What's a guarantee worth?

[speciald]

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We have an ongoing debate here over which school my daughter will choose for pre-pharm and I'd love some input from actual students. She's been accepted to a number of 0-6 and 2+4 schools and narrowed it down to one public (UB) and two private schools She'd be happy at any of them. I'm concerned that she not end up over her head in debt. She's concerned with getting all the way through in 6 years. Hence the debate...

The private schools would cost $15K per year after financial aid. UB would cost less than $5K per year. So, she'd be loan free at UB for 2-3 years or take $24K in loans for prepharm at the privates. However, the privates are 2+4 schools with strong early assurance guarantees (3.0 gpa and very low PCAT composite requirements). UB's early assurance requires a 3.5 gpa and we've heard from many people that a very high number of their prepharmacy students lose their guarantee in the first two years and are never accepted into pharmacy school. She's a very intelligent, serious, and well organized kid but lives in fear that she won't get accepted later on (afraid of a few courses and the PCAT, I think).

Knowing what you know now, do you think it's worth the extra $20,000 to have that stronger guarantee for pharm school admission? I've proposed a compromise where she start at one of the privates, take the PCAT, and apply for pharmacy school at Buffalo. Thus, she'd preserve her better guaranteed option, but may end up at a lower cost (and probably better) program. What do you think?

Any suggestions gratefully appreciated!

 

[cdhoward]

IMHO it's not worth the extra $20K. Make sure she gets some pharmacy experience. She shouldn't worry about the 6 year requirement. Check with the school to see if you MUST complete the prereqs in 2 years. Will they allow 3 years? I don't know. She'll be fine so long as she maintains a high gpa and does well on the pcat. I'd go the cheaper route and if she gets in there great. If not, then apply elsewhere.

 

[speciald]

Yes, all 3 schools require prereqs be complete in 2 years to keep guarantee. She'll only be exempt from taking 3 liberal arts electives which she has CC/AP credit for already.

 

[itsblue2]

i think its worth it, education is always worth it. and 20K isnt bad compared to what ill be paying on when im done.

 

[pharmplz11]

3.5 GPA is no slouch GPA but it isn't impossible by any means. For 20K+ in loans over the course of 2 years I would definitely just keep the 3.5. I know how she feels wanting reassurance and all but really, if she's dedicated to the program, which is hard at times, maintaining a 3.5 is doable. Make sure she studies an hour per class and gives herself at least two sleep cycles to process information before a test. You have to really enjoy this stuff to put in that much effort. Organic Chem, Physics, General Chem, they are all buggers of classes and if you don't enjoy science you are going to rip your hair out. Make sure it's the right profession for her and if it is, she'll do fine.

Also, take the Kaplan PCAT Prep course if she won't have all her sciences at the time of the test and do everything they recommend. The Kaplan PCAT book gives you the basic info you need but the class gives you the tips and tricks to do even better. It's close to $1,000 but, for me, it was a brilliant investment.

 

[Jammerdez1]

Personally, I'd go with the lower cost school for 2 years. If, for some reason she isn't guaranteed admission at the end of the 2 years, have her apply to a bunch of other schools just as she would if she hadn't entered the 2-4/0-6 program. The other thing to consider is that ideas, passions, and motivations change after high school. There's no guarantee that she'll truly want to pursue pharmacy once she sees other things that might peak her interest. I would say that she go with the cheaper option, as it seems to hedge the most bets. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Aznfarmerboi]

We have an ongoing debate here over which school my daughter will choose for pre-pharm and I'd love some input from actual students. She's been accepted to a number of 0-6 and 2+4 schools and narrowed it down to one public (UB) and two private schools She'd be happy at any of them. I'm concerned that she not end up over her head in debt. She's concerned with getting all the way through in 6 years. Hence the debate...

The private schools would cost $15K per year after financial aid. UB would cost less than $5K per year. So, she'd be loan free at UB for 2-3 years or take $24K in loans for prepharm at the privates. However, the privates are 2+4 schools with strong early assurance guarantees (3.0 gpa and very low PCAT composite requirements). UB's early assurance requires a 3.5 gpa and we've heard from many people that a very high number of their prepharmacy students lose their guarantee in the first two years and are never accepted into pharmacy school. She's a very intelligent, serious, and well organized kid but lives in fear that she won't get accepted later on (afraid of a few courses and the PCAT, I think).

Knowing what you know now, do you think it's worth the extra $20,000 to have that stronger guarantee for pharm school admission? I've proposed a compromise where she start at one of the privates, take the PCAT, and apply for pharmacy school at Buffalo. Thus, she'd preserve her better guaranteed option, but may end up at a lower cost (and probably better) program. What do you think?

Any suggestions gratefully appreciated!

Despite what other people say here, go for the 0-6 program.

After financial aid and scholarships, the cost of difference should be minimal over the long run. Have you factor in the expenses of living at UB? Plus, there is no guarantee that she would get a 3.5 gpa in UB and still stay in the program. No matter how mature a kid is, there is always a lot of distractions.

 

[bklyngirl]

It would be best for you to help her decide based on her traits, personality and interests (put the money out of your mind.)
Has pharmacy been a long term interest for her, or has she had any exposure to the field? If not, UB would probably be the best choice. Most students enter college unsure of their career path, and some change their career plans many times before they declare their major (she would have the opportunity to do this at UB.)
However, if she is strongly determined to enter pharmacy, and has been exposed in some way which has helped her make that decision, then it may be better to let her attend a school that guarantees her entry into the professional phase (it's worth the extra 20g.) I say this because she should be allowed to start her freshman year with as little stress as possible. Many freshman studying away from home slack off slightly on grades, due to transitioning and coping independently. I can see that she doesn't want the PCAT performance pressures at this time - and I don't blame her. She just got over the college admissions process (SAT's, GPA's, teacher recs) and to think she has to go through this stressful situation again within two more years is probably giving her a massive headache!!!
Talk it over with her a bit more before you make the final decision, but keep it relaxed and she may be willing to open up a bit more.
Good luck!

 

[speciald]

Thanks for the advice. Yes, she's sure she wants to try pharmacy. We have several pharmacists in the family, and alot of other healthcare peeps as well. She's grown up seeing what life & work is like for a physician, nurse, etc. She spent 2 months last summer helping/shadowing in local hospital pharmacy. Only did one day in retail though. She's thinking she'd want to do a specialized residency after her PharmD and is leaning toward pediatrics, though anything could change between now and then.

The costs/loans after FA and scholarships (and my help) do include housing. It will definitely be her choice, but she does look to me for input as well. I guess I'm thinking that if she's heavily in debt she may not be able to do a residency if she wants to later. Or take time off to bum around/have a child/or whatever.🙂

 

[xiphoid2010]

Thanks for the advice. Yes, she's sure she wants to try pharmacy. We have several pharmacists in the family, and alot of other healthcare peeps as well. She's grown up seeing what life & work is like for a physician, nurse, etc. She spent 2 months last summer helping/shadowing in local hospital pharmacy. Only did one day in retail though. She's thinking she'd want to do a specialized residency after her PharmD and is leaning toward pediatrics, though anything could change between now and then.

The costs/loans after FA and scholarships (and my help) do include housing. It will definitely be her choice, but she does look to me for input as well. I guess I'm thinking that if she's heavily in debt she may not be able to do a residency if she wants to later. Or take time off to bum around/have a child/or whatever.🙂

I wouldn't spend the $20K. As a pharmacy student, I don't want to sound like a jerk, but if she has a hard time maintaining 3.5 GPA in pre-pharm, then she probably not serious enough about going to pharmacy school. Undergrad is not very hard for anyone with a solid background, not remotely comparable to pharmacy school curriculum.

If anything, forcing her to maintain a 3.5 GPA is a good way to make sure she really wants to go Pharm.D and also to develop the study habits and self discipline that she'll need.

Besides, she'll need those $20k for pharmacy school tuition, it's going up by crazy amount every year.

 

[bklyngirl]

I wouldn't spend the $20K. As a pharmacy student, I don't want to sound like a jerk, but if she has a hard time maintaining 3.5 GPA in pre-pharm, then she probably not serious enough about going to pharmacy school. Undergrad is not very hard for anyone with a solid background, not remotely comparable to pharmacy school curriculum.

If anything, forcing her to maintain a 3.5 GPA is a good way to make sure she really wants to go Pharm.D and also to develop the study habits and self discipline that she'll need.

Besides, she'll need those $20k for pharmacy school tuition, it's going up by crazy amount every year.

Easy to say when you're on the "pharmD" side of the fence, instead of the "pre-pharm" (hoping for an admission) side.

There are many students on this forum who have been turned down from their first choice schools with GPA's around 3.5 and high PCAT's. A few don't get even one acceptance and need to reapply the following year. Pharmacy school admission is getting more and more competitive each year, and with the economy the way it is right now (with more older applicants making career changes) it will probably get more competitive over the years.
She sounds like a very sensible and hard working girl, so I feel that she's earned the trust to make the choice that she feels is right for her. Feeling pressured from the start can sometimes harm academic performance. She should be able to enjoy her college years, and establish a healthy balance with her academic and social life. She has plenty of time in her adult years to be pressured - why rush it!

 

[SHC1984]

Go to the cheapest school. 3.5 GPA is not hard to keep unless you are very lazy.

 

[wolfpackhal]

The only real guarantee to getting into pharmacy school is doing well academically, especially on the prereqs, and being a well-rounded applicant as far as recommendations, PCAT, work/volunteer experience, etc are concerned. I would not chose a school simply because they guarantee you a spot if you can maintain a certain PCAT and GPA in your first two years. Chances are, if she can earn whatever GPA/PCAT they require for the guarnetee then she can get into most any pharmacy school she wants to go to. Go to the cheaper school and do well, then she can either take their guaranteed offer or she can apply to her other top pharmacy school choices.

 

[cdpiano27]

Well, actually I have a very different view of what was written here. I think she should go to the "CHEAPEST" guaranteed program for 2 years, and then apply to Buffalo. The prepharm classes at Buffalo I think would be graded more stringently than most other schools, and it could be very, very difficult just to get a 3.5. Why? Because everyone wants to go to the pharmacy program out of the undergrad at Buffalo. There are X people for only Y spots. So then the professors will grade the class accordingly, so that only X people will get through. If she is at the guaranteed program, she can probably put the same effort forth as what would earn her a 3.5 at Buffalo, could earn her a 3.9 at say, St. Louis University. What are the other two 0-6 programs that she got accepted to? I think that information could help me make a decision.
It is like someone getting a 3.5 at say, MIT, versus the average state school. a 3.5 at MIT is going to 5 times more difficult than a 3.5 at Umass-Boston. For example, a 3.5 at Georgia Tech is very hard to get for example, the person could go to UGA in the same major, and with that same effort earn 4.0.

I agree with you. I think spend the first two years in the guaranteed program, and THEN apply to Buffalo, or another cheaper pharmacy school.

There was someone else on this board, an international student from China, who had the same situation. I told her to go to Albany instead of Buffalo. People complain about Albany, but she followed my advice, went there, and is doing extremely well, but she was earning just over 3.5 GPA a semester. This 3.5 was considered very good according to the way they grade the classes. And she was near the top of her class, in Physics, and she got to be a teaching assistant in that class I think. In fact, she got into the accelerated there, after the two years of prepharm at Albany.

 

[pharmplz11]

Despite what other people say here, go for the 0-6 program.

After financial aid and scholarships, the cost of difference should be minimal over the long run. Have you factor in the expenses of living at UB? Plus, there is no guarantee that she would get a 3.5 gpa in UB and still stay in the program. No matter how mature a kid is, there is always a lot of distractions.

I think that is the point. She may very well have a change of heart and then where is she at? 20k in debt that's where. I'm telling you keeping a 3.5 will prove to her that this is indeed what she wants. If she can't hack or doesn't like the material, then she learns that at the same time...for 20-30k less.

 

[pharmplz11]

I wouldn't spend the $20K. As a pharmacy student, I don't want to sound like a jerk, but if she has a hard time maintaining 3.5 GPA in pre-pharm, then she probably not serious enough about going to pharmacy school. Undergrad is not very hard for anyone with a solid background, not remotely comparable to pharmacy school curriculum.

If anything, forcing her to maintain a 3.5 GPA is a good way to make sure she really wants to go Pharm.D and also to develop the study habits and self discipline that she'll need.

Besides, she'll need those $20k for pharmacy school tuition, it's going up by crazy amount every year.

Bingo. Must have skipped over this one when commented.

 

[speciald]

CDpiano - The privates are Wilkes and Albany. She currently favors Wilkes - more majors, more of a college feel, people are very friendly, faculty and dean have been informative in her interactions with them, and she got a better scholarship there. Albany is a close second because it's a much smaller and less diverse school so, if pharmacy is not her calling, she'd almost certainly have to transfer. It may well come down to whoever requires less debt!

The thing with UB is that they require Microbiology and Calculus I & II in their prerequisites. The privates do not require Calc II and Wilkes doesn't require micro. She's generally an A student (3.95 HS gpa), but math is not her strongpoint. She's taking precalc this year. Likes organic chem better than gen chem, but doesn't know about microbio. We've talked with a few students who were honors students, in high school and at UB, who missed the gpa cutoff in Buffalo's prepharm by tenths! Since the required gpa's are only calculated on the 10-13 math/science prerequisites, she's concerned that one or two B's could tank her guarantee.

As bklyngirl noted, she's tired of doing all these apps, tests, interviews, LOR's, etc. and wants to avoid going through it all again in two years! Applying to one school instate, like UB, would be okay.

Pharmplz, you hit my concerns on the head! I'm the "plan B" person - could see her being successful at a number of different careers, many don't have high starting salaries, and I want her to be able to change majors if desired without the dark cloud of debt to consider.

This board is terrific...thank you!

 

[bklyngirl]

CDpiano - The privates are Wilkes and Albany. She currently favors Wilkes - more majors, more of a college feel, people are very friendly, faculty and dean have been informative in her interactions with them, and she got a better scholarship there. Albany is a close second because it's a much smaller and less diverse school so, if pharmacy is not her calling, she'd almost certainly have to transfer. It may well come down to whoever requires less debt!

The thing with UB is that they require Microbiology and Calculus I & II in their prerequisites. The privates do not require Calc II and Wilkes doesn't require micro. She's generally an A student (3.95 HS gpa), but math is not her strongpoint. She's taking precalc this year. Likes organic chem better than gen chem, but doesn't know about microbio. We've talked with a few students who were honors students, in high school and at UB, who missed the gpa cutoff in Buffalo's prepharm by tenths! Since the required gpa's are only calculated on the 10-13 math/science prerequisites, she's concerned that one or two B's could tank her guarantee.

As bklyngirl noted, she's tired of doing all these apps, tests, interviews, LOR's, etc. and wants to avoid going through it all again in two years! Applying to one school instate, like UB, would be okay.

Pharmplz, you hit my concerns on the head! I'm the "plan B" person - could see her being successful at a number of different careers, many don't have high starting salaries, and I want her to be able to change majors if desired without the dark cloud of debt to consider.

This board is terrific...thank you!

I've heard so many great things about Wilkes. As a matter of fact, I applied there this year and was not accepted, due to limited seats and high number of transfer applications. The school is small, extremely supportive to students and has very few pre-pharm dropouts (some years there are none.) She would also be able to have the college life experience, and the option to change majors if she decides later on.
I don't think she'd have those options at Albany, or the same supportive environment Wilkes has to offer. Albany has transfer seats available each year due to their attrition rate. If you search old forums on this site, you'll see that Albany is not a favorable school and has many bad reviews from current/past students. Many mention that Albany over-enrolls as they expect some to fail out (not a good sign.)

Can your daughter take Cal 2 and Microbiology (while a student at Wilkes)at a community college over the summer before her college sophomore year, and then she would still be eligible to apply to UB if she decides to apply as a transfer?

 

[etspinner]

One or two B's won't tank her GPA. To keep her GPA above 3.5, she just needs more A's than B's. For some reason when I came into college and thought a 3.5 requirement to stay in the honors program was tough, having it put that way really put it into perspective. Might seem dumb but that may help in case there was any misconceptions about how attainable a 3.5 is, especially to a A-student.

 

[bklyngirl]

CDpiano - The privates are Wilkes and Albany. She currently favors Wilkes - more majors, more of a college feel, people are very friendly, faculty and dean have been informative in her interactions with them, and she got a better scholarship there. Albany is a close second because it's a much smaller and less diverse school so, if pharmacy is not her calling, she'd almost certainly have to transfer. It may well come down to whoever requires less debt!

The thing with UB is that they require Microbiology and Calculus I & II in their prerequisites. The privates do not require Calc II and Wilkes doesn't require micro. She's generally an A student (3.95 HS gpa), but math is not her strongpoint. She's taking precalc this year. Likes organic chem better than gen chem, but doesn't know about microbio. We've talked with a few students who were honors students, in high school and at UB, who missed the gpa cutoff in Buffalo's prepharm by tenths! Since the required gpa's are only calculated on the 10-13 math/science prerequisites, she's concerned that one or two B's could tank her guarantee.

As bklyngirl noted, she's tired of doing all these apps, tests, interviews, LOR's, etc. and wants to avoid going through it all again in two years! Applying to one school instate, like UB, would be okay.

Pharmplz, you hit my concerns on the head! I'm the "plan B" person - could see her being successful at a number of different careers, many don't have high starting salaries, and I want her to be able to change majors if desired without the dark cloud of debt to consider.

This board is terrific...thank you!

Now that I think of it...
Are you sure UB requires Microbiology as a prerequisite? I applied this year without having it. However, they do require 2 semesters of Physics, whereas Wilkes only has a one semester requirement.

 

[speciald]

You know, we're a little confused now about microbio too. It's listed as one of the prereq courses required for the early assurance students but not as one for transfers. I also see that they require Physics II for transfers, but not for early assurance students. I know they changed the early assurance program in the past year or two, not sure about the transfer prereqs. We're going to UB in 2 weeks so I'll be sure to ask.

It does look like she'd have to take a few extra or summer classes to meet UB's req's if she starts at ACP or Wilkes. If offered, maybe she could do them there though since she won't have as many required core electives like English and Econ to take.

We've decided to do one more round of visits for accepted student days and see how she really likes each of them. She's been very disciplined about not letting herself fall in love with any one school pending acceptance and financial offers. Maybe it's time to see what the heart says...

 

[alenadoma]

UB is beginning to change its prerequisites, and will be basically turning into a 3+4 instead of a 2+4. In addition to Micro, they also want to add Anatomy and (possibly) Physiology.
Another fact to consider is that UB requires it's early assurance candidates to take classes that are more advanced. For example -- Calculus 141 and 142 instead of 121 and 122. I personally took 121 and 122 (I was not early assurance), and found those difficult enough. Other people can share their experiences, but from what I have heard, 141 and 142 are no where near easy. I know you said your daughter has a high GPA in high school, so she will have to make sure she can maintain those study habits on her own.
From personal experience, it is not easy to do well at UB. You are basically left on your own to understand the material, and by no means is the material intuitive. Plenty of people do well and I don't mean to scare you or your daughter, I am just sharing the things that I wish I would have known before going to UB. As long as she can make a very quick adjustment from high school to college she will be fine. She has to be prepared for that adjustment, because maintaining a 3.5 in all of those classes is no easy task.
I can't speak for the private schools, I have never attended a private university..but if I had to do it again, I might reconsider UB.
Good luck to your daughter with whichever decision your family makes 🙂

 

[cdpiano27]

I would suggest your daughter to go to Wilkes. Sounds like a good place to start and get off on the right foot. Good scholarship, nice environment, and not as focused on pharmacy as Albany

That is what I think she should do. She can apply to UB after the two years.

 

[speciald]

Wilkes is still a strong contendor, and probably her favorite. She's accepted but still waitlisted for a guaranteed seat and not likely to hear until after May 1st. We're removing ACP from the list due to surprisingly bad financial aid. MCPHS actually had a much better offer and UB's was outstanding. We did put in a deposit at UB to make sure she would get a room and have a spot. She's going to accepted student day this weekend and will have to decide whether to reconsider MCPHS after that.

Cd, do you have the same feeling about MCPHS?

 

[cdpiano27]

You are in luck asking me about MCPHS. Boston campus, correct? My aunt went to MCPHS-Boston for her Bachelors in Pharmacy (no doctorate at the time!) from 1979-1984 (class of 1984). My grandmother has the alumni book from 1985 with her name in it! Yes, there were a lot of drop-outs in that program. She almost failed organic II twice, and the second time she would have been cut from the program, but she squeaked by the second time with a C! I think that the second time she took organic II, my grandfather called the professor and even begged him to pass her! She actually did pass that and then had a very difficult rotation at Brigham and Women's Hospital. She always talks about those two moments being the most difficult time of her pharmacy career. Plus, the school is very expensive. I think it is a good school, but she thought there was a lot of pressure at the time. But I think you could get a very solid education from there.

Funny thing is that my aunt also was offered admission at Buffalo during that time! But she chose MCPHS instead. This is way back in 1979! I just believe that she visited the school and liked the environment of Boston, and the numerous hospitals more. It was her personal choice after visits I feel. Did your daughter visit MCPHS? I have been to that area in Boston right around the school so many times. I like the area very much personally.

How much would it cost out of pocket for your daughter to go to MCPHS? I think that should be a big factor.

I believe that there is a high drop-out rate at MCPHS, but maybe not quite as high as Albany.

I think that if she can study well, I think it is personally easier just "surviving" a program rather than having to get a 3.5 with a lot of competition. I know that 3.5 at MIT (well it is 4.5 since they use a 5 point system) is very difficult to get. 3.5 is all relative to the school where it comes from.

I think Buffalo and MCPHS are both great programs. Buffalo is more research oriented, and the PhD program (not PharmD) in pharmaceutical sciences has probably one of the best pharmacokinetics research. But I guess that does not matter at this time.

Well, this is tough decision. Where is your daughter leaning towards going, if Wilkes does not come through?

 

[speciald]

Fixed costs (tuition/RB/fees) at MCPHS would run about $17K per year out of pocket/loans at current rates. Buffalo would be $4K. She could probably get a BS from UB for the same cost as a year at MCPHS if she did change her mind or lose the guarantee at UB and have to reapply. Using current rates and awards, her total fixed cost for a 6-year PharmD at UB would be under $75K, MCPHS would be $125K.

MCPHS has one of the few true 0-6 programs left. No PCAT, maintain a 2.7, automatic entry. She hasn't visited yet due to schedule at the hospital pharmacy, (and it was her "safety" school, well above their average for stats). She's been to Boston several times and loves it there. But sounds like MCPHS doesn't have enough housing so she could have to rent an apartment after her first year - not sure the $8800 dorm price would cover much of an apartment in that area! And the rotations they offer seem to be all over the place, not necessarily at the great hospitals in that area. I think their attrition rate is predictable given the age and lower than average stats for their accepted students.

Looking at the curriculums, UB seems to be a better choice for the long term. She is thinking that she would like to do a residency and specialize later on, probably in pediatrics, so would like to be well prepared to compete for a slot. Transferring from MCPHS to UB after two years is an idea but would be difficult, as it doesn't look like the pre-req's align.

She seems to be leaning toward UB right now. With such great FA, she wouldn't have to work but could do more volunteering and could afford to stay out there during the summer to take a few classes to offload her schedule (which should increase the probability of staying over 3.5, right?). With 10 science and 3 math classes, plus the usual gen ed courses and PCAT, to complete in 4 semesters it might be the smart thing to do! It does seem like UB has upped the pre-reqs so that it will be very challenging to complete on time and with the required scores.

 

[cdpiano27]

MCPHS lowered the requirement to stay in the program. When my aunt was there in 1979-1984, the minimum GPA was 3.0. Also, at the time, the rotations were at the top hospitals, but as a result, they were graded very rigorously, and many people did not pass them at the time. Maybe the rotations are easier to pass now? I don't know.

Yes, very tough decision. UB is a great school, and would be better to go to as to be competitive for a residency. But it sounds like it is very challenging AND very competitive to meet their standards.

An apartment in Boston IS very expensive unless she rents and apartment in the suburbs 20 miles away. In towns near the NH border, such as Lowell, there is a DRAMATIC difference in rents for sure!! She could probably get something relatively cheaper than the $8800 dorm if she found apartment in Lowell. Then she could take the commuter rail in from Lowell to the school. Commuter rail goes to South Station from Lowell and then she takes the T on the green line to MCPHS. Just a thought. I don't mind 20 miles as I attended a community college for one year (about 8 years ago) and took classes at two different campuses 16 miles apart in a pretty traffic congested area of South Florida. The traffic there is probably the same as Boston, so it is doable I think. she could also stay at school library study most of her time there, and go back at night.

However, UB IS the best well-known established school out of all of those. However, it will be a rat race to not lose the guarantee!!

If she does go to UB, I would recommend splitting some of the courses up during the summer. If she does not spend a lot of time learning the detail, she will certainly not get the grade cut-off. The exams, I am sure, will test every fine detail over there, to separate who gets in and who does not. She is better staying up there for all summers and splitting the prerequisite sciences classes out as much as is allowed.

 

[tomk]

i dont know if its been said, but nothings guaranteed. your daughters acceptance into pharmacy school isn't, nor is the fact that she will want to be a pharmacist after 4 years of undergrad (you sound pretty sure that she wants to be one, but at 18-22 years of age you never know what she will do).

college is one of the first major decisions a person should be able to make on their own. While it is a very important decision, it's a decision she should make herself. You should let her decide as an act of faith and acknowledgement that she is now an adult. I say let your daughter choose where she wants to go, whether you agree or disagree. If you trust her, she'll make the right decision for herself. If you need to choose for her, it means you think she's stupid/immature and can't decide what is best for herself. Let her walk all those campus's, take a tour and make a decision. She'll find the right one based off of her needs.

 

[ttopping]

I'm actually a student at UB and am now a P2 in the pharmacy program. I also got in through early assurance. I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned it but with early assurance at UB there is no need to take the PCAT. They might encourage it just incase math/science drops below 3.5 and you need to apply normally but if you make the cut you don't need it.

Although it certainly wasn't easy, and I did have to put the effort in, there was nothing impossible about it. I had a rude awakening in the transition from highschool to college and ended up with a C in my evolutionary bio class. That being said it opened my eyes to the work I needed to put into it, I changed up my study habits, and pulled off the 3.5.

As for the difficulty of the classes, it honestly had to do with the professor I chose. I made my schedule as soon as I could register and I did my research about professors. Not that some are necessarily easier, but much better in terms of teaching the material, which in the end does make it easier I suppose. It does make all the difference. My roommate who is at my level of academics ended up with a D in cell biology while I ended up with an A- simply due to the methods of our teachers. His made it unnecessarily difficult for the level we were taking, while mine made sure we had a chance to do well. I loved calc II because of my teacher (Busch) and did extremely well. It's all about the effort she wants to put in (and from the way it sounds, she won't have a motivation issue).

The new prereqs such as micro might be difficult simply because of how much there is going on freshman/sophmore year but in general it's just alot of memorization. We had to take it P1 year anyway and it wasn't too difficult.

I know that was a lot to read but I'm helping out with open house this weekend and I know you said you would be there. If you have any questions feel free to approach me personally, I would be more than happy to talk about my experience getting into the program, and the program in general. Good luck and see you saturday!

-Taylor

 

[alenadoma]

I'm actually a student at UB and am now a P2 in the pharmacy program. I also got in through early assurance. I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned it but with early assurance at UB there is no need to take the PCAT. They might encourage it just incase math/science drops below 3.5 and you need to apply normally but if you make the cut you don't need it.

Although it certainly wasn't easy, and I did have to put the effort in, there was nothing impossible about it. I had a rude awakening in the transition from highschool to college and ended up with a C in my evolutionary bio class. That being said it opened my eyes to the work I needed to put into it, I changed up my study habits, and pulled off the 3.5.

As for the difficulty of the classes, it honestly had to do with the professor I chose. I made my schedule as soon as I could register and I did my research about professors. Not that some are necessarily easier, but much better in terms of teaching the material, which in the end does make it easier I suppose. It does make all the difference. My roommate who is at my level of academics ended up with a D in cell biology while I ended up with an A- simply due to the methods of our teachers. His made it unnecessarily difficult for the level we were taking, while mine made sure we had a chance to do well. I loved calc II because of my teacher (Busch) and did extremely well. It's all about the effort she wants to put in (and from the way it sounds, she won't have a motivation issue).

The new prereqs such as micro might be difficult simply because of how much there is going on freshman/sophmore year but in general it's just alot of memorization. We had to take it P1 year anyway and it wasn't too difficult.

I know that was a lot to read but I'm helping out with open house this weekend and I know you said you would be there. If you have any questions feel free to approach me personally, I would be more than happy to talk about my experience getting into the program, and the program in general. Good luck and see you saturday!

-Taylor

I couldn't agree with your post more. It is very, very important to research who your professors are going to be.
For Calc I, I had a professor who was soo difficult. He made our lives living hell and I did not do well in the class at all. For Calc II, I also had Busch and he was amazing. I got an A in that class after struggling enormously with Calc I.
If she decides on UB make sure she researches her professors.
ratemyprofessor.com is a great webiste, I used it a lot during my undergrad career at UB. Share that site with her, even if she decides on a different school.

 

[ttopping]

I couldn't agree with your post more. It is very, very important to research who your professors are going to be.
For Calc I, I had a professor who was soo difficult. He made our lives living hell and I did not do well in the class at all. For Calc II, I also had Busch and he was amazing. I got an A in that class after struggling enormously with Calc I.
If she decides on UB make sure she researches her professors.
ratemyprofessor.com is a great webiste, I used it a lot during my undergrad career at UB. Share that site with her, even if she decides on a different school.

Yes I forgot to mention the site but ratemyprofessor.com is great once you sort through the people who hate on everyone. That's what I used in undergrad.

Also, alenadoma, you said you have an interview this Friday right? I'll actually be giving tours to the candidates so I'll probably see you then. Good luck!

- Taylor

 

[speciald]

Thanks for the help - she reads the posts, I just type them so she can move on to school, work, etc. Definitely not my decision on where she goes, and she knows she's got my full faith and confidence! It's fine with me if she wants to switch majors or become a dog-catcher, my biggest concern is that she not end up with more debt than income!

She's has spent some time on ratemyprofessor looking at the UB faculty for many of the courses she'll need. Noticed there was a definite preference for some profs and some to avoid at all costs. Another student there told her that your advisor assigns all of your classes for the first semester and you can't request a particular section/professor. Then you're on your own after that. Is that how you remember it?

Did you do any summer classes? Not sure how the summer sessions work at UB, although we're close enough to SU, Colgate, Hamilton, and SUNY-IT that she might be able to find courses closer to home.

We'll look for you at open house, Taylor. My daughter's name is Gabbie.

 

[ttopping]

Thanks for the help - she reads the posts, I just type them so she can move on to school, work, etc. Definitely not my decision on where she goes, and she knows she's got my full faith and confidence! It's fine with me if she wants to switch majors or become a dog-catcher, my biggest concern is that she not end up with more debt than income!

She's has spent some time on ratemyprofessor looking at the UB faculty for many of the courses she'll need. Noticed there was a definite preference for some profs and some to avoid at all costs. Another student there told her that your advisor assigns all of your classes for the first semester and you can't request a particular section/professor. Then you're on your own after that. Is that how you remember it?

Did you do any summer classes? Not sure how the summer sessions work at UB, although we're close enough to SU, Colgate, Hamilton, and SUNY-IT that she might be able to find courses closer to home.

We'll look for you at open house, Taylor. My daughter's name is Gabbie.

I honestly don't remember if I was able to choose my first semester, I'll have to check although I think you are right. After that initial semester it would be up to Gabbie (for the most part, depending on how quick she's able to register).

I never took summer courses because I liked the break, but if that's something she's willing to do it would definitely lighten the load during the year. This summer I will be taking world civ 1 and 2 to get gen eds out of the way at ECC. I skipped out on those my freshman year so I could focus on my math/science courses for early assurance, and I highly recommend doing so. Although I have to make them up now, I wasn't writing essays when I had to study bio. That was how I looked at it at least.

Of course you just want whats best, and it sounds like whatever major she ends up with she'll do just fine. It's great you're taking such an interest as a parent, it really helps when decisions get tough to have someones support.

See you both saturday!

-Taylor

 

[Praziquantel86]

She's has spent some time on ratemyprofessor looking at the UB faculty for many of the courses she'll need. Noticed there was a definite preference for some profs and some to avoid at all costs. Another student there told her that your advisor assigns all of your classes for the first semester and you can't request a particular section/professor. Then you're on your own after that. Is that how you remember it?

You are given a block schedule for your first semester, but that doesn't prevent you from switching sections around. The block is just given to help avoid the stress of trying to figue out which classes to take and when.

That being said, it was kind of nice to have that done for me. Many other pre-pharms are assigned to the same blocks, so you end up spending a lot of time with the same people. Having friends who are in the same situation as you is very nice when things get stressful.

I'll also be helping out on Saturday, I'm looking forward to seeing you!

 

[Carboxide]

A better website is pickaprof.com, in my opinion. It actually gives a histogram of how many As, Bs, Cs, etc each professor gives out for each course. They contact the school and find this out. To me that's a much better estimate of how difficult the prof is than ratemyprof, because on that site it just depends on who cares enough to log on and post.

 

[rphfan2009]

We have an ongoing debate here over which school my daughter will choose for pre-pharm and I'd love some input from actual students. She's been accepted to a number of 0-6 and 2+4 schools and narrowed it down to one public (UB) and two private schools She'd be happy at any of them. I'm concerned that she not end up over her head in debt. She's concerned with getting all the way through in 6 years. Hence the debate...

The private schools would cost $15K per year after financial aid. UB would cost less than $5K per year. So, she'd be loan free at UB for 2-3 years or take $24K in loans for prepharm at the privates. However, the privates are 2+4 schools with strong early assurance guarantees (3.0 gpa and very low PCAT composite requirements). UB's early assurance requires a 3.5 gpa and we've heard from many people that a very high number of their prepharmacy students lose their guarantee in the first two years and are never accepted into pharmacy school. She's a very intelligent, serious, and well organized kid but lives in fear that she won't get accepted later on (afraid of a few courses and the PCAT, I think).

Knowing what you know now, do you think it's worth the extra $20,000 to have that stronger guarantee for pharm school admission? I've proposed a compromise where she start at one of the privates, take the PCAT, and apply for pharmacy school at Buffalo. Thus, she'd preserve her better guaranteed option, but may end up at a lower cost (and probably better) program. What do you think?

Any suggestions gratefully appreciated!

Any way you slice it, she will be okay financially in the end and will be able to pay her student loan debt (if she takes them out). Good Luck!

 

[speciald]

Thanks, carboxide, she'll definitely look at that site too! Praz or tt, do you know when they actually get to talk to a prepharm advisor? She has some credits already, electives/gen ed type, from a CC and AP was wondering if that will impact her freshman schedule. She wanted to take Calc I in fall, as she's in precalc now, but after reading your comments doesn't want to get stuck with the difficult to understand guy (hints or PM as to who this is would be appreciated!). Nice to know there will be pharmacy students on Saturday to interact with. We were thinking of doing a South campus tour too just to get a feel for the whole school - is that where most of your classes are now?

Cd, we've actually been to Lowell many times for her competitions and didn't realize it was so easy to use public transport from there to Boston! May use this option when we visit, as I really don't care for driving in unfamiliar cities!

Any MCPHS Boston students who can weigh in on the housing and rotations there?

 

[Praziquantel86]

I'm not sure who the hard to understand Calc professor is, they tend to change around from year to year. If Javor or Busch are still teaching the class, I'd recommend either one of them. Both are excellent teachers and really know how to make you understand the material (plus they're fair graders, which is nice to have).

She should be able to speak with the pre-pharm advisor at some point on Saturday, her name is Cindy Konovitz. She's one of the most helpful people you'll ever meet around here, get to know her well.

Taking a tour of the South campus wouldn't be a bad idea at this point. If your daughter does come to pharmacy school here, our new building will be opening down there during her tenure. I didn't have any classes down there during the pre-pharm yearsm so I wouldn't worry about that.

 

[ttopping]

Sorry we didn't get to meet with you today. There were so many people in the tours and it got pretty hectic. Hope you enjoyed yourselves. If you have any other questions feel free to pm me. Good luck with everything!

 

[speciald]

We had a great day at UB! I was amazed at how well they handled such a large crowd and we met some very interesting people. Had great tour guides as well (ours was a P1, but had also gone through early assurance and was very good at giving the inside story to the kids). We were unexpectedly impressed with the whole experience - don't mean that in a snobbish way, but we were treated in a very friendly, personal way by everyone we encountered from the Asst Dean to the bus driver! Didn't really expect that and also didn't know undergrads were encouraged to do reasearch,etc.

I think she still feels a bit more comfortable at a slightly smaller school like Wilkes, but she's realizing that UB has alot more to offer her than the other schools and I'm pretty sure she'll take on the challenge.

Thanks so very much for your insights!

 

[ttopping]

I'm glad you guys enjoyed your visit! That's one of the things I loved about UBs pharmacy program and still do, everyone is so friendly and is willing to help out. I personally love talking with people who have questions about the school because I like sharing my experiences. It's hard to get the one on one conversations with such a large group but we make due.

Coming to a big school can be slightly intimidating for sure but i had a pretty close group of friends, and then once I got into the program it gets a lot smaller. A big school like UB has so many resources to offer which is another thing I love. Libraries everywhere, food everywhere, so many clubs and activities to get involved in.

The research they were mentioning today is an interesting point to bring up. We definitely are one of the top research facilities in the country but I've never really felt the push for it personally. If that's something she's interested in there wouldn't be a better place, but not a lot of people go that route just because it's pretty intense. Probably about 5 people each year max choose the research track. In class the main focus is more clinical work I'd say. A majority of people honestly come out of school and go in to community settings (retail) but it's all about where you think the best fit is. I'm looking more for a clinical/hospital route myself.

Again, glad you enjoyed your visit to UB and good luck with all the decisions!