of degree. Like it or not, the stigma exists.

There are individuals who solely choose DO because of the options they have with that type of degree. More power to them. But in case any one is confused, these are not the types of people that I'm referring to with this post.

Your friend's reaction, while certainly extreme and disappointing, is not surprising. You also have to understand that at that time you put a huge obstacle into her way. Though the situation is difficult, perhaps she needed to hear constructive advice instead of the implication you gave (consider DO = forget MD).

Your situation is difficult too, but because you chose to help her, you have to understand how to approach a sensitive situation like this. Give her some time right now, and don't press the subject from now on. Should she need advice, listen carefully and give constructive advice (IE. consider applying for Georgetown Master's Program......or consider waiting longer to retake MCAT for third time since after the third time there are basically no more chances).

Good luck!

 

[oldtimer]

Tell your friend, there's always the Caribbean MD schools! 🙄

I can't believe people haven't mentioned this yet.

 

[SanDiegoSOD]

Tell your friend, there's always the Caribbean MD schools! 🙄

I can't believe people haven't mentioned this yet.

And I can't believe you missed the three previous posts that mentioned it.

 

[derf]

I'd have to agree with what safrat is saying, despite the...passion...in his posts 😉

agree with safrat also.

I would have given her other advice, such as maybe taking a year off for the peace corp or something, while practicing for the MCAT.

Nobody has a right to judge this girl based on her passions for life. the OP immediately suggested that she prolly look at alternatives instead of being supportive.

 

[ZOT! ZOT!]

agree with safrat also.

I would have given her other advice, such as maybe taking a year off for the peace corp or something, while practicing for the MCAT.

Nobody has a right to judge this girl based on her passions for life. the OP immediately suggested that she prolly look at alternatives instead of being supportive.

I suggested that she maybe add in a couple DO schools along with her MD application. I never told her to forget her dream or to look for alternatives to being a doctor!

Believe me, she would have been even more insulted if I suggested not taking the MCAT or going to a Master's Program. She's just not realistic. My other friend told her to apply to every school in the country and she's ok with that.

Also , I just finished reading her PS and it was crap. How do you tel a friend that their PS is crap and they need to re-write it. It's her fault for writing it so late.

 

[ZOT! ZOT!]

bull**** to all previous posts. *******es. If you guys haven't figured it out, that whole claim of the mcat being a good predictor of your performance is nothing more than another way to weed people out. On the mcat, you have a verbal and written section. Hmmm, i just don't think I'll be needing those in med school. And, don't say **** like, "oh, you don't need to read or write in med school? ha ha ha". F-off losers. I know plenty of friends who can't do either very well but yet still managed to do well on both sections, and vice versa. Physics? Gen Chem?? ORGO???? Come on, this test isn't 100% accurate at predicting, considering that this person has done alright in college. Back to the point, if mcat predicts your performance as a physician and medical school, then how do you explain DO's, who do the same work(even more) than medical school?

Zot!Zot!, great timing. I think, it's about 2 weeks before the mcat. Great words of encouragement. Most likely, there is a med school committee that's looking at the number of times she applies. Yes, I have heard of people with lower mcat scores getting in after repeated tries. And, I also know of people who magically do really well on the mcat their third time w/o showing improvement while practicing.

I know I mentioned a lot of maybe's and people, but don't you think she should have a shot at doing what SHE wants to do. She doesn't want to be "considered" a second rate doctor. I mean, how many of you guys take the podiatry school letters seriously???

over and out

The same skills that are required on the MCAt are required in every day life... had you used them, you would have read my post correctly.

This is the first time she is applying and with two 23 MCATs under her belt. She had 8 months between the first two tests and now only 2 months between these last two.

I'm just going to wait and see...

 

[DrPharaohX]

It sounds like you're trying to be a good friend, and that's an admirable thing, believe me. One of my BEST friends was accepted earlier before me and changed after that, forgetting to keep in touch.

That being said, since she's obviously not receptive to the kind of advice you need to give her, then back off. What are you going to do? Don't mention the issue anymore. If after sometime she comes to her senses and needs advice, you can go ahead and help. For now, let it play out.

 

[TwoLegacies]

Your friend has difficulty taking advice on this matter.She may have self esteem or other psychological issues. Dont force it on her,you've said enough.I'd let this subject go.Let her go through the application process,she will hear about the DO option from other people and may be more prepared to consider it in the future.

i'd agree with this, though it's probably more along the lines of misinformation and lack of common sense than psych issues.
but yeah, i say let it go. leave her a message reassuring her that you don't think she's pathetic, you were just trying to be realistic and giving her suggestions. apologize for giving her unwarranted advice (it was unwarranted, right?). tell her you will support her whatever she does.
i think you did the right thing in trying to make a suggestion, because you care about this person and you didn't want to see her disappointed. on the other hand, seeing as how she is stubborn and hurt by your advice, it sounds like she needs to figure it out on her own. you did all you could! now let her realize that you were probably sensible in making your suggestions.

 

[dulcinea]

if she's that ignorant, (refering to her comment about DO schools), i can understand why she got a 23 and hopefully she won't get into school. b/c those same DO's will be her coworkers whether she likes it or not. i have worked with MANY impressive DO's and maybe you should tell her to open up a little bit. how sad . . .

 

[ZOT! ZOT!]

I'll keep you guys posted if I hear anything from her.

I'm not exactly holding my breath because I've seen a whole new side of her that I don't think I can forget.

 

[stoic]

I'll keep you guys posted if I hear anything from her.

I'm not exactly holding my breath because I've seen a whole new side of her that I don't think I can forget.

I'd say it's a little early to write her off forever. People can get really weird when they have to face a reality that isn't pleasent. The anger she showed towards you was likely misplaced from anger she felt towards herself.

 

[Tiki Tiki Tembo]

Your friend is delusional. She needs to come back to Earth and actually research what a D.O does. What she did to you was rude and uncalled for! We're adults here, not children.

 

[skypilot]

There is plenty of negativity out there for her without a good friend telling her that it is not possible to be admitted. I guess I would recommend being supportive instead of negative about her chances for admission. By the way I know a guy who just got admitted with a 25 on the MCAT, so it is possible.

Maybe in 20 years she will have a story about how she applied 5 times before finally getting in.

 

[neoncandle]

I would stop giving advice to your friend. Obviously she is going to have to figure this out on her own. Besides, do we really need another MD who thinks DOs are not real docs? I wouldn't want someone so uninformed and immature treating me either.

 

[hy2026]

This is why I think friendship is overrated. Why interfere with someone else's life, failures, dreams, delusions?

Say hi to her next time you see her, ask her how are you? , then say great I am doing well, too, well good luck and take care.


end of story, you do not have to see her again.

 

[RaistlinMajere]

Haven't we all spent enough time analyzing what zotzot should do?

 

[ZOT! ZOT!]

Haven't we all spent enough time analyzing what zotzot should do?

So I get a text message from her saying that I have a problem - She says my problem is that "I think that all of my friends are using me and I treat them like s***, that she didn't think I would get into UCI, that she thinks I've been talking to others behind her back, that if I was a good friend I would have told her that her essay sucked straight up to her face, that I act like a jerk, that she doesn't need a self-righteous friend who thinks he's too good for her, and finally, that she'll contact me just to say "ha, I got into med school."

She's officially ******ed. I don't know where all of this is coming from. I am a damn good friend - that I can assure you. I've done so much for her. Someone was trying to extort 400 bucks from her. She was going to pay, but I called, yelled at, and chastised the person and got the person to back off for good. When her dad forced her to marry a bastard, I was there. When her husband beat her, she called me! I was always there to listen to her problems, give her my notes, everything. Hell, I even wrote 95% of one of her papers for a class because she was depending on my notes and I didn't have them. So quickly people forget.
I feel like I was the one treated like s***.

 

[45408]

Just let her make her own realization - you're not the one who has to deny her application.

You on the other hand do sound like her personal doormat to walk all over. You offered to MARRY her?

 

[Blake]

Just let her make her own realization - you're not the one who has to deny her application.

You on the other hand do sound like her personal doormat to walk all over. You offered to MARRY her?

Yea, that's kind of disturbing. There are limits to being a GREAT friend, but you just leaped over it.

 

[hy2026]

So quickly people forget. When she wanted to divorce her husband, something taboo in her culture, I offered to marry her - no joke.

I feel like I was the one treated like s***.[/QUOTE]




this sounds really weird and fishy.

Seacrest out

 

[ZOT! ZOT!]

So quickly people forget. When she wanted to divorce her husband, something taboo in her culture, I offered to marry her - no joke.

I feel like I was the one treated like s***.

this sounds really weird and fishy.

Seacrest out[/QUOTE]


just to clear anything up - there was never anything romantic going on... EVER!