What would a "medicare-for-all" system look like?

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Mad Jack said:
The government actually does a very good job running social security, which has around 1% overhead, and Medicare, which has a fraction the overhead of private insurers
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Social security has an eleven figure unfunded liability. Well run?
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NITRAS said:
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Social security has an eleven figure unfunded liability. Well run?
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And could easily be stabilized by removing the income cap on collections and increasing the base tax by 1.2%. That amounts to a tiny tax increase for most people and would sustain the viability of the most effective program in the history of the country at preventing homelessness and destitution among the elderly
 
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Mad Jack said:
And could easily be stabilized by removing the income cap on collections and increasing the base tax by 1.2%. That amounts to a tiny tax increase for most people and would sustain the viability of the most effective program in the history of the country at preventing homelessness and destitution among the elderly
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It works if we just take even more of people’s money and give it to other people?
 
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I'm an intensive care trainee in a "medicare for all" health system. It's the greatest honour of my life to treat patients without bankrupting them. There are no limitations (or token ones) on the services I can provide or offer if patients need them. In return, I pay comparable tax to people in the US, and I get paid a very fair wage. I also document for other doctors, not the billing department.

Bringing this system to the US is possible and we came close with the public option in the Affordable Care Act before it was gutted. Whatever the solution is, the system at present just gets worse and worse as we let things drag on and on and accrue inefficiencies like barnacles -- middle-men and administrators siphoning off billions of dollars doing absolutely nothing at all but generating paperwork and misery.
 
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Mad Jack said:
And could easily be stabilized by removing the income cap on collections and increasing the base tax by 1.2%. That amounts to a tiny tax increase for most people and would sustain the viability of the most effective program in the history of the country at preventing homelessness and destitution among the elderly
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If you took 12.4% of people’s income and did a ****ty job of investing, you’d still have a large pile of money. If you did a good job of investing most people would be millionaires.
 
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lymphocyte said:
I'm an intensive care trainee in a "medicare for all" health system. It's the greatest honour of my life to treat patients without bankrupting them. There are no limitations (or token ones) on the services I can provide or offer if patients need them. In return, I pay comparable tax to people in the US, and I get paid a very fair wage. I also document for other doctors, not the billing department.

Bringing this system to the US is possible and we came close with the public option in the Affordable Care Act before it was gutted. Whatever the solution is, the system at present just gets worse and worse as we let things drag on and on and accrue inefficiencies like barnacles -- middle-men and administrators siphoning off billions of dollars doing absolutely nothing at all but generating paperwork and misery.
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It would be an honor if you were donating your own time or money for that charity care, there is no honor in theft
 
sb247 said:
I’m saying you are on a thief’s payroll and shouldn’t pretend it’s honorable

You aren’t being charitable in treating those people
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I didn't say I was being charitable. I said it was an honour to treat people without bankrupting them. I can confidently say nobody I've treated has had financial ruin as a result, because of the system I work in. It's the system I feel honoured to participate in (and defend). And about 90% of the country rates that system as good or very good -- it's wildly popular.

You seem to be calling that system a product of thievery. But thievery requires stealing, and stealing presupposes a right to property. Do you think that right is a legal or natural right? Genuinely curious.
 
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lymphocyte said:
I didn't say I was being charitable. I said it was an honour to treat people without bankrupting them. I can confidently say nobody I've treated has had financial ruin as a result, because of the system I work in. It's the system I feel honoured to participate in (and defend). And about 90% of the country rates that system as good or very good -- it's wildly popular.

You seem to be calling that system a product of thievery. But thievery requires stealing, and stealing presupposes a right to property. Do you think that right is a legal or natural right? Genuinely curious.
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Natural. I’m not interested in something as fleeting as legal rights
 
Mad Jack said:
As a member of the military you're on the same thief's payroll :thinking:
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The only differences being that protection of rights against invaders is a legitimate function of a govt, could absolutely be handled without a progressive income tax

You want to argue against mission creep, inefficiency in the military, and against funding it with a progressive income tax? I’m with you.
 
sb247 said:
Natural. I’m not interested in something as fleeting as legal rights
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Over three thousand years of human experience tells us that there's nothing more fleeting than natural rights, because ultimately the only thing that comes between you and a bullet (or dagger or pick-axe) is the law and the State-sanctioned apparatus empowered to enforce that law -- or nothing at all.

The ONLY kind of rights that have endured in human history have been legal rights. So how are they fleeting?
 
sb247 said:
The only differences being that protection of rights against invaders is a legitimate function of a govt, could absolutely be handled without a progressive income tax

You want to argue against mission creep, inefficiency in the military, and against funding it with a progressive income tax? I’m with you.
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What do you mean by "legitimate function of a govt."? What makes one function "legitimate" and another one not?
 
lymphocyte said:
Over three thousand years of human experience tells us that there's nothing more fleeting than natural rights, because ultimately the only thing that comes between you and a bullet (or dagger or pick-axe) is the law and the State-sanctioned apparatus empowered to enforce that law -- or nothing at all.

The ONLY kind of rights that have endured in human history have been legal rights. So how are they fleeting?
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Natural rights are not at all fleeting because they don’t change. They can be violated by force, but violating a natural right and making it not exist are different

Legal rights can dissipate with one vote. Poof. Their entire existence is transient
 
lymphocyte said:
What do you mean by "legitimate function of a govt."? What makes one function "legitimate" and another one not?
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Natural rights. Everyone has a natural right to not be murdered by local or foreign powers, so a military and police are legitimate functions of govt.

No one has a natural right to an MRI, so it’s not a legitimate function of govt to provide MRIs to citizens at the expense of other citizens
 
sb247 said:
Natural rights. Everyone has a natural right to not be murdered by local or foreign powers, so a military and police are legitimate functions of govt.

No one has a natural right to an MRI, so it’s not a legitimate function of govt to provide MRIs to citizens at the expense of other citizens
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That's a false comparison. You're comparing something very general to something very specific -- murders to MRIs. The better comparison would be F-35s to MRIs, and of course there's no natural right to either (perhaps).

What if I assert that everybody has a right to "healthcare" -- whatever that means. How do you argue against that?
 
lymphocyte said:
That's a false comparison. You're comparing something very general to something very specific -- murders to MRIs. The better comparison would be F-35s to MRIs, and of course there's no natural right to either (perhaps).

What if I assert that everybody has a right to "healthcare" -- whatever that means. How do you argue against that?
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By saying you have no idea what you are talking about. Was everyone who died prior to MRI having their rights violated? No

Everyone in poor rural nations with no MRI having their rights violated? No

Power goes out and the MRI won’t run? Violation of rights? Nope

You don’t have a natural right to demand an mri be bought for you
 
lymphocyte said:
Not at all. What long-running government in human history has been democratic to the point of "one vote and poof"?
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Now you’re being disingenuous. If the law is repealed, the legal claim to whatever that law promised you is gone
 
sb247 said:
By saying you have no idea what you are talking about. Was everyone who died prior to MRI having their rights violated? No

Everyone in poor rural nations with no MRI having their rights violated? No

Power goes out and the MRI won’t run? Violation of rights? Nope

You don’t have a natural right to demand an mri be bought for you
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You're begging the question over and over again... There's a natural right to healthcare. Tell me why there isn't.
 
sb247 said:
The only differences being that protection of rights against invaders is a legitimate function of a govt, could absolutely be handled without a progressive income tax

You want to argue against mission creep, inefficiency in the military, and against funding it with a progressive income tax? I’m with you.
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I mean, whatever you have to tell yourself to sleep at night, hypocrite
 
lymphocyte said:
You're begging the question over and over again... There's a natural right to healthcare. Tell me why there isn't.
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“The thing speaks for itself”

Are you familiar with positive vs negative rights?
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
No, it's a very clear distinction
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There really isn't. There are ways to defend a country without a multitrillion dollar force paid for by "stolen" money, just like there is a way to pay for healthcare or take care of the elderly without "stealing" money. The trouble is no one wants to do these things that way because it is impractical
 
Mad Jack said:
There really isn't. There are ways to defend a country without a multitrillion dollar force paid for by "stolen" money, just like there is a way to pay for healthcare or take care of the elderly without "stealing" money. The trouble is no one wants to do these things that way because it is impractical
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The “trouble” is that only one of those tasks is a legitimate task for govt
 
Mad Jack said:
There really isn't. There are ways to defend a country without a multitrillion dollar force paid for by "stolen" money, just like there is a way to pay for healthcare or take care of the elderly without "stealing" money. The trouble is no one wants to do these things that way because it is impractical
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And what might those be?
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
And what might those be?
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Raised armies paid for by the wealthy and corporations, as in the old days. Those who value a standing army can pay for it out of their own pocket just like everything else, build their own militias, etc. Look to the British East India Company for proof such systems can be effective, or to feudalistic paid conscription models for how such arrangements could be brought under state control in times of war. The wealthy benefit most from stable governmental structures and have the most incentive to privately protect and maintain those structures against foreign invasion.

There are areas where the police are privatized, which are another role that has traditionally been viewed as "essential" to be publicly funded for the protection of the rights of individuals, which is not a whole hell of a lot different than the argument people would have for the military. And sure enough, it's the wealthy who tend to put up the money for these forces in places where funding for public police is scant, such as India and even some areas of Detroit. Let the people who value paying for security pay for it.

The point being, much like everything else libertarians talk about, it is possible but not desirable for many reasons. Health care and social security are no different.
 
Mad Jack said:
It could be argued that neither are or both are just as easily. Government is what the people make of it. It is an agreement.
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Democracy isn’t an agreement, it’s tyranny of the majority

Straying away from a rights based constitutional republic was/is a tragic mistake
 
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sb247 said:
Now you’re being disingenuous. If the law is repealed, the legal claim to whatever that law promised you is gone
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You're trying to make the point that legal rights are fleeting because... Why exactly? Yes, they can be repealed, but in the spate of human history they've been far more enduring than any natural right you claim. The only rights we actually have (as opposed to what you dream about over pot and Atlas Shrugged) are the ones guaranteed at the point of a knife and gun.
 
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lymphocyte said:
You're trying to make the point that legal rights are fleeting because... Why exactly? Yes, they can be repealed, but in the spate of human history they've been far more enduring than any natural right you claim. The only rights we actually have (as opposed to what you dream about over pot and Atlas Shrugged) are the ones guaranteed at the point of a knife and gun.
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Natural rights are enduring for the reason I already explained to you. Even if violated, the right still exists
 
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sb247 said:
“The thing speaks for itself”

Are you familiar with positive vs negative rights?
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Yes I am, and they're generally a garbage way of framing an issue, because any positive right can be reconstructed as a negative right and vice versa.

"The thing speaks for itself" -- no, it doesn't. But it's certainly a convenient way to tap out of an argument.
 
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sb247 said:
Natural rights are enduring for the reason I already explained to you. Even if violated, the right still exists
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But that same thing is true for a legal right. Even if violated, a legal right still exists -- that's the whole point of the court system, to adjudicate violations of legal rights.

And let's suppose the right to property is a natural right. What happens when two people stumble across the same plot of land at the same time? Who has claim to that land?
 
lymphocyte said:
More question begging. Why are some rights natural and other rights not? If defence against a foreign invasion is a natural right -- how does that actually work? What if nobody volunteers in the military? Does that justify a draft?
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Nothing justifies a draft. People either volunteer to fight or we have no army and everyone gets to defend their property alone.

lymphocyte said:
Yes I am, and they're generally a garbage way of framing an issue, because any positive right can be reconstructed as a negative right and vice versa.

"The thing speaks for itself" -- no, it doesn't. But it's certainly a convenient way to tap out of an argument.
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Positive right: claiming you have a natural right to demand a surgery that you will never pay for

Go ahead and reconstruct that as a negative

lymphocyte said:
But that same thing is true for a legal right. Even if violated, a legal right still exists -- that's the whole point of the court system, to adjudicate violations of legal rights.

And let's suppose the right to property is a natural right. What happens when two people stumble across the same plot of land at the same time? Who has claim to that land?
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A legal claim/right isn't erased by it being violated. It is erased by a change in laws that literally ends it. It ceases to exist.

A natural right does not cease to exist in that manner
 
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If a person has a right to healthcare, where is the limit? Is it for just life or death? How do we make the distinction, and where do we draw the line when its harm that they have caused themselves, or care is optional in nature?
 
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I love libertarians and their economic theories.

It only works in theory.

Libertarianism has been a failure in many countries. Same goes with the current right-wing economics - neoliberalism.
 
sb247 said:
Democracy isn’t an agreement, it’s tyranny of the majority

Straying away from a rights based constitutional republic was/is a tragic mistake
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You need to stop watching "Parks & Recreation."

There's a reason why democracy exist. To protect the lower-class from the tyranny of the powerful.
 
Gyuji said:
You need to stop watching "Parks & Recreation."

There's a reason why democracy exist. To protect the lower-class from the tyranny of the powerful.
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No, that's why Constitutional Republics exist. Pure democracy is what leads to the tyranny of the majority.
 
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VA Hopeful Dr said:
I'm going to need you to expound on that theory
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I can't match the elegance of Noam Chomsky, so I'll simply use his words:

"Libertarianism has a special meaning predominantly in the United States. In the United States, it means dedication to extreme forms of tyranny. They don’t call it that, but it’s basically corporate tyranny, meaning tyranny by unaccountable private concentrations of power, the worst kind of tyranny you can imagine. It picks up from the libertarian tradition one element, namely opposition to state power. But it leaves open all other forms of — and in fact favors — other forms of coercion and domination. So it’s radically opposed to the libertarian tradition, which was opposed to the master-servant relation."

I'd rather have tyranny by government ran by people who, in theory, we can vote in and vote out, than by plutocrats loyal only to their shareholders.

The whole text can be found here: Creating the Horror Chambers: Noam Chomsky on the tyranny of libertarianism, the need for media democracy, and Latin American resistance to US imperialism
 
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