whats harder...step 1/step 2, the bar exam, or the cpa exam

[abcxyz0123]

random question, i am really just curious. i know that these are completely different exams testing completely different kinds of knowledge, but i still really want to know.

feel free to make fun of me if you think this question is ******ed.

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[OrthoFixation]

I believe getting a valid opinion of the relative difficulty is impossible. It depends on how much you like the subject matter, whether or not your priority is learning (not me in ugrad), etc.

One you left out is the PE (Professional Engineer exam). Pretty tough. I would also add that the CPA exam is in blocks (four?) and you do not have to retake the ones you passed previously. Not the case with PE. I'm not sure about the Bar. I think it is all or none too.

 

[edmadison]

IMHO, the bar exam was harder STEP 1.

Ed

 

[BatmanMD]

I can only compare b/w step 1 and step 2.
So, I think that step 1 was harder, it was just really boring crap that is useless and hard to study for.

Step 2 was longer, but I felt more relevent and wasn't as painful.

But, ~90% of med students pass step 1 and step 2 the first time around.
The Bar exam fails MANY students from what I hear, hopefully someone else knows the numbers, so that may be the hardest one.

 

[Paws]

For what it's worth, I have heard that the SOCIAL WORK licensing exam is a killer and that most people will fail it several times. You might think that it would be a fluff, but oh no - even really smart people flunk it right out. You need a seventy to pass, and a 67 three times in a row will not suffice.

😱

 

[fun8stuff]

I can only compare b/w step 1 and step 2.
So, I think that step 1 was harder, it was just really boring crap that is useless and hard to study for.

Step 2 was longer, but I felt more relevent and wasn't as painful.

But, ~90% of med students pass step 1 and step 2 the first time around.
The Bar exam fails MANY students from what I hear, hopefully someone else knows the numbers, so that may be the hardest one.

Could it be that there are more law schools that are easier to get into than med schools and that the majority of people that fail the bar are from these lower caliber law schools? So, it's just that med students (on average) are better students.

 

[CaptainJack02]

Could it be that there are more law schools that are easier to get into than med schools and that the majority of people that fail the bar are from these lower caliber law schools? So, it's just that med students (on average) are better students.

snob!

j/k 🙂 actually, i second adding the PE in there. they let you bring as many ref. books as you want, you have to be RECOMMENDED to take that exam, and it's got a very formidable fail rate. plus, it's engineering stuff, so it's inherently harder, conceptually, than the steps.

 

[CeLo]

My boyfriend took the CPA test last spring. That is a VERY hard test and I think something like 2/3 or more of the people that take it fail the first time, and many have to take it 3x or more. Some people never pass it and have to find a new job. To pass one of the four parts you need a 75%. They instituted a new rule that if you fail 2 or more parts, you have to take THE WHOLE THING OVER AGAIN, even the parts you did pass. You can fail 1 and pass 3 and just take the one over again. But, it's all relative to what your interests and educational background are, I guess. For me, anything to do with engineering would be hard because I suck at math!

 

[Amicus]

One thing worth taking into account is the consequences of poor preformance on an exam. What does the failure rate tell you about how much you should fear an exam? If there are no consequences for failing exam, other than having to retake it, the failure rate isnt that big of a deal. With the boards, while you can retake and still become a doctor, if you fail once you have severely limited your options in the match. I dont think (have no idea) that is true with the bar. You can do whatever you want once you pass. So if you took the same guy and he failed the bar twice and the boards passed on his first try does that make the boards easier? It depends on how you look at it. I would take the exam that is easier to fail but without consequences anyday.

 

[automaton]

I can only compare b/w step 1 and step 2.
So, I think that step 1 was harder, it was just really boring crap that is useless and hard to study for.

Step 2 was longer, but I felt more relevent and wasn't as painful.

But, ~90% of med students pass step 1 and step 2 the first time around.
The Bar exam fails MANY students from what I hear, hopefully someone else knows the numbers, so that may be the hardest one.

keep in mind that there are about a million law schools and many many many of them are unaccredited TTT diploma factories. how many law students are there in the country vs. med students? i bet that the passing rate for the top 150 schools are probably above 80%, with the bulk of the failures coming from those TTT i mentioned.

 

[Lebesgue]

I would guess the hardest test is when you first learn to walk... I am watching our one year old and he must fall 200 times a day getting it down. I suppose that's why they're padded.

From there it's all cake, MCAT, USMLE, Bar exam, etc...

I think something more difficult than those would be getting a PhD in particle phyiscs or pure math. That is a whole other level of abstract thought.

Of course the only people who can really speak to it are those who have done it all. I think most people want to say what they do is more difficult or selective than what other people do.

😀

 

[phx123]

I don't know about the other tests but the CPA exam was very difficult. It took about six months of studying. There are 4 parts and 15.5 hours of testing broken in to four sections in two days. When I took it you had to pass two parts and score 50% on two in order to just retake the two parts you didn't pass. Now you can test each part individually. I think that would be easier. It's a massive amount of information to memorize and learn. Financial accounting rules, auditing rules, business law, govt accounting, nonprofit accounting, and income tax. The pass rate is less than 20% for first time takers. I know plenty of people that took it three or four times and quit taking it.

 

[phospho]

I don't know about the other tests but the CPA exam was very difficult. It took about six months of studying. There are 4 parts and 15.5 hours of testing broken in to four sections in two days. When I took it you had to pass two parts and score 50% on two in order to just retake the two parts you didn't pass. Now you can test each part individually. I think that would be easier. It's a massive amount of information to memorize and learn. Financial accounting rules, auditing rules, business law, govt accounting, nonprofit accounting, and income tax. The pass rate is less than 20% for first time takers. I know plenty of people that took it three or four times and quit taking it.

you do realize you're getting excited about a 6 year old thread, correct?

 

[Law2Doc]

you do realize you're getting excited about a 6 year old thread, correct?

It's an old thread but a lot of inaccuracies, so I will address them.

IMHO, Step 1 required more studying than Step 2. As for the bar exam, it was not per se more difficult, just for many, more grueling. Many states have a two day exam, half multiple choice, half essay, which is a bit more of a marathon than the first two steps. (Step 3 is also 2 days). As for consequences of failing, the above poster was simply wrong that you can simply retake the bar exam without consequences. You find out the scores in November, about a month after most start working. Many firms will release you, or give you one more chance, if you fail. So you can go from a nice salaried job to the street very quickly with a fail. For one of the Steps, it hurts you to fail in terms of competitive paths, but you don't actually lose a job, you just become a bit less competitive for some fields.

As many as 30-35% fail each bar exam (it's a state by state determination). Perhaps some of that has to do with the less competitive grouping coming out of law school, but most has to do with the fact that unlike med school, where the med school admissions acts as the gatekeeper of the profession, in law the bar serves that role. So while med schools screen out 50% of applicants and then 90% of those who get in become doctors, in law the percentages are reversed (90% get in somewhere but between attrition and bar failures, only about half become lawyers). Most people who want to go to law school can get in somewhere, but about a third will never become licensed to work in that field. So that's a far more drastic repercussion of the bar exam than any Step. Which for some makes it harder -- you aren't just playing for a specialty, you are playing for a career.

 

[Instatewaiter]

It's an old thread but a lot of inaccuracies, so I will address them.

IMHO, Step 1 required more studying than Step 2. As for the bar exam, it was not per se more difficult, just for many, more grueling. Many states have a two day exam, half multiple choice, half essay, which is a bit more of a marathon than the first two steps. (Step 3 is also 2 days). As for consequences of failing, the above poster was simply wrong that you can simply retake the bar exam without consequences. You find out the scores in November, about a month after most start working. Many firms will release you, or give you one more chance, if you fail. So you can go from a nice salaried job to the street very quickly with a fail. For one of the Steps, it hurts you to fail in terms of competitive paths, but you don't actually lose a job, you just become a bit less competitive for some fields.

As many as 30-35% fail each bar exam (it's a state by state determination). Perhaps some of that has to do with the less competitive grouping coming out of law school, but most has to do with the fact that unlike med school, where the med school admissions acts as the gatekeeper of the profession, in law the bar serves that role. So while med schools screen out 50% of applicants and then 90% of those who get in become doctors, in law the percentages are reversed (90% get in somewhere but between attrition and bar failures, only about half become lawyers). Most people who want to go to law school can get in somewhere, but about a third will never become licensed to work in that field. So that's a far more drastic repercussion of the bar exam than any Step. Which for some makes it harder -- you aren't just playing for a specialty, you are playing for a career.

I've seen my wife study for the bar in a few states now and I have taken step 1 and 2.

I agree step 1 requires much, much more studying (compared to step2) and almost every passes both steps. Most people literally take months to study for the bar. Step one most people take ~1 mo (in my experience)

The bar, depending on where you take it can have up to a 50% FAIL rate. That's pretty severe. Even in the easiest states it has >10% fail rate. I think the average fail rate for the USMLE is about 5%.

The two are also different bests. The steps are multiple choice. The bar is a mix of multiple choice and essays. I know in the state we came from it was one full day of MCQs and one full day of essays. I don't know about you all but that kind of exam would be a killer for me.

 

[allover]

you do realize you're getting excited about a 6 year old thread, correct?

pfff. time is an illusion. it's always now, the only thing that changes are the circumstances. 🙂

 

[Go Ducks]

One negative for the bar: if you move to a different state, you have to re-take the bar (the bar differs somewhat from state to state) before you can resume practicing.

That doesn't make the bar any harder, but it does make the process a lot crappier--especially if you move years after law school (according to a lawyer I know, most people don't use much of the info they learned in law school once they start practicing. They pretty much forget it all).

 

[phospho]

It's an old thread but a lot of inaccuracies, so I will address them.

IMHO, Step 1 required more studying than Step 2. As for the bar exam, it was not per se more difficult, just for many, more grueling. Many states have a two day exam, half multiple choice, half essay, which is a bit more of a marathon than the first two steps. (Step 3 is also 2 days). As for consequences of failing, the above poster was simply wrong that you can simply retake the bar exam without consequences. You find out the scores in November, about a month after most start working. Many firms will release you, or give you one more chance, if you fail. So you can go from a nice salaried job to the street very quickly with a fail. For one of the Steps, it hurts you to fail in terms of competitive paths, but you don't actually lose a job, you just become a bit less competitive for some fields.

As many as 30-35% fail each bar exam (it's a state by state determination). Perhaps some of that has to do with the less competitive grouping coming out of law school, but most has to do with the fact that unlike med school, where the med school admissions acts as the gatekeeper of the profession, in law the bar serves that role. So while med schools screen out 50% of applicants and then 90% of those who get in become doctors, in law the percentages are reversed (90% get in somewhere but between attrition and bar failures, only about half become lawyers). Most people who want to go to law school can get in somewhere, but about a third will never become licensed to work in that field. So that's a far more drastic repercussion of the bar exam than any Step. Which for some makes it harder -- you aren't just playing for a specialty, you are playing for a career.

That's pretty crazy man. I feel bad for bitching about my student loans now. At least I know I will have a good chance to pay them off. But law students have a very real chance of not having a career, and not being able to pay their student loans back 😱

 

[slowbutsteady]

IMHO, the bar exam was harder STEP 1.

Ed

Bar exam maybe harder, but so different.

1. All you need to do is pass.

2. No huge deal if you fail, just take it again (and again).

I have some classmates who failed the Step I and have had their rotations suspended and will take it again in 6 weeks. Totally brutal and terrifying.

Oh, and if you can't pass the bar (eventually) you are an idiot and should not be allowed to practice law.