sb247

Doer of things
5+ Year Member
Jul 5, 2012
19,854
29,601
131
Galt's Gulch
So the government forced health insurance to sky rocket.. just like they did with student loans and tuition. But the only way to fix that problem then is to reformat the whole system. Just out of curiosity, I have no knowledge of actual prices since I haven't had to buy insurance ever in my life (Yay having workings parents and getting accepted to school before 26!) but what is the cheapest insurance plan one could buy, if Medicare was abolished tomorrow?

According to eHealth.com, the cost for a single-person coverage healthcare is generally ~$440 / month. For a family, 1,160$ a month. That's 13,920$ a year. The average household income is 60,000$ pre-tax. 22% tax rate leaves you with 46,000$. I live in NY so 6.33% tax rate = 42k / year.

14,000 is 33% of your household income to health insurance.
900$/month for rent = 9600$ / year = 22% of household income.
12k / year for food = 29% of your household income for a family.

That leaves the average American household with only 6.6k a year. I haven't even factored in gas, car insurance, heating and cooling, internet, cell phone, all things the average American needs to live, get to work, and function in a society that demands you to be "connected" at all times - Doctors aren't the only people that take call or work extra hours at home, so internet and cell phone are essentials.

Basically, this leaves the average American will extremely very tight wiggle room to even begin saving. I didn't even factor student loans that I'm sure the parents are paying off either!

Btw the 14,000 for a family is one of the cheapest plans possible. I don't know what this covers, but you better pray you don't ACTUALLY get sick and need a sudden visit to the ER or get into a car accident, you'll be in debt for a very long time. And you can't really have a rainy day fund because where in the budget was a savings even possible?

33% of your income for the average American for the LOWEST plan is ridiculous. And the average income salary of 60,000 is probably even high for a lot of people.
A number of things to unpack here, and it kind of shows that you haven’t had to buy your own stuff prior

1. The insurance wouldn’t be $1100/month for a family without govt mandates on elaborate coverage. I had a catastrophic individual plan years ago for <$100/month. You can also buy into religious cost share programs for <500 for a family, they exclude preexisting conditions (and they should)

2. Wages can go up if companies aren’t buying insurance. Your employer doesn’t care much about how you are compensated when compared to the total dollars you cost them. My wife negotiated an almost $10k raise when we got insurance through me because her boss could stop paying for our insurance
 
Aug 11, 2017
417
206
41
Status
Medical Student
A number of things to unpack here, and it kind of shows that you haven’t had to buy your own stuff prior

1. The insurance wouldn’t be $1100/month for a family without govt mandates on elaborate coverage. I had a catastrophic individual plan years ago for <$100/month. You can also buy into religious cost share programs for <500 for a family, they exclude preexisting conditions (and they should)

2. Wages can go up if companies aren’t buying insurance. Your employer doesn’t care much about how you are compensated when compared to the total dollars you cost them. My wife negotiated an almost $10k raise when we got insurance through me because her boss could stop paying for our insurance
While I see your points, the numbers I found for these things were average values of cost of living for things that I found from digging on the internet so whether or not I've actually bought anything is irrelevant, I'm not using my own subjective values. But, I do think that it paints a very vivid picture that if the average American is cutting their savings and budgets that close, then people who are making less than average are even worse off (which is many millions of people), and it doesn't help that in a few years time, the cost of living will be even HIGHER with the income most likely staying the same.

The problem is, even if the Government were to remove themselves from the picture, the insurance costs won't go down right away, they'd have to be forced down, or perhaps create a more tiered-payment structure for individuals who are really struggling. The amount of corporations that pay for insurance for their employees is dwindling, due to factors mentioned above about outsourcing and hiring people at sub-full-time to get out of it. According to the 2010 Census report, only 56% of Americans received health-insurance through corporations. I'd be willing to bet that'll be less, closer to 50% in the 2020 census, but we'll see. Point is, even if companies stopped paying for insurance, I don't see wages going up or insurance costs going down, because like you say, what a company does with their own money is their own concern and they don't have to care about their employees health as long as their bottom line is being met.

I know you're against legalizing morality, but sometimes I think the government needs to. The government has always been a "Referee" for the free market, look at all the regulations companies must meet in order to keep people healthy/safe. Yes, it makes companies spend more money, but at the end of the day, I believe capitalism to be the best system because it follows the laws of evolution and survival of the fittest. If the government makes harsher environmental conditions, the strongest companies (That are doing the right thing) adapt and survive. Obviously the government can go overboard (look at China, they're always teetering on whether or not to intervene or be more "laisse-faire") but if you make small incremental changes, companies can adapt and thrive.

As for your wife with a raise, that's awesome she was able to do that, and I guess that really shows just how much insurance costs the company for each individual employee - but, that still leaves 44%, possibly soon to be 50% of the population without that option as they don't hold jobs in companies that could even offer their employees insurance. Leaving half the country to pay out of pocket (which if you're paying out of pocket, that also probably means you aren't in a good job with a salary and therefore probably make way less than the average yearly income in the first place), or get on a government insurance plan.
 

sb247

Doer of things
5+ Year Member
Jul 5, 2012
19,854
29,601
131
Galt's Gulch
While I see your points, the numbers I found for these things were average values of cost of living for things that I found from digging on the internet so whether or not I've actually bought anything is irrelevant, I'm not using my own subjective values. But, I do think that it paints a very vivid picture that if the average American is cutting their savings and budgets that close, then people who are making less than average are even worse off (which is many millions of people), and it doesn't help that in a few years time, the cost of living will be even HIGHER with the income most likely staying the same.

The problem is, even if the Government were to remove themselves from the picture, the insurance costs won't go down right away, they'd have to be forced down, or perhaps create a more tiered-payment structure for individuals who are really struggling. The amount of corporations that pay for insurance for their employees is dwindling, due to factors mentioned above about outsourcing and hiring people at sub-full-time to get out of it. According to the 2010 Census report, only 56% of Americans received health-insurance through corporations. I'd be willing to bet that'll be less, closer to 50% in the 2020 census, but we'll see. Point is, even if companies stopped paying for insurance, I don't see wages going up or insurance costs going down, because like you say, what a company does with their own money is their own concern and they don't have to care about their employees health as long as their bottom line is being met.

I know you're against legalizing morality, but sometimes I think the government needs to. The government has always been a "Referee" for the free market, look at all the regulations companies must meet in order to keep people healthy/safe. Yes, it makes companies spend more money, but at the end of the day, I believe capitalism to be the best system because it follows the laws of evolution and survival of the fittest. If the government makes harsher environmental conditions, the strongest companies (That are doing the right thing) adapt and survive. Obviously the government can go overboard (look at China, they're always teetering on whether or not to intervene or be more "laisse-faire") but if you make small incremental changes, companies can adapt and thrive.

As for your wife with a raise, that's awesome she was able to do that, and I guess that really shows just how much insurance costs the company for each individual employee - but, that still leaves 44%, possibly soon to be 50% of the population without that option as they don't hold jobs in companies that could even offer their employees insurance. Leaving half the country to pay out of pocket (which if you're paying out of pocket, that also probably means you aren't in a good job with a salary and therefore probably make way less than the average yearly income in the first place), or get on a government insurance plan.
But the govt is the cause of this problem, not the solution. You keep ignoring that
 

ArdorAyurveda

Credit goes to Google Images
Mar 15, 2019
102
85
31
Status
Medical Student
Docs that don't want Medicare-For-All can just go into concierge medicine or private practice.

Docs that do want Medicare-For-All take a pay cut.

Everybody wins!

I've given up hope -- the people want what they want, I will vote against Medicare-For-All, but I am preparing myself for its inevitable passage.

Enjoy the decline! Two-tiered medicine is the future.
 
Sep 8, 2017
59
21
11
Status
Non-Student
Crappy idea in past isn’t a defense for crappy future idea
what crappy idea of the past was public-interest other than Obamacare from 1980's to now? Over 90% of the legislation was in for the interest of the elites, not regular people.

Deregulation - Which is something you libertarians are in favor for - Dismantling the Glass-Steagall Act in 1999, more Wall St. deregulation during Bush Jr's years.

Tax cuts - Right now, under Trump's tax cuts, corporate profits are soaring and paying less than 10% in taxes, still the problems aren't address and causing an economic bubble that is ready to burst soon combining that with deregulation. Yeah, so much for "government" getting involve with the economy.

Bailing out banks and financial institutions and other corporations. But not people who lost their homes or have high student loan debt?

High Interest rate - Just now, Bernie Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez proposed a legislation of putting a 15% interest rate cap on credit cards which Sanders proposed in 2009 by arguing if credit unions can survive with an interest rate cap, so can banks. This is something that people would like to see pass but Wall Street is not going to make it happen.

Increasing the military budget by 40%.

Politicians like the Republicans and even Joe Biden are talking about cutting Social Security.

Corporations owning mainstream media. Only focusing on "social issues," but never socio-economic issues, smearing any candidate that is against the agenda, and shoving us their candidate down our throat like CNN and MSNBC is doing with Biden and Kamala Harris

This is Neoliberalism 101 controlled by corporate corruption.
 
Aug 11, 2017
417
206
41
Status
Medical Student
Docs that don't want Medicare-For-All can just go into concierge medicine or private practice.

Docs that do want Medicare-For-All take a pay cut.

Everybody wins!

I've given up hope -- the people want what they want, I will vote against Medicare-For-All, but I am preparing myself for its inevitable passage.

Enjoy the decline! Two-tiered medicine is the future.
Well the scary thing about that is Bernie's plan would abolish the ability to take private money. Which I'm 10000000% against even in the most strict single-payer system.

Our abilities/knowledge are a commodity and we should have the ability to utilize them how we see fit.
 
  • Like
Reactions: VA Hopeful Dr

VA Hopeful Dr

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
Jul 28, 2004
19,623
24,168
281
Status
Attending Physician
Well the scary thing about that is Bernie's plan would abolish the ability to take private money. Which I'm 10000000% against even in the most strict single-payer system.

Our abilities/knowledge are a commodity and we should have the ability to utilize them how we see fit.
Yep.

That's why if its going to happen, I'd prefer a public option rather than single payer.
 

sb247

Doer of things
5+ Year Member
Jul 5, 2012
19,854
29,601
131
Galt's Gulch
what crappy idea of the past was public-interest other than Obamacare from 1980's to now? Over 90% of the legislation was in for the interest of the elites, not regular people.

Deregulation - Which is something you libertarians are in favor for - Dismantling the Glass-Steagall Act in 1999, more Wall St. deregulation during Bush Jr's years.

Tax cuts - Right now, under Trump's tax cuts, corporate profits are soaring and paying less than 10% in taxes, still the problems aren't address and causing an economic bubble that is ready to burst soon combining that with deregulation. Yeah, so much for "government" getting involve with the economy.

Bailing out banks and financial institutions and other corporations. But not people who lost their homes or have high student loan debt?

High Interest rate - Just now, Bernie Sanders and Ocasio-Cortez proposed a legislation of putting a 15% interest rate cap on credit cards which Sanders proposed in 2009 by arguing if credit unions can survive with an interest rate cap, so can banks. This is something that people would like to see pass but Wall Street is not going to make it happen.

Increasing the military budget by 40%.

Politicians like the Republicans and even Joe Biden are talking about cutting Social Security.

Corporations owning mainstream media. Only focusing on "social issues," but never socio-economic issues, smearing any candidate that is against the agenda, and shoving us their candidate down our throat like CNN and MSNBC is doing with Biden and Kamala Harris

This is Neoliberalism 101 controlled by corporate corruption.
Holy crap you are all over the place.

I’m generally in favor of deregulating things, but the consequences of company failing have to be left intact. Which means I would oppose the bailouts, firmly. They were a crappy idea.

Generally all taxes should be lower and so shouldngovt spending. Someone getting a tax cut is good, even if that person is rich.

Interest rates on cards should be market value. You don’t like how much visa charges? Then save up or shop with discover. Cap the rate at an artificially low rate and low quality borrowers lose access or the fees just go up.

The military budget is too big

We definitely should end social security

Media companies can do what they want, if you have a different message, start your own organization
 
  • Like
Reactions: BeautifulSmiles523

Rainee

7+ Year Member
Mar 31, 2010
1,434
1,090
181
Status
Docs that don't want Medicare-For-All can just go into concierge medicine or private practice.

Docs that do want Medicare-For-All take a pay cut.

Everybody wins!

I've given up hope -- the people want what they want, I will vote against Medicare-For-All, but I am preparing myself for its inevitable passage.

Enjoy the decline! Two-tiered medicine is the future.
It will eventually come to pass. It might not happen 2020, 2024, 2028 but I think it will happen. The next generation of politicians and policy makers are millennials and they really embrace the concept of universal basic income, housing for all, free education, free healthcare.

The Boomers who are the policy makers will be retiring in the upcoming decade and I think we will see a shift in demographics via Gen X and Millennials and with it, a shift in policies.

I'll be retired by then before that happens though, but those individuals going into healthcare and will be graduating mid to late 2025-2030+ really should take notes because medicine today- won't be the same medicine tomorrow. Regardless of everything being said- there is a problem with the insurance, premiums, and gov involvement. The whole system needs some sort of fixing- but I do not think a single payer system- with gov bureaucrats will do a better job at all. If anything I think it will be worse. People do not want the gov telling them what they can't/can't do. See the Alabama conversation on women's rights. You think Americans will be happy with gov telling them what procedures they can/can't do and what they qualify for? In addition to that, the administration...I have no faith in the DMV and gov entities doing the job efficiently...and finally the costs are astronomical.

But that's just my opinion- and I do think in the end it will change but not any time soon mainly due to the generation of policy makers.
 
Last edited:
May 22, 2018
216
42
21
Holy crap you are all over the place.

I’m generally in favor of deregulating things, but the consequences of company failing have to be left intact. Which means I would oppose the bailouts, firmly. They were a crappy idea.

Generally all taxes should be lower and so shouldngovt spending. Someone getting a tax cut is good, even if that person is rich.

Interest rates on cards should be market value. You don’t like how much visa charges? Then save up or shop with discover. Cap the rate at an artificially low rate and low quality borrowers lose access or the fees just go up.

The military budget is too big

We definitely should end social security

Media companies can do what they want, if you have a different message, start your own organization
Regulations are must to keeps things in order, protect the weak from getting exploited, etc. if you revoke the criminal laws, 90% will become criminals. If you revoke traffic rules, no one can get on the road. People who don’t want regulations, basically want to make money in a dishonest and quick way. Honest people will not afraid of regulations.

Taxes are good. We live in a society, not in individual islands. You need money to maintain it. The taxes have to be progressive . People make more , should pay more %. It is a stupid joke to let go corporations making billions in profit without paying a single penny. Only in this stupid country things like this will happen With no one raising any voice against.

Social security is a must. You may not need it but the rest need it. The govt should pay back the 2.4 trillion they stole from SS. They should lift the cap on earnings and deduct SS from entire earnings including investments.

Presence of honest, independent and patriotic media is a must for a vibrant democracy. The government should regulate the media, place investment limit by any individual so that they cannot control it. They should prevent banking, energy, healthcare entities to advertise on media . They buy the influence over the media in the form of advertisements and advance their agenda.
 
May 22, 2018
216
42
21
A number of things to unpack here, and it kind of shows that you haven’t had to buy your own stuff prior

1. The insurance wouldn’t be $1100/month for a family without govt mandates on elaborate coverage. I had a catastrophic individual plan years ago for <$100/month. You can also buy into religious cost share programs for <500 for a family, they exclude preexisting conditions (and they should)

2. Wages can go up if companies aren’t buying insurance. Your employer doesn’t care much about how you are compensated when compared to the total dollars you cost them. My wife negotiated an almost $10k raise when we got insurance through me because her boss could stop paying for our insurance
It is a lie to say that the government is the reason for higher premiums. It won’t become true no matter how many times you repeat. The government has zero control over the health insurance companies. They are jagging up the premium, copay, deductibles BECAUSE THEY CAN AND THE CONSUMER HAS NO OPTION BUT TO BUY. Without comprehensive coverage, why the hell you have to buy the insurance? You seem to be fascinated with not covering the preexisting conditions, do you ever think about anyone other than you? Again, what is an insurance that don’t cover preexisting conditions?

All other countries where government controls the healthcare, provide comprehensive coverage to all their citizens with no copay, deductibles etc at one third of cost of what we pay in this stupid country. Why it is so hard to understand? It baffles me when people ask where is the money and how do you pay for Medicare for all etc. Do the private insurance companies give free insurance? Aren’t we paying three times more than other countries for so called lousy coverage? Where do we get money from?

We have to get rid of every private insurance company, negotiate doctor, hospital fees, import the medicine from where it is the cheapest, build government hospitals, employ government doctors. Do everything to take care of the people. Enough of sucking up to the rich corporations and executives in the name of freedom , capitalism etc. They are nothing but parasites. Free market capitalism will never work for essential goods and services. That’s why the drug companies are able to charge $2000 for the AIDS medicine which they sell for only $8 in Australia, and they defend themselves in front of the congress without any shame. In Australia, the government works for the people but here our politicians suck up to the corporations and call it capitalism. The stupid people also believes it for generations.
 

sb247

Doer of things
5+ Year Member
Jul 5, 2012
19,854
29,601
131
Galt's Gulch
Regulations are must to keeps things in order, protect the weak from getting exploited, etc. if you revoke the criminal laws, 90% will become criminals. If you revoke traffic rules, no one can get on the road. People who don’t want regulations, basically want to make money in a dishonest and quick way. Honest people will not afraid of regulations.

Taxes are good. We live in a society, not in individual islands. You need money to maintain it. The taxes have to be progressive . People make more , should pay more %. It is a stupid joke to let go corporations making billions in profit without paying a single penny. Only in this stupid country things like this will happen With no one raising any voice against.

Social security is a must. You may not need it but the rest need it. The govt should pay back the 2.4 trillion they stole from SS. They should lift the cap on earnings and deduct SS from entire earnings including investments.

Presence of honest, independent and patriotic media is a must for a vibrant democracy. The government should regulate the media, place investment limit by any individual so that they cannot control it. They should prevent banking, energy, healthcare entities to advertise on media . They buy the influence over the media in the form of advertisements and advance their agenda.
The fact that govt stole from SS is one of the main reasons govt shouldn’t continue SS . That was big thing for you to miss

You also said the media should be independent so we need a lot more govt involved in media, which is not how that works
 
  • Like
Reactions: BeautifulSmiles523
May 22, 2018
216
42
21
It will eventually come to pass. It might not happen 2020, 2024, 2028 but I think it will happen. The next generation of politicians and policy makers are millennials and they really embrace the concept of universal basic income, housing for all, free education, free healthcare.

The Boomers who are the policy makers will be retiring in the upcoming decade and I think we will see a shift in demographics via Gen X and Millennials and with it, a shift in policies.

I'll be retired by then before that happens though, but those individuals going into healthcare and will be graduating mid to late 2025-2030+ really should take notes because medicine today- won't be the same medicine tomorrow. Regardless of everything being said- there is a problem with the insurance, premiums, and gov involvement. The whole system needs some sort of fixing- but I do not think a single payer system- with gov bureaucrats will do a better job at all. If anything I think it will be worse. People do not want the gov telling them what they can't/can't do. See the Alabama conversation on women's rights. You think Americans will be happy with gov telling them what procedures they can/can't do and what they qualify for? In addition to that, the administration...I have no faith in the DMV and gov entities doing the job efficiently...and finally the costs are astronomical.

But that's just my opinion- and I do think in the end it will change but not any time soon mainly due to the generation of policy makers.
The moment we talk about government involvement, why you people get paranoid? Why do you assume the government will control you and what procedure you can get or not? Don’t private insurance companies control you? Why you are ok with it? Do post office control you? Do DMV control you? Ask your parents or grant parents if the Medicare control them. Stop watching Fox News and you will not be afraid of the government. Have open mind and learn what is going on around the world, otherwise the exploitation will never stop. The government controls the healthcare in every other country, do they control their people? How come they don’t opt for the ****ty private insurance?
 

sb247

Doer of things
5+ Year Member
Jul 5, 2012
19,854
29,601
131
Galt's Gulch
It is a lie to say that the government is the reason for higher premiums. It won’t become true no matter how many times you repeat. The government has zero control over the health insurance companies. They are jagging up the premium, copay, deductibles BECAUSE THEY CAN AND THE CONSUMER HAS NO OPTION BUT TO BUY. Without comprehensive coverage, why the hell you have to buy the insurance? You seem to be fascinated with not covering the preexisting conditions, do you ever think about anyone other than you? Again, what is an insurance that don’t cover preexisting conditions?

All other countries where government controls the healthcare, provide comprehensive coverage to all their citizens with no copay, deductibles etc at one third of cost of what we pay in this stupid country. Why it is so hard to understand? It baffles me when people ask where is the money and how do you pay for Medicare for all etc. Do the private insurance companies give free insurance? Aren’t we paying three times more than other countries for so called lousy coverage? Where do we get money from?

We have to get rid of every private insurance company, negotiate doctor, hospital fees, import the medicine from where it is the cheapest, build government hospitals, employ government doctors. Do everything to take care of the people. Enough of sucking up to the rich corporations and executives in the name of freedom , capitalism etc. They are nothing but parasites. Free market capitalism will never work for essential goods and services. That’s why the drug companies are able to charge $2000 for the AIDS medicine which they sell for only $8 in Australia, and they defend themselves in front of the congress without any shame. In Australia, the government works for the people but here our politicians suck up to the corporations and call it capitalism. The stupid people also believes it for generations.
Wow. You went full socialism there sir/ma’am

Of course govt is why the premiums are so high, they mandate the coverages (including not allowing preexisting exemptions that you love so much) and forcing people to buy. Govt forcing to buy is how they get to be so expensive

Mandate down the price of drugs and the drugs stop getting found, it’s a ROI calculation.
 
May 22, 2018
216
42
21
The fact that govt stole from SS is one of the main reasons govt shouldn’t continue SS . That was big thing for you to miss

You also said the media should be independent so we need a lot more govt involved in media, which is not how that works
It is the republican politicians that you worship, stole the money, not the government.

I am not advocating for government to control the media but it should prevent the influential people from controlling the media
 

sb247

Doer of things
5+ Year Member
Jul 5, 2012
19,854
29,601
131
Galt's Gulch
The moment we talk about government involvement, why you people get paranoid? Why do you assume the government will control you and what procedure you can get or not? Don’t private insurance companies control you? Why you are ok with it? Do post office control you? Do DMV control you? Ask your parents or grant parents if the Medicare control them. Stop watching Fox News and you will not be afraid of the government. Have open mind and learn what is going on around the world, otherwise the exploitation will never stop. The government controls the healthcare in every other country, do they control their people? How come they don’t opt for the ****ty private insurance?
Some of the proposals literally ban private options so yes, they do literally control what you can get. Literally. Private insurance doesn’t because I can always negotiate cash for something.

The post office is horrible at their job and so is the DMV (the second being extremely controlling) so I wouldn’t

Yes, other countries do control their people
 

sb247

Doer of things
5+ Year Member
Jul 5, 2012
19,854
29,601
131
Galt's Gulch
It is the republican politicians that you worship, stole the money, not the government.

I am not advocating for government to control the media but it should prevent the influential people from controlling the media
I’m not republican. And it was the govt either way

But you are asking for control, you falsely assign and unearned expectation of benevolence and competence to govt
 

Rainee

7+ Year Member
Mar 31, 2010
1,434
1,090
181
Status
The moment we talk about government involvement, why you people get paranoid? Why do you assume the government will control you and what procedure you can get or not? Don’t private insurance companies control you? Why you are ok with it? Do post office control you? Do DMV control you? Ask your parents or grant parents if the Medicare control them. Stop watching Fox News and you will not be afraid of the government. Have open mind and learn what is going on around the world, otherwise the exploitation will never stop. The government controls the healthcare in every other country, do they control their people? How come they don’t opt for the ****ty private insurance?
If you have ever worked in the industry then you would understand. If you haven't- are a student- in school- then you just wouldn't understand. My specialists takes medicaid- the state/gov run insurance...for every treatment they have to predetermine coverage that may or may not get back for months. When the determination comes back, it can take upwards to 3-6 months to get paid. The pay is substantially less then private insurance- we are talking like 50% off normal PPO prices.

With a normal decent insurance company, you get predetermination back within a week, you get paid within 2 weeks, and is 50% higher in fees.

From what I've seen, the gov system is slower in all aspects and in addition reimburses less. From what I've seen, anything gov related within my healthcare field is convoluted, and doesn't make sense.

Oh that's interesting- I just met a patient that said he had sinus problems and he waited 1 year to get into an ENT at the VA...but couldn't get in for one entire year. He decided to go to private ENT and ended up in my private office for an extraction....all within 3 days. Like I said, it just seems slower in general...and what do Americans want? Fast, cheap, healthcare. Do I think healthcare needs fixing? Yes I do, but I don't think single payer will do anything but worsen it. Two tiers and more regulations into insurance and I think we will have a good fix.
 
Last edited:
May 22, 2018
216
42
21
Wow. You went full socialism there sir/ma’am

Of course govt is why the premiums are so high, they mandate the coverages (including not allowing preexisting exemptions that you love so much) and forcing people to buy. Govt forcing to buy is how they get to be so expensive

Mandate down the price of drugs and the drugs stop getting found, it’s a ROI calculation.
What is wrong with socialism? Why are so afraid of it? I am not against capitalism. But it will never work for essential goods and services. We need a mix of them just like the other countries. Banking, healthcare, education, energy should be under the government control.

Again, you are lying. Which mandate raises the premium? Explain it. Do they mandate employer based plans? Then , why they are expensive? I do not call it a insurance plan if doesn’t give elaborate coverage. Then you are just gifting your money. You are not answering, how the government controlled plans offer elaborate coverage including preexisting conditions with no deductibles, copays at one third cost? Why are you against it?
 

VA Hopeful Dr

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
Jul 28, 2004
19,623
24,168
281
Status
Attending Physician
Regulations are must to keeps things in order, protect the weak from getting exploited, etc. if you revoke the criminal laws, 90% will become criminals. If you revoke traffic rules, no one can get on the road. People who don’t want regulations, basically want to make money in a dishonest and quick way. Honest people will not afraid of regulations.

Taxes are good. We live in a society, not in individual islands. You need money to maintain it. The taxes have to be progressive . People make more , should pay more %. It is a stupid joke to let go corporations making billions in profit without paying a single penny. Only in this stupid country things like this will happen With no one raising any voice against.

Social security is a must. You may not need it but the rest need it. The govt should pay back the 2.4 trillion they stole from SS. They should lift the cap on earnings and deduct SS from entire earnings including investments.

Presence of honest, independent and patriotic media is a must for a vibrant democracy. The government should regulate the media, place investment limit by any individual so that they cannot control it. They should prevent banking, energy, healthcare entities to advertise on media . They buy the influence over the media in the form of advertisements and advance their agenda.
Who said anything about repealing criminal law?

Taxes absolutely don't have to progressive.

Corporations do pay taxes - property taxes, payroll taxes, taxes on stock dividends. This is spoken like someone who doesn't understand either how a business works or how taxes work.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NITRAS

VA Hopeful Dr

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
Jul 28, 2004
19,623
24,168
281
Status
Attending Physician
It is a lie to say that the government is the reason for higher premiums. It won’t become true no matter how many times you repeat. The government has zero control over the health insurance companies. They are jagging up the premium, copay, deductibles BECAUSE THEY CAN AND THE CONSUMER HAS NO OPTION BUT TO BUY. Without comprehensive coverage, why the hell you have to buy the insurance? You seem to be fascinated with not covering the preexisting conditions, do you ever think about anyone other than you? Again, what is an insurance that don’t cover preexisting conditions?

All other countries where government controls the healthcare, provide comprehensive coverage to all their citizens with no copay, deductibles etc at one third of cost of what we pay in this stupid country. Why it is so hard to understand? It baffles me when people ask where is the money and how do you pay for Medicare for all etc. Do the private insurance companies give free insurance? Aren’t we paying three times more than other countries for so called lousy coverage? Where do we get money from?

We have to get rid of every private insurance company, negotiate doctor, hospital fees, import the medicine from where it is the cheapest, build government hospitals, employ government doctors. Do everything to take care of the people. Enough of sucking up to the rich corporations and executives in the name of freedom , capitalism etc. They are nothing but parasites. Free market capitalism will never work for essential goods and services. That’s why the drug companies are able to charge $2000 for the AIDS medicine which they sell for only $8 in Australia, and they defend themselves in front of the congress without any shame. In Australia, the government works for the people but here our politicians suck up to the corporations and call it capitalism. The stupid people also believes it for generations.
Utter bull****.

The government is absolutely the reason costs are going up. I'll even explain how:

First, they have outlawed physician ownership of hospitals/ and imaging/surgery centers. This is stupid. Privately owned imaging/surgery centers are orders of magnitude cheaper than hospitals.

Second, unfunded mandates like EMTALA cost hospitals loads of money. They recoup that money by charging a lot for those of us with insurance. You think all the costs associated with an MRI actually is $3000?

Third, regulations. Go find out how many employees your local hospital has just to make sure they are in compliance with Medicare. Its a lot. That cost is passed on to the patients.

As for the free market not working for drug prices - utter hogwash. Brand name drugs are not in the free market. You know what are? Generic drugs. You know what are really cheap? Generic drugs.

You know why hospital executives are so prevalent now as opposed to 20 years ago? Increasing government regulation made it almost impossible to have a private practice. There's a reason why doctors only started working for hospitals in large numbers within the recent past.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NITRAS and sb247

VA Hopeful Dr

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
Jul 28, 2004
19,623
24,168
281
Status
Attending Physician
  • Like
Reactions: sb247

sb247

Doer of things
5+ Year Member
Jul 5, 2012
19,854
29,601
131
Galt's Gulch
What is wrong with socialism? Why are so afraid of it? I am not against capitalism. But it will never work for essential goods and services. We need a mix of them just like the other countries. Banking, healthcare, education, energy should be under the government control.

Again, you are lying. Which mandate raises the premium? Explain it. Do they mandate employer based plans? Then , why they are expensive? I do not call it a insurance plan if doesn’t give elaborate coverage. Then you are just gifting your money. You are not answering, how the government controlled plans offer elaborate coverage including preexisting conditions with no deductibles, copays at one third cost? Why are you against it?
The costs go up when you increase the required number of things they must cover (pre-existing condition coverage is expensive) and then you control the demand side of the supply/demand curve by requiring that people buy

Yes, employer based plans are mandated

Your understanding of the word, "insurance" is incorrect. For instance, auto insurance doesn't chip in for gas. My home insurance never replaced my light bulbs. And I could never damage my home/car and then expect to go buy insurance to pay for the pre-existing damage.

This isn't even subjective, that's really basic understanding of how this works
 

VA Hopeful Dr

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
Jul 28, 2004
19,623
24,168
281
Status
Attending Physician
Again, you are lying. Which mandate raises the premium? Explain it. Do they mandate employer based plans? Then , why they are expensive? I do not call it a insurance plan if doesn’t give elaborate coverage. Then you are just gifting your money. You are not answering, how the government controlled plans offer elaborate coverage including preexisting conditions with no deductibles, copays at one third cost? Why are you against it?
That's easy:

Mandated free preventative care.

No pre-existing condition exclusion/cost increase.

Plus all the other stuff I mentioned in a previous post.
 

Rainee

7+ Year Member
Mar 31, 2010
1,434
1,090
181
Status
What is wrong with socialism? Why are so afraid of it? I am not against capitalism. But it will never work for essential goods and services. We need a mix of them just like the other countries. Banking, healthcare, education, energy should be under the government control.
From a philosophy standpoint: the biggest problem with socialism is that there is no incentive. Period. No incentive then people slack. It's human nature to work hard and get rewarded. If everyone gets the same across the board then whats the point?

Take away that incentive, and those workers that were willing to go 10 years of their life to go to school will find another job and or even leave their home country for a better opportunity. Noone is going to take 4 years of school, 4 years of medical school, 4 years of fellowship, for half the income, more liabilities, 300-500k worth of 7% interest debt and longer working hours with more patients and more bureaucratic tape. Medicine is already at the breaking point of it not being worth it anymore. Socialism will just make all the smart kids go somewhere else like computer science, or finance, or MBA business.

That's just it. There's a good quote: Capitalism creates unequal wealth, but Socialism creates equal poverty. If one has the opportunity to make it out of their current state...and be better off financially they will take the OPPORTUNITY to do that. Who doesn't want an opportunity. That's why people go into business, that's why people give up a decade in school for the opportunity for a change and better themselves. That's simply it, and that's why I love my country, because it gives that opportunity.
 
Last edited:
May 22, 2018
216
42
21
If you have ever worked in the industry then you would understand. If you haven't- are a student- in school- then you just wouldn't understand. My specialists takes medicaid- the state/gov run insurance...for every treatment they have to predetermine coverage that may or may not get back for months. When the determination comes back, it can take upwards to 3-6 months to get paid. The pay is substantially less then private insurance- we are talking like 50% off normal PPO prices.

With a normal decent insurance company, you get predetermination back within a week, you get paid within 2 weeks, and is 50% higher in fees.

From what I've seen, the gov system is slower in all aspects and in addition reimburses less. From what I've seen, anything gov related within my healthcare field is convoluted, and doesn't make sense.

Oh that's interesting- I just met a patient that said he had sinus problems and he waited 1 year to get into an ENT at the VA...but couldn't get in for one entire year. He decided to go to private ENT and ended up in my private office for an extraction....all within 3 days. Like I said, it just seems slower in general...and what do Americans want? Fast, cheap, healthcare. Do I think healthcare needs fixing? Yes I do, but I don't think single payer will do anything but worsen it. Two tiers and more regulations into insurance and I think we will have a good fix.
I have worked for a private health insurance company and have pretty good idea. For every quarter, to exceed the Wall Street expectations, first they will deny the claims, then raise the premium, copay and deductible as much as they want.

Most of the problems you complain about the VA can be addressed by increasing the funding. The private companies can raise the premiums how much ever they want, no one will object and pay readily. But the public entities do not have that luxury, they have to work with what they have. If some politicians propose to increase the funding for VA, the republicans will stand in the way. Their long term obsession to hand over the VA as well to their private pay masters. So they do everything possible to discredit them.

Problems and inefficiency will be there in government and private entities. Since you are paranoid about the government, you point out the issues with them but you will go silent on issues with private entities. I have worked for Government agencies as well I did not see any issues whatsoever. It is all wild imagination and brain washing done by the politicians and Fox News.

If there is truly inefficiency exists in government entities, we can fix them. We should not use it as excuse and fall at the feet of blood sucking private companies and defend them even if they charge three times than other countries and $2000 for a medication that they sell for $8 in other countries. They are just pissing on our innocent helpless countrymen.
 
Aug 11, 2017
417
206
41
Status
Medical Student
It is the republican politicians that you worship, stole the money, not the government.

I am not advocating for government to control the media but it should prevent the influential people from controlling the media
Some of what you said has some validity, but you seem to have gotten extremely emotional over this topic and your paragraphs kind of lost quality as they went on. It is clear you have never actually spoken to a foreign doctor or worked in a foreign system and are just regurgitating millennial BS you've heard on Facebook which preaches "Easy fixes" that would make America full of healthy passionate people with rainbows all over. Both sides of the government are corrupt, don't believe everything the democrats say just because they want to sell you lies about equality and fairness so they can laugh all the way to the bank on their private jets. It has nothing to do with republicans stealing money, and I'm not even a republican. You've fallen for the simplest trick in the book: Tell all millennials to hate republicans so the democrats can continue winning you over while also ripping you off. You should go see how VA Doctors like being government employees.

And I'm not saying full private insurance isn't corrupt either, there obviously needs to be a middle ground.
 
  • Like
Reactions: VA Hopeful Dr

sb247

Doer of things
5+ Year Member
Jul 5, 2012
19,854
29,601
131
Galt's Gulch
I have worked for a private health insurance company and have pretty good idea. For every quarter, to exceed the Wall Street expectations, first they will deny the claims, then raise the premium, copay and deductible as much as they want.

Most of the problems you complain about the VA can be addressed by increasing the funding. The private companies can raise the premiums how much ever they want, no one will object and pay readily. But the public entities do not have that luxury, they have to work with what they have. If some politicians propose to increase the funding for VA, the republicans will stand in the way. Their long term obsession to hand over the VA as well to their private pay masters. So they do everything possible to discredit them.

Problems and inefficiency will be there in government and private entities. Since you are paranoid about the government, you point out the issues with them but you will go silent on issues with private entities. I have worked for Government agencies as well I did not see any issues whatsoever. It is all wild imagination and brain washing done by the politicians and Fox News.

If there is truly inefficiency exists in government entities, we can fix them. We should not use it as excuse and fall at the feet of blood sucking private companies and defend them even if they charge three times than other countries and $2000 for a medication that they sell for $8 in other countries. They are just pissing on our innocent helpless countrymen.
The problem is if a private company starts charging too much, the customers can leave for other options or stop buying altogether, when the customers leave that company has to either change or close

But you want govt to do it. They can jail you if you try to leave the system and they can just tax you more if they budget poorly.

One of those systems is clearly superior (hint, it's the one that can't jail you and seize your money)
 
May 22, 2018
216
42
21
From a philosophy standpoint: the biggest problem with socialism is that there is no incentive. Period. No incentive then people slack. It's human nature to work hard and get rewarded. If everyone gets the same across the board then whats the point?

Take away that incentive, and those workers that were willing to go 10 years of their life to go to school will find another job and or even leave their home country for a better opportunity. Noone is going to take 4 years of school, 4 years of medical school, 4 years of fellowship, for half the income, more liabilities, 300-500k worth of 7% interest debt and longer working hours with more patients and more bureaucratic tape. Medicine is already at the breaking point of it not being worth it anymore. Socialism will just make all the smart kids go somewhere else like computer science, or finance, or MBA business.

That's just it. There's a good quote: Capitalism creates unequal wealth, but Socialism creates equal poverty. If one has the opportunity to make it out of their current state...and be better off financially they will take the OPPORTUNITY to do that. Who doesn't want an opportunity. That's why people go into business, that's why people give up a decade in school for the opportunity for a change and better themselves. That's simply it, and that's why I love my country, because it gives that opportunity.
You did not fully read my post I guess. I am not against capitalism. But capitalism is not the answer for every aspect of our life. We need a mix of them just like ALL OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE. THEY ARE NOT SOCIALIST COUNTRIES, THEY ARE CAPITALIST COUNTRIES TOO. When a service or good is essential, the consumer will not be able to say NO if he felt the price is high, so the supplier can charge as much as they want. That’s why the drug companies charge $2000 for a medicine that they sell for $8 in other countries. They are able to charge Epipen for $800 even though it is worth only $2. Because they consumer HAS NO OTHER OPTION BUT TO PAY. That’s why you need government to help the situation.

You are right about medical school cost. The government should make medical education free.
 

sb247

Doer of things
5+ Year Member
Jul 5, 2012
19,854
29,601
131
Galt's Gulch
You did not fully read my post I guess. I am not against capitalism. But capitalism is not the answer for every aspect of our life. We need a mix of them just like ALL OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE. THEY ARE NOT SOCIALIST COUNTRIES, THEY ARE CAPITALIST COUNTRIES TOO. When a service or good is essential, the consumer will not be able to say NO if he felt the price is high, so the supplier can charge as much as they want. That’s why the drug companies charge $2000 for a medicine that they sell for $8 in other countries. They are able to charge Epipen for $800 even though it is worth only $2. Because they consumer HAS NO OTHER OPTION BUT TO PAY. That’s why you need government to help the situation.

You are right about medical school cost. The government should make medical education free.
Govt made the epipen situation. Without them blocking there would be a lot of epipen competition

No, med school should not be fre
 
  • Like
Reactions: VA Hopeful Dr
Aug 11, 2017
417
206
41
Status
Medical Student
You did not fully read my post I guess. I am not against capitalism. But capitalism is not the answer for every aspect of our life. We need a mix of them just like ALL OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE. THEY ARE NOT SOCIALIST COUNTRIES, THEY ARE CAPITALIST COUNTRIES TOO. When a service or good is essential, the consumer will not be able to say NO if he felt the price is high, so the supplier can charge as much as they want. That’s why the drug companies charge $2000 for a medicine that they sell for $8 in other countries. They are able to charge Epipen for $800 even though it is worth only $2. Because they consumer HAS NO OTHER OPTION BUT TO PAY. That’s why you need government to help the situation.

You are right about medical school cost. The government should make medical education free.
You say you don't want socialism but you want medical school to be completely free. You want healthcare to be completely free. Let me take a gander that you probably also want all illegals to get free healthcare, and, you also want all public education and private schooling and undergraduate colleges to be free too. While we're at it, all corporations have price ceilings that are mandated by the government. So, at what point, when taxes are ~80%, are you in a socialist country? lol.

The reason our things are the best and people want to have them are because of the competition that the free market has allowed for. Health insurance is corrupt and definitely needs reformatting to make more comprehensible affordable plans, but the government doesn't need to get involved.
 
  • Like
Reactions: VA Hopeful Dr
May 22, 2018
216
42
21
The problem is if a private company starts charging too much, the customers can leave for other options or stop buying altogether, when the customers leave that company has to either change or close

But you want govt to do it. They can jail you if you try to leave the system and they can just tax you more if they budget poorly.

One of those systems is clearly superior (hint, it's the one that can't jail you and seize your money)
I do not like private insurance, but I do not have other option. Not buying is an option in this country. If you get one serious illness, you will go bankrupt.

Regarding probability of government raising tax for healthcare, what option do you have when the private insurance raises premium, copay, deductibles etc? Why are you not complaining about it? You seem to be happy with three times more than what the other countrymen do, but concerned about government raising tax.

Regarding your complain about government jailing you, seizing your money, it is all your wild imagination and being paranoid. There is no cure for it.
 

VA Hopeful Dr

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
Jul 28, 2004
19,623
24,168
281
Status
Attending Physician
Regarding your complain about government jailing you, seizing your money, it is all your wild imagination and being paranoid. There is no cure for it.
False. What do you think will happen if you refuse to pay the Medicare for All tax?

Also as a physician, what do you think happens if I try to bill patients if they have Medicare?
 
  • Like
Reactions: sb247
May 22, 2018
216
42
21
You say you don't want socialism but you want medical school to be completely free. You want healthcare to be completely free. Let me take a gander that you probably also want all illegals to get free healthcare, and, you also want all public education and private schooling and undergraduate colleges to be free too. While we're at it, all corporations have price ceilings that are mandated by the government. So, at what point, when taxes are ~80%, are you in a socialist country? lol.

The reason our things are the best and people want to have them are because of the competition that the free market has allowed for. Health insurance is corrupt and definitely needs reformatting to make more comprehensible affordable plans, but the government doesn't need to get involved.
I am not against capitalism or socialism, we can use either wherever appropriate just like other countries. Without making medical education free, we can’t expect the doctors not to charge higher fees and we can’t control the cost. Healthcare cannot be free. I just want to pay just as much tax as other countrymen do for healthcare which happen to be one third of what I pay now AS PREMIUMS. Public universities have to be free but not the private. I am against illegal immigration, we need a wall, deport every illegal immediately. No benefits for any illegals. We do not need price ceiling for all companies but only those provide essential services and exploit the innocent. No country is having 80% income tax , don’t be paranoid. Nothing is free, either you pay tax or pay fees. I do not consider paying three times fee instead of one third tax, as smart.

I am not a socialist, communist or capitalist. Adopt what is best for every situation.
 

sb247

Doer of things
5+ Year Member
Jul 5, 2012
19,854
29,601
131
Galt's Gulch
I do not like private insurance, but I do not have other option. Not buying is an option in this country. If you get one serious illness, you will go bankrupt.

Regarding probability of government raising tax for healthcare, what option do you have when the private insurance raises premium, copay, deductibles etc? Why are you not complaining about it? You seem to be happy with three times more than what the other countrymen do, but concerned about government raising tax.

Regarding your complain about government jailing you, seizing your money, it is all your wild imagination and being paranoid. There is no cure for it.
is the bolded a typo? that makes no sense
and yes, seizing your money and jailing you if you don't give it up is exactly how taxes work
I am not against capitalism or socialism, we can use either wherever appropriate just like other countries. Without making medical education free, we can’t expect the doctors not to charge higher fees and we can’t control the cost. Healthcare cannot be free. I just want to pay just as much tax as other countrymen do for healthcare which happen to be one third of what I pay now AS PREMIUMS. Public universities have to be free but not the private. I am against illegal immigration, we need a wall, deport every illegal immediately. No benefits for any illegals. We do not need price ceiling for all companies but only those provide essential services and exploit the innocent. No country is having 80% income tax , don’t be paranoid. Nothing is free, either you pay tax or pay fees. I do not consider paying three times fee instead of one third tax, as smart.

I am not a socialist, communist or capitalist. Adopt what is best for every situation.
Public universities absolutely do not have to be free.
 

sb247

Doer of things
5+ Year Member
Jul 5, 2012
19,854
29,601
131
Galt's Gulch
Yes the bolded one was a typo. I meant to say “not buying insurance is NOT an option.
But not buying the ridiculous comprehensive plans we have now and going with a catastrophic plan would be a fabulous financial option if govt didn’t mess with the system
 
May 22, 2018
216
42
21
But not buying the ridiculous comprehensive plans we have now and going with a catastrophic plan would be a fabulous financial option if govt didn’t mess with the system
I beg to differ with you here. May be you are blessed with good genes/health but not everyone. So buying catastrophic plan will not work for everyone.

Personally I will be very happy if I can get rid of the insurance. The premiums, copays and deductible have become crazy. We all look foolish to pay that much but we never get to use any of it. I would like to get rid of it and on my own. But the issue here is that the fees charged by physicians, labs and hospitals are astronomically high if you go to them without insurance. For example, recently I gave a blood test. The bill was $1500 but negotiated amount was $45. Can you believe this? This is how the capitalist superior private lab operates in this stupid country. Since I had insurance I paid only $45 otherwise I would have had to pay $1500. See how crazy it would have been. Same thing with doctors and hospitals.

So if the government at least controls/fixes the pricing, I will be able to get rid of the stupid insurance. But then , most of the people will fight against it because for them anything the tries to do, IT BECOMES SOCIALISM AND THEY ARE TERRIFIED OF IT. The people from other countries must be laughing rolling on the floor looking at us.
 

VA Hopeful Dr

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
Jul 28, 2004
19,623
24,168
281
Status
Attending Physician
I beg to differ with you here. May be you are blessed with good genes/health but not everyone. So buying catastrophic plan will not work for everyone.

Personally I will be very happy if I can get rid of the insurance. The premiums, copays and deductible have become crazy. We all look foolish to pay that much but we never get to use any of it. I would like to get rid of it and on my own. But the issue here is that the fees charged by physicians, labs and hospitals are astronomically high if you go to them without insurance. For example, recently I gave a blood test. The bill was $1500 but negotiated amount was $45. Can you believe this? This is how the capitalist superior private lab operates in this stupid country. Since I had insurance I paid only $45 otherwise I would have had to pay $1500. See how crazy it would have been. Same thing with doctors and hospitals.

So if the government at least controls/fixes the pricing, I will be able to get rid of the stupid insurance. But then , most of the people will fight against it because for them anything the tries to do, IT BECOMES SOCIALISM AND THEY ARE TERRIFIED OF IT. The people from other countries must be laughing rolling on the floor looking at us.
So you realize that you can negotiate cash prices for that same amount right?
 
  • Like
Reactions: sb247
May 22, 2018
216
42
21
So you realize that you can negotiate cash prices for that same amount right?
You are missing the point. If I go to them without the insurance I would have to pay $1500. To get this negotiated price I am paying $20000 in premiums. So if the government forces price control, I don’t have to dish out $20000 every year on top of it. I am just asking you directly, why can’t you say what they are doing is wrong? Why do you feel obligated to defend these scumbags ? What difference is to them if someone comes to them with or without insurance? Do they have any conscience? Why is it so difficult for you to say it is immoral to take advantage of helpless people? You guys are parroting at every instance that the government is inefficient, ineffective, controlling etc. how can you turn a blind eye to these kind of atrocities? Don’t you think this is controlling and forcing you to buy insurance to get the negotiated price? Why the hell they can’t charge the damn $45 for everyone ? Answer me directly. There is nothing wrong to admit when you are wrong. The silence of the majority of the people like you are the sole reason for this situation.

There is nothing wrong in learning from other countries. See what they do right and try to do the same instead of sucking up to these blood suckers in the name of capitalism
 

Rainee

7+ Year Member
Mar 31, 2010
1,434
1,090
181
Status
You are missing the point. If I go to them without the insurance I would have to pay $1500. To get this negotiated price I am paying $20000 in premiums. So if the government forces price control, I don’t have to dish out $20000 every year on top of it. I am just asking you directly, why can’t you say what they are doing is wrong? Why do you feel obligated to defend these scumbags ? What difference is to them if someone comes to them with or without insurance? Do they have any conscience? Why is it so difficult for you to say it is immoral to take advantage of helpless people? You guys are parroting at every instance that the government is inefficient, ineffective, controlling etc. how can you turn a blind eye to these kind of atrocities? Don’t you think this is controlling and forcing you to buy insurance to get the negotiated price? Why the hell they can’t charge the damn $45 for everyone ? Answer me directly. There is nothing wrong to admit when you are wrong. The silence of the majority of the people like you are the sole reason for this situation.

There is nothing wrong in learning from other countries. See what they do right and try to do the same instead of sucking up to these blood suckers in the name of capitalism
Unfortunately there really has to be a balance between the two. A single payer system sorta like what UK has is failing and at a breaking point. On the other hand healthcare here has gotten to expensive
You are missing the point. If I go to them without the insurance I would have to pay $1500. To get this negotiated price I am paying $20000 in premiums. So if the government forces price control, I don’t have to dish out $20000 every year on top of it. I am just asking you directly, why can’t you say what they are doing is wrong? Why do you feel obligated to defend these scumbags ? What difference is to them if someone comes to them with or without insurance? Do they have any conscience? Why is it so difficult for you to say it is immoral to take advantage of helpless people? You guys are parroting at every instance that the government is inefficient, ineffective, controlling etc. how can you turn a blind eye to these kind of atrocities? Don’t you think this is controlling and forcing you to buy insurance to get the negotiated price? Why the hell they can’t charge the damn $45 for everyone ? Answer me directly. There is nothing wrong to admit when you are wrong. The silence of the majority of the people like you are the sole reason for this situation.

There is nothing wrong in learning from other countries. See what they do right and try to do the same instead of sucking up to these blood suckers in the name of capitalism
I think one Of the things you maybe missing is that other countries don’t exactly have fairy tale systems either. Docs in Europe and japan work a ton for minimal pay. There are waiting lines in the ER in NHS Britain. There is shortage of staff in UK because the staff are fed up with the beauracracy, the amount of patients, the pay and the failures of the gov. Staff leave to go to other countries because they are worth their pay there. Patients wait and wait and wait and have to go through a series of hoops before treatment can be performed. Patients have had their treatments postponed due to rationing.




Look at NHS dentistry... it’s a complete failure.

The US has some of the best cutting edge medicine in the world- partially driven by capitalism and the pursuit of profit. You want the best care in the world? You go to the states not to UK. My receptionist the other day found a funny skin mole on her back two weeks ago. She saw a dermatologist the next 48 hours, and had it excised removed and biopsied negative return within 1 week. Just had normal PPO insurance. I shudder to think how long it would take under single payer.

Yes there are things that can be fixed but I think your posts have this rosy tinted view of other countries when in reality some of the best systems are two payer systems with some regulations.

Just food for thought. There are benefits to both sides. And I do agree with some of your points.
 
Last edited:

sb247

Doer of things
5+ Year Member
Jul 5, 2012
19,854
29,601
131
Galt's Gulch
You are missing the point. If I go to them without the insurance I would have to pay $1500. To get this negotiated price I am paying $20000 in premiums. So if the government forces price control, I don’t have to dish out $20000 every year on top of it. I am just asking you directly, why can’t you say what they are doing is wrong? Why do you feel obligated to defend these scumbags ? What difference is to them if someone comes to them with or without insurance? Do they have any conscience? Why is it so difficult for you to say it is immoral to take advantage of helpless people? You guys are parroting at every instance that the government is inefficient, ineffective, controlling etc. how can you turn a blind eye to these kind of atrocities? Don’t you think this is controlling and forcing you to buy insurance to get the negotiated price? Why the hell they can’t charge the damn $45 for everyone ? Answer me directly. There is nothing wrong to admit when you are wrong. The silence of the majority of the people like you are the sole reason for this situation.

There is nothing wrong in learning from other countries. See what they do right and try to do the same instead of sucking up to these blood suckers in the name of capitalism
You are missing the point. The $1500 is not “real”, they don’t make cash payers pay that.

That’s a financial strategy because some insurances negotiate to x% of the bill, so the bill gets artificially inflated.
 
  • Like
Reactions: VA Hopeful Dr

VA Hopeful Dr

Senior Member
10+ Year Member
Jul 28, 2004
19,623
24,168
281
Status
Attending Physician
You are missing the point. If I go to them without the insurance I would have to pay $1500. To get this negotiated price I am paying $20000 in premiums. So if the government forces price control, I don’t have to dish out $20000 every year on top of it. I am just asking you directly, why can’t you say what they are doing is wrong? Why do you feel obligated to defend these scumbags ? What difference is to them if someone comes to them with or without insurance? Do they have any conscience? Why is it so difficult for you to say it is immoral to take advantage of helpless people? You guys are parroting at every instance that the government is inefficient, ineffective, controlling etc. how can you turn a blind eye to these kind of atrocities? Don’t you think this is controlling and forcing you to buy insurance to get the negotiated price? Why the hell they can’t charge the damn $45 for everyone ? Answer me directly. There is nothing wrong to admit when you are wrong. The silence of the majority of the people like you are the sole reason for this situation.

There is nothing wrong in learning from other countries. See what they do right and try to do the same instead of sucking up to these blood suckers in the name of capitalism
No you are unaware of how things actually work.

Most hospitals and labs offer significant discounts if you tell them upfront that you are paying cash. I used to own a cash-only primary care practice so I'm quite well versed in cash prices.

For example, I recently has some blood work done using my insurance. Here's the price breakdown:

Lipid panel: $50
CMP: $60
Testosterone: $110

The exact same tests from the cash rates using Quest Diagnostics in my practice:

Lipid panel: $7
CMP: $5
Testosterone: :$20
 
Mar 19, 2019
81
53
31
I don't currently have insurance. its cheaper for me to pay the cash price, and I just make a note of everything I need taken care of, and when I do get insurance I lump it all together. Once everything is taken care of, I drop my insurance again.
 
Sep 8, 2017
59
21
11
Status
Non-Student
Unfortunately there really has to be a balance between the two. A single payer system sorta like what UK has is failing and at a breaking point. On the other hand healthcare here has gotten to expensive


I think one Of the things you maybe missing is that other countries don’t exactly have fairy tale systems either. Docs in Europe and japan work a ton for minimal pay. There are waiting lines in the ER in NHS Britain. There is shortage of staff in UK because the staff are fed up with the beauracracy, the amount of patients, the pay and the failures of the gov. Staff leave to go to other countries because they are worth their pay there. Patients wait and wait and wait and have to go through a series of hoops before treatment can be performed. Patients have had their treatments postponed due to rationing.




Look at NHS dentistry... it’s a complete failure.

The US has some of the best cutting edge medicine in the world- partially driven by capitalism and the pursuit of profit. You want the best care in the world? You go to the states not to UK. My receptionist the other day found a funny skin mole on her back two weeks ago. She saw a dermatologist the next 48 hours, and had it excised removed and biopsied negative return within 1 week. Just had normal PPO insurance. I shudder to think how long it would take under single payer.

Yes there are things that can be fixed but I think your posts have this rosy tinted view of other countries when in reality some of the best systems are two payer systems with some regulations.

Just food for thought. There are benefits to both sides. And I do agree with some of your points.
In the U.S., it's the best if you're loaded. But the worst system if you're a regular citizen. Just take the L. It's coming. The "career politician" days are numbered. The only delay is voters, under 45, don't come out to vote in the upcoming Democratic primary. Biden is favorite, but we know him very well. He ran for president twice before and flopped. His base is older Democrats. But how long can he keep talking about "nothing-ness" for a year? When Sanders is talking about expanding Social Security while Biden talking about cutting it. If it was a 3-month primary, he can win, but for a whole year?
 
Last edited:

IknowImnotadoctor

2+ Year Member
Apr 11, 2016
988
360
81
Status
Pre-Health (Field Undecided)
So the government forced health insurance to sky rocket.. just like they did with student loans and tuition. But the only way to fix that problem then is to reformat the whole system. Just out of curiosity, I have no knowledge of actual prices since I haven't had to buy insurance ever in my life (Yay having workings parents and getting accepted to school before 26!) but what is the cheapest insurance plan one could buy, if Medicare was abolished tomorrow?

According to eHealth.com, the cost for a single-person coverage healthcare is generally ~$440 / month. For a family, 1,160$ a month. That's 13,920$ a year. The average household income is 60,000$ pre-tax. 22% tax rate leaves you with 46,000$. I live in NY so 6.33% tax rate = 42k / year.

14,000 is 33% of your household income to health insurance.
900$/month for rent = 9600$ / year = 22% of household income.
12k / year for food = 29% of your household income for a family.

That leaves the average American household with only 6.6k a year. I haven't even factored in gas, car insurance, heating and cooling, internet, cell phone, all things the average American needs to live, get to work, and function in a society that demands you to be "connected" at all times - Doctors aren't the only people that take call or work extra hours at home, so internet and cell phone are essentials.

Basically, this leaves the average American will extremely very tight wiggle room to even begin saving. I didn't even factor student loans that I'm sure the parents are paying off either!

Btw the 14,000 for a family is one of the cheapest plans possible. I don't know what this covers, but you better pray you don't ACTUALLY get sick and need a sudden visit to the ER or get into a car accident, you'll be in debt for a very long time. And you can't really have a rainy day fund because where in the budget was a savings even possible?

33% of your income for the average American for the LOWEST plan is ridiculous. And the average income salary of 60,000 is probably even high for a lot of people.
Basically if you’re not rich you should die is the libertarian solution to healthcare. They can offer nothing else.
 

Rainee

7+ Year Member
Mar 31, 2010
1,434
1,090
181
Status
In the U.S., it's the best if you're loaded. But the worst system if you're a regular citizen. Just take the L. It's coming. The "career politician" days are numbered. The only delay is voters, under 45, don't come out to vote in the upcoming Democratic primary. Biden is favorite, but we know him very well. He ran for president twice before and flopped. His base is older Democrats. But how long can he keep talking about "nothing-ness" for a year? When Sanders is talking about expanding Social Security while Biden talking about cutting it. If it was a 3-month primary, he can win, but for a whole year?
Cool, thanks for the insight.
 

IknowImnotadoctor

2+ Year Member
Apr 11, 2016
988
360
81
Status
Pre-Health (Field Undecided)
Not even close
To my understand the libertarian healthcare platform consists of non government intervention and complete control of healthcare by the private market. The inevitable consequence of this means that most people will be priced out of hospitalized care. The for profit healthcare model we have today is failing, while the socialized medicine model of the country to the north has, is, and will continue to thrive. I don’t understand how doubling down on what is a broken system will work.