what would you do?

[da8s0859q]

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had the prof told u that notes/books couldnt be referenced for a takehome test, would you really abide his directions? ur premed...premeds are hungry for good gpa's...the only reason i would think u'd turn in other students is for the opportunity to get a good LOR outlining your moral fiber (note: i just had a flashback of one of the harry potter movies.. )

That's dirty.

 

[lilnoelle]

had the prof told u that notes/books couldnt be referenced for a takehome test, would you really abide his directions? ur premed...premeds are hungry for good gpa's...the only reason i would think u'd turn in other students is for the opportunity to get a good LOR outlining your moral fiber

Thats a pretty broad generalization. I know not all premeds are like that. I certainly wasn't.

 

[Wanna_B_Scutty]

had the prof told u that notes/books couldnt be referenced for a takehome test, would you really abide his directions?

This has happened to me. Well... the equivalent has happened to me: being given a make-up test in an empty classroom with no proctor and all my books and stuff with me. And yes, I chose to abide by my Professor's wishes. I'd rather sleep well at night with a "B" then lie awake at night, hating myself for my "A." But, the good news is that I got an "A," anyway. You don't have to cheat to do well. Hard work will get you where you want to go with more sweat but also a more peaceful conscience.

ur premed...premeds are hungry for good gpa's...

Not hungry enough to feel badly about myself for it.

the only reason i would think u'd turn in other students is for the opportunity to get a good LOR outlining your moral fiber

Nope. I actually once turned myself in. Specifically, my Physics Prof used a textbook for which one could buy the answer key online. I came across this answer key while trying to buy a copy of the textbook used on half.com. When I saw the answer key offered... I bought it. And it absolutely ate me up inside. After about a week of feeling truly awful about the whole thing, I e-mailed my Prof, told him exactly what I'd done, and even sent him the first chapter of the answer key so he could see what I was talking about. Note that we hadn't yet turned in a single problem set, so I hadn't had the opportunity to actually cheat. The Prof simply solved the problem by writing the problem sets, himself. And no, I never asked this guy for a LOR, or any favors at all, for that matter.

I don't tell you this because I expect you to ooh and ahh and nominate me for sainthood or something. I tell you this simply so that you'll understand that it is possible to live life without compromise and still do well. I still got into a good med school... and it was with my sense of self intact.

 

[scrubsaresexy]

If anyone is curious, here's what happened:

I emailed my professor and asked him what the exam protocol is, specificially, could we use outside help. He emailed me back and said it was closed book and everyone had taken it in one of the conference rooms, so there was no way for people to cheat. Originally he had told us that we could take in anywhere we wanted; I wonder now if he said that simply to see how many people would cheat. I'm in the process of emailing him back to explain that I had heard someone was planning on cheating and I wanted to make sure that it would really be considered cheating before I reported it.

Another note...I'm not a guy 😀 Just wanted to put that out there because people keep referring to me as one (so pennybridge, it's going to have to be figurative balls). Second, my family has a strong military background (I'm sort of headed in that direction as well), and nothing is more important to me than integrity. This 'friend' of mine isn't a good friend, but is someone that I grew up with, and thats why it was a hard decision. I'm pretty sure that this person has already taken the exam, which is why I was put in such an awkward position.

I guess all's well that ends well, and at least this has given me the opportunity to figure out where I stand on this for the future. It really only took a couple of response to realize that I wouldn't be able to sleep at night without doing something. I guess I'm just that kind of person.

 

[pennybridge]

I don't tell you this because I expect you to ooh and ahh and nominate me for sainthood or something. I tell you this simply so that you'll understand that it is possible to live life without compromise and still do well. I still got into a good med school... and it was with my sense of self intact.

that was actually a pretty badass story. 👍

for better or worse, I lose no sleep knowing people cheat on bio exams.

 

[jochi1543]

Yeah, I agree, if the professor pushed me for information, I would probably tell him who was involved.

But I think since the cheating hasn't occurred yet the individuals involved wouldn't matter. What matters is the professor needs to clarify what the rules are on the final and to possibly prevent the cheating from taking place.
If the professor clarifies that cooperative test taking is not allowed for the final and the group still plans on meeting then the Op should definitely give out the names.

Exactly what I was referring to when I said that you'd be PREVENTING cheating from happening.

And they can't really kick someone out for talking to classmates about how they might cheat on an upcoming exam. I mean, many people would say stuff like that out of simple bravado. And with the prof never having said anything about group work, it's part his fault anyway.

 

[postbacker]

If anyone is curious, here's what happened:

I emailed my professor and asked him what the exam protocol is, specificially, could we use outside help. He emailed me back and said it was closed book and everyone had taken it in one of the conference rooms, so there was no way for people to cheat. Originally he had told us that we could take in anywhere we wanted; I wonder now if he said that simply to see how many people would cheat. I'm in the process of emailing him back to explain that I had heard someone was planning on cheating and I wanted to make sure that it would really be considered cheating before I reported it.

Another note...I'm not a guy 😀 Just wanted to put that out there because people keep referring to me as one (so pennybridge, it's going to have to be figurative balls). Second, my family has a strong military background (I'm sort of headed in that direction as well), and nothing is more important to me than integrity. This 'friend' of mine isn't a good friend, but is someone that I grew up with, and thats why it was a hard decision. I'm pretty sure that this person has already taken the exam, which is why I was put in such an awkward position.

I guess all's well that ends well, and at least this has given me the opportunity to figure out where I stand on this for the future. It really only took a couple of response to realize that I wouldn't be able to sleep at night without doing something. I guess I'm just that kind of person.

Good job. Contacting the prof was the only proper and ethical action to take.

 

[Wanna_B_Scutty]

... And with the prof never having said anything about group work, it's part his fault anyway.

Oh FFS. 🙄

jochi, I liked your original sample e-mail for the most part, but really this statement is absurd. The onus is not upon the Prof to prevent cheating by restating rules that were in both his syllabus and in the OP's school honor code. That suggests that students are so feeble-minded that they cannot discern appropriate conduct for themselves, but must be led about on leashes. Rather, the onus is upon students to make sure that any "irregular" testing conditions that they might devise for themselves are appropriate and sanctioned by the Professor. Does no one believe in personal responsibility, anymore?

 

[postbacker]

Oh FFS. 🙄

jochi, I liked your original sample e-mail for the most part, but really this statement is absurd. The onus is not upon the Prof to prevent cheating by restating rules that were in both his syllabus and in the OP's school honor code. That suggests that students are so feeble-minded that they cannot discern appropriate conduct for themselves, but must be led about on leashes. Rather, the onus is upon students to make sure that any "irregular" testing conditions that they might devise for themselves are appropriate and sanctioned by the Professor. Does no one believe in personal responsibility, anymore?

Agree with Scutty here.

The honor code is the "college" honor code, not the professor's. The prof is obligated to enforce the honor code at all times - it is not up to him to decide when the code is in force or not. And for future reference - if you witness cheating and tell the prof and he shrugs it off, you are obligated to go over his head if necessary to find a proper school official.

For example - suppose a professor gave you a written research paper assignment and said "no need to footnote or attribute your sources." What would you do? (hint: look at your honor code for guidance if you really don't get it...).

Finally, it is NOT the professor's fault on any level for student cheating. Take home exams are common place - and the honor code is in force at all times, and the students are accountable to self report and to report others.

 

[Steve203]

I like cheese

 

[lilnoelle]

I still can't get over how anal some of the people are on this board.

Some of you are in for a shock when you get to the real world.

I don't see how honoring a promise is anal. (the promise being that they signed the honor code)

And although many people in the world are not honorable doesn't mean that a person who is should change. I don't think an honorable person is in for a shock in the real world. Perhaps if they are honorable and naive, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

 

[jochi1543]

Oh FFS. 🙄

jochi, I liked your original sample e-mail for the most part, but really this statement is absurd. The onus is not upon the Prof to prevent cheating by restating rules that were in both his syllabus and in the OP's school honor code. That suggests that students are so feeble-minded that they cannot discern appropriate conduct for themselves, but must be led about on leashes. Rather, the onus is upon students to make sure that any "irregular" testing conditions that they might devise for themselves are appropriate and sanctioned by the Professor. Does no one believe in personal responsibility, anymore?

Nah, I don't think it's absurd, because I've had take-home exams before, and I can recall at least one where group work was explicitly permitted. I think this is more the case with upper level classes though, where a bulk of your work is expected to be produced in cooperation. I can't imagine it happening in Chem 100 or something.

 

[BluePhoenix]

Cheating is cheating, there's no rationalization for it. Regardless of whether or not there's an honor code, or it affects you, or you're friends with them - the honorable thing to do is report it. No one wants to be the one who told and get involved if they can avoid it, however, to maintain the value of your work and work done at your institution, cheaters need to be stopped...otherwise you end up like South Korea, where all of their work is questioned due to the bad decisions of a few.

If they fail, they fail...maybe they needed to work harder or get a tutor, but that doesn't make it ok for them to cheat. Ask the professor for what his rules are for taking the test outside of class. Tell him that some of the students were planning on working together. As it hasn't happened yet, a stern email from the Prof. may prevent them, otherwise at least he'll be on the lookout for cheaters. Finally, most professors have a damn good idea of what grade you're going to get on the final, it vary rarely deviates from the rest of the semester, and I imagine that they would examine any dramatic improvements on a take home exam with a bit of skepticism.

 

[BluePhoenix]

As an aside, I find it kind of disturbing how many premeds here are so apathetic and unconcerned by cheating. Will you be the same way as doctors if you see something? Do you plan to just look the other way rather than reporting incidents? Just because it's not hurting you, it's ok?

Seriously. It's up to us to make our school or workplace an environment where such behavior isn't tolerated. How do you take pride in your institution if you know that kind of thing is going on? I'm not saying you need to become the cheating police but seeing it happen and just ignoring it is unacceptable.

 

[Law2Doc]

I still can't get over how anal some of the people are on this board.

Some of you are in for a shock when you get to the real world.

Some of us are coming back to school from the real world. In the real world when you break the rules they take away your medical license or other horrible consequences. And people won't think twice turning you in. It is most of the youngsters on this thread who are the ones advocating shirking duties.

 

[monday_best]

Cheating is cheating, there's no rationalization for it. Regardless of whether or not there's an honor code, or it affects you, or you're friends with them - the honorable thing to do is report it. No one wants to be the one who told and get involved if they can avoid it, however, to maintain the value of your work and work done at your institution, cheaters need to be stopped...otherwise you end up like South Korea, where all of their work is questioned due to the bad decisions of a few.

If they fail, they fail...maybe they needed to work harder or get a tutor, but that doesn't make it ok for them to cheat. Ask the professor for what his rules are for taking the test outside of class. Tell him that some of the students were planning on working together. As it hasn't happened yet, a stern email from the Prof. may prevent them, otherwise at least he'll be on the lookout for cheaters. Finally, most professors have a damn good idea of what grade you're going to get on the final, it vary rarely deviates from the rest of the semester, and I imagine that they would examine any dramatic improvements on a take home exam with a bit of skepticism.

Excellent example, BluePhoenix.

The South Korean cloning scandal is an excellent example of how damaging cheating can be in the "real world," for those of you who think having integrity is a naive, artifical construct.

Integrity and honorable practice in business builds customer trust and loyalty and *surprise* makes money too. Reputation is everything. People go to mechanics they believe won't scam them. People don't want to buy sneakers from corporations that use child labor.

 

[postbacker]

Some of us are coming back to school from the real world. In the real world when you break the rules they take away your medical license or other horrible consequences. And people won't think twice turning you in. It is most of the youngsters on this thread who are the ones advocating shirking duties.

...but Steve203's mdapp profile says he was/is a middle and high school teacher. I feel bad for the kids in his classes...makes me wonder where this world is headed if parents are entrusting their kids to twisted teachers like him...

 

[Steve203]

I like cheese

 

[pennybridge]

ronald mcdonald