what would you do?

[Law2Doc]

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allow me to rectify this:

you're not going to hell if you make the wrong decision here, you're going to hell because you touch yourself at night.


there, now we're all better.

As long as you use your one free hand to email the prof, I would agree. 🙂

 

[Green Pirate]

allow me to rectify this:

you're not going to hell if you make the wrong decision here, you're going to hell because you touch yourself at night.


there, now we're all better.

you, pennybridge, are going to hell for many more reasons than just touching yourself at night. I saw your drug lord posts earlier today

 

[pennybridge]

As long as you use your one free hand to email the prof, I would agree. 🙂

free hand? 😕


😀

 

[postbacker]

exactly, I agree with you to the extent of whistle-blowing to prevent actual harm.

A perfect rationalization if ever I saw one.

Babe, the "actual harm" is in the violation of the honor code itself. It is not up to you to determine if the consequences of the cheating harmed anyone else or not. The cheating alone is the harm.

 

[Law2Doc]

exactly, I agree with you to the extent of whistle-blowing to prevent actual harm.

A perfect rationalization if ever I saw one.

Babe, the "actual harm" is in the violation of the honor code itself. It is not up to you to determine if the consequences of the cheating harmed anyone else or not. The cheating alone is the harm.

Agree. The person with the duty isn't the person who decides what his duty should be or when it should be imposed. An honor code isn't a "when you feel like it" obligation. Nor is your professional obligation as a physician going to be different when you can determine what the actual harm is.

 

[Wanna_B_Scutty]

exactly, I agree with you to the extent of whistle-blowing to prevent actual harm.

edit// and for that same reason, sort of, I imagine is why many of us pursue medicine: to assume responsibility where others can't or won't.

But where an honor code exists, it is harmful to the fabric of that society to violate the honor code.

First, it is harmful in the obvious sense that the cheater will affect the curve, thus harming all the other students in the class. But even if there is no curve in this particular class, the cheating student will still have a higher than deserved grade when it comes time for applying for grad schools. Thus, the cheating student is likely to take the seat of an honorable student with a lower GPA when it comes time for admissions decisions.

But these immediate, practical effects are not the only harmful effects of cheating upon society. I would argue that a deeper and even more harmful effect is the contribution of callousness, irresponsibility, and dishonor that each of act of cheating has upon society as a whole. Each time someone cheats and others do nothing to stop it, society grows just a little more accepting of poor behavior. Society, at it core, is based upon the assumption that we will not harm each other, cheat each other, or lie to each other. When these assumptions no longer hold true, the bonds that tie us together as a unit falter.

 

[da8s0859q]

I agree, but to an extent. In practice, whistle blowing is necessary to prevent actual harm. There is little, if any, actual harm possible in this situation.

The question comes to be "where do the balls lie?"

In a case of "cheating" in its actual sense, it would be ballsy to turn someone in, especially "a friend"

in this instance, (until we found out later, thanks OP) it wasn't clear cut, and it sounded like the OP just had his/her panties in a twist because he/she might be getting gypsied out of a higher grade.

Turns out this wasn't the case, the OP's "friend" is a ******ed cheat, the professor is stupid, everyone in this thread is stupid, and I, especially, am stupid for actually participating instead of just making a joke like usual.


allow me to rectify this:

you're not going to hell if you make the wrong decision here, you're going to hell because you touch yourself at night.


there, now we're all better.

Penny for president of this thread.

(Oh, and on the traffic reporting bit, I've called the cops precisely one time: while witnessing an older gentleman almost strike other vehicles several times by grossly and spontaneously swerving into adjacent lanes. If I called someone in for driving a bit faster than me, they'd have to be doing 140 or so since I'm a little speed demon myself, and I'd just be in no position to take my hands off the damn wheel... so screw that idea.)

 

[pennybridge]

ronald mcdonald

 

[pennybridge]

ronald mcdonald

 

[Wanna_B_Scutty]

yeah and we can all hold hands and sing kumbaya all night and it's not going to reduce the number of kids that end up in EDs with bullet holes in them.

if you "babes" put half of the energy into preventing things that ACTUALLY harm society as opposed to this moral authority whimsical BULL**** we might actually make progress.

^^^ Actually, you may very well be wrong about this.

Please see this link for graphs of the change in violent crime and in property crime from 1960-2005. As you can see, the crime rate has risen in parallel with the changes in moral code that have arguably occured in our society.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

Now I'll be the first to admit that correlation cetainly does not guarantee causation. But it's food for thought, all the same. 😎

 

[Law2Doc]

I agree with you in theory but it's pointless in practice. In the perfect world you suggest, nobody would be cheating in the first place.

The folks on this thread could go a long way to creating this perfect world if everyone held up our end of the bargain and turned folks in. Folks only cheat if they think they won't get caught. If their classmates stood ready to string people up, would be cheaters might think twice. You are either part of the solution or part of the problem. To throw up your hands and say, the world is not perfect, people will always cheat, so it's pointless, is not the right approach.

 

[Green Pirate]

^^^ Actually, you may very well be wrong about this.

Please see this link for graphs of the change in violent crime and in property crime from 1960-2005. As you can see, the crime rate has risen in parallel with the changes in moral code that have arguably occured in our society.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

Now I'll be the first to admit that correlation cetainly does not guarantee causation. But it's food for thought, all the same. 😎

what moral code has changed in our society? morals that have been evolutionarily instilled in us have not changed. society thinks killing is just as wrong now as it was 30,000 years ago.

 

[youngnflyy]

The folks on this thread could go a long way to creating this perfect world if everyone held up our end of the bargain and turned folks in. Folks only cheat if they think they won't get caught. If their classmates stood ready to string people up, would be cheaters might think twice. You are either part of the solution or part of the problem. To throw up your hands and say, the world is not perfect, people will always cheat, so it's pointless, is not the right approach.

I have to disagree with you somewhat. To say that people only cheat because they are under the impression that they won't get caught is misleading. People cheat out of necessity. If you're failing a class, and it comes down to the final exam which will decided your fate, you would be cheating because you felt it was the only way to pass. I disagree with the notion that if everyone turns cheaters in then there would be no cheating. If someone wants to cheat badly enough, they will definitely find a way to get it done.

 

[Tired]

People cheat out of necessity. If you're failing a class, and it comes down to the final exam which will decided your fate, you would be cheating because you felt it was the only way to pass.

Guess you just gave everyone a nice overview of your sense of honor and ethics.

To the OP: Get better friends.

 

[Green Pirate]

I have to disagree with you somewhat. To say that people only cheat because they are under the impression that they won't get caught is misleading. People cheat out of necessity. If you're failing a class, and it comes down to the final exam which will decided your fate, you would be cheating because you felt it was the only way to pass. I disagree with the notion that if everyone turns cheaters in then there would be no cheating. If someone wants to cheat badly enough, they will definitely find a way to get it done.

I think law2doc is right on this point. some people who are really desperate would still try to cheat, but for the most part, if people felt there was a high chance they'd get caught I do think there would be significantly less cheating.

 

[youngnflyy]

Guess you just gave everyone a nice overview of your sense of honor and ethics.

To the OP: Get better friends.

I'm just presenting a much needed touch of realism.

 

[pennybridge]

ronald mcdonald

 

[Tired]

I'm just presenting a much needed touch of realism.

For you, I guess. I'm reasonably certain though, that the majority of folks here would never cheat, regardless of their academic situtation.

Maybe the OP should direct his/her "friend" to you for some tips on getting away with it.

 

[lilnoelle]

I would do this:

"dear Professor,
It recently came to my attention that several individuals in our class have decided to cooperate on their final exams by writing them together and have invited me to join. However, I first wanted to clarify whether working in groups was permitted."

Result:
1) you are safe (didn't name any people....very responsible and honest by asking whether it was allowed or not)
2) you will either get the ok to work with other people yourself OR the prof will take the necessary measures to make sure people don't do it. Either way, your friend won't be cheating, but s/he won't get in trouble for it. If the prof does decide that group work is cheating and pesters you for your friend's name, simply tell him that you cannot name the person for ethical reasons and thus made sure the prof was made aware of the act of potential cheating BEFORE it occured. Play stupid, basically.

I would probably do something like this.

And the Op has already decided what he is going to do.

 

[Mayday]

I would do this:

"dear Professor,
It recently came to my attention that several individuals in our class have decided to cooperate on their final exams by writing them together and have invited me to join. However, I first wanted to clarify whether working in groups was permitted."

Result:
1) you are safe (didn't name any people....very responsible and honest by asking whether it was allowed or not)
2) you will either get the ok to work with other people yourself OR the prof will take the necessary measures to make sure people don't do it. Either way, your friend won't be cheating, but s/he won't get in trouble for it. If the prof does decide that group work is cheating and pesters you for your friend's name, simply tell him that you cannot name the person for ethical reasons and thus made sure the prof was made aware of the act of potential cheating BEFORE it occured. Play stupid, basically.

I think this is probably the best possible way of dealing with the situation. I think the professor probably knows that something along these lines will happen - but this way your conscience is clear.

 

[Wanna_B_Scutty]

My issue is I just don't buy the "slippery slope" argument. I don't think it's valid. For this same reason, I don't think if your concern is the total devolution of society, turning in bio exam cheaters is the place to start.

And I agree with you that the "slippery slope" argument does not apply here. 🙂

It was never my intent to argue that cheating leads down the slippery slope to crime. Rather, I was trying to suggest that the decline of a sense of obligation to conduct oneself honorably within society leads to increases of both cheating and crime.

 

[postbacker]

I would do this:

"dear Professor,
It recently came to my attention that several individuals in our class have decided to cooperate on their final exams by writing them together and have invited me to join. However, I first wanted to clarify whether working in groups was permitted."

Result:
1) you are safe (didn't name any people....very responsible and honest by asking whether it was allowed or not)
2) you will either get the ok to work with other people yourself OR the prof will take the necessary measures to make sure people don't do it. Either way, your friend won't be cheating, but s/he won't get in trouble for it. If the prof does decide that group work is cheating and pesters you for your friend's name, simply tell him that you cannot name the person for ethical reasons and thus made sure the prof was made aware of the act of potential cheating BEFORE it occured. Play stupid, basically.

Many of you are citing this email approach as the best way to handle it, but there is a HUGE problem with the highlighted advice: Per the honor code, you are not in the position to choose whether or not you identify the cheater - you must report the cheater, if not by name (if you don't know it), then by detailed description.

Remember, once you became aware of the cheating, you yourself were in violation of the honor code until you reported it to the proper school officials.

 

[pennybridge]

ronald mcdonald

 

[pennybridge]

ronald mcdonald

 

[lilnoelle]

Many of you are citing this email approach as the best way to handle it, but there is a HUGE problem with the highlighted advice: Per the honor code, you are not in the position to choose whether or not you identify the cheater - you must report the cheater, if not by name (if you don't know it), then by detailed description.

Remember, once you became aware of the cheating, you yourself were in violation of the honor code until you reported it to the proper school officials.

Yeah, I agree, if the professor pushed me for information, I would probably tell him who was involved.

But I think since the cheating hasn't occurred yet the individuals involved wouldn't matter. What matters is the professor needs to clarify what the rules are on the final and to possibly prevent the cheating from taking place.
If the professor clarifies that cooperative test taking is not allowed for the final and the group still plans on meeting then the Op should definitely give out the names.

 

[postbacker]

so your motivation to turn in the cheat is to save your own skin? How honorable.

edit// doesn't it get boring viewing the world in only black and white?

You are either very naive, stupid, or just flat out have no ethical bearings whatsoever. Personal motivation plays no part in ethics. Nor does the "situation," or if it is my "friend," or if there is any "actual harm."

Did you not have to sign the honor code pledge at your school? Why did you matriculate there if you had no intention of actually living up to your pledge? Are you going to cross your fingers behind your back if you ever get the privilege of taking the Hippocratic Oath?

Regardless - I will NEVER read any post by you again without questioning your judgment and ethics.

Very sleazy...

 

[Steve203]

I like cheese

 

[postbacker]

Am I missing something here? It's a take home final...the professor isn't a ******...he knows people are going to work in groups/use the book/get help from others....give me a break people. If he didn't want people to use all the outside stuff, he wouldn't have made it take home.

Wow, is everyone really this uptight?? who gives a crap if people work in a group or use outside help?

IT'S A TAKE HOME FINAL!!!

OP cited his school's honor code - it is a violation to accept or render help to/from others on an exam.

So yeah, you are missing something.

 

[Wanna_B_Scutty]

Many of you are citing this email approach as the best way to handle it, but there is a HUGE problem with the highlighted advice: Per the honor code, you are not in the position to choose whether or not you identify the cheater - you must report the cheater, if not by name (if you don't know it), then by detailed description.

Remember, once you became aware of the cheating, you yourself were in violation of the honor code until you reported it to the proper school officials.

A good point, postbacker. I didn't see this section of the advice (was just skimming), but I agree with you that the OP would be obligated to tell if the Prof insisted.

 

[Steve203]

I like cheese

 

[pennybridge]

I can't believe I'm defending pennybridge....but you have to be kidding me bro....

Honor code pledge? You can't be serious....maybe he matriculated there because he wanted to get a good job someday and make money...
This is a money motivated society, my friend. Corporate america, the government, and your precious universities aren't following any damn honor code.

Actually wait, they are...it's called make as much money as possible.


and don't even get me started on the Hippocratic Oath.....

the enemy of my enemy is my friend 😎

 

[pennybridge]

Regardless - I will NEVER read any post by you again without questioning your judgment and ethics.

you read anything on the internet without questioning it?


yikes.

 

[Green Pirate]

and don't even get me started on the Hippocratic Oath.....

beat me to it

 

[Wanna_B_Scutty]

I can't believe I'm defending pennybridge....but you have to be kidding me bro....

Honor code pledge? You can't be serious....maybe he matriculated there because he wanted to get a good job someday and make money...
This is a money motivated society, my friend. Corporate america, the government, and your precious universities aren't following any damn honor code.

So you're saying that since other people and institutions behave poorly, then the OP should, too?

Wow. We should all definitely lower ourselves to the lowest common denominator. 👎 Whatever happened to the whole "be the change you want to see in the world" thing that Ghandi so wisely proposed?

 

[Steve203]

I like cheese

 

[Wanna_B_Scutty]

ever heard of an "honor killing?"

That is neither a crime, nor is it "dishonorable," the opposite, in fact. And yet it is still somehow....wait for it.....wrong.

the problem here is that people refuse to see the world as something larger than their lecture hall.

This is a very valid point, pennybridge. I stand corrected. 👍

 

[Green Pirate]

Whatever happened to the whole "be the change you want to see in the world" thing that Ghandi so wisely proposed?

it went out of fashion with loin cloths

 

[pennybridge]

ronald mcdonald

 

[CampusHippo]

Guess you just gave everyone a nice overview of your sense of honor and ethics.

To the OP: Get better friends.

No kidding! But sometimes good people make mistakes. What with all the "balls" talk going around, I haven't heard anyone come up with the balsy solution yet. (Although, I apologize if I missed it in a previous post while reading fast...)

Telling the Prof. might be the right thing to do, but it does make you feel like a tattle tale a bit. What about talking to CheatingFriend about this? Maybe it's all a big misunderstanding? Try: "Hey CheatingFriend, when we talked earlier it sounded like you were going to get extra help on the exam, and my understanding is that it's against the rules. If I didn't misunderstand you, that's pretty freaking uncool. Maybe you shouldn't..."

Ethical leadership isn't all about punishment. Sure this is awkward, but if I were a CheatingFriend it's what I'd want someone to do for me.

-CHO

 

[Steve203]

cheese is good

 

[pennybridge]

ronald mcdonald

 

[cyrille104]

Am I missing something here? It's a take home final...the professor isn't a ******...he knows people are going to work in groups/use the book/get help from others....give me a break people. If he didn't want people to use all the outside stuff, he wouldn't have made it take home.

Wow, is everyone really this uptight?? who gives a crap if people work in a group or use outside help?

IT'S A TAKE HOME FINAL!!!

👍 👍 👍

"A friend helps you move; a true friend helps you move bodies." I would definitely not want to be friends with most of the people in this thread.

People cheat and lie and break the law all the time. If you're on a campaign to eliminate all dishonesty in this world, you're in WAY over your heads.

 

[Wanna_B_Scutty]

No kidding! But sometimes good people make mistakes. What with all the "balls" talk going around, I haven't heard anyone come up with the balsy solution yet. (Although, I apologize if I missed it in a previous post while reading fast...)

Telling the Prof. might be the right thing to do, but it does make you feel like a tattle tale a bit. What about talking to CheatingFriend about this? Maybe it's all a big misunderstanding? Try: "Hey CheatingFriend, when we talked earlier it sounded like you were going to get extra help on the exam, and my understanding is that it's against the rules. If I didn't misunderstand you, that's pretty freaking uncool. Maybe you shouldn't..."

Ethical leadership isn't all about punishment. Sure this is awkward, but if I were a CheatingFriend it's what I'd want someone to do for me.

-CHO

A valid point. But the problem with it is that CheatingFriend now may suspect that you will turn him in if he doesn't commit to doing the right thing. So it's quite possible that he'll say, "Oh, scrubs, you are so right! I now see the error of my ways. Thank you for your leadership"... and then cheat, anyway. I suggest that the OP cannot trust CheatingFriend's word to take the test without cheating because CheatingFriend has already admited to being untrustworthy!

Thus, while I do admire your approach in theory, Campus, I would argue that CheatingFriend's admitted untrustworthiness renders it unworkable. 🙁 Perhaps the best solution is to e-mail the Prof... but also to talk to the friend.

 

[cyrille104]

maybe the change I want to see in the world is not "less people cheating on bio exams" but "less people being hyper-concerned that there are people cheating on bio exams"

YES 👍

 

[postbacker]

I can't believe I'm defending pennybridge....but you have to be kidding me bro....

Honor code pledge? You can't be serious....maybe he matriculated there because he wanted to get a good job someday and make money...
This is a money motivated society, my friend. Corporate america, the government, and your precious universities aren't following any damn honor code.

Actually wait, they are...it's called make as much money as possible.


and don't even get me started on the Hippocratic Oath.....

Pretty sad coming from a high school chemistry teacher.

Did you share this "side" of yourself with the Pitt med school ADCOM?

 

[Wanna_B_Scutty]

lol to be fair, I didn't mean it as an actual point, just trying to toss some of OPEC's finest on this here firestorm 🙂

Oh. That's sort of sad. I honestly saw it as one of your most thoughtful posts. 🙁

 

[CampusHippo]

A valid point. But the problem with it is that CheatingFriend now may suspect that you might turn him in if he doesn't say he'll do the right thing. So it's quite possible that he'll say, Oh, scrubs, you are so right! I now see the error of my ways. Thank you for your leadership"... and then cheat, anyway. I suggest that the OP cannot trust CheatingFriend's word to take the test without cheating because CheatingFriend has already admited to being untrustworthy!

Thus, while I do admire your approach in theory, Campus, I would argue that CheatingFriend's admited untrustworthiness renders it unworkable. 🙁

Sho nuf, but being upfront with CF gives you some wiggle room. A few possibilities could pan out:

1. Turns out CF totally misunderstood the rules, and thanks you for stopping him from totally blowing it.
2. Turns you OP misunderstood CF, or CF was joking. CF convinces OP of this, everything is cool.
3. CF really meant to cheat, but agrees not to as a courtesy to his friend.
4. CF really meant to cheat, and still is going to.

If 3 or 4 obtain, I'd feel totally justified saying, "CF, I tried to be cool and talk to you about this, but you're being a total and complete dickhead. You convince me that you're not going to cheat, or I'll drop a dime on you." A good way to convince might be both taking the test at the same time in the Prof's office.

You're right, though, at some point OP might have to choose between doing (what he thinks) is the right thing and his CF, and it's probably going to be bad for the friendship either way.

-CHO

 

[Wanna_B_Scutty]

If you're on a campaign to eliminate all dishonesty in this world, you're in WAY over your heads.

A journey of 1,000 miles begins with a single step. 😳

 

[Wanna_B_Scutty]

Sho nuf, but being upfront with CF gives you some wiggle room. A few possibilities could pan out....

---
.... A good way to convince might be both taking the test at the same time in the Prof's office.

You're right, though, at some point OP might have to choose between doing (what he thinks) is the right thing and his CF, and it's probably going to be bad for the friendship either way.

-CHO

This makes a lot of sense. I like it, and stand corrected. 😀

 

[lina123321]

i say...don't tell on 'em...the professor can't control what goes on outside the classroom (some of my profs cant even control what goes on during class exams, and thats a whole nother story )...but neways, the prof knows that some part of the class population will "cheat"...he'd have to be completely clueless if he didn't consider this a possiblity...

had the prof told u that notes/books couldnt be referenced for a takehome test, would you really abide his directions? ur premed...premeds are hungry for good gpa's...the only reason i would think u'd turn in other students is for the opportunity to get a good LOR outlining your moral fiber (note: i just had a flashback of one of the harry potter movies.. )